De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

[milmascaras1]

hornfinger,

no matter how much you and i try to explain to these guys, they can never understand that pacquiao has always looked for way to gain an unfair advantage. i guess the kool-aid gets addicting that they're going to have to go to rehab to get off it.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

hornfinger,

no matter how much you and i try to explain to these guys, they can never understand that pacquiao has always looked for way to gain an unfair advantage. i guess the kool-aid gets addicting that they're going to have to go to rehab to get off it.

The other side of this is that Pacquiao has always looked for a way for the opponent not to get an unfair advantage.

[Kev]

hornfinger,

no matter how much you and i try to explain to these guys, they can never understand that pacquiao has always looked for way to gain an unfair advantage. i guess the kool-aid gets addicting that they're going to have to go to rehab to get off it.

The other side of this is that Pacquiao has always looked for a way for the opponent not to get an unfair advantage.

It genuinely baffles me how myopic the Pac critics are. They simply cannot see that stipulation to fight at an agreed weight works in both directions.

If you are fighting for a 154 title, then I (and you) agree completely that they should fight at no more than 154, but not be restricted to having to weigh less.

But unfortunately, thanks to the modern preference 24 hour weigh ins, the maximum weight limit is no longer applicable. Fighters routinely weigh 5, 10, sometimes 15, and even 20lbs above the weight limit by the time they step over the ropes.

If losing weight is a disadvantage, how is gaining it not an advantage?

It's such a simple concept to grasp. Manny is happy to fight a 165 lb Margarito, bu he didn't want to face a 170lb Margarito seeing as he himself would only weigh 148 lbs in both instances.

As Margarito is a career welterweight I don't understand the claim that he was weight drained at all.

He must have been a corpse coming in at 146 against Shane Mosley. I wonder if Margarito and Manny fought at the full welterweight limit of 147 lbs that that people would complain even more?

Just the idea that Margarito was struggling to fight at an almost career high weight is really really baffling to me.

[milmascaras1]

look, if pacquiao was willing to step on up with the bigger boys, it's his own damned fault he was the smaller man. what the hell does he expect? if he didn't think he could beat these bigger guys in the first place at the proper weight, then why is he challenging them for? the thing is this, for all you pactards, i'm going to say that his career record has been very impressive but it has also been questionable because of his insistence on draining bigger guys. and please do not tell me he hasn't ducked anybody! he's fought bigger guys who were very slow but on the other hand, he's ducked younger, fast, in their prime fighters and that even the pactardos cannot deny this. his career has been a bevy of contradictions from his signing two contracts with top rank and golden boy, being afraid of a simple blood test, (this after asking mayweather for many concessions). the only concession mayweather made was the blood test and he wouldn't do it. why? why do any of you pacquiao fans think he didn't want to take the damn test? because he didn't want mayweather dictating to him? that is BULLSHIT and you all know it. who in their right mind would turn down $40m because you're afraid of a little blood when this cat has his body covered with tattoos. i'm sorry but anybody who believes this shit is just so either blind or shallow. mayweather sr. just came out in a statement and said if pacquiao wants a fight, he'd have to agree to a blood test. and as usual, pacquiao has been silent. the fact is this, pacquiao and arum never had any intention to fight mayweather. it was their way of petering out because they know their boy is no match for the skills of mayweather.

[arcanum26]

look, if pacquiao was willing to step on up with the bigger boys, it's his own damned fault he was the smaller man. what the hell does he expect? if he didn't think he could beat these bigger guys in the first place at the proper weight, then why is he challenging them for? the thing is this, for all you pactards, i'm going to say that his career record has been very impressive but it has also been questionable because of his insistence on draining bigger guys. and please do not tell me he hasn't ducked anybody! he's fought bigger guys who were very slow but on the other hand, he's ducked younger, fast, in their prime fighters and that even the pactardos cannot deny this. his career has been a bevy of contradictions from his signing two contracts with top rank and golden boy, being afraid of a simple blood test, (this after asking mayweather for many concessions). the only concession mayweather made was the blood test and he wouldn't do it. why? why do any of you pacquiao fans think he didn't want to take the damn test? because he didn't want mayweather dictating to him? that is BULLSHIT and you all know it. who in their right mind would turn down $40m because you're afraid of a little blood when this cat has his body covered with tattoos. i'm sorry but anybody who believes this shit is just so either blind or shallow. mayweather sr. just came out in a statement and said if pacquiao wants a fight, he'd have to agree to a blood test. and as usual, pacquiao has been silent. the fact is this, pacquiao and arum never had any intention to fight mayweather. it was their way of petering out because they know their boy is no match for the skills of mayweather.

He expects to put on a good show. That he did. Quite impressive for the smaller man to beat the bigger man. Actually demolishing them is the proper word. I doubt he had serious misgivings about winning when he signed the contracts against cotto/margo. Why blame it all on manny if cotto and tony signed their respective contracts? They didn't even complain of being weight drained after their fight. The only one who complained was oscar, and he was the one who insisted on the weights come fight night. For me, oscar's credibility when he mentioned that manny makes fighters lose on the scales 1st is nil.

By the way, margo is slow. But didn't you pick him to win against manny? So basically if manny never fought tony, you'd be complaining about how he doesn't go up against big slow fighters. That about right? Talk about contradictions.

[milmascaras1]

look arcanum, i did say margarito did have a heck of a chance to beat pacquiao but where did i ever make a prediction? you can't find an instance where i did. but listen, nobody is claiming pacquiao isn't a great fighter because i'd be lying if i said he wasn't. he is a great fighter and this may be a surprise to you, i actually admire and like the guy. what i don't like is his army of pactards claiming he's something he's not. just because he's "won" 8 division titles many of his fans think he's the greatest of all time! that is preposterous to say the least. look at opposition he's faced with today. do you actually think cotto, margarito, clottey, david diaz, and ricky hatton are HOFers? yes, he did beat cotto and that was pretty impressive. i didn't think he could. he did destroy margarito and was surprised at the way he did it. clottey? he's an absolute joke of a fighter. ricky hatton? one of the biggest hype jobs in boxing history. doesn't mean he wasn't any good at one time but he'll never sniff the HOF.

in beating an old, weight drained oscar, pacquiao didn't prove anything. you can't prove anything when the other fighter is not at their best and obviously, oscar wasn't! a prime oscar schools pacquiao every time but that's another story. let's talk about marco antonio barrera! imo, pacquiao would beat him up ten out of ten times. barrera, although a great boxer/puncher, didn't have a clue how to stop pacquiao's onslaught. what about morales! a 70% beat pacquiao convincingly even after he was coming off a loss to barrera, in an exhausting trilogy. what does pacquiao do? he rematches morales after morales lost badly to raheem. and why did pacquiao ever fight morales a third time if he knew he could already beat him?

now, let's talk about marquez! here's a featherweight and super featherweight who gave pacquiao all he could handle. not only did the U.S. boxing press think marquez won BOTH fights, so did the international press. the filipino press thought he lost their rematch. when the filipino press thinks pacquiao (their God) lost a fight, well........ here's the thing, nobody is disputing he's a great fighter but most of you pactards talk as if he's the only fighter that counts. he's not the first or the last great fighter boxing will produce. i truly believe, as do many boxing fans, that pacquiao has been carefully matched with the types of fighters he can beat. he's ducked many challengers from joan guzman, when guzman was a super bantamweight to just recently, marquez. i know you pactards don't like to read these kinds of things but someone has to shake you up a bit to remind you that he is great but not the GOAT!

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

Again, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.

24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.

Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.

If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?

All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.

No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.

You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

Again, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.

24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.

Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.

If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?

All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.

No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.

You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.

BIGGEST LOAD OF TOSH I'VE HEARD!!!!!!!!

No he beat 150 pound man for the 154 title. No fighter in ANY weight division enters the ring at their weigh in weight. That argument is a complete nonsencical joke. I can't believe you've even tried to go that route. Absolute CRAP!

You can't be a fan of boxing because you are happy for a fighter to try and rewrite the rule book.

HOW CAN A 154 TITLE BE WON AT 150 POUNDS!? It's absurd. and the fact that that gets a pat on the back from you shows you have nothing but contempt for the integrity of the sport.

The fact you are happy and in favour of these handicap matches shows you don't give a shit about fairness in sport.

If I watch a fight I want to see both guys at 100%. Not one get at 100% and another guy at 80% or less.

Dildo as far as I'm concerned you are a complete joke. You have no passion for the sport. Hang your head in shame for that last post.

And again back to THE ISSUE OF THE THREAD!

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

[Gandalf]

Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.

I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.

If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.

[Hornfinger]

Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.

I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.

If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.

100% agree.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.

I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.

If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.

If it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.

If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.

I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

Again, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.

24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.

Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.

If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?

All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.

No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.

You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.

BIGGEST LOAD OF TOSH I'VE HEARD!!!!!!!!

No he beat 150 pound man for the 154 title. No fighter in ANY weight division enters the ring at their weigh in weight. That argument is a complete nonsencical joke. I can't believe you've even tried to go that route. Absolute CRAP!

You can't be a fan of boxing because you are happy for a fighter to try and rewrite the rule book.

HOW CAN A 154 TITLE BE WON AT 150 POUNDS!? It's absurd. and the fact that that gets a pat on the back from you shows you have nothing but contempt for the integrity of the sport.

The fact you are happy and in favour of these handicap matches shows you don't give a shit about fairness in sport.

If I watch a fight I want to see both guys at 100%. Not one get at 100% and another guy at 80% or less.

Dildo as far as I'm concerned you are a complete joke. You have no passion for the sport. Hang your head in shame for that last post.

And again back to THE ISSUE OF THE THREAD!

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

Manny has had 57 fights. Two have been at a catchweight.

Manny has won world titles from flyweight junior middleweight, a span of 10 weight divisions. In all that time he has had only one catchweight fight at welter, and one at junior middleweight.

Manny is not a junior middleweight, welterweight or probably even a light welter. At best he's now a natural lightweight, and yet to get better competition he has moved up well, well, well beyond the comfort zone of ANY other fighter in history. No other man who has ever laced up a pair of gloves has risen up through as many weight classes as him.

In his own natural weight classes, from flyweight to super featherweight, he fought everybody, no catchweight, no 'unfair' advantages or anything.

How far does a man have to go before he is cut some slack?

You never answered my questions (as you cannot they simply expose you for what you are) but if ANY other fighter attempted to do what Manny has been doing, the matchups they would have to fight sound ridiculous (or rediculous as you would say).

Martinez vs Pascal at 173 lbs, Pascal vs Haye at 215lbs, Darchinyan vs J M Marquez at 135lbs. According to your criteria, all of these fights would be unfairly skewed in favour of the smaller man, and that just sums up how utterly utterly cretinous you are.

It would be huge if any of the smaller fighters took these fights.

Weight loss doesn't automatically kill a fighter. Glen Johnson moved down, not just a couple pounds but a whole division, well past 40 years old and knocked out Allan Green. Shane Mosley moved down a whole weight class and became a world champ again all over, Bernard Hopkins, now fighting at light heavyweight, got down to 156lbs to knock out Oscar De La Hoya, who clearly wasn't trying to make B Hop lose on the scales

Have I mentioned you are a cretin?