If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Froch,

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

[Gandalf]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

See it IS that cut and dry. WHY? Because while Floyd and Shane were fighting three round fights with headgear against other teenagers? Manny was defeating MEN in 12 round fights and winning a legitimate, lineal world championship! Sasakul was 27-28 that night by the way.

The only way to properly guage a fighter is by being the lightest he could be and still perform well. Why do you think Greb is always referred to as a middle despite dominating a generation of light heavies and often fighting around 165? Because he could always make 160 and defeat top guys (see his 158 weight to beat Mickey Walker). Manny is THE ONLY ranked welter in the world today who weighs in under the limit and fights almost right at it. EVERYONE else fights at 154 or above, in other words, as middleweights. BEING at welter and CHOOSING to fight them are two different things.

The measure that REALLY tells is the fight night weight. Manny and JMM are basically the same size.

Now I'd LOVE to see Manny go through the hassle of dehydrating to make 135 and rehydrate and take a crack at the lineal 135 title. But it seems it won't happen.

[generalbulldog]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

See it IS that cut and dry. WHY? Because while Floyd and Shane were fighting three round fights with headgear against other teenagers? Manny was defeating MEN in 12 round fights and winning a legitimate, lineal world championship! Sasakul was 27-28 that night by the way.

The only way to properly guage a fighter is by being the lightest he could be and still perform well. Why do you think Greb is always referred to as a middle despite dominating a generation of light heavies and often fighting around 165? Because he could always make 160 and defeat top guys (see his 158 weight to beat Mickey Walker). Manny is THE ONLY ranked welter in the world today who weighs in under the limit and fights almost right at it. EVERYONE else fights at 154 or above, in other words, as middleweights. BEING at welter and CHOOSING to fight them are two different things.

The measure that REALLY tells is the fight night weight. Manny and JMM are basically the same size.

Now I'd LOVE to see Manny go through the hassle of dehydrating to make 135 and rehydrate and take a crack at the lineal 135 title. But it seems it won't happen.

Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.

[JazMerkin]

Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.

Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.

I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).

[generalbulldog]

Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.

Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.

I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).

I can't comment on the amateur level because I know next to nothing about it, so it's not my place.

I commented on that even though Pac was not a grown man and I understand that looking at it from other points of views it may not be impressive moving up the weights, but Pac was still fighting grown men as a developing teen and managed to become a lineal champ at 19, only Marbleheadedmaui brought that up and I agree with him. So in no way was I dissing Amateurs, but on the other hand I also commented that even though the lower weight divisions had more weight classes and separated by 3 or 4 pounds it's not some easy task fighting at one division to another like it's some cakewalk and a guy can just go through those weight divisions like a hot knife through butter. Ricardo Lopez fought at 105 and 108, if it was easy he would have won alphabet titles and lineal titles all the way up to say 118 right? I mean it's only 13 pounds going from 105 to 118! So why didn't he fight all way up to bantamweight? Because it's not easy and these little fighters are physically different than higher weight fighters like say a 140 pound fighter going to 147. But some guy here on the previous page and it wasn't you, made it sound easy and insignificant with "hey these lower weights are separated by 3 or 4 pounds only!" Just some funny stuff and guy commented that he was an amateur boxer with serious knowledge on the fight game, but yet he's dissing the lower weights and Pac's acheivements.

[JazMerkin]

I can't comment on the amateur level because I know next to nothing about it, so it's not my place.

I commented on that even though Pac was not a grown man and I understand that looking at it from other points of views it may not be impressive moving up the weights, but Pac was still fighting grown men as a developing teen and managed to become a lineal champ at 19, only Marbleheadedmaui brought that up and I agree with him. So in no way was I dissing Amateurs, but on the other hand I also commented that even though the lower weight divisions had more weight classes and separated by 3 or 4 pounds it's not some easy task fighting at one division to another like it's some cakewalk and a guy can just go through those weight divisions like a hot knife through butter. Ricardo Lopez fought at 105 and 108, if it was easy he would have won alphabet titles and lineal titles all the way up to say 118 right? I mean it's only 13 pounds going from 105 to 118! So why didn't he fight all way up to bantamweight? Because it's not easy and these little fighters are physically different than higher weight fighters like say a 140 pound fighter going to 147. But some guy here on the previous page and it wasn't you, made it sound easy and insignificant with "hey these lower weights are separated by 3 or 4 pounds only!" Just some funny stuff and guy commented that he was an amateur boxer with serious knowledge on the fight game, but yet he's dissing the lower weights and Pac's acheivements.

I see his point however, I don't think it was in context of someone like Lopez who was very small, more guys like Pacquiao & Donaire who are 'bigger' than those weights and growing through them. Obviously those limits are there for a reason because they represent percentages of body weight. Blegit in my experience knows a lot about the sport & although he hasn't said so, I believe he competed to a pretty high level as an amateur. I still agree winning a lineal title at just 19 (not to mention he's the only fighter in history with 4 of them) is a hell of an achievement & I think a lot of fans don't realize how good Sasakul was.

My point regarding the amateurs is that they would have been fighting grown men as teens. Any amateur will have to fight grown men & that's still what it is, a fight. It's another reason that many great prospects look to burn out early because there's plenty of wear & tear from the amateurs. A guy like Jerry Page is a perfect example of this.

[marbleheadmaui]

Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.

Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.

I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).

Nice post!

Fair point on high level amateurs facing grown men. But they are doing so while wearing headgear, with far more protective referees and only for 8-9 minutes (depending on what era we are talking about). So they do not face a huge number of the challenges pros do. Fighting while hurt, fighting while really exhausted, and it is impossible in 8-9 minutes of fighting to have to deal with the same number of adjustments as one will face over 30-36 minutes of fighting. Staying disciplined and focuised for that far longer period is enormously different. It just isn't the same thing. The difference between amateur and pro boxing are at least as big as the difference between college and pro football or Triple A Baseball and the Majore Leagues.

That is not to deny amateur accomplishments (I help out training them from time to time), it is merely to note the differences.

[JazMerkin]

Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.

I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).

Nice post!

Fair point on high level amateurs facing grown men. But they are doing so while wearing headgear, with far more protective referees and only for 8-9 minutes (depending on what era we are talking about). So they do not face a huge number of the challenges pros do. Fighting while hurt, fighting while really exhausted, and it is impossible in 8-9 minutes of fighting to have to deal with the same number of adjustments as one will face over 30-36 minutes of fighting. Staying disciplined and focuised for that far longer period is enormously different. It just isn't the same thing. The difference between amateur and pro boxing are at least as big as the difference between college and pro football or Triple A Baseball and the Majore Leagues.

That is not to deny amateur accomplishments (I help out training them from time to time), it is merely to note the differences.

I agree on the referees & the timing, although amateur bouts are generally fought at a quicker pace because of that time difference. Where I disagree is headgear as to my mind it makes no difference to the force of a blow & I find it inhibits my head movement as this is a game of inches & it adds a little. Although at least it does prevent your face getting smashed up by headclashes. I also disagree on having to fight when hurt, if anything I believe this is where many top pros first have to learn to do this. It was a point Richardson made before the Mayweather-Mosley fight that he'd seen Floyd hit hard in the ams & that's when as he called it 'the dragon comes out'.

What I'd argue is that being a top amateur is equivalent to the early fights in any pro fighter's career assuming they're matched against guys with in or around .500 records. I think that until Chokchai, Pacquiao hadn't faced anyone who should have been remotely a threat given his amateur record & natural gifts (ignoring Torrecampo obviously). I suppose my point is that you may well face better opponents as an amateur than you will early in your pro career.

[captainanddew]

someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.

Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds

Which one looks out of place? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)

Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145

I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.

[JazMerkin]

someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.

Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds

Which one looks out of place? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)

Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145

I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.

Well, what he does is that he weighs in at about 144-145 lbs for his fights. That's above the Light-Welter limit so he's a welterweight. His height or build has little to do with it. You've used fight night weights, but you've left out Mayweather who, according to Ring Magazine's July/August 2010 issue, came into the fight against Mosely at 149 lbs. Does that mean he's not a welterweight?

I believe Manny could make 140, but I doubt he makes 135 again, especially the amount of muscle mass he's put on. In fact, doesn't it show something when the 'biggest' of the guys you've posted is the one who has just moved up from 140 lbs. If Ortiz fought Clottey would you argue that the Ghanaian is just beating up on a bigger guy?

[captainanddew]

someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.

Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds

Which one looks out of place? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)

Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145

I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.

Well, what he does is that he weighs in at about 144-145 lbs for his fights. That's above the Light-Welter limit so he's a welterweight. His height or build has little to do with it. You've used fight night weights, but you've left out Mayweather who, according to Ring Magazine's July/August 2010 issue, came into the fight against Mosely at 149 lbs. Does that mean he's not a welterweight?

I believe Manny could make 140, but I doubt he makes 135 again, especially the amount of muscle mass he's put on. In fact, doesn't it show something when the 'biggest' of the guys you've posted is the one who has just moved up from 140 lbs. If Ortiz fought Clottey would you argue that the Ghanaian is just beating up on a bigger guy?

what muscle mass? He's only 3 pounds bigger when he walks in the ring!!!

[Mr140]

Well Mayweather comes in at 149 t0 150 fight night so how come he has to fight a cruiser weight. I mean i dont even like Mayweather but shit such a double standard its just in insane.

[marbleheadmaui]

Well Mayweather comes in at 149 t0 150 fight night so how come he has to fight a cruiser weight. I mean i dont even like Mayweather but shit such a double standard its just in insane.

Except Mayweather doesn't come in at that weight. Hell he violated his contract with JMM and wouldn't even try to make 144 the day before the fight.

The Math is pretty straightforward. Manny has fought across ten divisions. Floyd began as a 130. Ten divisions would be 130, 135, 140, 147, 154, 160, 168, 175 (that's only eight).

Try it another way. Manny has fought up 39% from his initial weight. 39% from 129 (Floyd's lowest) would be 179.