Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
Quote Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
Even if the current amateur system is flawed it surely can't be detrimental to pro fighters?

How many "great" pros had no amateur success? I am not sure about this, but would be shocked if there were many great fighters with limited amateur experience. I Know about guys like Moore and Chavez with next to nothing amateur careers. But they ended up with a million pro fights.

Having a quick look at todays P4P top ten, only Pongsaklek Wonjongkam has no amateur record (i can find), but has reached 82 pro bouts. Everyone else was a successful amateur. Even guys like Pac and Marquez that turned pro as teenagers.

So.. amateur experience surely plays a major role in the progress of pro fighters? Still even today...
For starters every great fighter pre say 1920 had no real amateur background. But we may be mixing two different concepts up. If you're saying almost all great fighters started young in the gym? I completely agree. If you are saying amateur success or vast amateur experience is critical? I can cite lots of examples where it wasn't. JCC, Dick Tiger, Archie Moore, Roberto Duran had I think 15 amateur fights, Jimmy McClarnin was a pro at 15 how much could he have done in the ams? Want crazy though? How about Jimmy Wilde being entirely self taught?

I also think it is fair to say that the ams over since 1988 have been as problematic as they have been helpful.
You said that amateur boxing is currently detrimental to pros (arguably). I am saying there is no real evidence of this (from admittedly a brief look). You may believe fighters are technically getting worse, but the actual results/records indicate that the best amateurs will be expected to make the best pros. The training, ring experience and fight environment alone must be considered a huge advantage, no? You strongly argue that more fights means better fighter, right?

I am also raising the idea that fighters with next to no amateur experience will be matched more frequently as pros, because they have a lot of catching up to do. I don't have any real evidence of this, just a guess.

For instance - In Chavez's first 18 months as a pro he fought 18 times before being matched with a fighter that had more than 10 wins on his record. And he was a journeyman coming off a string of losses. He needed to learn against a load of "gimmes."

How many former amatuer champions have been matched so carefully? (i'm sure you'll give me a massive list )
There has been, in the last 15 years, a tremendous decline in the skill and craft levels displayed at the pro level in my view. The top of the sport has also never, ever been older. Now either the raw material stinks or the teaching has fallen apart or WHAT is being taught has changed (or some combo). I find the timing of the early 1990's amateur rule changes very interesting in this regard.

You are assuming amateur fights equal pro fights. I dispute that. More amateur fights will make a better amateur fighter. More pro fights will make a better pro fighter. Given the evidence of the last decade and a half? It isn't clear to me at all that more amateur fights make a better pro fighter. Look at the recent Cubans, specifically Gamboa. Look at how completely he had to remake himself at the pro level. Now let's do a thought experiment. Gamboa turns pro at 21 instead of 26. Today he'd have 40+ fights instead of twenty and he would have remade himself five years ago instead of 18 months ago. Who in your view would be the superior fighter?

If amateur fights, even in the old days with regular judging and no headgear, were the same as pro fights? Top amateurs would all have started in the pro's the way Kostya Tszyu did instead of him being a huge exception to how fighters have always been brought along.

You wrote this and I don't really understand the point (sorry)

I am also raising the idea that fighters with next to no amateur experience will be matched more frequently as pros, because they have a lot of catching up to do. I don't have any real evidence of this, just a guess.

But as to how many former amateur champions have been matched so carefully? Up until about 1995 the answer would have been not that many. Laszlo Papp, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Howard Davis, Michael Spinks, Roy Jones etc. sure weren't. But again, all those guys pre-date the 1990-ish rule changes.

In this era of "gotta be unbeaten" instead of "gotta be developed?"

Deontay Wilder still hasn't fought anyone, and I see propsects fighting every week against palookas just to pad records rather than test and develop them. It baffles me. But I think there is a point I am missing here somehow (help?)