Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?

[shza]

Ortiz absolutely would have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez.

W/r/t Marquez, it's not even a weight issue. They could fight at 135 and it would be an utter mismatch because JMM has simply lost a few steps since the two great fights with Pac years ago. IMO, JMM loses to Guerrero and possibly even Rios at 135 today -- forget Manny at 147. This fight is a complete joke and would never be considered legitimate if not for the two fights a long time ago when Manny was worse and JMM was better.

JMM got pasted with shots and had to work his ass off just to get by Katsidis, who is serviceable at best (and got utterly dominated by Guerrero his next time out).

JMM isn't "shot" but he is not a P4P fighter at all any more, and everyone will see that when this fight happens. Just putting this out there now because I know that when I say this again after the fight, there will be a million responses of "you're just saying this now -- everyone thought this was a great rubber match before it happened," etc.

This is not to say that Ortiz is some kind of world-beater and certainly not to say he's on the level of a *prime* (i.e., 5 years ago) Marquez. But at least he brings size and strength to the table, whereas I think today's Marquez brings next to nothing besides heart.

[Rantcatrat]

Ortiz absolutely would have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez.

W/r/t Marquez, it's not even a weight issue. They could fight at 135 and it would be an utter mismatch because JMM has simply lost a few steps since the two great fights with Pac years ago. IMO, JMM loses to Guerrero and possibly even Rios at 135 today -- forget Manny at 147. This fight is a complete joke and would never be considered legitimate if not for the two fights a long time ago when Manny was worse and JMM was better.

JMM got pasted with shots and had to work his ass off just to get by Katsidis, who is serviceable at best (and got utterly dominated by Guerrero his next time out).

JMM isn't "shot" but he is not a P4P fighter at all any more, and everyone will see that when this fight happens. Just putting this out there now because I know that when I say this again after the fight, there will be a million responses of "you're just saying this now -- everyone thought this was a great rubber match before it happened," etc.

This is not to say that Ortiz is some kind of world-beater and certainly not to say he's on the level of a *prime* (i.e., 5 years ago) Marquez. But at least he brings size and strength to the table, whereas I think today's Marquez brings next to nothing besides heart.

Now see you make a very good point, Shza. JMM might just not be the fighter he was 2 years ago, the wars have taken their toll. My only thought is that even if a past-his-prime JMM, might still have the answer for Pacquiao. And you know if he has one more fight in him, Pacquiao will bring it out. But, you may very well be correct in your theory.

[Pavlik]

Yep, Ortiz is a better match up and PAC gets more credit for it, too late now though PBF beats him to the punch

[JT Rock]

Rant you miss the whole point here. Pac would have absolutely fought a 43 yr old Marquez than a young fighter in his prime because JMM generates more$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So it doesn't suprise me that Pac is fighting JMM in a weight class he has no business in.

Their history is their history and thats all it is at this point, if they both were at 135 I would love this fight, but its a joke at this point, if Pac was knocking him down before, he is going to cripple him now. Thats not a knock on Marquez either..

We are not bagging this fight and totally outraged because of the history but seriously an old worn out JMM fighting 2 Weight classes above his usual... Its nonsense

[Rantcatrat]

Rant you miss the whole point here. Pac would have absolutely fought a 43 yr old Marquez than a young fighter in his prime because JMM generates more$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So it doesn't suprise me that Pac is fighting JMM in a weight class he has no business in.

Their history is their history and thats all it is at this point, if they both were at 135 I would love this fight, but its a joke at this point, if Pac was knocking him down before, he is going to cripple him now. Thats not a knock on Marquez either..

We are not bagging this fight and totally outraged because of the history but seriously an old worn out JMM fighting 2 Weight classes above his usual... Its nonsense

Not being rhetorical at all. But, if Marquez came in at 145 the night of the Kastidis fight, and Manny came in at 147 the night of the Mosley fight, what's the difference (besides Marquez maybe being past it)?

[JT Rock]

Rant you miss the whole point here. Pac would have absolutely fought a 43 yr old Marquez than a young fighter in his prime because JMM generates more$$$$$$$$$$$$$<br />
<br />
So it doesn't suprise me that Pac is fighting JMM in a weight class he
has no business in.<br />
<br />
Their history is their history and
thats all it is at this point, if they both
were at 135 I would love this fight,
but its a joke at this point, if Pac was
knocking him down before, he is
going to cripple him now. Thats not
a knock on Marquez either..<br />

<br />

We are not bagging this fight and
totally outraged because of the
history but seriously an old worn out
JMM fighting 2 Weight classes
above his usual... Its
nonsense

<br />
<br />
Not being rhetorical at all. But, if
Marquez came in at 145 the night of
the Kastidis fight, and Manny came
in at 147 the night of the Mosley
fight, what's the difference (besides
Marquez maybe being past it)?

<br />

Then why were people poo pooing Mayweathers win against JMM citing he was 2 heavy and slow and old? It's really interesting to me(not directing this to you) but how do people take the ether and put on blinders when PAC picks an opponent is beyond me?
<br />

[Gandalf]

Marquez hasn't beaten anyone above LW really, whilst Ortiz has. Ortiz is the more proven opponent. The weight jump of Marquez is something none of us really know about. Ortiz at least is a natural in his weight class. He is a big dude, Marquez quite simply isn't.

The Pac fight should have been at 140 really.

[Rantcatrat]

[/QUOTE]<br />

Then why were people poo pooing Mayweathers win against JMM citing he was 2 heavy and slow and old? It's really interesting to me(not directing this to you) but how do people take the ether and put on blinders when PAC picks an opponent is beyond me?
<br />[/QUOTE]

I think there are two things for this. One, Marquez was too small for Floyd especially considering it was his first fight above 135. The criticism is warranted. Also, remember the times. The Marquez fight was Floyd's first fight back after "retiring" when he could have faced a prime/pre-Margarito Cotto. The fight everyone was excited about. Some of the hate was backlash especially given that Floyd's last win was over Hatton who Floyd fought at 147 even though Hatton was considerably more effective at 140.

Don't discount that fact the same criticism is fairly leveled at Manny by many posters on this board. To me, the main difference is that styles make fights and Manny has proved to have struggled with Marquez in the past. You are correct though that the reason Manny is favored in the fight is that the fight is at 145, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. However, I don't believe Marquez will somehow have forgotten how to beat Manny. It may be that he is too old and slow and not big enough to do so, but his experience in neutralizing Manny won't just completely go away.