Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[JazMerkin]

One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.

[The Congressman]

Great post Bilbo. Great posts. Truly, what a remarkable Pac is having.

[Kev]

One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.

Although ultimtely I think the belt is irelevent anyway I still disagree with your perspective.

You do realise the weight limits in boxing are the maximum weights right, i.e a fighter cannot weigh MORE than 147 if he wants to fight for the title.

But what about the minimum weight? Do you even know what the minimum weight limit is to fight for a 147 lb title? Is there even a minimum weight limit?

As I understand it any weight above the 140 lb weight limit is accetable, and so if a fighter chose to weigh in at 143 lb for a 147 lb fight he is free to do so, it is his RIGHT.

So if Cotto and Manny agree to weigh 145 and the minium weight limit for the welterweight title fight to be on the line is 140 then how is is not a title fight?

Should Cotto have lost his title to Clottey at the weigh in because he didn't make 147 and weighed in a pound less? Had he weighed in at 145 against Clottey should the title have been vacated?

No of course not, it's an absurd idea, Cotto can choose to weigh in at what he likes providing he weighs between the minimum and maximum weight limits for that weight class, as can Manny.

So it's still a world title fight, and a damn good one.

[JazMerkin]

One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.

Although ultimtely I think the belt is irelevent anyway I still disagree with your perspective.

You do realise the weight limits in boxing are the maximum weights right, i.e a fighter cannot weigh MORE than 147 if he wants to fight for the title.

But what about the minimum weight? Do you even know what the minimum weight limit is to fight for a 147 lb title? Is there even a minimum weight limit?

As I understand it any weight above the 140 lb weight limit is accetable, and so if a fighter chose to weigh in at 143 lb for a 147 lb fight he is free to do so, it is his RIGHT.

So if Cotto and Manny agree to weigh 145 and the minium weight limit for the welterweight title fight to be on the line is 140 then how is is not a title fight?

Should Cotto have lost his title to Clottey at the weigh in because he didn't make 147 and weighed in a pound less? Had he weighed in at 145 against Clottey should the title have been vacated?

No of course not, it's an absurd idea, Cotto can choose to weigh in at what he likes providing he weighs between the minimum and maximum weight limits for that weight class, as can Manny.

So it's still a world title fight, and a damn good one.

I never suggested a fighter had to weigh in at a particular weight, but the weight divisions should not have limitations put on them. Cotto can weigh in at 145, however he should have the option of weighing as much as that weight division allows. That bolded sentence illustrates my point. If Cotto weighs in at 145 fine, however, there shouldn't be some limitation that he cannot weight more than that. If a pound or 2 is no big deal than why should it matter?

[AdamGB]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.

And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.

The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.

My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.

I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.

[The Congressman]

Pacquiao-Cotto might not happen afterall. Latest word in pacland is team pac are now eyeing Mosley.

[Kev]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.

And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.

The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.

My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.

I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.

So doesn't this one pound is significant work both ways? Why should Manny keep moving up and fighting the best guys in their weight class with them having all the advantage?

Hasn't he already moved up like 20 lbs? If a single pound counts so much and Manny has moved through 8 weight classes then cut him some slack.

The point you guys are missing is this.

What Manny is attempting to acomplish has NEVER EVER been acomplished before.

NO fighter EVER has EVER moved through 8 weight classes and then fought and defeated the BEST opponent in that weight class.

De La Hoya never managed it, he moved through less weight classes and his big fight against Hopkins (also forcing Hop to fight at catchweight he got knocked out).

Duran, Leonard, Hearns never did it, Roy Jones Jr never did (he fought a terrible belt holder not even close to the best at heavyweight).

If Manny beats Cotto or Mosely it is one hell of a feat, considering he's a guy who was once at flyweight. Whether Cotto weighs in at 147 lbs or 145 lbs is simply not the issue.

[Mr140]

Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.

[LEGION]

One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.

Although ultimtely I think the belt is irelevent anyway I still disagree with your perspective.

You do realise the weight limits in boxing are the maximum weights right, i.e a fighter cannot weigh MORE than 147 if he wants to fight for the title.

But what about the minimum weight? Do you even know what the minimum weight limit is to fight for a 147 lb title? Is there even a minimum weight limit?

As I understand it any weight above the 140 lb weight limit is accetable, and so if a fighter chose to weigh in at 143 lb for a 147 lb fight he is free to do so, it is his RIGHT.

So if Cotto and Manny agree to weigh 145 and the minium weight limit for the welterweight title fight to be on the line is 140 then how is is not a title fight?

Should Cotto have lost his title to Clottey at the weigh in because he didn't make 147 and weighed in a pound less? Had he weighed in at 145 against Clottey should the title have been vacated?

No of course not, it's an absurd idea, Cotto can choose to weigh in at what he likes providing he weighs between the minimum and maximum weight limits for that weight class, as can Manny.

So it's still a world title fight, and a damn good one.

It's a good argument Bilbo. But why a catchweight? You yourself said 140-147 is the limit of the WW division, and Cotto can choose to weigh whatever he desires within the minimum and maximum of that weight class. He is required to weigh in at 147, but if he is more comfortable coming in at 145-146 then no penalty; as there shouldn't be because obviously he has 7 pounds to play with in his division to find his best weight. But he shouldn't be asked to compromise in a division where he has shown several times he likes coming in at 147{not 145 or 143} and adding a couple before the fight. That's why there is the gap in weight classes, so a fighter can have some liberty to make the best comfortable weight for him in that class; and also not have 200 divisions floating around As long as Cotto makes the minimum requirements of the sanctioning bodies then another fighter trying to make a dent in that division has no right to ask for more concessions. He wants the bragging rights, but doesn't want to play by the rules, and wants to dictate how a guy in a heavier class should concede to his demands. Might as well throw all the weight classes out and have a free for all like old UFC days.

140-147.... Pac is basically saying he can make the WW limits by asking for 145; so that's that IMO. STFU about making Cotto come down; you're in that divisions weight limits, you play by the rules. If Pac wants and can make 145 or even 143 then that's the weight he should come in at; a weight right in the middle of that weight class. Why the stipulation then? To stretch Cotto out is why, if possible; and to me that doesn't make it a great fight. It's underhanded to me. To me; especially if it's only about $$$; then Pac shouldn't even care and just say alright; I'll come in at 143-45 and Cotto his 147 and we'll fight. It's not only about $$$; Pac wants to go down and have people say he was one of the greatest ever, and "look I went from Flea-weight to Welter Weight" and am one of the best ever.

I just don't like it Bilbo. Does Pac have a right to ask? I guess he does; no harm in asking, especially with all that's on the line. I just think it's trying to cheat in a more dignified sounding way. With that said; I'd love to see the fight. And I thought it was funny Oscar took the bait and he got mauled. If Cotto takes it and concedes to 145 than that's on him. I think he'll have hell with Pac at 147 anyways. 2 pounds is alot even if it doesn't drain him in some way; that's 2 pounds less flesh to absorb those machine gun like bullets Pac is winging. Pac looked like a WW against Hatton he was so thick. If Cotto feels the effects of those extra 2 pounds and loses, then he'll have to live with it the rest of his rich life. And when he's sitting in his rocking chair, sipping mojitos, he might regret that. $$$ doesn't follow you to the grave but legacy does. I desperately want to see the fight; I just don't like it. If Pac could not make more than 139 and said "hey guys, I can't do it; will Cotto come down for a catchweight and we'll make some $$$ and go at it", I could understand. There is no catchweight because Pac says he can fight in the WW's weight limits; it's ludicrous to me.

I don't know why I bothered; Bilbo will come in and shoot a Cruise Missile into my post and I've wasted brain cells that I couldn't afford to lose anyways My head hurts now. I'm going to tell Bilbo to fukk off right now; it will save time later

[Kev]

Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.

Well if you believe all that all I can say is that you don't understand either boxing very well or basic human body mechanics.

There is a certain critical mass in boxing beyond which weight alone doesn't contribute as much because it comes at the expense of something else, usually speed and mobility.

A 147 lb, even a 168 lb man can be frighteningly fast and athletic. When you get to heavyweight however pure weight alone isn't an advantage, and in fact can even be a disadvantage.

If it were a wrestling contest where an opponent could make good use of that extra weight it would matter but above say 215 lbs, in a boxing sense, weight and size comes at the expense of size and speed.

Look at the animal kingdom, Lions and tigers (and in the past dinosaurs) can routinely take down and prey upon creatures much larger than themselves because their increased weight and size doesn't help them. It just makes them slow and ponderous. A lions superior mobility, it's powerful claws and body movements can see it easily bring down a wildebeast.

Leopards and cheetas also can bring down gazelles that outweigh them.

But a leopard would be hopeless against a lion because it's too small. The lion is bigger but not too big for its speed and mobility to be compromised. The fact that lions also have fearsome weapons can be an analogy also here in that it can represent talent and skill, punch power etc in boxers.

Roy Jones in moving up to fight John Ruiz was basically a leopard taking on a wildebeast. Ruiz was bigger but had literally NOTHING else in his favour whatsoever.

Manny meanwhile is moving up to face a bigger cat. It's like a cheetah vs a leopard a MUCH MUCH tougher fight.

I don't know if you're getting this but really I can't understand how little understanding some people have regarding this.

Above a certain weight, excess weight matters very little because boxing is not about bodyweight, it's about speed, power, strength, height and reach, skill, athleticism etc. Simple mass isn't a huge factor.

Manny is facing a bigger guy who will have a big advantage in natural power and strength, and is also evenly matched in skill, and not far behind in speed.

Ruiz was inferior to Roy Jones in every aspect other than size. Although a good win there is no real reason to believe Jones feat could not have been acomplished by many other fighters. I'm sure other former middleweights in Bernard Hopkins and Joe Calzaghe would be fancied to beat him, James Toney whupped his ass too.

But can you name a single other former flyweight in history who has moved up to welterweight to face the BEST man there (not a paper champ bum like Ruiz)?

No you simply cannot, and that is why its such a great feat.

Make no mistake a win for Manny over Cotto, were he to pull it off sees him join the ranks of Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard and Henry Armstrong as one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

[mnmc10]

adamGb i think your talking to a wall, pacfans/huggers are banned already. i think im the only one left here. and i NEVER mentioned that its easy to lose a pound or two. my only argument about catchweights is that pac is a small guy and only bigger guys are left for him to fight, pac is already pushing it at 140.

mosley is somewhat connected to pac thats why he is saying that its difficult for him. oscar lost all that weight cause he think he will beat pac to a pulp. and the technic he used to lose all that weight is the real cause why he got so weak. he was on the target weight weeks before the weigh in, they figured that odlh will have more time to adjust to his lower weight.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

I also like how your source for this article was Shane Mosely, who proved beyond doubt it WAS possible to move down not a couple pounds but SEVEN in his late thirties and still become the welterweight king.

Anyway by your logic Cotto only beat Mosely because it was at 'catchweight'.

This is what makes me laugh. Oscar drops to 147 to fight Manny coming up from 135 and it's a 'catchweight' fight.


Mosely also drops to 147, just like Oscar, with the same number fights, same age, same battle scars, and fights Cotto and NOBODY talks about Mosely giving up weight at all. It's ok, because he looked good.

If Oscar fucked up his training and couldn't make the drop shame on Oscar.

It has NO bearing on a potential Pacquaio vs Cotto fight.

Manny vs Cotto is one of the best possible fights that can be made in all of boxing right now, yet you all continue to try and put obstacle in the way of it.

Look, they are both elite world class p4p fighters, yet Cotto is much bigger. Therefore under normal circumstances we don't get a fight. If a catchweight allows us to witness this great boxing event I'm all for it.

Would you scoff also at the idea of a Mayweather vs Paul Williams fight at 157 lbs? Would you moan about Floyd dragging Paul down 3 lbs from 160?

Of course not (well maybe you would) it would be a great fight and Floyd would be showing some serious balls to move up and fight the much bigger man.

You all have one rule for Manny and another for everybody else.

I would absolutely 'scoff' at all those suggestions. Expect Williams comming down a few cause he could do 154 no problem.

Look. IMO catchweights are faggoty. Weight classes are there for a reason and its far more healthy to put on a few pounds than to loose a few.

Therefore, if a fight is to be made. Or more specifically, if Pacquiao wants to fight Welterweights, he should fight at welterweight.

I know there has been examples of Cathcweights along the past 20 years but none of them have been of any real consequence or for the betterment of Boxing.

Catchweight is a negotiation or in essence a demand. How long will it be before these demands are made by less than elliete fighters. Soon everyone will be demanding that fights are made at riddiculously random numbers. Its Unmanly, i said it beofre and i'll keep saying it...

Catchweights are gay and detrimental to the sport of Boxing.

[Mr140]

Roy jones jr win maybe but Evander Holyfeilds wins over Bowie and even Foreman to me would be more impressive then Cotto win and way more impressive then a Oscar Dela Hoya win. Because those were skilled and strong fighters who had a good 20 to 30 pounds over Evander Holyfeild.

[JT Rock]

Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.

Well if you believe all that all I can say is that you don't understand either boxing very well or basic human body mechanics.

There is a certain critical mass in boxing beyond which weight alone doesn't contribute as much because it comes at the expense of something else, usually speed and mobility.

A 147 lb, even a 168 lb man can be frighteningly fast and athletic. When you get to heavyweight however pure weight alone isn't an advantage, and in fact can even be a disadvantage.

If it were a wrestling contest where an opponent could make good use of that extra weight it would matter but above say 215 lbs, in a boxing sense, weight and size comes at the expense of size and speed.

Look at the animal kingdom, Lions and tigers (and in the past dinosaurs) can routinely take down and prey upon creatures much larger than themselves because their increased weight and size doesn't help them. It just makes them slow and ponderous. A lions superior mobility, it's powerful claws and body movements can see it easily bring down a wildebeast.

Leopards and cheetas also can bring down gazelles that outweigh them.

But a leopard would be hopeless against a lion because it's too small. The lion is bigger but not too big for its speed and mobility to be compromised. The fact that lions also have fearsome weapons can be an analogy also here in that it can represent talent and skill, punch power etc in boxers.

Roy Jones in moving up to fight John Ruiz was basically a leopard taking on a wildebeast. Ruiz was bigger but had literally NOTHING else in his favour whatsoever.

Manny meanwhile is moving up to face a bigger cat. It's like a cheetah vs a leopard a MUCH MUCH tougher fight.

I don't know if you're getting this but really I can't understand how little understanding some people have regarding this.

Above a certain weight, excess weight matters very little because boxing is not about bodyweight, it's about speed, power, strength, height and reach, skill, athleticism etc. Simple mass isn't a huge factor.

Manny is facing a bigger guy who will have a big advantage in natural power and strength, and is also evenly matched in skill, and not far behind in speed.

Ruiz was inferior to Roy Jones in every aspect other than size. Although a good win there is no real reason to believe Jones feat could not have been acomplished by many other fighters. I'm sure other former middleweights in Bernard Hopkins and Joe Calzaghe would be fancied to beat him, James Toney whupped his ass too.

But can you name a single other former flyweight in history who has moved up to welterweight to face the BEST man there (not a paper champ bum like Ruiz)?

No you simply cannot, and that is why its such a great feat.

Make no mistake a win for Manny over Cotto, were he to pull it off sees him join the ranks of Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard and Henry Armstrong as one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

I answered this along with a bunch of other posters but you chose to ignore and stay on your soap box even though it was ridiculous...You just went on in an exhaustive manner about dinosaurs and predators of the Serengeti.

You can not deny the fact that at 16 a boy is not a full grown mature man, Pac started boxing at that age weighing in at 106lbs. in 16 years a worldclass athlete with all the money to hire strength and conditioning coaches along with nutritionists coupled with the fact Pac has an athletic frame. 30+ pounds of maturation and training in 16 years is not out of the ordinary. NO WAY AROUND IT

As far as the whole higher the weight slower you are, I suggest you watch David Haye or Wlad Klit who have frightening handspeed and power, or watch an NFL football game and see a 6'4 245lb linebacker chase down a 5'11 200lb running back and run him over like a locomotive

[JazMerkin]

One thing I'm sick of hearing Bilbo is that Pac has gone through 8 divisions beating the best in each division, it's just not true, he's had his share of wildebeest as well.

Flyweight - Sasakul (He was the best in the division)

Super-Bantamweight - Ledwaba (A good fighter, but not the best, that was widely considered to be either Oscar Larios or Agapito Sanchez at that time)

Featherweight - Barrera & JMM (No complaints here, they were the best)

Super-Featherweight - Morales & JMM (Lost to EM, when he was the best, than went after him despite Raheem taking the belt. No shame in that, that's where the money was. Then finally fought JMM to decide the best SFW so no complaints here)

Lightweight - David Diaz (Anyone who tries to argue that Diaz was a credible champion is an idiot. He was at least the equivalent of John Ruiz in what was possibly the best division in the sport at that time, & with the likes of Campbell, Juan Diaz & Casamayor available, he went for a guy weaker than a load of guys challenging for the belt)

Light-Welterweight - Ricky Hatton (The best, much respect to Pac for the manner of this as well)

Welterweight - Assuming it's Cotto (NO, not the best in most people's eyes. Mosley beat the man who beat Cotto, hence becoming the best in the division, the general impression has been that Team Pac want no part of Mosley. Cotto on the other hand doesn't look like the fighter he once was.)

Btw, that's 7 divisions. Just because he fought in another for a few fights when he was a malnourished 16 year old doesn't mean he breezed through it.

I have the utmost respect for Pac & what he's accomplished & I think that list above is still unbelievably impressive. Also as for your point about speed, no way is Cotto comparable in speed, the only guy around that weight class who is, is Mayweather.