Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Has there ever been greater footwork? He's the most standout, totally unique fighter i've ever seen, a defence and offence genuis. He makes lightening fast fighters look pedestrian and lights-out punchers look useless. His loss to Salido is the most bogus piece of form in current history. And his record in 9 fights stacks up with other top P4Pers.
Loma best three wins.
Walters
Russell jr
Martinez/Sosa
Crawford's best three.
Gamboa
Beltran
Burns/Postol
Golovkin best three.
Jacobs
Lemieux
Brook
Kovalev best three
Hopkins
Pascal
Cleverly
I have him a clear no.1. If you want to base it entirely on records then Ward and Chocolatitio can be above him.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe or Wade are better names for GGG than Brook.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.
No fighter is perfect, but ward is in no way a limited fighter. Kovalev has his flaws sure but he is very good.
Is calzaghe the best fighter ever in your eyes?
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
not wanting to jump in on your debate , but just a question @Fenster. If Brook hadn't got injured, how do you think the fight would've panned out? I got the impression the power was wearing him down.
I have to say the 3rd round from Brook was one of the "Ballsyist" rounds of boxing I've seen for a long time.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
I have him a clear no.1. If you want to base it entirely on records then Ward and Chocolatitio can be above him.
I can't put him ahead of Crawford or Garcia yet but it is all down to personal opinion. Loma is brilliant and is included among any P4P debate. It's a fun time.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.
That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.
That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.
I always try to avoid the p4p stuff because you simply cannot imo define a clear check list of merit. It's all subjective and honestly has much to do with high profiles and marketability. Putting them there based on weight divisions gained or even 'official' ranked guys beat can be another rabbit hole because the validity of those trinkets held and ranking can be equally subjective if not steered that direction for a more well known guy. It's refreshing to see Inoue on Rings list but there was a point when every single guy was a regular on hbo or Showtime. Broner was once placed at 5 based solely on hype, frankly manufactured multi division trinkets and perceived future 'greatness'. It was laughable. I never bought Gonzalez as #1 because he simply gets hit too much, sounds crazy I know.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.
Totally agree, @Master . People tend to get carried away with a good performance when they want to see that fighter succeed. I like Brook, don't get me wrong. But do people really think GGG didn't fight a different type of fight knowing full well that it was only a matter of time, and that Brook couldn't hurt him? Do they think he would've allowed himself to get hit that many times had Brook been more of a danger? C'mon. Fighters adjust their styles according to what's in front of them. GGG stalked down Brook and did what everybody and their mother knew he was going to do. Kudos to Brook for lasting as long as he did.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Gonzalez does get hit but that's his style. The fact he's taking punches from guys at 115 and fighting them toe to toe is a credit to his ability and chin. Just the names alone on his record establish him as one of the best around. Niida, Takayama, Estrada, Yaegashi, Viloria, Cuadras, Wangek. Ioka wanted no part of him. His desire to fight the top guys is admirable.
