Calzaghe-Hagler?

[Taeth]

Thats right, Hagler never moved up and never wanted to, he was quite content to fight others who had the balls to move up and as much of a hard fight that Hagler had with Mugabi im sure Joe wouldnt have struggled.

Hagler plodded forward and wore people down, that wouldnt happen with Joe, especially since Joe would be naturally stronger as well.

First of all, moving up wasn't much of an option for Hagler since 168 didn't exist then and Spinks, a top 5 ATG LHW and a MUCH bigger man, was champion at 175. You've obviously never seen Hagler in his prime, 1978-1981. Hagler was past in by the Mugabi fight, and his style had degenerated at that point. As for his power, he KO'd everybody he defended against except Leonard and Duran.

That being said, Hagler had problems with movers and Calzaghe would present a stylistic problem for Hagler. I might favor Calzaghe in 12 rounds, but if you gave a prime Hagler 15 rounds to pound on Calzaghe, Marvin would break him down eventually.

I don't get your logic why would Hagler be able to break down a guy who gets stronger as the fight progresses? If anything Calzaghe is one of the few champions who would be WAY better if fights were still 15 rounds long.

[Master]

At middleweight Hagler but at super middle Joe but only just. The late 1970's version was an excellent boxer, he later became more of a pressure fighter.

[RozzySean]

Thats right, Hagler never moved up and never wanted to, he was quite content to fight others who had the balls to move up and as much of a hard fight that Hagler had with Mugabi im sure Joe wouldnt have struggled.

Hagler plodded forward and wore people down, that wouldnt happen with Joe, especially since Joe would be naturally stronger as well.

First of all, moving up wasn't much of an option for Hagler since 168 didn't exist then and Spinks, a top 5 ATG LHW and a MUCH bigger man, was champion at 175. You've obviously never seen Hagler in his prime, 1978-1981. Hagler was past in by the Mugabi fight, and his style had degenerated at that point. As for his power, he KO'd everybody he defended against except Leonard and Duran.

That being said, Hagler had problems with movers and Calzaghe would present a stylistic problem for Hagler. I might favor Calzaghe in 12 rounds, but if you gave a prime Hagler 15 rounds to pound on Calzaghe, Marvin would break him down eventually.

I don't get your logic why would Hagler be able to break down a guy who gets stronger as the fight progresses? If anything Calzaghe is one of the few champions who would be WAY better if fights were still 15 rounds long.

I hear you, and it's a good point, but my reasoning is different. Against most fighters, you are right that Calzaghe would be an even better 15 round fighter. He's my thinking, but I could be wrong.

Both Hagler and Calzaghe get stronger as the fight goes on, but Hagler would be putting more punishment on Calzaghe than Calzaghe could put on Hagler. Calzaghe would be able to steal rounds, much like Leonard did, but the cumulative affect would take it's toll eventually. Leonard was a great 15 round fighter, too, but if the fight with Hagler had been 15, Hagler certainly would have stopped him. It was Calzaghe's EARLY lead that carried him through against Reid, and IMHO, if Hagler had hitting Calzaghe like Reid hit Calzaghe, Calzaghe might not have energy for a strong finish.

For the record, and old Joe Calzaghe beats an old Marvin Hagler. Joe aged much better than Marvin. The version of Hagler that fought Leonard and Mugabi would get outboxed by Joe C.

[RozzySean]

Marvin had a great sun as middlweight champ, but i don't think he was a great skilled fighter... some what of a magarito type fighter - his chin allowed him to fight his fight and force the guy onto the back foot and break them down.

When he fought truly skilled fighter like Ray and duran, even though they were MUCH MUCH smaller than him, look at the trouble he had... i mean true great natural middleweight should not get beat by a normal sized Welter, no matter how skilled they are, let alone one who had been so inactive... and duran, best @ lightweight... almost beat marvin...

of course being such a "fan boy" i am going to pick Joe... early on it could be 50/50 if joe fought a bit silly... but even if that was the case, take the kessler fight, he knows how to adapt and fight right, he has always done it so i see no reason for him not to do it if this fictious fight happened...

marvin was pretty easy to work, two steps into every move, good fighters can see it coming and know what he was going, he didn't has a great array of punches either, it was just non stop pressure backed up by that rock solid chin of his.

Stick to Joe Calzaghe you haven't got a clue about Marvin Hagler, do you realize he used to be a skilled counter puncher who used movement ? and that only in the last few years of his career did he fight more aggressively coming forward . And please do not compare Antonio Margarito/Marvin Hagler that is a ridiculous comment. Marvin Hagler even when he was pressuring was a very skilled fighter, who jabbed his way in. Cut off the ring and used a good variety of punches. And Roberto Duran almost beat Marvin Hagler ? stop looking at boxrec and boxing articles and actually watch the fight, its one of the most overrated close fights in history. Marvin Hagler was a clear winner in that fight, and considering Roberto Duran managed to win the Middleweight title off the huge Iran Barkley, i would say he was still very good at Middleweight. And as for SRL he was not a natural Welterweight IMO, and size wise SRL and Marvin Hagler are almost the same size, regarding height and weight, Marvin Hagler was never over the Middleweight limit only a few times, that means he was a natural Middleweight and couldn't move up really any higher. Lastly SRL only took the fight with Marvin Hagler because Marvin Hagler was a shot fighter and he had slowed down alot especially in his brutal war, with John Mugabi. And SRL demanded the bigger ring, the gloves, the ring size, the rounds, as a matter of fact had that fight been 15 rounds like it was scheduled to be at first, until SRL got it changed. SRL would of been stopped 100 percent.

ICB what hell are you talking about? Leonard was about 15 pounds lighter than Hagler come fight night, he looked way smaller, height hardly means size. Also just because a fighter is effective above their natural weight doesn't mean that is their natural weightclass. You also assume we know nothing of Hagler, he was a good boxer, but no way would he have outboxed Calzaghe. They both are underrated in that category, but the speed and height advantage has to play in Calzaghe's favor. Also the Duran-Hagler fight I've seen it probably 10 times, and it was a close fight until the end when Duran gassed out, but he was an old man by then and they had a rough fight, maybe you should be the one to watch the fight, because it was a close fight that Hagler clearly won. Also Leonard hadn't fought in three years in a weightclass he had never been in, Hagler should have clearly won despite the advantages in Leonard's favor, and Hagler was hardly the wreck of a fighter you make him out to be near the end of his career, he was 31 still had most of his speed, its just his level of opposition increased dramatically closer to the end of his career which made him look probably more like the fighter he actually was a tough fighter, with good boxing skills, but first and foremost was a pressure fighter who could punch and take a punch.

Not early Hagler. Young Hagler had great legs and fought off his toes often. Against pressure fighters, he would move backwards and counter, then pressure when he had the advantage. The Duran fight was not his best performance, and Duran is an ATG who fought a tremendous fight. Also, Hagler was a pretty old 31. He had 64 fights under his belt.

[ross]

[Hagler was a pretty old 31. He had 64 fights under his belt.

Going by boxrec he had 61 fights.

Duran was a year older and had 81 fights and this was also his first fight at middle

Hagler is starting to look like Taylor

[RozzySean]

[Hagler was a pretty old 31. He had 64 fights under his belt.

Going by boxrec he had 61 fights.

Duran was a year older and had 81 fights and this was also his first fight at middle

Hagler is starting to look like Taylor

[ross]

It dont matter what anyone says, Duran was older, smaller and had more miles on the clock

[RozzySean]

It dont matter what anyone says, Duran was older, smaller and had more miles on the clock

Duran is still an ATG HoFer who managed to beat Iran Barkley a few years later. This is Roberto Duran we are talking about, one of the greatest fighters to ever put on a pair of gloves. And Hagler beat him clearly, more clearly than Joe beat old 'Nard or for that matter, Robin Reid.

[ross]

Fair play but I for one know that Reid is very underrated and was unfortunate to come at the same time as Joe, Reid had power and a good chin but lacked the fire to beat up the lesser men

Reid was deffo good

Yep Hagler beat him but Hagler also had losses

As yet Joe is unbeaten

Happy new year, its only a boxing forum and unless there is a delorian kicking around any old versus new boxing mythical matches are open for debate so no one will win

[Taeth]

First of all, moving up wasn't much of an option for Hagler since 168 didn't exist then and Spinks, a top 5 ATG LHW and a MUCH bigger man, was champion at 175. You've obviously never seen Hagler in his prime, 1978-1981. Hagler was past in by the Mugabi fight, and his style had degenerated at that point. As for his power, he KO'd everybody he defended against except Leonard and Duran.

That being said, Hagler had problems with movers and Calzaghe would present a stylistic problem for Hagler. I might favor Calzaghe in 12 rounds, but if you gave a prime Hagler 15 rounds to pound on Calzaghe, Marvin would break him down eventually.

I don't get your logic why would Hagler be able to break down a guy who gets stronger as the fight progresses? If anything Calzaghe is one of the few champions who would be WAY better if fights were still 15 rounds long.

I hear you, and it's a good point, but my reasoning is different. Against most fighters, you are right that Calzaghe would be an even better 15 round fighter. He's my thinking, but I could be wrong.

Both Hagler and Calzaghe get stronger as the fight goes on, but Hagler would be putting more punishment on Calzaghe than Calzaghe could put on Hagler. Calzaghe would be able to steal rounds, much like Leonard did, but the cumulative affect would take it's toll eventually. Leonard was a great 15 round fighter, too, but if the fight with Hagler had been 15, Hagler certainly would have stopped him. It was Calzaghe's EARLY lead that carried him through against Reid, and IMHO, if Hagler had hitting Calzaghe like Reid hit Calzaghe, Calzaghe might not have energy for a strong finish.

For the record, and old Joe Calzaghe beats an old Marvin Hagler. Joe aged much better than Marvin. The version of Hagler that fought Leonard and Mugabi would get outboxed by Joe C.

That's valid, I am not sure I would see a younger Hagler putting that type of punishment on Calzaghe though. I think Calzaghe is better now than in his physical prime because he has improved as a boxer, I am not sure Hagler would find it super easy to hit him, I mean both Hopkins and Roy are old, they are still very quick and still amazingly accurate, and even Bernard had some difficulties finding Calzaghe as the night progressed because Joe doesn't slow down.

And like Rozzysean said, I don't think prime Hagler would be so eager to just pressure Calzaghe, and I don't think he is fast enough to catch Calzaghe coming in, consistently. Kessler was able to because he was orthodox, and Bernard was able to because he is an amazing counter puncher, but both gradually landed less, and less punches as Calzaghe maintained or increased the tempo, and got more into a rhythm.

As for Leonard, he hadn't fought in three years, so you can't really use him being good before in 15 round fights as evidence for the Hagler fight, especially against a guy so much bigger (Hagler's head probably weighed as much as Ray). I am looking back at Hagler's record and I honestly see a punch of pylons for him to walk over Minter, Watts, Hamani . I think a lot of what people see of Hagler is him fighting guys WAY worse than him, and if you remember when Foreman came back he was able to dominate guys and outbox them because they were so much below him. The guys on Hagler's list don't rate highly to me, and him not being able to stop Leonard even in 12 rounds or Duran in 15 makes me think HAgler wouldn't be too much for Calzaghe.

[RozzySean]

I don't get your logic why would Hagler be able to break down a guy who gets stronger as the fight progresses? If anything Calzaghe is one of the few champions who would be WAY better if fights were still 15 rounds long.

I hear you, and it's a good point, but my reasoning is different. Against most fighters, you are right that Calzaghe would be an even better 15 round fighter. He's my thinking, but I could be wrong.

Both Hagler and Calzaghe get stronger as the fight goes on, but Hagler would be putting more punishment on Calzaghe than Calzaghe could put on Hagler. Calzaghe would be able to steal rounds, much like Leonard did, but the cumulative affect would take it's toll eventually. Leonard was a great 15 round fighter, too, but if the fight with Hagler had been 15, Hagler certainly would have stopped him. It was Calzaghe's EARLY lead that carried him through against Reid, and IMHO, if Hagler had hitting Calzaghe like Reid hit Calzaghe, Calzaghe might not have energy for a strong finish.

For the record, and old Joe Calzaghe beats an old Marvin Hagler. Joe aged much better than Marvin. The version of Hagler that fought Leonard and Mugabi would get outboxed by Joe C.

That's valid, I am not sure I would see a younger Hagler putting that type of punishment on Calzaghe though. I think Calzaghe is better now than in his physical prime because he has improved as a boxer, I am not sure Hagler would find it super easy to hit him, I mean both Hopkins and Roy are old, they are still very quick and still amazingly accurate, and even Bernard had some difficulties finding Calzaghe as the night progressed because Joe doesn't slow down.

And like Rozzysean said, I don't think prime Hagler would be so eager to just pressure Calzaghe, and I don't think he is fast enough to catch Calzaghe coming in, consistently. Kessler was able to because he was orthodox, and Bernard was able to because he is an amazing counter puncher, but both gradually landed less, and less punches as Calzaghe maintained or increased the tempo, and got more into a rhythm.

As for Leonard, he hadn't fought in three years, so you can't really use him being good before in 15 round fights as evidence for the Hagler fight, especially against a guy so much bigger (Hagler's head probably weighed as much as Ray). I am looking back at Hagler's record and I honestly see a punch of pylons for him to walk over Minter, Watts, Hamani . I think a lot of what people see of Hagler is him fighting guys WAY worse than him, and if you remember when Foreman came back he was able to dominate guys and outbox them because they were so much below him. The guys on Hagler's list don't rate highly to me, and him not being able to stop Leonard even in 12 rounds or Duran in 15 makes me think HAgler wouldn't be too much for Calzaghe.

I can't argue against the reality that Hagler got stuck fighting a lot of people that were far below him during his championship period. It wasn't the best era for MW's. What I can say in defense of Hagler's list is that he DEMOLISHED all the lesser fighters put before him, more so than many other great champions, that were forced to defend against less than world class opponents for stretches of their careers. Considering that both Duran and Leonard are ATG's and lower weight or not, better fighters than any non-Hopkins fighter Calzaghe has faced. I'm not too troubled that he didn't stop them.

The only point I really disagree with you on is that Hagler was great counterpuncher, perhaps equal to Hopkins, but certainly not too far behind him, and he had better killer instict. He was a different style than Hopkins, but his countering was no less effective. He would explode out of counter-mode and go into full attack mode, unlike many other superb counterpunchers, and he was an amazing finisher once he got him man in trouble. If Hagler put Calzaghe on his ass like Jones or Hopkins did, I'm fairly certain that he could have pressed his advantage better than Jones or Hopkins. Hagler definately ate some shots by going for the kill, but he had the chin to take it and in the end he got was he was after.

It's not like I see Hagler an overwhelming favorite in this mythical bout. You can certainly make a legit case for Calzaghe. In some ways, they both suffered from the same problem of having trouble getting the big fights in their prime and having relatively weak opposition in the division during their reigns. Late in his career, Hagler got big fights against great WW's and LWM's moving up, and Calzaghe got big fights against great older fighters. Hagler took a loss on paper, and Calzaghe got a gift on paper.

My judgement is based in large amount that Hagler beat his second rate opponents worse than Calzaghe beat his, and that Hagler, even though he fought some smaller fighters, fought these fights were against better opposition than Calzaghe. As much as I respect Kessler, he is no Tommy Hearns, no matter the weight class, and I can't imagine guys like Brewer, Salem, Reid, Ashira, or Jiminez going the distance with Hagler.

[RozzySean]

Fair play but I for one know that Reid is very underrated and was unfortunate to come at the same time as Joe, Reid had power and a good chin but lacked the fire to beat up the lesser men

Reid was deffo good

Yep Hagler beat him but Hagler also had losses

As yet Joe is unbeaten

Happy new year, its only a boxing forum and unless there is a delorian kicking around any old versus new boxing mythical matches are open for debate so no one will win

While it's impressive that Calzaghe is undefeated and Hagler had losses, you have to consider the era, the protectedness of Calzaghe, and Hagler's difficulties getting good matchups. He wasn't nearly as protected as many of today's fighters.

Reid was no pushover, that's for sure. I actually think of him as a poor man's Marvin Hagler, except orthodox. If Reid had been around at the time of Hagler, he would have been one of Hagler's tougher defenses (behind Duran, Hearns, Mugabi, and Leonard), but at the end of the day, I'm not sure Reid is much better than Hamsho, Antufermo, or Fuli Obel. Reid is more fresh in our minds, but Mustafa, Vito, and Fulegencio were no joke during there time. They were certainly better than Caveman Lee

[Taeth]

I hear you, and it's a good point, but my reasoning is different. Against most fighters, you are right that Calzaghe would be an even better 15 round fighter. He's my thinking, but I could be wrong.

Both Hagler and Calzaghe get stronger as the fight goes on, but Hagler would be putting more punishment on Calzaghe than Calzaghe could put on Hagler. Calzaghe would be able to steal rounds, much like Leonard did, but the cumulative affect would take it's toll eventually. Leonard was a great 15 round fighter, too, but if the fight with Hagler had been 15, Hagler certainly would have stopped him. It was Calzaghe's EARLY lead that carried him through against Reid, and IMHO, if Hagler had hitting Calzaghe like Reid hit Calzaghe, Calzaghe might not have energy for a strong finish.

For the record, and old Joe Calzaghe beats an old Marvin Hagler. Joe aged much better than Marvin. The version of Hagler that fought Leonard and Mugabi would get outboxed by Joe C.

That's valid, I am not sure I would see a younger Hagler putting that type of punishment on Calzaghe though. I think Calzaghe is better now than in his physical prime because he has improved as a boxer, I am not sure Hagler would find it super easy to hit him, I mean both Hopkins and Roy are old, they are still very quick and still amazingly accurate, and even Bernard had some difficulties finding Calzaghe as the night progressed because Joe doesn't slow down.

And like Rozzysean said, I don't think prime Hagler would be so eager to just pressure Calzaghe, and I don't think he is fast enough to catch Calzaghe coming in, consistently. Kessler was able to because he was orthodox, and Bernard was able to because he is an amazing counter puncher, but both gradually landed less, and less punches as Calzaghe maintained or increased the tempo, and got more into a rhythm.

As for Leonard, he hadn't fought in three years, so you can't really use him being good before in 15 round fights as evidence for the Hagler fight, especially against a guy so much bigger (Hagler's head probably weighed as much as Ray). I am looking back at Hagler's record and I honestly see a punch of pylons for him to walk over Minter, Watts, Hamani . I think a lot of what people see of Hagler is him fighting guys WAY worse than him, and if you remember when Foreman came back he was able to dominate guys and outbox them because they were so much below him. The guys on Hagler's list don't rate highly to me, and him not being able to stop Leonard even in 12 rounds or Duran in 15 makes me think HAgler wouldn't be too much for Calzaghe.

I can't argue against the reality that Hagler got stuck fighting a lot of people that were far below him during his championship period. It wasn't the best era for MW's. What I can say in defense of Hagler's list is that he DEMOLISHED all the lesser fighters put before him, more so than many other great champions, that were forced to defend against less than world class opponents for stretches of their careers. Considering that both Duran and Leonard are ATG's and lower weight or not, better fighters than any non-Hopkins fighter Calzaghe has faced. I'm not too troubled that he didn't stop them.

The only point I really disagree with you on is that Hagler was great counterpuncher, perhaps equal to Hopkins, but certainly not too far behind him, and he had better killer instict. He was a different style than Hopkins, but his countering was no less effective. He would explode out of counter-mode and go into full attack mode, unlike many other superb counterpunchers, and he was an amazing finisher once he got him man in trouble. If Hagler put Calzaghe on his ass like Jones or Hopkins did, I'm fairly certain that he could have pressed his advantage better than Jones or Hopkins. Hagler definately ate some shots by going for the kill, but he had the chin to take it and in the end he got was he was after.

It's not like I see Hagler an overwhelming favorite in this mythical bout. You can certainly make a legit case for Calzaghe. In some ways, they both suffered from the same problem of having trouble getting the big fights in their prime and having relatively weak opposition in the division during their reigns. Late in his career, Hagler got big fights against great WW's and LWM's moving up, and Calzaghe got big fights against great older fighters. Hagler took a loss on paper, and Calzaghe got a gift on paper.

My judgement is based in large amount that Hagler beat his second rate opponents worse than Calzaghe beat his, and that Hagler, even though he fought some smaller fighters, fought these fights were against better opposition than Calzaghe. As much as I respect Kessler, he is no Tommy Hearns, no matter the weight class, and I can't imagine guys like Brewer, Salem, Reid, Ashira, or Jiminez going the distance with Hagler.

That's fair enough as long people respect that Joe is somewhere in Hagler's league. I think you broke it down very well. I have Joe winning, but I can see the arguement for the other side. I still don't agree with Hagler being the counter puncher or tactician Bernard is/was though ;P

[CGM]

I was always a big Hagler fan. Damn he deserved a rematch against Leonard. He earned it. And if he lost to Calzaghe the first time round, I'm damn sure he'd have something to say about it the second time around. If he had the chance.

[rjj tszyu]

I'd go Hagler by KO. I know Joe's got a solid chin but if Hagler floored him like Jones and Hopkins did he used to have great finishing skills and IMO wouldn't have given him chance to recover like Roy did especially.