One More Question

[Kirkland Laing]

Kirkland, you didn't really respond to my post or you did it in a round-about way. Are you saying that if Pacquiao had agreed to take the test for this one fight versus Mayweather and tested clean, win or lose, it would have erased any doubt you had of his using steroids in the past? How would testing clean for the fight with Mayweather change your opinion of his taking any drugs for the Cotto fight? He didn't undergo the tests that Mayweather is requiring of him in that fight as far as I know. Even if he tested clean as Mayweather demanded, maybe this was just a big pay day and it was worth it to not take drugs for one fight.

I totally agree, as I said in my post, that he should have taken the tests because we would have been able to watch Mayweather v. Pacquiao, but I don't see how it would dispel any doubt you had about Pacquiao taking drugs in the past.

The conclusion I am trying to draw is that Pac not taking the tests for this fight is odd because its not like testing clean for this fight means he didn't take drugs on his way up the weight class ladder when taking drugs would have been seemingly more beneficial. And this was his biggest pay day. He's been fighting at 145 now for a little while.

Let's say Pacquiao had been guilty of taking drugs in the past and had agreed to take the tests, even though logically it shouldn't clear his name, for yourself and other's like you, it may have cleared his name and in the process he could have made 20M. So, why not just test clean for this fight especially if he's been guilty in the past?

It'd be hard to judge against Mayweather because I'd expect him to lose to Mayweather either way. If he fought Mayweather and looked like a blown-up powderpuff version of a guy who'd lost to a shot featherweight five years ago it'd confirm to me he was a cheater. But if he was dinging Floyd with hard punches occasionally and had taken random tests I'd be inclined to believe the last five years had been legit. Ideally I'd like to see his next fight to be against JMM at 135 with daily tests so there's no way he could cheat. I'd love to see that.

The thing that gets me about Manny is the Cotto fight. I can accept he's got better as a boxer over the last few years. I can accept that DLH and Hatton were nowhere near their previous standards. But to beat Cotto up like that, to be hurting him nearly every time he landed, for an ex-106 pounder, no fucking way.

I think he won't fight Floyd without his roids because he'd get the shit beaten out of him for twelve rounds. He'd get beaten so badly that nobody would be talking about Manny the all time great and everybody would be talking about Floyd. The only chance he has in that fight is to be able to do a lot of damage when he does land, he needs the power that the PEDs give him. At this stage of his career he's going to make big money from all his fights, he does films etc. back home. He can afford to give up twenty or thirty mill and keep his reputation, losing to Floyd would shatter it.

I'll respond to the highlighted sections in order.

First, it is IMPOSSIBLE to even remotely accurately look at a specific performance (e.g. if Pacquiao fought Mayweather) and say "well, in that one fight he was using roids, but in that one there, he wasn't" without tests or proof from a witness that Pacquiao used steroids.

He didn't hurt Cotto everytime he landed and steroids don't change your punches from average welterweight punches to heavyweight punches. From what I gather, most of the time steroids and the ones Pacquiao has been accused of using are more to help with endurance and recovery. They don't change your fists into bricks.

When was the last time Floyd retired anyone? He doesn't practice that style of boxing. Hatton got a huge pay day after the Floyd fight in the Pacquiao fight. Most of the time Floyd doesn't even look for the knockout - see the Marquez fight. And above and beyond, unlike Floyd, Pacquiao has lost before even been knocked out, why would losing to Floyd be a deal breaker on not taking roids especially when we are talking about upwards of $20M. Also, it's not like Pacquiao has ever been afraid to fight anyone. Why would Floyd scare him when he has fought more aggressive fighters in the past especially when he is making $20M? Like I said, I may be scared to get in the ring with Vlad or Vitali without the help of roids, but for $20M, I'd be leap-frogging the ring to get into it and I didn't grow up dirt poor in the Philipines where my dad ate my dog for dinner.

But, for you, if I interpret you correctly, is that it all boils down to the fact that if Pacquiao tested clean for this fight, you would agree he had never used drugs in the past? See for the reasons above, that doesn't make sense to me.

How does one clean fight vindicate him? And, if it does, why not just take the test and test clean and lose? You'd be $20M richer, considered a steroids-clean boxer, and more famous. Plus, you'd appear valient and fans would give you props for getting in the ring with a bigger man in Floyd even in defeat. Like they do Pavlik with Hopkins and even after losing horribly Pavlik is still getting multi-million dollar fights.

If Manny was taking HGH it cuts all the fat from his body and turns what's left into super lean muscle mass. It's the way to get as much lean muscle mass withinh the weight classification It would explain how he can punch so hard at welter.

FH: How might the desired effects that a boxer may want to achieve manifest itself in a boxer during a fight?

Tygart: Take a real-life example. Look at Shane Mosley and his doping program that was reported by a number outlets when he was involved with BALCO. He used both a designer steroid as well as blood enhancing products like EPO. This is a good anecdote as to how these drugs translate very well for boxers.

What you want with that combination of steroids and blood enhancing product is that you want to be the best pound-for-pound, with that lean muscle mass, and to be the strongest competitor that you can be. Whether that means that you are at 180, 170, 210.

Various forms of steroids and human growth hormone are going to allow you to do that. If you want lean muscle mass and be light, you're going to want a lot of HGH. You're going to cut weight, but that weight is going to be lean muscle mass.

It's not going to be fat. It's going to be the strongest pound-for-pound that you can get inside of your frame at that weight.



You'd agree to fight without roids for $20 million because you don't have $20 million in the bank. Manny does, and because of that money isn't in his equation to the extent it's in yours. It's not like he can't fight only Mayweather or make nothing, he's earning for the Clottey fight, isn't he? Not as much but the difference isn't as important to him as what he might lose against Floyd.

Being a national hero for beating all the other top fighters, his place in boxing history, not being beaten like a gong for twelve rounds and not getting completely humiliated by Floyd, all those things are far more important than a certain sum of money to Manny.

Floys is a far better boxer than Manny. Manny's only chance is to take his roid power into the ring and do damage on the occasions he does land. Take his power away and he 'd be facing twelve rounds of abject humiliation.

If he tested clean I'd still suspect him. It's what he can do in the ring after he tests clean that I'd be judging him on.

[Kirkland Laing]

[continued] So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

Dr. Johnny has noting but innuendo and half truths in his blog and fails to present any tangible scientific facts. He says nothing to back up claim that Mayweather knows a thing or two. Nothing! Take a look at the comments.

A very convoluted interview from the good Dr. Tygart. It means nothing as far as random blood being needed to find HGH that urine testing couldn't do. I have already addressed the issue of HGH in other posts. There has never (Yes, NEVER!) been a positive blood test for HGH of an athlete. It doesn't work. The experts have claimed to the Anti-doping committees and congress that the reasons it hasn't worked so far is because the test is being applied wrong. (i.e. at competitions) Hence we now have random testing out of competition. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/sp...1baseball.html
Conclusion: The Scientist made a lot of money selling this product and can't back it up. So now we have random testing. We now have scientist that have resulted to fishing.

There is a test for HGH that may have more success which is a urine test.
CeresNano

Given that it is extremely difficult to catch a cheater using the HGH, then why doesn't the good doctor recommend the use of the urine test? The subject is a single event where there are only two combatants. It doesn't warrant an Olympic-Style setup for 1000's of competitors that are screened for irregularities and then once someone as an irregularity further testing is applied. The point is the interview he is giving is more geared toward selling the testing procedures for boxing as a whole and not specifically for this one fight.

Now for EPO. If EPO is used, it's purpose is to increase the oxygen capacity of blood. It would do absolutely no good to use EPO during training and then cycle off it for the fight. It would actually have a counter effect. So there is absolutely no reason that testing 30 days before and immediately following the fight that EPO couldn't be detected if used. In addition EPO can be tested for using urine which is actually a direct method rather than just blood profiling which is an indirect method. Drug Tests Used in Sports - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

So check it out.

If your going to dig an experts link out, try to do one that doesn't have a hard on for Mayweather or strong ties to GBP. They appear to have altier motives and tend not to give complete answers.

Yes, the head of the US Olympic anti-doping organisation, the man who oversees the testing of over 3000 athletes is biased towards Mayweather. The only evidence of bias you can show is that Manny says they are. If an American athlete refused to let the USADA random test him, said he'd only take scheduled tests at times he agreed to and accused the USADA od being biased he'd be destroyed by the US media overnight. If he continued refusing testing as long as Manny has his career would be over.

As far as the drug testing goes I'm going to go with the heads of the anti-doping organisations -- you know, the people who know what they're talking about -- over the claims of a Pacneedle fan.

[Mar]

The only people that are against drug tests are drug users. Shit me and everyone i know hate 'em.

[Rantcatrat]

It'd be hard to judge against Mayweather because I'd expect him to lose to Mayweather either way. If he fought Mayweather and looked like a blown-up powderpuff version of a guy who'd lost to a shot featherweight five years ago it'd confirm to me he was a cheater. But if he was dinging Floyd with hard punches occasionally and had taken random tests I'd be inclined to believe the last five years had been legit. Ideally I'd like to see his next fight to be against JMM at 135 with daily tests so there's no way he could cheat. I'd love to see that.

The thing that gets me about Manny is the Cotto fight. I can accept he's got better as a boxer over the last few years. I can accept that DLH and Hatton were nowhere near their previous standards. But to beat Cotto up like that, to be hurting him nearly every time he landed, for an ex-106 pounder, no fucking way.

I think he won't fight Floyd without his roids because he'd get the shit beaten out of him for twelve rounds. He'd get beaten so badly that nobody would be talking about Manny the all time great and everybody would be talking about Floyd. The only chance he has in that fight is to be able to do a lot of damage when he does land, he needs the power that the PEDs give him. At this stage of his career he's going to make big money from all his fights, he does films etc. back home. He can afford to give up twenty or thirty mill and keep his reputation, losing to Floyd would shatter it.

I'll respond to the highlighted sections in order.

First, it is IMPOSSIBLE to even remotely accurately look at a specific performance (e.g. if Pacquiao fought Mayweather) and say "well, in that one fight he was using roids, but in that one there, he wasn't" without tests or proof from a witness that Pacquiao used steroids.

He didn't hurt Cotto everytime he landed and steroids don't change your punches from average welterweight punches to heavyweight punches. From what I gather, most of the time steroids and the ones Pacquiao has been accused of using are more to help with endurance and recovery. They don't change your fists into bricks.

When was the last time Floyd retired anyone? He doesn't practice that style of boxing. Hatton got a huge pay day after the Floyd fight in the Pacquiao fight. Most of the time Floyd doesn't even look for the knockout - see the Marquez fight. And above and beyond, unlike Floyd, Pacquiao has lost before even been knocked out, why would losing to Floyd be a deal breaker on not taking roids especially when we are talking about upwards of $20M. Also, it's not like Pacquiao has ever been afraid to fight anyone. Why would Floyd scare him when he has fought more aggressive fighters in the past especially when he is making $20M? Like I said, I may be scared to get in the ring with Vlad or Vitali without the help of roids, but for $20M, I'd be leap-frogging the ring to get into it and I didn't grow up dirt poor in the Philipines where my dad ate my dog for dinner.

But, for you, if I interpret you correctly, is that it all boils down to the fact that if Pacquiao tested clean for this fight, you would agree he had never used drugs in the past? See for the reasons above, that doesn't make sense to me.

How does one clean fight vindicate him? And, if it does, why not just take the test and test clean and lose? You'd be $20M richer, considered a steroids-clean boxer, and more famous. Plus, you'd appear valient and fans would give you props for getting in the ring with a bigger man in Floyd even in defeat. Like they do Pavlik with Hopkins and even after losing horribly Pavlik is still getting multi-million dollar fights.

If Manny was taking HGH it cuts all the fat from his body and turns what's left into super lean muscle mass. It's the way to get as much lean muscle mass withinh the weight classification It would explain how he can punch so hard at welter.

FH: How might the desired effects that a boxer may want to achieve manifest itself in a boxer during a fight?

Tygart: Take a real-life example. Look at Shane Mosley and his doping program that was reported by a number outlets when he was involved with BALCO. He used both a designer steroid as well as blood enhancing products like EPO. This is a good anecdote as to how these drugs translate very well for boxers.

What you want with that combination of steroids and blood enhancing product is that you want to be the best pound-for-pound, with that lean muscle mass, and to be the strongest competitor that you can be. Whether that means that you are at 180, 170, 210.

Various forms of steroids and human growth hormone are going to allow you to do that. If you want lean muscle mass and be light, you're going to want a lot of HGH. You're going to cut weight, but that weight is going to be lean muscle mass.

It's not going to be fat. It's going to be the strongest pound-for-pound that you can get inside of your frame at that weight.



You'd agree to fight without roids for $20 million because you don't have $20 million in the bank. Manny does, and because of that money isn't in his equation to the extent it's in yours. It's not like he can't fight only Mayweather or make nothing, he's earning for the Clottey fight, isn't he? Not as much but the difference isn't as important to him as what he might lose against Floyd.

Being a national hero for beating all the other top fighters, his place in boxing history, not being beaten like a gong for twelve rounds and not getting completely humiliated by Floyd, all those things are far more important than a certain sum of money to Manny.

Floys is a far better boxer than Manny. Manny's only chance is to take his roid power into the ring and do damage on the occasions he does land. Take his power away and he 'd be facing twelve rounds of abject humiliation.

If he tested clean I'd still suspect him. It's what he can do in the ring after he tests clean that I'd be judging him on.

What you're saying in the bolded section is that Manny doesn't want to lose and Floyd will humiliate him if they do fight and that is why he wouldn't fight Floyd with Floyd's demands.

Would you have thought Manny would beat Floyd with the help of roids? I didn't. Would his chances of losing have changed that much because he took roids for the fight and specifically the roids that don't show up in random urine tests?

Manny has already lost three times and been knocked out. Why is he afraid to lose now? If he is afraid to lose, why has he chosen Cotto and Clottey as opponents? Why not fighters that he'll definitely beat? I give Clottey a solid chance of beating Manny. He could have fought Foreman or any number of boxers for the same amount of money as Clottey.

Also, losing to Floyd wouldn't be too humiliating because he would be losing to the p4p best fighter in the world. Someone who many people already compare with the atg's. Do you think Hatton feels humiliated because he lost to Floyd? I don't. He stepped up in weight to fight the best and loss. To this day, the love for Hatton remains in Britain and especially Mancester. Manny's fear of not taking losing isn't a credible explanation as to why not stay free of roids for one fight, I don't think.

How he looks in the ring after testing clean once has no bearing on whether he did roids in the past especially against Floyd.

[fan johnny]

Yes, the head of the US Olympic anti-doping organisation, the man who oversees the testing of over 3000 athletes is biased towards Mayweather. The only evidence of bias you can show is that Manny says they are. If an American athlete refused to let the USADA random test him, said he'd only take scheduled tests at times he agreed to and accused the USADA od being biased he'd be destroyed by the US media overnight. If he continued refusing testing as long as Manny has his career would be over.

As far as the drug testing goes I'm going to go with the heads of the anti-doping organisations -- you know, the people who know what they're talking about -- over the claims of a Pacneedle fan.

Seeing that you don't address any of the facts you posted and my factual response, I will defer and only address your response.

It's been pretty common knowledge that Dela Hoya had been connected with Travis Tygart since the BALCO experience with Mosley. I don't ever recall reading anything about Pacquiao or even his Team referring to Tygart although they may have.

What does it mean to have Olympic style testing? They do random testing one in-competition (usually immediately following the event) and one out of competition. They specify that the athlete must be available at all times and that he must let them know his whereabouts. They don't do 7 random blood tests in a 8 week period during training. Pacquiao agreed to 3 blood tests and unspecified urine tests. Now you can't look at the Olympic style testing procedures and tell me it is not bias toward Mayweather harassing Pacquiao because he has a phobia about his blood being taken. So stop the BS campain that Pacquiao refused to do testing and just stick with the facts. If you see any claims that are not backed up by fact, then point them out. Oh, so you don't really want the facts! And would rather just stick with innuendo and speculation.

[erik_corrales]

i would also like to add this article

TALKING ROIDS, PAC, SHANE, WITH BALCO’S VICTOR CONTE

let me quote

"That being said, let’s start with the issues that Victor Conte debunked during his appearance. First of all, testing for Human Growth Hormone, HGH, an effective test really doesn’t exist. Floyd Mayweather’s camp has asked for Olympic style drug testing. What Conte is quick to point out is that the Olympic officials have tested over 1,000 athletes in recent years, and NOT a single HGH test has ever come back “positive.” Said Conte during background, “There were countries where an entire team was on Steroids and HGH and passed Olympic style testing. Even though we’re not done, if I was Floyd I’d toss the call for Olympic testing after hearing this."


there you go, straight from the horse's mouth


that being said though, in the end of the article, conte goes on about saying pacquiao should still take the blood test.

[Kirkland Laing]

I'll respond to the highlighted sections in order.

First, it is IMPOSSIBLE to even remotely accurately look at a specific performance (e.g. if Pacquiao fought Mayweather) and say "well, in that one fight he was using roids, but in that one there, he wasn't" without tests or proof from a witness that Pacquiao used steroids.

He didn't hurt Cotto everytime he landed and steroids don't change your punches from average welterweight punches to heavyweight punches. From what I gather, most of the time steroids and the ones Pacquiao has been accused of using are more to help with endurance and recovery. They don't change your fists into bricks.

When was the last time Floyd retired anyone? He doesn't practice that style of boxing. Hatton got a huge pay day after the Floyd fight in the Pacquiao fight. Most of the time Floyd doesn't even look for the knockout - see the Marquez fight. And above and beyond, unlike Floyd, Pacquiao has lost before even been knocked out, why would losing to Floyd be a deal breaker on not taking roids especially when we are talking about upwards of $20M. Also, it's not like Pacquiao has ever been afraid to fight anyone. Why would Floyd scare him when he has fought more aggressive fighters in the past especially when he is making $20M? Like I said, I may be scared to get in the ring with Vlad or Vitali without the help of roids, but for $20M, I'd be leap-frogging the ring to get into it and I didn't grow up dirt poor in the Philipines where my dad ate my dog for dinner.

But, for you, if I interpret you correctly, is that it all boils down to the fact that if Pacquiao tested clean for this fight, you would agree he had never used drugs in the past? See for the reasons above, that doesn't make sense to me.

How does one clean fight vindicate him? And, if it does, why not just take the test and test clean and lose? You'd be $20M richer, considered a steroids-clean boxer, and more famous. Plus, you'd appear valient and fans would give you props for getting in the ring with a bigger man in Floyd even in defeat. Like they do Pavlik with Hopkins and even after losing horribly Pavlik is still getting multi-million dollar fights.

If Manny was taking HGH it cuts all the fat from his body and turns what's left into super lean muscle mass. It's the way to get as much lean muscle mass withinh the weight classification It would explain how he can punch so hard at welter.

FH: How might the desired effects that a boxer may want to achieve manifest itself in a boxer during a fight?

Tygart: Take a real-life example. Look at Shane Mosley and his doping program that was reported by a number outlets when he was involved with BALCO. He used both a designer steroid as well as blood enhancing products like EPO. This is a good anecdote as to how these drugs translate very well for boxers.

What you want with that combination of steroids and blood enhancing product is that you want to be the best pound-for-pound, with that lean muscle mass, and to be the strongest competitor that you can be. Whether that means that you are at 180, 170, 210.

Various forms of steroids and human growth hormone are going to allow you to do that. If you want lean muscle mass and be light, you're going to want a lot of HGH. You're going to cut weight, but that weight is going to be lean muscle mass.

It's not going to be fat. It's going to be the strongest pound-for-pound that you can get inside of your frame at that weight.



You'd agree to fight without roids for $20 million because you don't have $20 million in the bank. Manny does, and because of that money isn't in his equation to the extent it's in yours. It's not like he can't fight only Mayweather or make nothing, he's earning for the Clottey fight, isn't he? Not as much but the difference isn't as important to him as what he might lose against Floyd.

Being a national hero for beating all the other top fighters, his place in boxing history, not being beaten like a gong for twelve rounds and not getting completely humiliated by Floyd, all those things are far more important than a certain sum of money to Manny.

Floys is a far better boxer than Manny. Manny's only chance is to take his roid power into the ring and do damage on the occasions he does land. Take his power away and he 'd be facing twelve rounds of abject humiliation.

If he tested clean I'd still suspect him. It's what he can do in the ring after he tests clean that I'd be judging him on.

What you're saying in the bolded section is that Manny doesn't want to lose and Floyd will humiliate him if they do fight and that is why he wouldn't fight Floyd with Floyd's demands.

Would you have thought Manny would beat Floyd with the help of roids? I didn't. Would his chances of losing have changed that much because he took roids for the fight and specifically the roids that don't show up in random urine tests?

Manny has already lost three times and been knocked out. Why is he afraid to lose now? If he is afraid to lose, why has he chosen Cotto and Clottey as opponents? Why not fighters that he'll definitely beat? I give Clottey a solid chance of beating Manny. He could have fought Foreman or any number of boxers for the same amount of money as Clottey.

Also, losing to Floyd wouldn't be too humiliating because he would be losing to the p4p best fighter in the world. Someone who many people already compare with the atg's. Do you think Hatton feels humiliated because he lost to Floyd? I don't. He stepped up in weight to fight the best and loss. To this day, the love for Hatton remains in Britain and especially Mancester. Manny's fear of not taking losing isn't a credible explanation as to why not stay free of roids for one fight, I don't think.

How he looks in the ring after testing clean once has no bearing on whether he did roids in the past especially against Floyd.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Kirkland Laing]

Yes, the head of the US Olympic anti-doping organisation, the man who oversees the testing of over 3000 athletes is biased towards Mayweather. The only evidence of bias you can show is that Manny says they are. If an American athlete refused to let the USADA random test him, said he'd only take scheduled tests at times he agreed to and accused the USADA od being biased he'd be destroyed by the US media overnight. If he continued refusing testing as long as Manny has his career would be over.

As far as the drug testing goes I'm going to go with the heads of the anti-doping organisations -- you know, the people who know what they're talking about -- over the claims of a Pacneedle fan.

Seeing that you don't address any of the facts you posted and my factual response, I will defer and only address your response.

It's been pretty common knowledge that Dela Hoya had been connected with Travis Tygart since the BALCO experience with Mosley. I don't ever recall reading anything about Pacquiao or even his Team referring to Tygart although they may have.

What does it mean to have Olympic style testing? They do random testing one in-competition (usually immediately following the event) and one out of competition. They specify that the athlete must be available at all times and that he must let them know his whereabouts. They don't do 7 random blood tests in a 8 week period during training. Pacquiao agreed to 3 blood tests and unspecified urine tests. Now you can't look at the Olympic style testing procedures and tell me it is not bias toward Mayweather harassing Pacquiao because he has a phobia about his blood being taken. So stop the BS campain that Pacquiao refused to do testing and just stick with the facts. If you see any claims that are not backed up by fact, then point them out. Oh, so you don't really want the facts! And would rather just stick with innuendo and speculation.

I adressed your "facts" by pointing out that you're just dome Pacneedle fan on a messageboard and that the head of Olympic testing in the US has forgotten more about drug testing than you'll ever know.

As for who's dealing in innuendo, exactly what evidence do you have to suggest any "connection" between GBP and USADA? Other than Manny claiming there is I've never heard anything. If it's common knowledge how come I never heard about it before? Where is the evidence of this "common knowledge" you speak of on the internet?