Cotto may never be the same

[TitoFan]

How do we know that he has a strong "character"?

I dunno... depends how you define "character" in boxing. If you define it as someone who is dedicated to the ring and sport and always gives his all in the ring... if you define it as someone who does not need to trash-talk anyone, but rather let's his fists do the talking... if you define it as someone who takes on all opponents they put in front of him... if you define it as someone who refuses to make excuses when he is beaten... if you define it as someone who comports himself with class in and out of the ring...

Then yes... IMO, Cotto would qualify as having a strong character.

Does any of this help?

Ok you just described every fighter that is competitive in the sport, except for the trash talk part, so if they all have character what makes Cotto so special? and why can he bounce back from this one and Jeff Lacy not bounce back from from his loss to JC? Maybe its not that Lacy couldnt bounce back maybe it was like some other posters have said in the past about him, maybe he got "found out"...maybe Cotto got "found out" I'm not saying that specifically but the argument could be made for it.

(patient sigh of exasperation)...No Onix, I DIDN'T describe every fighter who is competitive in the sport. Geeez, you and Chino can wear a guy out with your non-sensical anti-Cotto rantings. Lots of competitive fighters out there: 1) blatantly duck opponents, for whatever reason (ie: Oscar and Margarito), and 2) make all kinds of excuses when they're beaten. So you see... you're wrong right off the bat.

As for Cotto getting "found out"... found out about what?!?!? That he's been a bum all along?!? Get a grip, for chrissakes.

You know, for not wanting to be a "dick"... you're walking a very fine line.

[Onix]

I dunno... depends how you define "character" in boxing. If you define it as someone who is dedicated to the ring and sport and always gives his all in the ring... if you define it as someone who does not need to trash-talk anyone, but rather let's his fists do the talking... if you define it as someone who takes on all opponents they put in front of him... if you define it as someone who refuses to make excuses when he is beaten... if you define it as someone who comports himself with class in and out of the ring...

Then yes... IMO, Cotto would qualify as having a strong character.

Does any of this help?

Ok you just described every fighter that is competitive in the sport, except for the trash talk part, so if they all have character what makes Cotto so special? and why can he bounce back from this one and Jeff Lacy not bounce back from from his loss to JC? Maybe its not that Lacy couldnt bounce back maybe it was like some other posters have said in the past about him, maybe he got "found out"...maybe Cotto got "found out" I'm not saying that specifically but the argument could be made for it.

(patient sigh of exasperation)...No Onix, I DIDN'T describe every fighter who is competitive in the sport. Geeez, you and Chino can wear a guy out with your non-sensical anti-Cotto rantings. Lots of competitive fighters out there: 1) blatantly duck opponents, for whatever reason (ie: Oscar and Margarito), and 2) make all kinds of excuses when they're beaten. So you see... you're wrong right off the bat.

As for Cotto getting "found out"... found out about what?!?!? That he's been a bum all along?!? Get a grip, for chrissakes.

You know, for not wanting to be a "dick"... you're walking a very fine line.

Haha, walking a fine line? why cuz I am not agreeing with you? I never said I didnt like Cotto I am very much pro Cotto, I'm simply making a point as are you and I'm not calling you a dick for it.

Maybe I jumped the gun in saying that every fighter has character, ok maybe not, but alot of fighters have the traits that you described about Cotto so why is Cotto so special?

What I said in regards to him being found out is more of a statement as to why people say Lacy's loss to JC was so devasting, maybe it was just that he cant compete at that level not that he had such a terrible loss, so why cant the same be said about Cotto?

I think my replies regarding this topic have been very "sensical" if you dont want to be tested and questioned about your replies then maybe you should not post them up.

You call them "anti-cotto" rantings, then what are yours pro-cotto rantings? The differance here is one major point, lets just say im pro-Margo and you are pro-cotto, I can see Margo's weaknesses and acknowledge his losses without excuse. You dont argue the loss but you will not accept that maybe he is not fighter everyone thought he could/should be. The Margo fight was supposed to be Cotto's huge coming out party, I think even Arum was like shit I just fucked my boy up on this one. I dont doubt his pedigree, Cotto is a great fighter, but leave your mind open to the fact that maybe he's not at the level of you want him to be, as Im open to the fact that he may come back and beat Margo on the rematch.

[TitoFan]

[quote=OnixAA;661791]

Ok you just described every fighter that is competitive in the sport, except for the trash talk part, so if they all have character what makes Cotto so special? and why can he bounce back from this one and Jeff Lacy not bounce back from from his loss to JC? Maybe its not that Lacy couldnt bounce back maybe it was like some other posters have said in the past about him, maybe he got "found out"...maybe Cotto got "found out" I'm not saying that specifically but the argument could be made for it.

(patient sigh of exasperation)...No Onix, I DIDN'T describe every fighter who is competitive in the sport. Geeez, you and Chino can wear a guy out with your non-sensical anti-Cotto rantings. Lots of competitive fighters out there: 1) blatantly duck opponents, for whatever reason (ie: Oscar and Margarito), and 2) make all kinds of excuses when they're beaten. So you see... you're wrong right off the bat.

As for Cotto getting "found out"... found out about what?!?!? That he's been a bum all along?!? Get a grip, for chrissakes.

You know, for not wanting to be a "dick"... you're walking a very fine line.

Haha, walking a fine line? why cuz I am not agreeing with you? I never said I didnt like Cotto I am very much pro Cotto, I'm simply making a point as are you and I'm not calling you a dick for it. (Ok, you're right).

Maybe I jumped the gun in saying that every fighter has character, ok maybe not, but alot of fighters have the traits that you described about Cotto so why is Cotto so special? (A poster said Cotto had a strong character. You refuted that. I came back to tell you why I think Cotto has character. Nothing in there says I said Cotto is "special". Don't put words in my mouth).

What I said in regards to him being found out is more of a statement as to why people say Lacy's loss to JC was so devasting, maybe it was just that he cant compete at that level not that he had such a terrible loss, so why cant the same be said about Cotto? (That he can't compete at that level? Because of the one loss? I think we're jumping the gun on this one, don't you?)

I think my replies regarding this topic have been very "sensical" if you dont want to be tested and questioned about your replies then maybe you should not post them up. (What makes you the "tester and questioner" and me the "questionee"? You state your views, I state mine. I'm not here to convince you about anything).

You call them "anti-cotto" rantings, then what are yours pro-cotto rantings? The differance here is one major point, lets just say im pro-Margo and you are pro-cotto, I can see Margo's weaknesses and acknowledge his losses without excuse. You dont argue the loss(I'm glad you at least see that much). but you will not accept that maybe he is not fighter everyone thought he could/should be. The Margo fight was supposed to be Cotto's huge coming out party, I think even Arum was like shit I just fucked my boy up on this one. I dont doubt his pedigree, Cotto is a great fighter, but leave your mind open to the fact that maybe he's not at the level of you want him to be, as Im open to the fact that he may come back and beat Margo on the rematch.(Ironically, I'm not even that sure that Cotto could beat Margarito in a rematch. Sometimes it's a matter of style, and Cotto did everything humanly possible to try to beat Margarito but came up short. He'd need a major strategy change to pull off a victory in a rematch).[/quote]

See my comments above.

[Scrap]

After the Fight Cottos walk back to the dressing room spoke volumes as did his posture.

[Onix]

[quote=TitoFan;661796]

(patient sigh of exasperation)...No Onix, I DIDN'T describe every fighter who is competitive in the sport. Geeez, you and Chino can wear a guy out with your non-sensical anti-Cotto rantings. Lots of competitive fighters out there: 1) blatantly duck opponents, for whatever reason (ie: Oscar and Margarito), and 2) make all kinds of excuses when they're beaten. So you see... you're wrong right off the bat.

As for Cotto getting "found out"... found out about what?!?!? That he's been a bum all along?!? Get a grip, for chrissakes.

You know, for not wanting to be a "dick"... you're walking a very fine line.

Haha, walking a fine line? why cuz I am not agreeing with you? I never said I didnt like Cotto I am very much pro Cotto, I'm simply making a point as are you and I'm not calling you a dick for it. (Ok, you're right).

Maybe I jumped the gun in saying that every fighter has character, ok maybe not, but alot of fighters have the traits that you described about Cotto so why is Cotto so special? (A poster said Cotto had a strong character. You refuted that. I came back to tell you why I think Cotto has character. Nothing in there says I said Cotto is "special". Don't put words in my mouth).

What I said in regards to him being found out is more of a statement as to why people say Lacy's loss to JC was so devasting, maybe it was just that he cant compete at that level not that he had such a terrible loss, so why cant the same be said about Cotto? (That he can't compete at that level? Because of the one loss? I think we're jumping the gun on this one, don't you?)

I think my replies regarding this topic have been very "sensical" if you dont want to be tested and questioned about your replies then maybe you should not post them up. (What makes you the "tester and questioner" and me the "questionee"? You state your views, I state mine. I'm not here to convince you about anything).

You call them "anti-cotto" rantings, then what are yours pro-cotto rantings? The differance here is one major point, lets just say im pro-Margo and you are pro-cotto, I can see Margo's weaknesses and acknowledge his losses without excuse. You dont argue the loss(I'm glad you at least see that much). but you will not accept that maybe he is not fighter everyone thought he could/should be. The Margo fight was supposed to be Cotto's huge coming out party, I think even Arum was like shit I just fucked my boy up on this one. I dont doubt his pedigree, Cotto is a great fighter, but leave your mind open to the fact that maybe he's not at the level of you want him to be, as Im open to the fact that he may come back and beat Margo on the rematch.(Ironically, I'm not even that sure that Cotto could beat Margarito in a rematch. Sometimes it's a matter of style, and Cotto did everything humanly possible to try to beat Margarito but came up short. He'd need a major strategy change to pull off a victory in a rematch).[/quote]

See my comments above.

First of all I'll say this, you're a great poster and I've enjoyed the debate this far.

Not too much else to say about the other points except for one, to me If I am proving a point or making a statement, it's because I want to convince you of my point of view, I test and question your points of view because I want to convince you of mine, you can and have tested and questioned mine as well as you should, to prove your points.

[Onix]

After the Fight Cottos walk back to the dressing room spoke volumes as did his posture.

As was the fact that he did'nt give a post fight interview. Kind of a sign of poor sportsmanship...IE. poor character huh Titofan

[TitoFan]

After the Fight Cottos walk back to the dressing room spoke volumes as did his posture.

As was the fact that he did'nt give a post fight interview. Kind of a sign of poor sportsmanship...IE. poor character huh Titofan

I'm sure somehow it was the interviewer's fault (ha-ha).

[boozeboxer]

After the Fight Cottos walk back to the dressing room spoke volumes as did his posture.

As was the fact that he did'nt give a post fight interview. Kind of a sign of poor sportsmanship...IE. poor character huh Titofan

An undefeated fighter just got the shit kicked out of him and had his world shook. I think it is shitty to expect so much out of a person. Also when someone gets manhandled: what the fuck are they supposed to say?? I don't even know why they drill guys that get beat bad after a fight. Shit it is time to move on.

[Onix]

After the Fight Cottos walk back to the dressing room spoke volumes as did his posture.

As was the fact that he did'nt give a post fight interview. Kind of a sign of poor sportsmanship...IE. poor character huh Titofan

An undefeated fighter just got the shit kicked out of him and had his world shook. I think it is shitty to expect so much out of a person. Also when someone gets manhandled: what the fuck are they supposed to say?? I don't even know why they drill guys that get beat bad after a fight. Shit it is time to move on.

Titofan made a point to note that Cotto had strong moral charater and listed out the great attributes that Cotto has to showcase that character...shouldnt good sportsmanship be the #1 attribute a champion should have? Even Floyd shows a great sportsmanship after every fight.

Pavlik, undefeated, gave an interview.
Kessler, undefeated, gave an interview.
Hatton, undefeated, gave an interview.
This list can go on and on.

I was trying to heckle Titofan more than anything, but the more I think about it...the more I do believe that this was a chink in his "character" armor.

[CFH]

As was the fact that he did'nt give a post fight interview. Kind of a sign of poor sportsmanship...IE. poor character huh Titofan

An undefeated fighter just got the shit kicked out of him and had his world shook. I think it is shitty to expect so much out of a person. Also when someone gets manhandled: what the fuck are they supposed to say?? I don't even know why they drill guys that get beat bad after a fight. Shit it is time to move on.

Titofan made a point to note that Cotto had strong moral charater and listed out the great attributes that Cotto has to showcase that character...shouldnt good sportsmanship be the #1 attribute a champion should have? Even Floyd shows a great sportsmanship after every fight.

Pavlik, undefeated, gave an interview.
Kessler, undefeated, gave an interview.
Hatton, undefeated, gave an interview.
This list can go on and on.

I was trying to heckle Titofan more than anything, but the more I think about it...the more I do believe that this was a chink in his "character" armor.

Good sportsmanship is nice, but it has nothing to do with being a great fighter.

[Onix]

An undefeated fighter just got the shit kicked out of him and had his world shook. I think it is shitty to expect so much out of a person. Also when someone gets manhandled: what the fuck are they supposed to say?? I don't even know why they drill guys that get beat bad after a fight. Shit it is time to move on.

Titofan made a point to note that Cotto had strong moral charater and listed out the great attributes that Cotto has to showcase that character...shouldnt good sportsmanship be the #1 attribute a champion should have? Even Floyd shows a great sportsmanship after every fight.

Pavlik, undefeated, gave an interview.
Kessler, undefeated, gave an interview.
Hatton, undefeated, gave an interview.
This list can go on and on.

I was trying to heckle Titofan more than anything, but the more I think about it...the more I do believe that this was a chink in his "character" armor.

Good sportsmanship is nice, but it has nothing to do with being a great fighter.

To be a good fighter no, to demostrate championship character yes.

[amat]

Onix you're usually pretty level headed you seem not to like Cotto that's fine. Um, you do know you don't know the guy right? He gave you what he gave you in the fight, made it Saddoboxing.com's fight of the year even. That's what you should be judging him on because you don't know him, you can't judge his character.

When Tex Cobb got beat the shit out of by Larry Holmes, he gave a monologue afterwards that would have made Johnny Carson proud. Does that mean anything about the fighter? Does that mean he was ready to come back better then ever? Did he?

It's silly for you to list off lal these guys who gave interviews after losing, they aren't the same guys you have to judge each separately or better yet just not judge them at all. Erik Morales threw a water bottle at MAB when MAB was trying to hug Morales, does that say anything about Morales or MAB and their ability to carry on afterward? No it didn't.

This whole thing is silly, even trying to judge a fighter's character is silly because we're not fighters we can't do that if we don't know them. If you do want to judge, that's a stupid thing to judge because that doesn't even show if one has character or not. It just shows he didn't feel in the mood to be in the ring after the fight, there were people saying he was sobbing in the locker room as HBO went off air.

Arturo Gatti did the same thing after losing to Alfonzo Gomez he went and hid in his locker room for an hour or so before his wife got him to go on camera and say that he was retiring. Does that tell us anything abuot Gatti? No not really.

Cotto looked like one of the best fighters in the world for 5 rounds, looked like a coming out party of all coming out parties but fights aren't 5 rounds, momentum shifted a few times from round to round from exchange to exchange and he came out on the losing end because he didn't have it in him in the end to take the punishment anymore. He was spent and that's just what happened in the fight we don't know how that will be used if it will be used at all in Cotto coming back. The title says Cotto Might Never Be The Same.

Well that is the obvious here. He might not. Or he might come back better then ever. Or he might not be the same we don't know but it's really just stating the obvious.

[Kirkland Laing]

How do we know that he has a strong "character"?

I dunno... depends how you define "character" in boxing. If you define it as someone who is dedicated to the ring and sport and always gives his all in the ring... if you define it as someone who does not need to trash-talk anyone, but rather let's his fists do the talking... if you define it as someone who takes on all opponents they put in front of him... if you define it as someone who refuses to make excuses when he is beaten... if you define it as someone who comports himself with class in and out of the ring...

Then yes... IMO, Cotto would qualify as having a strong character.

Does any of this help?

Ok you just described every fighter that is competitive in the sport, except for the trash talk part, so if they all have character what makes Cotto so special? and why can he bounce back from this one and Jeff Lacy not bounce back from from his loss to JC? Maybe its not that Lacy couldnt bounce back maybe it was like some other posters have said in the past about him, maybe he got "found out"...maybe Cotto got "found out" I'm not saying that specifically but the argument could be made for it.

Cotto has infinitely more boxing ability than Lacy. I don't think he'll have any problems coming back to what he was but I don't think he has any chance in a Margarito rematch.

[Onix]

Onix you're usually pretty level headed you seem not to like Cotto that's fine. Um, you do know you don't know the guy right? He gave you what he gave you in the fight, made it Saddoboxing.com's fight of the year even. That's what you should be judging him on because you don't know him, you can't judge his character.

When Tex Cobb got beat the shit out of by Larry Holmes, he gave a monologue afterwards that would have made Johnny Carson proud. Does that mean anything about the fighter? Does that mean he was ready to come back better then ever? Did he?

It's silly for you to list off lal these guys who gave interviews after losing, they aren't the same guys you have to judge each separately or better yet just not judge them at all. Erik Morales threw a water bottle at MAB when MAB was trying to hug Morales, does that say anything about Morales or MAB and their ability to carry on afterward? No it didn't.

This whole thing is silly, even trying to judge a fighter's character is silly because we're not fighters we can't do that if we don't know them. If you do want to judge, that's a stupid thing to judge because that doesn't even show if one has character or not. It just shows he didn't feel in the mood to be in the ring after the fight, there were people saying he was sobbing in the locker room as HBO went off air.

Arturo Gatti did the same thing after losing to Alfonzo Gomez he went and hid in his locker room for an hour or so before his wife got him to go on camera and say that he was retiring. Does that tell us anything abuot Gatti? No not really.

Cotto looked like one of the best fighters in the world for 5 rounds, looked like a coming out party of all coming out parties but fights aren't 5 rounds, momentum shifted a few times from round to round from exchange to exchange and he came out on the losing end because he didn't have it in him in the end to take the punishment anymore. He was spent and that's just what happened in the fight we don't know how that will be used if it will be used at all in Cotto coming back. The title says Cotto Might Never Be The Same.

Well that is the obvious here. He might not. Or he might come back better then ever. Or he might not be the same we don't know but it's really just stating the obvious.

You are absolutely right and that has been my point all along. This whole thing about character came about becuase of the following post:

Originally Posted by pavlikfan
i think if theres anything that can be said about miguel cotto, its that hes obviously got a very strong character. the loss he suffered against margarito would have finished alot of fighters am sure, but i doubt it will cotto. i see him dusting himself off and getting straight back to business in 2009. the guys a warrior.

How do we know that he has a strong "character"?

That was Pavlikfans post and my reply and question to him, following that there was:

Originally Posted by OnixAA
Quote:
Originally Posted by pavlikfan
i think if theres anything that can be said about miguel cotto, its that hes obviously got a very strong character. the loss he suffered against margarito would have finished alot of fighters am sure, but i doubt it will cotto. i see him dusting himself off and getting straight back to business in 2009. the guys a warrior.


How do we know that he has a strong "character"?
I dunno... depends how you define "character" in boxing. If you define it as someone who is dedicated to the ring and sport and always gives his all in the ring... if you define it as someone who does not need to trash-talk anyone, but rather let's his fists do the talking... if you define it as someone who takes on all opponents they put in front of him... if you define it as someone who refuses to make excuses when he is beaten... if you define it as someone who comports himself with class in and out of the ring...

Then yes... IMO, Cotto would qualify as having a strong character.

Does any of this help?

That was posted by Titofan. So the statement you make to me is actually the question I had asked to begin with. We dont know anything about these people personally, we dont what goes on in the mind of a boxer so we cant speak to their peronal charater. However if Titofan or Pavlikfan want to make the assessment that Cotto does have strong character then back it up and then be prepared to address when this "Character" is brought to question by his actions.

The list I made were all fighters who had lost their undefeated status and still were sportsman enough to give a post fight interview in the ring. That to me showed strong character.

I am not anti-cotto I have made several statements about that already, I just dont see him with the same eyes that Cotto fans do, but I also know that while I think Tony is the Shit and he is currently my fav. fighter I dont see him the way a Cotto or Pac or Mayweather fan sees them. I like to believe I am more objective than that, of course its hard to be objective with your own posts and thoughts.

Besides if I dont play devils advocate, this post would have died and I would be bored reading about Pac all day.

[TitoFan]

I was trying to heckle Titofan more than anything, but the more I think about it...the more I do believe that this was a chink in his "character" armor.

And by golly... if there's any chinks to be found in Cotto's armor, we can all count on you to find it, eh?