De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by milmascaras1

look, if pacquiao was willing to step on up with the bigger boys, it's his own damned fault he was the smaller man. what the hell does he expect? if he didn't think he could beat these bigger guys in the first place at the proper weight, then why is he challenging them for? the thing is this, for all you pactards, i'm going to say that his career record has been very impressive but it has also been questionable because of his insistence on draining bigger guys. and please do not tell me he hasn't ducked anybody! he's fought bigger guys who were very slow but on the other hand, he's ducked younger, fast, in their prime fighters and that even the pactardos cannot deny this. his career has been a bevy of contradictions from his signing two contracts with top rank and golden boy, being afraid of a simple blood test, (this after asking mayweather for many concessions). the only concession mayweather made was the blood test and he wouldn't do it. why? why do any of you pacquiao fans think he didn't want to take the damn test? because he didn't want mayweather dictating to him? that is BULLSHIT and you all know it. who in their right mind would turn down $40m because you're afraid of a little blood when this cat has his body covered with tattoos. i'm sorry but anybody who believes this shit is just so either blind or shallow. mayweather sr. just came out in a statement and said if pacquiao wants a fight, he'd have to agree to a blood test. and as usual, pacquiao has been silent. the fact is this, pacquiao and arum never had any intention to fight mayweather. it was their way of petering out because they know their boy is no match for the skills of mayweather.

---

He expects to put on a good show. That he did. Quite impressive for the smaller man to beat the bigger man. Actually demolishing them is the proper word. I doubt he had serious misgivings about winning when he signed the contracts against cotto/margo. Why blame it all on manny if cotto and tony signed their respective contracts? They didn't even complain of being weight drained after their fight. The only one who complained was oscar, and he was the one who insisted on the weights come fight night. For me, oscar's credibility when he mentioned that manny makes fighters lose on the scales 1st is nil.

By the way, margo is slow. But didn't you pick him to win against manny? So basically if manny never fought tony, you'd be complaining about how he doesn't go up against big slow fighters. That about right? Talk about contradictions.

look arcanum, i did say margarito did have a heck of a chance to beat pacquiao but where did i ever make a prediction? you can't find an instance where i did. but listen, nobody is claiming pacquiao isn't a great fighter because i'd be lying if i said he wasn't. he is a great fighter and this may be a surprise to you, i actually admire and like the guy. what i don't like is his army of pactards claiming he's something he's not. just because he's "won" 8 division titles many of his fans think he's the greatest of all time! that is preposterous to say the least. look at opposition he's faced with today. do you actually think cotto, margarito, clottey, david diaz, and ricky hatton are HOFers? yes, he did beat cotto and that was pretty impressive. i didn't think he could. he did destroy margarito and was surprised at the way he did it. clottey? he's an absolute joke of a fighter. ricky hatton? one of the biggest hype jobs in boxing history. doesn't mean he wasn't any good at one time but he'll never sniff the HOF.

in beating an old, weight drained oscar, pacquiao didn't prove anything. you can't prove anything when the other fighter is not at their best and obviously, oscar wasn't! a prime oscar schools pacquiao every time but that's another story. let's talk about marco antonio barrera! imo, pacquiao would beat him up ten out of ten times. barrera, although a great boxer/puncher, didn't have a clue how to stop pacquiao's onslaught. what about morales! a 70% beat pacquiao convincingly even after he was coming off a loss to barrera, in an exhausting trilogy. what does pacquiao do? he rematches morales after morales lost badly to raheem. and why did pacquiao ever fight morales a third time if he knew he could already beat him?

now, let's talk about marquez! here's a featherweight and super featherweight who gave pacquiao all he could handle. not only did the U.S. boxing press think marquez won BOTH fights, so did the international press. the filipino press thought he lost their rematch. when the filipino press thinks pacquiao (their God) lost a fight, well........:rolleyes: here's the thing, nobody is disputing he's a great fighter but most of you pactards talk as if he's the only fighter that counts. he's not the first or the last great fighter boxing will produce. i truly believe, as do many boxing fans, that pacquiao has been carefully matched with the types of fighters he can beat. he's ducked many challengers from joan guzman, when guzman was a super bantamweight to just recently, marquez. i know you pactards don't like to read these kinds of things but someone has to shake you up a bit to remind you that he is great but not the GOAT!

one more thing arcanum, you'd better enjoy pacroido now because when he's done with boxing, who are you going to root for. you and probably most of the pactards, will probably go into the same oblivion you were in before pacquiao came unto the scene.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by milmascaras1

look arcanum, i did say margarito did have a heck of a chance to beat pacquiao but where did i ever make a prediction? you can't find an instance where i did. but listen, nobody is claiming pacquiao isn't a great fighter because i'd be lying if i said he wasn't. he is a great fighter and this may be a surprise to you, i actually admire and like the guy. what i don't like is his army of pactards claiming he's something he's not. just because he's "won" 8 division titles many of his fans think he's the greatest of all time! that is preposterous to say the least. look at opposition he's faced with today. do you actually think cotto, margarito, clottey, david diaz, and ricky hatton are HOFers? yes, he did beat cotto and that was pretty impressive. i didn't think he could. he did destroy margarito and was surprised at the way he did it. clottey? he's an absolute joke of a fighter. ricky hatton? one of the biggest hype jobs in boxing history. doesn't mean he wasn't any good at one time but he'll never sniff the HOF.

in beating an old, weight drained oscar, pacquiao didn't prove anything. you can't prove anything when the other fighter is not at their best and obviously, oscar wasn't! a prime oscar schools pacquiao every time but that's another story. let's talk about marco antonio barrera! imo, pacquiao would beat him up ten out of ten times. barrera, although a great boxer/puncher, didn't have a clue how to stop pacquiao's onslaught. what about morales! a 70% beat pacquiao convincingly even after he was coming off a loss to barrera, in an exhausting trilogy. what does pacquiao do? he rematches morales after morales lost badly to raheem. and why did pacquiao ever fight morales a third time if he knew he could already beat him?

now, let's talk about marquez! here's a featherweight and super featherweight who gave pacquiao all he could handle. not only did the U.S. boxing press think marquez won BOTH fights, so did the international press. the filipino press thought he lost their rematch. when the filipino press thinks pacquiao (their God) lost a fight, well........:rolleyes: here's the thing, nobody is disputing he's a great fighter but most of you pactards talk as if he's the only fighter that counts. he's not the first or the last great fighter boxing will produce. i truly believe, as do many boxing fans, that pacquiao has been carefully matched with the types of fighters he can beat. he's ducked many challengers from joan guzman, when guzman was a super bantamweight to just recently, marquez. i know you pactards don't like to read these kinds of things but someone has to shake you up a bit to remind you that he is great but not the GOAT!

---

Nobody here is saying he's the GOAT. Maybe you read that in some other boxing forums or in Youtube perhaps? I know this is gonna be hard for you to believe, but I don't think titles won at catchweight bouts are legit. At this point, I could care less how many belts manny has won or will win. I just enjoy him as a fighter and a gentleman, and only will reserve my judgment on whether or not in my eyes he's the GOAT or not after his career ends. And after I read up/study more about the other greats. Believe me I have a long way to go, although the journey has been truly enjoyable.

That being said, the whole purpose of this thread is to discuss if manny does indeed weight drain his opponents prior to their bouts. You probably should post your own generic "I hate manny/pactardos" thread since the majority of your posts here concern other things unrelated to the weight draining issue. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by milmascaras1

one more thing arcanum, you'd better enjoy pacroido now because when he's done with boxing, who are you going to root for. you and probably most of the pactards, will probably go into the same oblivion you were in before pacquiao came unto the scene.

---

I'd probably root for a fighter who has the same tenacity as manny inside the ring. Now you may find this impossibly hard to digest, but that guy doesn't have to be a Filipino. Doesn't matter who he is. I could care less if he's manny the mexican taco vendor in your neighborhood and or crackhouse.

Anyway. Thread's been a nice read and I have to admit I had fun debating with Hornfinger. At least the dude doesn't deflect the topic to manny's "other flaws" according to your thinking. Then you came. You obviously had no idea what the thread was all about but after seeing the name pacquiao on the title, you went into batshit crazy mode (much like Hulk does, except he's cool and sadly you're not) and then decided to unleash your awesomely accurate accusations and blind (or "myopic" - quoting Bilbo) fury to just about anyone on board except for hornfinger. Truly the work of a genius.

So you really admire "pacroido"? Ha.. could've fooled me. I'm gonna refer you to our conversation on page 9 and 10 for my complete rebuttal. You're actually no better than the trolls in youtube/other boxing forums. Probably explains why you've been banned here before. It's easy to imagine you've been chased off/banned/flamed to death repeatedly in other forums too. You're a pactardo, except in reverse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by milmascaras1

i did say margarito did have a heck of a chance to beat pacquiao but where did i ever make a prediction?

---

If you gave Margarito a chance, then you think that the fight is fair. Why are you then making a big deal about the catchweight when Margarito isn't complaining?

Quote:

---

what i don't like is his army of pactards claiming he's something he's not. just because he's "won" 8 division titles many of his fans think he's the greatest of all time!

---

And who among his fans has been claiming that he is the GOAT? They do mention him as being an ATG which you would probably agree that he is. It is just a question of where he is among the ATGs.

Quote:

---

he did beat cotto and that was pretty impressive. i didn't think he could. he did destroy margarito and was surprised at the way he did it.

---

But instead of giving Manny credit for those you belittled those wins by putting the blame on the catchweights.

Quote:

---

in beating an old, weight drained oscar, pacquiao didn't prove anything. you can't prove anything when the other fighter is not at their best and obviously, oscar wasn't!

---

So even after beating Oscar, your contention is that Manny still hasn't proven himself above 135 lbs. Then this will make Manny convincingly beating up those heavier opponents more impressive.

Quote:

---

what about morales! a 70% beat pacquiao convincingly even after he was coming off a loss to barrera

---

Is Pacquiao in his prime when he was beaten by Morales? If not, then Morales did not beat a 100% Pacquiao. So, how many % Pacquiao did he beat? For the record, I just see Morales as the better boxer in their first fight and there should not be any excuses given to Manny's loss.

Quote:

---

in an exhausting trilogy. what does pacquiao do? he rematches morales after morales lost badly to raheem.

---

Manny is expected to fight Morales at some point in time to avenge his loss. If it were later, then you will still criticize him for fighting an older Morales. If Manny didn't fight Morales, then you will be gloating that Manny never beat Erik.

Quote:

---

now, let's talk about marquez! here's a featherweight and super featherweight who gave pacquiao all he could handle. not only did the U.S. boxing press think marquez won BOTH fights, so did the international press. the filipino press thought he lost their rematch. when the filipino press thinks pacquiao (their God) lost a fight

---

That has already been an old argument that most people thought that JMM won those fights. How many people have you heard had the fight in favor of JMM? hundreds? thousands? hundred thousands? You may have heard opinions from not even a hundred and they are not representative of all the people who watched the fight, just like the 3 judges. It was such a close fight that could have gone either way and Manny got lucky to emerge the winner.

Quote:

---

he's not the first or the last great fighter boxing will produce

---

Of course, he is not. No Pac fan said that he is.

Quote:

---

he's ducked many challengers from joan guzman, when guzman was a super bantamweight

---

Unfortunately, Manny cannot fight them all. Did JMM fight Joan Guzman? So he must also be ducking him.

Quote:

---

i know you pactards don't like to read these kinds of things but someone has to shake you up a bit to remind you that he is great but not the GOAT!

---

You are free to write any criticisms of Pacquaio since this is a forum but it seems like you are the one who doesn't want to read about praises given to Pacquiao and a lot of them are not even coming from the pac fans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

---

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

---

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

---

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

---

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

---

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

---

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

---

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

---

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

---

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

---

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

---

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

---

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

---

---

Again, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.

24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.

Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.

If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?

All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.

No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.

You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

---

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

---

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

---

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

---

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

---

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

---

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

---

---

Again, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.

24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.

Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.

If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?

All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.

No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.

You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.

---

BIGGEST LOAD OF TOSH I'VE HEARD!!!!!!!!

No he beat 150 pound man for the 154 title. No fighter in ANY weight division enters the ring at their weigh in weight. That argument is a complete nonsencical joke. I can't believe you've even tried to go that route. Absolute CRAP!

You can't be a fan of boxing because you are happy for a fighter to try and rewrite the rule book.

HOW CAN A 154 TITLE BE WON AT 150 POUNDS!? It's absurd. and the fact that that gets a pat on the back from you shows you have nothing but contempt for the integrity of the sport.

The fact you are happy and in favour of these handicap matches shows you don't give a shit about fairness in sport.

If I watch a fight I want to see both guys at 100%. Not one get at 100% and another guy at 80% or less.

Dildo as far as I'm concerned you are a complete joke. You have no passion for the sport. Hang your head in shame for that last post.

And again back to THE ISSUE OF THE THREAD!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

---

Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.

I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.

If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miles

Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.

I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.

If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.

---

100% agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miles

Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.

I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.

If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.

---

If it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.

If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.

I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCorner

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miles

Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.

I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.

If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.

---

If it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.

If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.

I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.

---

Yes, it does work both ways.

As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.

And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.

You will just have to deal with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miles

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCorner

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miles

Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.

I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.

If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.

---

If it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.

If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.

I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.

---

Yes, it does work both ways.

As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.

And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.

You will just have to deal with that.

---

That's a stretch. Margarito is a middleweight no argument here but he opted to fight in the welter division for much his career so he'd have the size and power advantage. Fighting Garcia was a stay busy fight while he was on exile. Margarito has had no problems making 147lbs, so why would making 150lbs be out of his comfort zone? He thought he'd have the same advantage and more against Pacquiao, but ended up with the beating he deserved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

---

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

---

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

---

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

---

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

---

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

---

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

---

---

Again, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.

24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.

Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.

If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?

All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.

No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.

You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.

---

BIGGEST LOAD OF TOSH I'VE HEARD!!!!!!!!

No he beat 150 pound man for the 154 title. No fighter in ANY weight division enters the ring at their weigh in weight. That argument is a complete nonsencical joke. I can't believe you've even tried to go that route. Absolute CRAP!

You can't be a fan of boxing because you are happy for a fighter to try and rewrite the rule book.

HOW CAN A 154 TITLE BE WON AT 150 POUNDS!? It's absurd. and the fact that that gets a pat on the back from you shows you have nothing but contempt for the integrity of the sport.

The fact you are happy and in favour of these handicap matches shows you don't give a shit about fairness in sport.

If I watch a fight I want to see both guys at 100%. Not one get at 100% and another guy at 80% or less.

Dildo as far as I'm concerned you are a complete joke. You have no passion for the sport. Hang your head in shame for that last post.

And again back to THE ISSUE OF THE THREAD!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hornfinger

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

---

---

Manny has had 57 fights. Two have been at a catchweight.

Manny has won world titles from flyweight junior middleweight, a span of 10 weight divisions. In all that time he has had only one catchweight fight at welter, and one at junior middleweight.

Manny is not a junior middleweight, welterweight or probably even a light welter. At best he's now a natural lightweight, and yet to get better competition he has moved up well, well, well beyond the comfort zone of ANY other fighter in history. No other man who has ever laced up a pair of gloves has risen up through as many weight classes as him.

In his own natural weight classes, from flyweight to super featherweight, he fought everybody, no catchweight, no 'unfair' advantages or anything.

How far does a man have to go before he is cut some slack?

You never answered my questions (as you cannot they simply expose you for what you are) but if ANY other fighter attempted to do what Manny has been doing, the matchups they would have to fight sound ridiculous (or rediculous as you would say).

Martinez vs Pascal at 173 lbs, Pascal vs Haye at 215lbs, Darchinyan vs J M Marquez at 135lbs. According to your criteria, all of these fights would be unfairly skewed in favour of the smaller man, and that just sums up how utterly utterly cretinous you are.

It would be huge if any of the smaller fighters took these fights.

Weight loss doesn't automatically kill a fighter. Glen Johnson moved down, not just a couple pounds but a whole division, well past 40 years old and knocked out Allan Green. Shane Mosley moved down a whole weight class and became a world champ again all over, Bernard Hopkins, now fighting at light heavyweight, got down to 156lbs to knock out Oscar De La Hoya, who clearly wasn't trying to make B Hop lose on the scales :rolleyes:

Have I mentioned you are a cretin?