De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

[milmascaras1]

hornfinger,

no matter how much you and i try to explain to these guys, they can never understand that pacquiao has always looked for way to gain an unfair advantage. i guess the kool-aid gets addicting that they're going to have to go to rehab to get off it.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

hornfinger,

no matter how much you and i try to explain to these guys, they can never understand that pacquiao has always looked for way to gain an unfair advantage. i guess the kool-aid gets addicting that they're going to have to go to rehab to get off it.

The other side of this is that Pacquiao has always looked for a way for the opponent not to get an unfair advantage.

[Kev]

hornfinger,

no matter how much you and i try to explain to these guys, they can never understand that pacquiao has always looked for way to gain an unfair advantage. i guess the kool-aid gets addicting that they're going to have to go to rehab to get off it.

The other side of this is that Pacquiao has always looked for a way for the opponent not to get an unfair advantage.

It genuinely baffles me how myopic the Pac critics are. They simply cannot see that stipulation to fight at an agreed weight works in both directions.

If you are fighting for a 154 title, then I (and you) agree completely that they should fight at no more than 154, but not be restricted to having to weigh less.

But unfortunately, thanks to the modern preference 24 hour weigh ins, the maximum weight limit is no longer applicable. Fighters routinely weigh 5, 10, sometimes 15, and even 20lbs above the weight limit by the time they step over the ropes.

If losing weight is a disadvantage, how is gaining it not an advantage?

It's such a simple concept to grasp. Manny is happy to fight a 165 lb Margarito, bu he didn't want to face a 170lb Margarito seeing as he himself would only weigh 148 lbs in both instances.

As Margarito is a career welterweight I don't understand the claim that he was weight drained at all.

He must have been a corpse coming in at 146 against Shane Mosley. I wonder if Margarito and Manny fought at the full welterweight limit of 147 lbs that that people would complain even more?

Just the idea that Margarito was struggling to fight at an almost career high weight is really really baffling to me.

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlighted

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

Again, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.

24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.

Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.

If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?

All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.

No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.

You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

Hornfinger
Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.[/QUOTE]


But the 154 fighter did not fight at 154. He fought at 165. This is what Bilbo hs been saying about that 24 hour weight in. Those weren't the weight that they come in for the fight.

If Cotto thought that he could not beat Pacquiao at 145 then he would not have agreed to 145.

The ODLH fight should not even be debatable. Those were under Oscar's terms. And Manny had to go up 2 weight divisions!!!

And so what if Manny didn't think he could win those fights at those weights (and this is your opinion btw, unless you're going to tell us that you spoke to Manny), the thing is he won those fights at the weights that even his opponents didn't think are unreasonable for them to achieve without compromising their competitiveness.