The Saddoboxing.com Pound for Pound Debate.

Compiled by Jim Cawkwell.

It has been a wild year coming into the final stretch and as usual, we have had plenty of surprises along the way and it is not over yet. Legends have fallen, stars have been born, some careers have stumbled off track and others have exploded back onto the scene. In the words of fictional Roman gladiator Maximus Decimus Meridius: “Are you not entertained?” I find it hardly believable that any boxing fan could have witnessed the boxing year of 2004 and be disappointed. However, even if you are unimpressed, enough has happened in the boxing world so far to warrant a revising of the mythical pound for pound list. I will provide my top ten pound for pound list, but not before our saddoboxing.com readers weigh in with their opinions.

Taansend:

Firstly, we know that pound for pound is subjective. Do you reward someone on achievement or potential, or a balance of both? Do you go for punch power or skill, longevity or last fight? Most of all, do you like they way they carry themselves? I think that all of this is relevant. Only one of my fighters has lost in his last three fights (a close decision) and that was revenged with a devastating second round KO next time out. Here’s my pound for pound top ten and it’s correct (as far as I’m concerned).

1. Bernard Hopkins: Nineteen defenses of the middleweight title, first fighter to hold all four major belts, only one loss in the last sixteen years, and that was to a speedy Roy Jones. Champion for almost ten years, only man to KO De La Hoya, only man to beat (and KO) Tito and he still looks great in his 40th year.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.: Undefeated in thirty-two fights, thirteen of them “world’ title fights. Hardly ever loses a round. Can box, punch, move, dance, stay in the pocket, make the other guy miss then counter with pin point accuracy. Look at how many of his opponents have done well since losing to ‘Pretty Boy’ and then look at how easily he beat them.

3. Erik Morales: First won the title just days after his 21st birthday against the great Daniel Zaragoza. Beaten every man he’s faced. Destroyed Junior Jones and Kevin Kelly, and has beaten McCullough, Barrera, Chi, Ayala, Espadas, Chavez and Hernandez; all of them “world’ champions. Won titles in three weights.

4. Manny Pacquiao: Unbeaten in over five years (weight contributed towards last loss), won titles in three weights, KO’d Julio, Lucero and Barrera. Controversial draw with Marquez. Arguably the most exciting fighter around.

5. Juan Manuel Márquez: Many thought he won against Pac-Man, many thought he lost. Even without that fight, he has only lost once in the last eleven years (to the very able Freddie Norwood, on points). In the last two years he has KO’d Robbie Peden (top contender), Manuel Medina (went on to beat Scott Harrison) and Derrick Gainer (run Forrest run).

6. Veeraphol Sahaprom: Bantamweight champion for six years. Only one loss in forty-eight fights and that was to Nana Konadu, an excellent African fighter. Made around fourteen defenses. Only fights at home, but so did Roy Jones.

7. Rafael Marquez: Burst onto the scene with two wins over Mark Johnson, the second one by KO and Johnson had not lost in eleven years and was considered pound for pound by many. Brutally KO’d an undefeated Tim Austin and is up there with Pacquiao as most exciting champion around.

8. Diego Corrales: He has rebounded well after loss to Mayweather and personal problems. Can punch or box and lost only twice in forty-one fights. Avenged cut loss to Casamayor, now looking to unify lightweight division before seeking rematch against Mayweather.

9. Antonio Tarver: Has beaten most of the top fighters in a weak light heavyweight division. Avenged a close points loss by destroying Roy Jones Jr. but needs to fight more often. Thirty-sex years old next month so not many fights left.

10. Ronald ‘Winky’ Wright: Should be ranked higher but has lost all momentum of Mosley win. Easily beat Shane but Sugar has not chalked up a convincing win in forty months. Old school skills, a rematch with Mosley looms, if he can get past that he should look for Hopkins. Needs to be more loyal to his staff.

Anyone wondering why Felix Trinidad is not on my list? He will be if he wins another fight. One fight in three years is not enough for me.

Clydey_2_Times:

1. Erik Morales: Wins over Junior Jones, Barrera, a prime Ayala, Chi and Hernandez all proved, at one time or another, that Morales is the best out there, in my opinion. On top of his undoubted boxing skills, he has a chin to match the likes of Wayne McCullough, and he can mix it up if the occasion calls for it.

2. Bernard Hopkins: Not just wins over two of the best boxers of the modern era, in Trinidad and De La Hoya, but KO wins combined with his remarkable consistency make him number one with the majority. He’s just edged out by Morales in my list, though.

3. Floyd Mayweather Jr.: Has such variety in his game that the number one spot is virtually guaranteed at some point. With the light welterweight division heating up like no other, a career defining fight is on the cards in the near future.

4. Ronald ‘Winky’ Wright:You can argue all you like about Mosley and how he hasn’t been the same for a while, but this should not take away from Wright, who utterly destroyed Mosley in a very one-sided fight. He also got a raw deal against Vargas, in my opinion. On paper, he perhaps shouldn’t be so high on the list; however, things are not always clear cut in boxing. The man simply oozes class.

5. Juan Manuel Marquez: In my opinion, he won the fight against Pacquiao. Had he won without having suffered that nightmare first round, it would have been a wonderful scalp to hang from his belt. The fact that he clawed his way back after the aforementioned first round makes his performance that much more remarkable. His performance against Manuel Medina is further evidence that this man belongs in any top ten. Add to that his enviable record and I had to put him in my top five.

6. Manny Pacqiuao: Edged out by Marquez due to the boxing lesson he endured post 1st round. Win over Barrera cemented his reputation as a very dangerous, hard hitting and, up until that point, underrated fighter. His record is marred only by two losses earlier in his career to fighters not fit to lace his boots. Also, he is one of the most energetic fighters out there, maintaining a pace most opponents simply can’t handle.

7. Felix Trinidad: His lack of ring activity should not take away from his undoubted ability. He was, at the very least, top five before his ‘retirement’, and his fight against Mayorga proved that he had lost none of the old magic. Thus, he has to be in the top ten.

8. Rafael Marquez: Explosive fighter dominating a lacklustre division. That is not his fault; therefore, he should not be overlooked. He has destroyed any real contenders in his division. Destined to move up and on to greater things.

9. Diego Corrales: Fantasic year for ‘Chico’ as he first defeated the world class Casamayor and then pummeled the undefeated Freitas into submission. A candidate for fighter of the year.

10. Marco Antonio Barrera: Just as Roy Jones loss to Tarver didn’t immediately knock him out of the top ten, Barrera should not be dimissed on the basis of one off night. He bounced back to stop Paulie Ayala. Although Ayala is definitely on the slide, he is far from a mug and Barrera was the first man to stop him. Barrera’s other achievements are common knowledge.

Britkid:

1. Bernard Hopkins: The best middleweight in the world since 1994. Undisputed world champion since his victory over Trinidad; and with the win over De La Hoya establishes himself in the top ten middleweights of all time.

2. Erik Morales: Amazing numbers, seems to be at the peak of his powers. Has an uncanny knack of rebounding from perceived poor performances with a superb one, as the teak tough Hernandez recently found out.

3. Floyd Mayweather Jr.: The most talented individual in boxing at the moment. And now he is a 140 pounder, he has the opposition to show he can top this list in due course.

4. Ronald ‘Winky’ Wright: Never liked him, always underrated him, but finally clocked on to what a superb fighter he was, after the masterful job he did on Mosley.

5. Antonio Tarver: Unfortunately because he turned pro late, we perhaps will never find out how good he could have been. But the two performances against Roy Jones Jr. showed glimpses of what great skills he processes.

6. Kostya Tszyu: A world class fighter for over a decade; has proven time again he is the number one fighter in one of boxing’s best divisions. But with the likes of Cotto, Hatton and Mayweather snapping at his heels, time will tell if he still has it, and that’s only if he manages to beat Mitchell again! What a division.

7. Oscar de la Hoya: Perhaps we will never see him in a ring again, but while he still has not officially retired, the great man deserves a place on this list.

8. Manny Pacquiao: Although I believe Marquez is probably better, Pacquiao’s resume is far more impressive, so he gets this slot on the list.

9. Cory Spinks: Just continues to improve with every fight. Does not have anything great, but has no big weaknesses.

10. James Toney: Although I believe he will get blown away when/if he faces any of the so-called ‘super’ heavyweights around today, pound for pound he still deserves a place on this list. He has been world class since 1991, and has met in that time virtually everyone that matters. Victories over Holyfield and Jirov, show Toney can still put the ‘lights out’ on decent opposition.

Miron_Lang:

1. Bernard Hopkins: KO wins over De La Hoya and Trinidad cemented his claim as the best middleweight of his time. Victories over respected champions Keith Holmes and William Joppy makes his resume a lot more impressive.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.: Performances against Diego Corrales and Phillip Ndou mean that he deserves the number one spot but his failure to dominate Jose Luis Castillo gave Hopkins that spot. Soon to be number one if he hurdles any of the following fighters: Vivian Harris, Kostya Tszyu, Sharmba Mitchell and Ricky Hatton.

3. Erik Morales: Junior Jones, Barrera, Ayala, Hernandez, Jesus Chavez, Injin Chi, McCullogh. BIG names and Morales slew them. Victories over PACMAN below or Corrales above depending on performances of my pound for pound choices for number one and number two might give Morales a chance at the top.

4. Emmanuel Pacquiao: Easily the hardest hitter in his weight class plus he has a blinding speed that seems also unrivaled at his division. Looked one dimensional in his ‘victory’ against Marquez, but didn’t anybody remember his two previous performances against Barrera and Lucero?

5. Juan Manuel Marquez: His classic ‘rise from the dead performance’ against PACMAN catapults him to this position. Notable victim: Speedy Derrick Gainer and former champion Manuel Medina.

6. Ronald ‘Winky’ Wright: Convincing victory over Mosley is enough to land this spot. Also he put in a good performance against Fernando Vargas, a fight many felt he won.

7. Cory Spinks: Beat Mayorga who beat Forrest twice who beat Mosley twice who beat De La Hoya twice who beat Julio Cesar Chavez twice!!

8. Diego Corrales: Impressive against the previously undefeated Freitas. He can go up a few spots with a victory against an Erik Morales or Jose Luis Castillo.

9. Rafael Marquez : Exactly the opposite of his brother. Rafael goes for the kill and initiates exchanges. Notable performances are against Tim Austin and Mark Johnson Johnson.

10. Jose Luis Castillo: His performance against Juan Lazcano is pretty hard to ignore. Plus, his first fight with Floyd Mayweather Jr. attracted many Floyd unbelievers to make an issue out it.

Gunjack21:

1. Bernard Hopkins: Undisputed king of middleweights. This guy is absolutely the best fighter right now. He beat two of the best pound for pound in De La Hoya and Tito Trinidad… his only loss came in the hands of the great Roy Jones Jr.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.: They say he has not faced enough competition in his division but who can blame him? The guy is an elite fighter and nobody in his division came close in beating him so he deserves to be number two.

3. Erik Morales: Definitely a good all around fighter, a champion in the122 and126 pound weight classes and now at 130 pounds, he is almost unstoppable right now. A fight with Pacquiao or Mayweather is definitely a mouth-watering prospect.

4. Manny Pacquiao: Undisputedly the hardest hitting in his division, ‘Pacman’ is definitely an exciting fighter and a prospect to be the next number one pound for pound.A natural bantamweight, he is a former flyweight and bantamweight champion. Now he is considered as the people’s featherweight champion because fight fans love his no fear attitude.

5. Ronald ‘Winky’ Wright: He was never seriously regarded as a good champion but he proved them wrong when he beat Shane Mosley convincingly. With that big win he deserves to be in this list.

6.Cory Spinks: The next big thing in this profession. He is definitely proving his worth and he will definitely stay here in the list for a long period.

7. Diego Corrales: A power puncher and he has a good reach advantage, Diego will be another force to reckon with in his division. He beat the unbeaten prospect in Acelino Freitas.

8. Juan Manuel Marquez: A counter-punching technician, he was impressive when he resurrected after suffering three knockdowns in round one against Pacquiao. This guy is one tough fighter but his last fight against Orlando Salido was forgettable.

9. Rafael Marquez: Another hard-hitting puncher, this guy is totally impressive he will remain here in the list for a long time. A truly exciting fighter.

10. James Toney: A fat man but definitely a good boxer. With the current heavyweights right now, I will not be surprised if he sweeps this division.

Greig:

1.Floyd Mayweather Jr: Quite simply, the best there is. I don’t know how he’ll fare at 140 pounds, but prior to that, he was the most complete fighter in the game. Try to muscle him, he’ll outslick you. Try to outslick him and he’ll muscle you.

2. Erik Morales: Great chin, great heart, great tools, great fights = great fighter.

3. Juan Manuel Marquez: Only recently achieved long overdue recognition, but has quietly beat up on every decent featherweight (who would fight him), in the world for the last seven years.

4. Diego Corrales: Great performances against Casamayor (both fights) and Freitas have confirmed that he is the real deal. Now that he has put his personal troubles behind him I would love to see a rematch at 140 pounds with Floyd Mayweather Jr.

5. Oscar De La Hoya: The beautiful thing about pound for pound lists is that weight doesn’t matter and weight is precisely the reason he lost to Hopkins. If Hopkins was a natural 147 pounder, I don’t think he could live with De La Hoya’s hand and foot speed, or power at that weight.

6. Felix Trinidad: Blistering display against Mayorga confirmed one thing: Tito is back. Devastating combinations, awesome hand speed and great heart make Felix one of the best in the business. Would be much better suited at 154 pounds. No one could live with him there.

7. Manny Pacquiao: Manny’s display in that first round against Marquez showed how awesome a puncher he is, even though he was clearly outfought for the rest of the fight. The destruction of Barrera was masterful.

8. Kostya Tszyu: He’s in here more on reputation than anything else at the moment. After November 6th it could be a different story. But, the facts remain, Tszyu has beaten every decent 140 pound fighter in the last seven years.

9. Bernard Hopkins: A freak of nature who gets better with age and has ruled the middleweights for a decade. Would be rated higher if a) the middleweights of the last ten years had not been so god-awful and b) his most notable wins were against smaller guys moving up. Hopkins could have guaranteed his legacy by moving up and fighting the likes of Nigel Benn, Roy Jones Jr. (again) and Joe Calzaghes, but he never did.

10. Miguel Cotto: Premature I know, but this kid is boxing’s future, and I think, at this moment in time, he would beat any junior welterweight on the planet, aside from Tszyu. Again, my perception of Tszyu may be changed drastically after his next fight.

Metpt176:

1. Bernard Hopkins: He’s been on top for ten years now in his division…that’s why. He totally screwed up Trinidad & KO’d Oscar with a body shot. Hopkins. Always Hopkins, even if he gets defeated soon, he will have had all of the belts and time on his side.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.: Mayweather always puts on a good show and he is still undefeated. I think Floyd is going to stay the king of his hill for many years to come.

3. Erik Morales: As much as I have talked about Morales and as much excitement as Morales brings, that’s an easy call, ranking him below Mayweather was hard for me, but Mayweather is the man.

4. Miguel Cotto: Awesome. I like him as much as I do Morales, but he is just coming up.

5. Howard Eastman and Joe Calzaghe: Two in the same spot? Not enough press or fights in the U.S. for me to decide on who I think should be tops in this spot. They are both great fighters that I would love to see step up.

6. Ronald ‘Winky’ Wright: In his weight he’s tops. He should have tried for a Tito fight though.

7. Tito Trinidad: If Tito looks as good against everyone as he did against Mayorga, Tito will move up the list and fast!

8. Oscar de La Hoya: Even though he has lost to Hopkins and Mosley, Oscar is still good for the sport and I think that he is the best in his proper division which is several drops down. Take your lumps, swallow your pride, and move back down.

9. Manny Pacquiao: Fiery and exciting. Good for the sport if he can back up what he is pressing. Juan Manuel Marquez might be able to beat him next go around.

10. Diego Corrales: He’s got a good record and he is number one in his division. I’m not totally sold on him yet due to his lack of skills, but he’s got power and can throw a punch. Time will tell.

JimC:

1. Bernard Hopkins: If not for the ambition of Oscar de la Hoya, we might still have been talking about crazy old coot Hopkins, rocking back and forth on his middleweight porch with an ear of corn in his mouth, tellingall passers-by to keep moving on. Instead, Hopkins began the year by beating Robert Allen, something he has done twice before. Then he knocked out De La Hoya, something nobody has ever done. Finally, he is on course to achieve twenty middleweight title defenses, something perhaps nobody will ever reach again. The people might not like it, the system might not like it but no man has been able to move Hopkins in a decade and he is the best fighter in the world today.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.: ‘Pretty Boy’ Floyd was supposed to have grown up and left all of his crazy days behind him. Despite the fact that he’s spent this year being mentioned as much in courtrooms as he has in the boxing press, he just keeps marching on towards the greatness he seems inevitable to achieve. With technique, style, poise, speed and a sting in his shots that manages to keep naturally bigger fighters in check, Mayweather is on the scene in the light welterweight division having disposed of the best of the lightweight and junior lightweight divisions. No fighter is invincible, but Mayweather looks as close to the total package as there is in world boxing today. Being still so young and with so many great opponents in front of him, Floyd Mayweather Jr. will one day rule the boxing world.

3. Erik Morales: Tijuana’s finest is feared and revered for very good reasons. After dominating the super bantamweight division, the featherweight division and now holding two thirds of the junior lightweight title, Morales will be remembered as one of the great warriors in the proud Mexican boxing tradition. However, the show is definitely not over for ‘El Terrible.’ Further confirmation of his incredible legacy will begin with unfinished business in a third fight with compatriot Marco Antonio Barrera. Morales has ruled the lower weight classes with an iron fist and an incomparable fighting heart, so whoever crosses his path had better be ready for nothing less than that which he carries with him to the ring every time he fights. Total war.

4. Diego Corrales: Few fighters can boast to have emerged from a devastating first loss against a most bitter of rivals and incarceration, only to return to the ring and resume the same dominance and even greater success. Corrales’ second coming has brought him to a unified lightweight championship and the respect of the fans and his peers alike. Debatably stopped on medical grounds due to severe cuts inside his mouth against Joel Casamayor, Corrales would not be denied and out-boxed the stylish Cuban in a rematch before forcing the previously unbeaten Acelino Freitas to quit in his last fight. With a physique and natural firepower that should translate well to higher weights, Corrales may look to the light welterweight division and Floyd Mayweather to avenge his one true loss.

5. Manny Pacquiao: I don’t care how many writers dress it up or how often the Nevada State athletic commission tried to wash away the stain of controversy surrounding Marquez- Pacquiao I; Manny Pacquiao, but for a one point mistake by one judge, beat Juan Manuel Marquez and should now own the unified featherweight title. That fact, accompanied by Pacquiao’s WBC flyweight and IBF super bantamweight titles combine to earn him this place ahead of Marquez. Both Marquez and Pacquiao have taken the path of least resistance since their epic fight in May, but their rematch should more than atone for their temporary respite. If Pacquiao can produce more than a missile of a straight left hand from his bag of tricks, he will be looking down at Marquez once more and perhaps on to Erik Morales.

6. Antonio Tarver: When truly shocking boxing moments are being discussed in years to come, Tarver’s name will echo resoundingly with boxing fans because of his second round, one punch knockout of Roy Jones Jr. Sadly for Tarver, journeyman champion Glen Johnson repeated that feat in nine rounds this past September, somewhat tarnishing thefinish on what was a lifelong quest for Tarver. At thirty-five years of age, Tarver has little time to waste and appears to already have signed to fight Johnson before Christmas to settle the matter of light heavyweight supremacy.

7. Kostya Tszyu: Tszyu’s inactivity has hurt his standing in these rankings but a sensational win against Sharmba Mitchell in November could quickly change that. Perhaps only age will succeed in separating Tszyu from his position as the best light welterweight in the world, something many excellent fighters have failed to achieve. Indications in Tszyu’s personal endeavors are that he is preparing for his life after boxing, but if he chooses to stay there is a wealth of great opposition for him to choose from and further elevate his standing. Pound for pound one of the hardest punchers in the sport with a shrewd boxing brain, a motivated Tszyu is an entirely dangerous entity.

8. Oscar de la Hoya: I cannot eliminate De La Hoya from this list, principally because of his career achievements that have, however contentiously, continued this year as he gathered his sixth world title in as many weight classes. In addition, there is the fact that aside from him there has barely been a single fighter to so consistently challenge the world’s best fighters. Even his stoppage loss to Hopkins is evidence of his willingness to risk himself for the sake of greatness. A warrior’s blood flows in De La Hoya’s veins and he can still be successful if he continues to box at the highest level. However, he has already proved himself beyond all reproach and we should appreciate him while he is here because when he does retire, the whole boxing world will feel it.

9. Cory Spinks: You might not like his slippery southpaw style, but you simply cannot argue with the results and they say that Cory Spinks is the undisputed welterweight champion having beaten both the irrepressible Ricardo Mayorga and Brooklyn badass Zab Judah. Spinks will have to aim higher than routine defenses against the likes of faded former champions Miguel Angel Gonzalez to gain ground on his peers in this list, but that is something he is quite capable of doing. A lot of fighters might think they can step up to Spinks and claim themselves a high prize, but he keeps winning comfortably enough and appears prepared to do so for a while yet.

10. Felix ‘Tito’ Trinidad: I was convinced that Trinidad was making a big mistake when he retired over two years ago, but what’s one mistake between friends, especially when they return and fight as if they never left? Trinidad probably cares little about those who are skeptical about his comeback, but then, he’s in the business of destroying world-class fighters and it is a happy coincidence that his ability to do so in devastating fashion has a way of convincing even the most cynical. I was one of those cynics, but I’m happy to have my opinion persuaded into change and Trinidad’s return provided a high that greatly compensates for the depths into which Roy Jones and Oscar de la Hoya have recently fallen. Not only is Trinidad’s inclusion adequate, but if he continues the way he left off, it will not be long before you will be able to scratch the zero away from the number one standing next to his name.

Honorable mentions.

Juan Manuel Marquez: He produced one of the greatest comebacks ever seen against Pacquiao but technically, he lost the fight and regardless of any evasive politics, the onus is on him to settle matters with Pacquiao and restore honor as one of Mexico’s finest champions.

Miguel Cotto: A dangerous young fighter to say the very least. Watching his progress as a novice professional was a pleasure and I am sure that witnessing his reign as a world champion over the next few years will be equally as gratifying.

Ronald ‘Winky’ Wright: The undisputed light middleweight champion of the world should be in the top ten list of pound for pound fighters, he is not but his own hands can alter that. Wright does not win any fight in devastating fashion, he is a boxer and a stylist and it will only be the quality and number of beaten opposition on his resume that will enhance his place here.

Arturo Gatti: Some observer’s feel that Gatti is approaching the twilight of his career and that his newly acquired WBC light welterweight title is a mere consolation prize for his many years of thrilling the boxing world whether he won his fights or lost them. Fans might be appalled at the notion of his self-preservation through a less aggressive style, but they need not fret for long, Gatti is a warrior through and through and his instincts and fighting heart will be value for money as long as he remains in the game.

We sincerely hope you enjoyed this pound for pound debate and that you will return to the site soon to check out more of them, or register your membership and get involved yourself.

Jim Cawkwell can be reached at jam2lis@sprint.ca