Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
Marquez would only be a better opponent if he was fighting @ 140 or below.
Exactly, this 144 or whatever is smoke and mirrors to make it look like Manny was the better fighter. It is utter bollocks though. You bring a man up 2 weight classes at 38 after beating a 39 year old? Pac is a joke really.
Ortiz would have been the better opponent all things considered. Marquez looked weathered last time out against Diaz and simply looked awful fighting Mayweather at a ridiculous weight.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
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Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
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Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
Marquez would only be a better opponent if he was fighting @ 140 or below.
So, what you're saying is that you would have preferred to see Manny in with Ortiz all other things being equal.
As Taeth and Finito said, all things being equal, JMM at 145 is tougher FOR Manny than Ortiz at 147.
No it isn't, Marquez is way on his way down the slide and so fighting 10 pounds north of a weight that he is pretty much maxed out at is just daft.
Marquez will get blown out inside of 5 rounds this time around. I really don't undersatnd why these two still remain linked just beacuse they had two close fights at 126 & 130.... But now 145?!
Manny has moved way off Marquez' radar IMO, Ortiz might of been killed by Pac-Man but Marquez is gonna get killed, quickly.
That's a fair opinion. We can agree to disagree.
The question was which one would have been a tougher fight and from what I gather, you believe it would be Ortiz.
Marquez as only been seen once above 135 and that was against Mayweather who is the world's best fighter at that weight. IMO that doesn't mean he is ineffective against other people above 135, especially against another boxer who he has had a lot of success against. I also believe that sometimes a boxer just has another boxer's number and that Marquez just has Manny's number to an extent.
Recall also that
Marquez came into the fight against Kastidis at 145 even though the fight was at lightweight and that Pacquiao came into the fight against Mosley at 145 (right?). So in a way even though they were fighting at two different weight classes they still weighed the same come time for their last fights. I can see the argument that Marquez isn't as effective at 145 regardless of what weight class he is fighting in. He had more trouble with Kastidis than I thought he would.
I am curious as to why Marquez would rehydrate to 145 if he does not think that's his ideal fighting weight. What was his fighting weight in his last 5 fights? Does anyone know?
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
Marquez would only be a better opponent if he was fighting @ 140 or below.
Exactly, this 144 or whatever is smoke and mirrors to make it look like Manny was the better fighter. It is utter bollocks though. You bring a man up 2 weight classes at 38 after beating a 39 year old? Pac is a joke really.
Ortiz would have been the better opponent all things considered. Marquez looked weathered last time out against Diaz and simply looked awful fighting Mayweather at a ridiculous weight.
It seems to have just been recently that posters here had been clamoring for Pacquiao to fight either Marquez, Berto or Bradley instead of Mosley. I don't even recall Ortiz name being mentioned. Now, Ortiz becomes the better opponent.
In hindsight, Berto did not appear to be a worthy opponent after he was exposed by Ortiz. If Ortiz gets dominated by Mayweather, people would be saying that he would not have been that good of an opponent either for Manny.
The bottom line is that there is no other challenging opponents out there for both Manny and Floyd (don't even bring Martinez to this discussion, he has to fight opponents his own size or higher if he wishes) ....... unless either of them shows some drasctic signs of aging.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
The sticker with me is the weight and JMM coming in bulky, beefy and slowed. He should just come in 'natural' and if he's under a couple vs Manny so be it. In the name of style effectiveness and stamina on those 'been there, done that' legs & body. I can live with this fight. It has the history factor and rivalry.
Ortiz while redeemed and clawed back from the 'almost was' heep vs Berto, is just a fiery guy with glaring flaws that a Mayweather and or Manny will dissect. Same with all the talk of Berto meeting these two prior. I'd hate to be the one doing Andres dirty laundry after a match with Manny. Ortiz has a punchers chance against anyone and a seemingly new found fire in the belly. Being doubted and scoffed at will do that for a fighter but he struggles to even position correctly as a southpaw and still gets rocked and dropped with wind up right hands.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Ortiz absolutely would have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez.
W/r/t Marquez, it's not even a weight issue. They could fight at 135 and it would be an utter mismatch because JMM has simply lost a few steps since the two great fights with Pac years ago. IMO, JMM loses to Guerrero and possibly even Rios at 135 today -- forget Manny at 147. This fight is a complete joke and would never be considered legitimate if not for the two fights a long time ago when Manny was worse and JMM was better.
JMM got pasted with shots and had to work his ass off just to get by Katsidis, who is serviceable at best (and got utterly dominated by Guerrero his next time out).
JMM isn't "shot" but he is not a P4P fighter at all any more, and everyone will see that when this fight happens. Just putting this out there now because I know that when I say this again after the fight, there will be a million responses of "you're just saying this now -- everyone thought this was a great rubber match before it happened," etc.
This is not to say that Ortiz is some kind of world-beater and certainly not to say he's on the level of a *prime* (i.e., 5 years ago) Marquez. But at least he brings size and strength to the table, whereas I think today's Marquez brings next to nothing besides heart.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
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Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Recall also that Marquez came into the fight against Kastidis at 145 even though the fight was at lightweight and that Pacquiao came into the fight against Mosley at 145 (right?)
I am curious as to why Marquez would rehydrate to 145 if he does not think that's his ideal fighting weight. What was his fighting weight in his last 5 fights? Does anyone know?
Well, my thinking is that take Ortiz, Ortiz weighs in at 147, but on the night of the fight, he weighs 160ish. That would be a big weight disadvantage if you were Marquez. However, in Pacquiao's case he comes in at 145ish too. So, it's not the same disadvantage as it would be with other welterweights.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
shza
Ortiz absolutely would have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez.
W/r/t Marquez, it's not even a weight issue. They could fight at 135 and it would be an utter mismatch because JMM has simply lost a few steps since the two great fights with Pac years ago. IMO, JMM loses to Guerrero and possibly even Rios at 135 today -- forget Manny at 147. This fight is a complete joke and would never be considered legitimate if not for the two fights a long time ago when Manny was worse and JMM was better.
JMM got pasted with shots and had to work his ass off just to get by Katsidis, who is serviceable at best (and got utterly dominated by Guerrero his next time out).
JMM isn't "shot" but he is not a P4P fighter at all any more, and everyone will see that when this fight happens. Just putting this out there now because I know that when I say this again after the fight, there will be a million responses of "you're just saying this now -- everyone thought this was a great rubber match before it happened," etc.
This is not to say that Ortiz is some kind of world-beater and certainly not to say he's on the level of a *prime* (i.e., 5 years ago) Marquez. But at least he brings size and strength to the table, whereas I think today's Marquez brings next to nothing besides heart.
Now see you make a very good point, Shza. JMM might just not be the fighter he was 2 years ago, the wars have taken their toll. My only thought is that even if a past-his-prime JMM, might still have the answer for Pacquiao. And you know if he has one more fight in him, Pacquiao will bring it out. But, you may very well be correct in your theory.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Yep, Ortiz is a better match up and PAC gets more credit for it, too late now though PBF beats him to the punch:(
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Rant you miss the whole point here. Pac would have absolutely fought a 43 yr old Marquez than a young fighter in his prime because JMM generates more$$$$$$$$$$$$$
So it doesn't suprise me that Pac is fighting JMM in a weight class he has no business in.
Their history is their history and thats all it is at this point, if they both were at 135 I would love this fight, but its a joke at this point, if Pac was knocking him down before, he is going to cripple him now. Thats not a knock on Marquez either..
We are not bagging this fight and totally outraged because of the history but seriously an old worn out JMM fighting 2 Weight classes above his usual... Its nonsense
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Pac man would beat both , so Mayweather is now fighting Ortiz , zzzzzzzzz for fuck sake we all know there is only one fight out there for both of them so get your shit together and put boxing back where it belongs , on the front pages , our sport needs this fight BIG TIME .
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
roberto duran legend
Pac man would beat both , so Mayweather is now fighting Ortiz , zzzzzzzzz for fuck sake we all know there is only one fight out there for both of them so get your shit together and put boxing back where it belongs , on the front pages , our sport needs this fight BIG TIME .
Since when was Boxing about publicity and why does it matter so much whether our sport goes on the front page or not? Im not saying that you're among them, but, it's usually the casual observers who are all over the Floyd/Pac just because it's perceived as the biggest event of boxing.. Well superfights dont always live up to its expectations for many reasons such as clash of styles etc and this happens to be one of them.. True boxing fans realize that styles make fights and Floyd/pac lacks chemistry so they know what to expect. An uneventful 12 round decision..
You want to watch a fight just because it's regarded as a big event or would you rather watch something of substance.. It happens all the time in Boxing. I remember back in late 06, nobody talked about the upcoming bout between Rafael Marquez/Izzy because it wasnt considered as a mega event.. People were busy talking about HOya/Floyd as if it's going to be another thrilla in Manilla but myself and few other guys knew the real super fight was Rafael/Vazquez...
We dont need Floyd/pacman... There are so many better fights out there.. it's endless.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Yes, Ortiz is a legitimate fighter at the wight, Marquez is a great fighter at the lower weight.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Rant you miss the whole point here. Pac would have absolutely fought a 43 yr old Marquez than a young fighter in his prime because JMM generates more$$$$$$$$$$$$$
So it doesn't suprise me that Pac is fighting JMM in a weight class he has no business in.
Their history is their history and thats all it is at this point, if they both were at 135 I would love this fight, but its a joke at this point, if Pac was knocking him down before, he is going to cripple him now. Thats not a knock on Marquez either..
We are not bagging this fight and totally outraged because of the history but seriously an old worn out JMM fighting 2 Weight classes above his usual... Its nonsense
Not being rhetorical at all. But, if Marquez came in at 145 the night of the Kastidis fight, and Manny came in at 147 the night of the Mosley fight, what's the difference (besides Marquez maybe being past it)?
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
I know what your saying , but fights like this need to be made , its not like the 80s when there was great fights every 3 or 4 weeks , they are getting pretty rair :eek: , boxing gets no space in papers anymore , so if it attracts more fans to our sport it cant be bad can it
