What do you think of Catch weights?

Never did like it. There was another analogy on another boxing forum where someone said asking another fighter to come down and meet at a catch weight is like Russel Crowe's character in Gladiator where he is fighting Joaquin Phoenix after Russel Crowe was stabbed in the back and poison prior to entering the colliseum to even the fight.

Famous fights like Leonard VS Lalonde for his Light heavyweight title where the guy was clearly weakened weighing in at 168 and Leonard KO him in the 9th. Delahoya making a 39 year old Bernard Hopkins come in at 158 for the middleweight championship, more than likely taking a cue from the original golden boy of the 80s, but it was a KO for Hopkins instead. And now there is a possibility a Cotto-Pacquiao at 142 for the Welterweight championships.

I have always loved this quote from Marvin Hagler, "If you wanna beat the champion, if you wanna take my titles I think you better come and take it."

And that's how I feel, if another fighter wants another fighter's titles fight him like a man and at his best.

So what are your opinion on catch weights?

Hate them. They're bad for the sport. There is no good reason why Pacquiao can't fight Cotto at 147. We have enough weight divisions without stupid catchweight fights being brought into play.

I think that the main reason we are seeing them now is because of money. There isn't enough star power in boxing in each division to just fight guys in your division to make money.. So Floyd took the big money to fight Oscar and moved up in weight.. Manny moved up in weight and Oscar dropped weight to make money, etc..

Although there are exceptions, like Taylor Pavlik II.. Taylor knew it was getting harder and harder to make 160, so he felt that if he lost, he would be a better fighter at a higher weight.. so they fought at 166.. and now taylor hasn't gone back down to middleweight ever since then..

I think that Catch weights are a great option to have.. BUT, the way that they are being used in the sport today is abusing that option.. normally there is not much "meeting in the middle", and someone is gaining/dropping more than the other which then allows people to come up with excuses.. "he gained too much weight and didn't bring his power with him" and/or "he was weight drained from sucking so much weight".

I heard the fight is gonna be somewhere 143-144. Pacquiao's best weight is at 140, and Cotto at 147. And they have to meet in the middle. Its a simple math.

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

Hate them. They're bad for the sport. There is no good reason why Pacquiao can't fight Cotto at 147. We have enough weight divisions without stupid catchweight fights being brought into play.

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This.

It's all about money. If Pacquiao wasn't dangling a multi-million dollar carrot in front of Cotto's nose this fight would never happen. Honestly, unless it's at 147 I will give Pac very little credit for beating Mosley or Cotto and I hope others do the same. It isn't even necessary IMO, Pac would beat Cotto if they fought at any weight from 147 up.

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Originally Posted by Quinito

I heard the fight is gonna be somewhere 143-144. Pacquiao's best weight is at 140, and Cotto at 147. And they have to meet in the middle. Its a simple math.

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That's completely bogus logic though. If two guys are only truly effective at different weight divisions, then they shouldn't fight period. Calderon's best weight is 106, so the simple math would dictate that if he fought Pacquiao it should occur at 123 pounds right? Except no real fan want's to see a fight where both guys give up huge ground just to cash in off name recognition. If Cotto can't go below 147 without being weight drained, and Pacquiao doesn't think he can beat Miguel above 143 or whatever he wants, then it's just a tainted fight no matter what the outcome, and basically meaningless. I personally think Pacquiao could beat him handily at 147, so he should make the move up and give it a shot. If not every fight he has from now on could be a catchweight.. Mayweather or Mosley will want the fight at Welter as well, is he going to demand that they all come down in weight to fight him?

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Quinito

I heard the fight is gonna be somewhere 143-144. Pacquiao's best weight is at 140, and Cotto at 147. And they have to meet in the middle. Its a simple math.

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That's completely bogus logic though. If two guys are only truly effective at different weight divisions, then they shouldn't fight period. Calderon's best weight is 106, so the simple math would dictate that if he fought Pacquiao it should occur at 123 pounds right? Except no real fan want's to see a fight where both guys give up huge ground just to cash in off name recognition. If Cotto can't go below 147 without being weight drained, and Pacquiao doesn't think he can beat Miguel above 143 or whatever he wants, then it's just a tainted fight no matter what the outcome, and basically meaningless. I personally think Pacquiao could beat him handily at 147, so he should make the move up and give it a shot. If not every fight he has from now on could be a catchweight.. Mayweather or Mosley will want the fight at Welter as well, is he going to demand that they all come down in weight to fight him?

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:coolclick:

There really is no point in catchweights, this is why there are 15 divisions in Boxing (I'm not counting the last two Min. Weight and Light Fly) to avoid catchweights. If there were only 8 Divisions I could may'be see a catchweight here and there, but nowadays there doesn't need to be catchweights. If the Cotto-Pacquiao fight is going to be fought around 143-144, then it's a Welterweight fight. I don't care if they call it a catchweight or not. It's above the Jr. Welterweight limit and it's not passed the Welterweigh limit. So, tht means it's a Welterweight fight, fuck catchweights.

Not sure how i feel about them. They do leave a ton of room for excuses for the looser. If your best weight is at 140 then fight the guys there, the moment one of these guys loose the weight will be the first excuse. I know we want big fights but if the guys are fighting at weights they aren't the best in then you're just wasting our time. It's always all good before the fight, then after....

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

Hate them. They're bad for the sport. There is no good reason why Pacquiao can't fight Cotto at 147. We have enough weight divisions without stupid catchweight fights being brought into play.

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This.

It's all about money. If Pacquiao wasn't dangling a multi-million dollar carrot in front of Cotto's nose this fight would never happen. Honestly, unless it's at 147 I will give Pac very little credit for beating Mosley or Cotto and I hope others do the same. It isn't even necessary IMO, Pac would beat Cotto if they fought at any weight from 147 up.

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I feel pretty strongly about this. Seriously if Pacquiao wants to fight the Welters he should do it in their weightclass. If he wants to fight at 140, go fight Bradley or Edwin Valero. What pisses me off about it is if both Cotto & Mosley tell Pacquiao to fuck off, Pacquiao has to take a smaller payday to fight someone the world doesn't care about or just make the damn fight. Its not like Floyd is going to accept a 60-40 cut in Manny's favour.

People criticize Floyd alot, but when he fought Oscar he went to 154 and fought him at his natural weightclass. He didn't request a weight drained Oscar to step in the ring.

I've said this many times before, if all parties agreed to have a fight at a certain weight (regular weight class, catchweight or otherwise) then there's NO PROBLEM AT ALL... If a boxer agreed to fight at THAT WEIGHT then he believes that HE CAN WIN the fight at THAT WEIGHT... end of...
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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

Hate them. They're bad for the sport. There is no good reason why Pacquiao can't fight Cotto at 147. We have enough weight divisions without stupid catchweight fights being brought into play.

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This.

It's all about money. If Pacquiao wasn't dangling a multi-million dollar carrot in front of Cotto's nose this fight would never happen. Honestly, unless it's at 147 I will give Pac very little credit for beating Mosley or Cotto and I hope others do the same. It isn't even necessary IMO, Pac would beat Cotto if they fought at any weight from 147 up.

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I feel pretty strongly about this. Seriously if Pacquiao wants to fight the Welters he should do it in their weightclass. If he wants to fight at 140, go fight Bradley or Edwin Valero. What pisses me off about it is if both Cotto & Mosley tell Pacquiao to fuck off, Pacquiao has to take a smaller payday to fight someone the world doesn't care about or just make the damn fight. Its not like Floyd is going to accept a 60-40 cut in Manny's favour.

People criticize Floyd alot, but when he fought Oscar he went to 154 and fought him at his natural weightclass. He didn't request a weight drained Oscar to step in the ring.

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This just showed that Team PAC did a very good job in negotiating the PAC-Hoya fight... It could also show that PAC has more negotiating power and could be that Hoya is in need to make the fight more...

I think PAC also got a better purse split (with Hoya) as compared to what Floyd got in his Hoya fight...
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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

I've said this many times before, if all parties agreed to have a fight at a certain weight (regular weight class, catchweight or otherwise) then there's NO PROBLEM AT ALL... If a boxer agreed to fight at THAT WEIGHT then he believes that HE CAN WIN the fight at THAT WEIGHT... end of...
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So you're supporting Pacquiao's stance :o. I'm stunned.

Seriously what is the point of having weightclasses if fighters keeping breaking those barriers? If Pacquiao wants to fight a Welterweight for a Welterweight World Title, then he should do so at 147. If he doesn't, then he should stay at 140 and fight a 140lber.

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

I've said this many times before, if all parties agreed to have a fight at a certain weight (regular weight class, catchweight or otherwise) then there's NO PROBLEM AT ALL... If a boxer agreed to fight at THAT WEIGHT then he believes that HE CAN WIN the fight at THAT WEIGHT... end of...
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So you're supporting Pacquiao's stance :o. I'm stunned.

Seriously what is the point of having weightclasses if fighters keeping breaking those barriers? If Pacquiao wants to fight a Welterweight for a Welterweight World Title, then he should do so at 147. If he doesn't, then he should stay at 140 and fight a 140lber.

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If PAC and Cotto will agree to fight at a catchweight of 143, do you think there could be some group who can successfully protest that this fight should not happen at that catchweight?? :confused:

Now I won't criticize Pacman for fighting Oscar at 147 because you can't expect Manny to jump 3 weight classes and meet him at 154, but for the Cotto fight where it's 1 weight class and Pacman in my opinion has a good shot of beating Cotto then fight him at 147, fighting someone that's weight drain is a very cowardly move. Don't make the fight if you think you can't beat an opponent at their best with your boxing skills. The fight if made at a catchweight is a farce.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Now I won't criticize Pacman for fighting Oscar at 147 because you can't expect Manny to jump 3 weight classes and meet him at 154, but for the Cotto fight where it's 1 weight class and Pacman in my opinion has a good shot of beating Cotto then fight him at 147, fighting someone that's weight drain is a very cowardly move. Don't make the fight if you think you can't beat an opponent at their best with your boxing skills. The fight if made at a catchweight is a farce.

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Assumptions:

1. Cotto can't beat PAC at 140.
2. PAC can't beat Cotto at 147.
3. Cotto can beat PAC at 143/144 and PAC can beat Cotto at 143/144.

Make the fight at a catchweight of 143/144...
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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

If PAC and Cotto will agree to fight at a catchweight of 143, do you think there could be some group who can successfully protest that this fight should not happen at that catchweight?? :confused:

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No people will just accept it like all the other crap in Boxing (like the WBA).

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Now I won't criticize Pacman for fighting Oscar at 147 because you can't expect Manny to jump 3 weight classes and meet him at 154, but for the Cotto fight where it's 1 weight class and Pacman in my opinion has a good shot of beating Cotto then fight him at 147, fighting someone that's weight drain is a very cowardly move. Don't make the fight if you think you can't beat an opponent at their best with your boxing skills. The fight if made at a catchweight is a farce.

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Superb post. Maybe I was a little overly critical of the Oscar fight before, because he at least fought he at an actual weightclass limit and to be fair to Pacquiao, I didn't give him a prayer. But even at 147 against Cotto he'd be considered the favourite. He has fought at 147 before and he put on a clinic. Why can't he do it for Cotto or Mosley?

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Now I won't criticize Pacman for fighting Oscar at 147 because you can't expect Manny to jump 3 weight classes and meet him at 154, but for the Cotto fight where it's 1 weight class and Pacman in my opinion has a good shot of beating Cotto then fight him at 147, fighting someone that's weight drain is a very cowardly move. Don't make the fight if you think you can't beat an opponent at their best with your boxing skills. The fight if made at a catchweight is a farce.

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Assumptions:

1. Cotto can't beat PAC at 140.
2. PAC can't beat Cotto at 147.
3. Cotto can beat PAC at 143/144 and PAC can beat Cotto at 143/144.

Make the fight at a catchweight of 143/144...
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After seeing the fight against Oscar and how strong Pac looked as a Welter, why couldn't he beat Cotto at 147?

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

If PAC and Cotto will agree to fight at a catchweight of 143, do you think there could be some group who can successfully protest that this fight should not happen at that catchweight?? :confused:

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No people will just accept it like all the other crap in Boxing (like the WBA).

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You're absolutely right, people will accept the fight... happy that the fight was made... buy tickets... buy PPVs... and enjoy the fight...

So what's the fuzz all about?? :confused:
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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Now I won't criticize Pacman for fighting Oscar at 147 because you can't expect Manny to jump 3 weight classes and meet him at 154, but for the Cotto fight where it's 1 weight class and Pacman in my opinion has a good shot of beating Cotto then fight him at 147, fighting someone that's weight drain is a very cowardly move. Don't make the fight if you think you can't beat an opponent at their best with your boxing skills. The fight if made at a catchweight is a farce.

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Assumptions:

1. Cotto can't beat PAC at 140.
2. PAC can't beat Cotto at 147.
3. Cotto can beat PAC at 143/144 and PAC can beat Cotto at 143/144.

Make the fight at a catchweight of 143/144...
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After seeing the fight against Oscar and how strong Pac looked as a Welter, why couldn't he beat Cotto at 147?

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That's the general assumption that PAC can't beat Cotto at 147...
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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

If PAC and Cotto will agree to fight at a catchweight of 143, do you think there could be some group who can successfully protest that this fight should not happen at that catchweight?? :confused:

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No people will just accept it like all the other crap in Boxing (like the WBA).

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You're absolutely right, people will accept the fight... happy that the fight was made... buy tickets... buy PPVs... and enjoy the fight...

So what's the fuzz all about?? :confused:
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People accept it because there is too much money involved to change things. It doesn't make it right though.

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

Assumptions:

1. Cotto can't beat PAC at 140.
2. PAC can't beat Cotto at 147.
3. Cotto can beat PAC at 143/144 and PAC can beat Cotto at 143/144.

Make the fight at a catchweight of 143/144...
.

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After seeing the fight against Oscar and how strong Pac looked as a Welter, why couldn't he beat Cotto at 147?

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That's the general assumption that PAC can't beat Cotto at 147...
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Who assumes that? I haven't heard that from anyone.

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

No people will just accept it like all the other crap in Boxing (like the WBA).

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You're absolutely right, people will accept the fight... happy that the fight was made... buy tickets... buy PPVs... and enjoy the fight...

So what's the fuzz all about?? :confused:
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People accept it because there is too much money involved to change things. It doesn't make it right though.

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Boxing fans are happy... That's what count most... If it's not really right, somebody could successfully stop it by legal means or otherwise...
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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

After seeing the fight against Oscar and how strong Pac looked as a Welter, why couldn't he beat Cotto at 147?

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That's the general assumption that PAC can't beat Cotto at 147...
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Who assumes that? I haven't heard that from anyone.

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Really?? Try to browse more threads/postings here...

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

That's the general assumption that PAC can't beat Cotto at 147...
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Who assumes that? I haven't heard that from anyone.

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Really?? Try to browse more threads/postings here...

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Experts though? Many fans on here assumed Pacquiao couldn't beat Hatton.

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

If PAC and Cotto will agree to fight at a catchweight of 143, do you think there could be some group who can successfully protest that this fight should not happen at that catchweight?? :confused:

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No people will just accept it like all the other crap in Boxing (like the WBA).

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You're absolutely right, people will accept the fight... happy that the fight was made... buy tickets... buy PPVs... and enjoy the fight...

So what's the fuzz all about?? :confused:
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The fuzz is that an opponent is weakened. People have given Manny a lot of respect and attention for beating bigger guys like Oscar and Hatton, he can do it again or at least has a good shot of doing it again. In my opinion Manny has Superior boxing skills, hand speed, foot movement compared to Cotto, isn't that enough of an advantage? If he shows up and fights Cotto with a good game plan and great boxing skills like he did against Oscar his chances are very good against Cotto.

Manny fought Oscar at the 147 limit, why not Cotto?

People are now using the odlh fight why pac should fight cotto at 147. But they seem to ignore the fact that pac started fighting at 106.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

No people will just accept it like all the other crap in Boxing (like the WBA).

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You're absolutely right, people will accept the fight... happy that the fight was made... buy tickets... buy PPVs... and enjoy the fight...

So what's the fuzz all about?? :confused:
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The fuzz is that an opponent is weakened. People have given Manny a lot of respect and attention for beating bigger guys like Oscar and Hatton, he can do it again or at least has a good shot of doing it again. In my opinion Manny has Superior boxing skills, hand speed, foot movement compared to Cotto, isn't that enough of an advantage? If he shows up and fights Cotto with a good game plan and great boxing skills like he did against Oscar his chances are very good against Cotto.

Manny fought Oscar at the 147 limit, why not Cotto?

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Because Hoya is a 154 boxer and PAC a 135 boxer so they met in the middle of 147...

Cotto a 147 boxer and PAC a 140 boxer now so they will meet in the middle which is 143/144...
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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

Who assumes that? I haven't heard that from anyone.

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Really?? Try to browse more threads/postings here...

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Experts though? Many fans on here assumed Pacquiao couldn't beat Hatton.

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We have experts here too... What can you label to those guys who said PAC will inflict the worst beating ever to Hatton??
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Originally Posted by Quinito

People are now using the odlh fight why pac should fight cotto at 147. But they seem to ignore the fact that pac started fighting at 106.

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What's your point? Roberto Duran started his career at 122, but that didnt' stop him from being a jr. middleweight and middleweight champion. Roy Jones JR. started his career at 154 and that didn't stop him from being heavyweight champion.

Stop with the excuses for catch weights. It seems like only Pac fans are defending catch weights almost everyone else disapproves of it.

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

You're absolutely right, people will accept the fight... happy that the fight was made... buy tickets... buy PPVs... and enjoy the fight...

So what's the fuzz all about?? :confused:
.

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The fuzz is that an opponent is weakened. People have given Manny a lot of respect and attention for beating bigger guys like Oscar and Hatton, he can do it again or at least has a good shot of doing it again. In my opinion Manny has Superior boxing skills, hand speed, foot movement compared to Cotto, isn't that enough of an advantage? If he shows up and fights Cotto with a good game plan and great boxing skills like he did against Oscar his chances are very good against Cotto.

Manny fought Oscar at the 147 limit, why not Cotto?

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Because Hoya is a 154 boxer and PAC a 135 boxer so they met in the middle of 147...

Cotto a 147 boxer and PAC a 140 boxer now so they will meet in the middle which is 143/144...
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Oh I get it now.
Pacman fans seems to think anytime a guy moves up in weight to fight for a title it has to be at a catch weight right? lol
That's not how it's done son. It's rarely done in boxing. When a guy moves up in weigth and wants to challenge another guys titles both are usually in good tip top condition to square off. That's just a pussy move popularize by Delahoya and Ray Leonard.

It is more about money than belts these days. But I wish the fight would happen at 147 to STFU all pac-haters. I think its still winnable for Pac. Its 50/50 there imo.

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Originally Posted by Quinito

It is more about money than belts these days. But I wish the fight would happen at 147 to STFU all pac-haters. I think its still winnable for Pac. Its 50/50 there imo.

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I don't hate Pacquiao at all. Love watching him fight and I respect his talent. But you die hard Pac fans just can't seem to see through the bullshit. My problem with the catchweight is that somebody being weight drained is seriously hindering them in a fight. Pacquiao has shown he is strong and healthy at Welterweight. So why the catchweight? Take the risk, and he'll get more respect from the fans. If not, stay at 140 and fight Valero, and then give Marquez the 3rd fight he's owed.

One of the main issues is that it's easier to put a few pounds on than take them off. That's why I didn't really have a problem with the JMM/PBF fight because it was one guy coming up 8lbs, the other guy coming down 4lbs, which seemed fairer. However, Pac has shown he can fight at a 147 limit, so he SHOULD fight there, it's not like he's coming up from 135, he's THE man at 140 & if that's his limit than he should stay there, not drain natural welters.

Were talking about 3lbs of weight.

THREE FUKIN POUNDS MAN... :mad:

I mean, we didn't have to witness the likes of Chris Byrd insisting that Wlad Klitschko loose 3,4,5,10, 11lbs, a stone in weight just to make a fukin fight.

Or Evander Holyfield tellin Lewis ''You'll you'll get ya shot as soon as you shift 10lbs in weight because OMG your so much heavier than me''!!

:rolleyes:

Catch Weights are undeniably Gay.

There are enough lower-weight class-divisions to make ANY transistion (south of Light-Heavyweight) a ''fair'' one.

Im still mad as fuk :mad:

I mean, you all insist on the idea of putting a weight class between Cruiser and Heavy as non-sense yet a fight at 143 is fine.

Fuk-Off, is it :mad:

Lets also point out that 2 of Pacquiao's losses are attributed to difficulty making weight. Are you saying that the likes of Rustico Torrecampo and Medgoen Singsurat have proven their all time greatness by beating the man now considered the best fighter in the world?

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

Lets also point out that 2 of Pacquiao's losses are attributed to difficulty making weight. Are you saying that the likes of Rustico Torrecampo and Medgoen Singsurat have proven their all time greatness by beating the man now considered the best fighter in the world?

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That's what I thought sounds so strange in that Manny knows what it feels to be weight drain but wants another fighter to be weight drain for a big fight.

And his fans are using the excuse that he was weak for his 2 losses which in my opinion they have a valid reason, but if Cotto loses because he was weak at a catch weight, expect boxing fans and Cotto fans to be the same.

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

Were talking about 3lbs of weight.

THREE FUKIN POUNDS MAN... :mad:

I mean, we didn't have to witness the likes of Chris Byrd insisting that Wlad Klitschko loose 3,4,5,10, 11lbs, a stone in weight just to make a fukin fight.

Or Evander Holyfield tellin Lewis ''You'll you'll get ya shot as soon as you shift 10lbs in weight because OMG your so much heavier than me''!!

:rolleyes:

Catch Weights are undeniably Gay.

There are enough lower-weight class-divisions to make ANY transistion (south of Light-Heavyweight) a ''fair'' one.

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The thing is though mate, if you have no excess body fat, how can you lose even 3 pounds? Either lose Muscle tissue or dehydrate, neither of which are good. Look at Frankle Gavin, the Geezer missed the Olympics because he simply could not shed a single ounce more from his body

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

Were talking about 3lbs of weight.

THREE FUKIN POUNDS MAN... :mad:

I mean, we didn't have to witness the likes of Chris Byrd insisting that Wlad Klitschko loose 3,4,5,10, 11lbs, a stone in weight just to make a fukin fight.

Or Evander Holyfield tellin Lewis ''You'll you'll get ya shot as soon as you shift 10lbs in weight because OMG your so much heavier than me''!!

:rolleyes:

Catch Weights are undeniably Gay.

There are enough lower-weight class-divisions to make ANY transistion (south of Light-Heavyweight) a ''fair'' one.

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The thing is though mate, if you have no excess body fat, how can you lose even 3 pounds? Either lose Muscle tissue or dehydrate, neither of which are good. Look at Frankle Gavin, the Geezer missed the Olympics because he simply could not shed a single ounce more from his body

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H I think you missed the point there. Boogie is agreeing with you by saying Pacquiao should put on the 3lbs, not that Cotto should lose them.