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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
On the list, there are some appalling ones. I have to go with Whitaker-Chavez. As others have said, it wasn't even close. I have never trusted a Brit scoring a fight since, Mickey Vann is an ass.
Leonard-Hearns II, Martinez-Cintron, Lewis-Holyfield I, Spadafora-Dorin, Funeka-Guzman were all outright robberies with blind men scoring them. Or maybe Brits scored all those too.
Wright-Taylor, Ortiz-Peterson and Pascal-Hopkins just barely fall below the robbery line imo but not by much. Don't get me wrong though because I was screaming about how Wright got robbed more then anybody at the time. Dokes-Weaver II (after the first had been stopped waaay prematurely) was another, Dokes fought valiantly but was beaten up that fight. Hagler versus the Italian guy too. It's hard to score those fights for Dokes and Antufuermo (I think thats how it's spelled, how it's pronounced)
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Hagler-Antuofermo was definitely a robbery.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Lewis v Holyfield was the biggest robbery for me.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
LMAO
Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??
IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.
They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D
Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.
Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)
Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title
Do I need to say more??:lol:
Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.
Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
LMAO
Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??
IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.
They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D
Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.
Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)
Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title
Do I need to say more??:lol:
Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you
choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.
Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:
The article was written by Lem Satterfield, Michael Marley's equivalent but on the other side.
The same guy that reported Clottey was at a catchweight. BTW the article did state there is a possiblity but more than likely it will not be at catchweight. Looks like the joke is on you.;)
Almost as good as your other post that guys like Leonard, DLH, Chavez that asked for catchweights did it not to gain an advantage but as a median.
It's either you are for or against it, not pick 1 guy is allowed to do it while another guy can't.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
LMAO
Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??
IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.
They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D
Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.
Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)
Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title
Do I need to say more??:lol:
Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you
choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.
Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:
Please show me in that article anywhere where it says that Manny has asked for a catchweight. It's speculation on the part of the author nothing more.
Look let's examine the line carefully step by step so your slow mind can grasp..He write's
'There is a possiblity, although most don't expect it, for Mosley to face Pacquaio at a catchweight of 148lbs, with the WBC's 154lb title at stake.'
In other words, there is no confirmation of this. You are arguing and criticising Manny over the speculations of a journalist.
Interestingly the fairest fight would be for them to fight at the 147lb welterweight limit.
A catchweight, if it occurs, and most likely at 150, would be to Shane's benefit as the naturally bigger man rather than Manny, who would be better to face him at 147, the same weight that Shane weighed in against for Floyd Mayweather.
If a catchweight is decided upon (and again nothing has been agreed), it will be to allow Shane the fight for the junior middleweight belt, and to be able to put on a few lbs compared to the weight he fought against Floyd Mayweather, Antonio Margarito and Miguel Cotto.
It's interesting that Manny suffers accusations of weight draining his opponents, whereas in actuality in the case of Margarito, and Shane if a catchweight is agreed, he will have let them weigh more than they did against virtually anyone else....
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
LMAO
Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??
IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.
They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D
Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.
Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)
Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title
Do I need to say more??:lol:
Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you
choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.
Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:
The article was written by Lem Satterfield, Michael Marley's equivalent but on the other side.
The same guy that reported Clottey was at a catchweight. BTW the article did state there is a possiblity but more than likely it will not be at catchweight. Looks like the joke is on you.;)
Almost as good as your other post that guys like Leonard, DLH, Chavez that asked for catchweights did it not to gain an advantage but as a median.
It's either you are for or against it, not pick 1 guy is allowed to do it while another guy can't.
The joke is on me because there is a possibility for another catch weight fight? Riiiiiiight.
Obviously I am against catch weight fights. And it's not "it's either you're against them or not" they serve there purposes every once in great awhile.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
LMAO
Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??
IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.
They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D
Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.
Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)
Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title
Do I need to say more??:lol:
Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you
choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.
Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:
The article was written by Lem Satterfield, Michael Marley's equivalent but on the other side.
The same guy that reported Clottey was at a catchweight. BTW the article did state there is a possiblity but more than likely it will not be at catchweight. Looks like the joke is on you.;)
Almost as good as your other post that guys like Leonard, DLH, Chavez that asked for catchweights did it not to gain an advantage but as a median.
It's either you are for or against it, not pick 1 guy is allowed to do it while another guy can't.
The joke is on me because there is a possibility for another catch weight fight? Riiiiiiight.
Obviously I am against catch weight fights. And it's not "it's either you're against them or not" they serve there purposes every once in great awhile.
Your claim above, which I quoted was that all other catchweight fights in history were fair because they represented a fair compromise to find the best weight.
This is what you wrote
Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??
IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.
They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
So clearly, your problem is not that Manny has taken catchweight fights, but that he manipulates the catchweight fights to drain his opponents.
So, my question to you is this. What advantage does Manny gain by allowing Mosley to fight at a catchweight?
He could just fight him at the 147 welterweight limit, the same as Floyd did, the same as Cotto did, and the same as Margarito did.
But he may, and the key word is may, no confirmation has been made, allow Shane to weigh in over the 147 lbs limit so that the 154 lb belt can also be on the line.
How does this drain Shane exactly?
I am interested to hear your response because in your own words, all the catchweights were ok because they didn't drain a fighter. As Manny is letting Shane weigh MORE than he did against his other recent opponents how does he drain him?
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
I remember reading that Bilbo loves to play chess. Well it looks like this is check mate.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
LMAO
Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??
IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.
They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D
Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.
Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)
Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title
Do I need to say more??:lol:
Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you
choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.
Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:
The article was written by Lem Satterfield, Michael Marley's equivalent but on the other side.
The same guy that reported Clottey was at a catchweight. BTW the article did state there is a possiblity but more than likely it will not be at catchweight. Looks like the joke is on you.;)
Almost as good as your other post that guys like Leonard, DLH, Chavez that asked for catchweights did it not to gain an advantage but as a median.
It's either you are for or against it, not pick 1 guy is allowed to do it while another guy can't.
You have a very long explanation to make if your saying it's a catch-weight at the 147lb limit, which is where Mosley has been fighting. And then if you are saying a higher weight for Mosley between 148-154 is less of an advantage?, then you're just stupid. It's the same weight advantage for Mosley, that Margarito had stepping into the ring with a 10 to 15 lb functional weight advantage. And Margarito actually had a 17 lb weight advantage. The stated purpose of 24-hour weigh-in is to allow fighters to step into the ring safely re-hydrated. With the 24 hour weigh-in, 9 times out of 10, the functional weight advantage is typically going to favor the naturally bigger man. If it is the bigger man's wall "so to say" then it will be the smaller man's advantage due to the affect on stamina but not in Margarito's case and not in Mosley's case.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
LMAO
Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??
IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.
They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D
Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.
Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)
Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title
Do I need to say more??:lol:
Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you
choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.
Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:
The article was written by Lem Satterfield, Michael Marley's equivalent but on the other side.
The same guy that reported Clottey was at a catchweight. BTW the article did state there is a possiblity but more than likely it will not be at catchweight. Looks like the joke is on you.;)
Almost as good as your other post that guys like Leonard, DLH, Chavez that asked for catchweights did it not to gain an advantage but as a median.
It's either you are for or against it, not pick 1 guy is allowed to do it while another guy can't.
The joke is on me because there is a possibility for another catch weight fight? Riiiiiiight.
Obviously I am against catch weight fights. And it's not "it's either you're against them or not" they serve there purposes every once in great awhile.
So, my question to you is this. What advantage does Manny gain by allowing Mosley to fight at a catchweight?
How does this drain Shane exactly?
"Those" that I was referring about were the catch weight fights you and Jaz were discussing. "Those" don't include ALL.
It seems this whole time you guys have been putting words in my mouth.
Maybe you think I am Mil, but I am not.
And Shane's last fight was at 154 limit wasn't it? So Mosley is going from 147-154-147 in one year.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I remember reading that Bilbo loves to play chess. Well it looks like this is check mate.
By assuming things right?
Where exactly did I not get room to breath in this discussion?:(
It's a simple check, and it looks like a Knight to me;)
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
Oscar, at the time Manny was a LW (not super FW) Oscar's last fight was at 150 with Forbes. Day of the fight for Manny was 145+ I believe against Diaz and 144 Marquez.
Manny only skipped LWW to fight Oscar. Don't people say he just stopped cutting weight and not really grew much at all??
Cotto, I just see no explanation not even from you for this one. And yes if he could fight Oscar at 147 and not Cotto, there has to be a little picking going on. I'm not going to give him a go if he could fight a non-champ at 147, and not the actually champion.
Clottey, Manny put on a couple of pounds for this one. Maybe he "grew" into the WW division in this one. But, this is the fight where he looked sluggish and slow supposedly due to those extra couple of pounds.
Why did he move up then to fight Margarito if he looked sluggish??
Easy, fighting a guy coming off a career defining KO loss and a fight where he looked past it at 154. For the Vacant belt. Not even a ranked 154 pounder. That's why he "moved" up in weight.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter
dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
Oscar, at the time Manny was a LW (not super FW) Oscar's last fight was at 150 with Forbes. Day of the fight for Manny was 145+ I believe against Diaz and 144 Marquez.
Manny only skipped LWW to fight Oscar. Don't people say he just stopped cutting weight and not really grew much at all??
Cotto, I just see no explanation not even from you for this one. And yes if he could fight Oscar at 147 and not Cotto, there has to be a little picking going on. I'm not going to give him a go if he could fight a non-champ at 147, and not the actually champion.
Clottey, Manny put on a couple of pounds for this one. Maybe he "grew" into the WW division in this one. But, this is the fight where he looked sluggish and slow supposedly due to those extra couple of pounds.
Why did he move up then to fight Margarito if he looked sluggish??
Easy, fighting a guy coming off a career defining KO loss and a fight where he looked past it at 154. For the Vacant belt. Not even a ranked 154 pounder. That's why he "moved" up in weight.
I said Manny was a superfeatherweight when negotiations for the Oscar fight began which he was. Diaz was part of his journey to Oscar, just as Oscar's fight with Forbes was part of his coming down to Manny.
Manny's weight that you mention is interesting. Manny did indeed climb over the ropes at lightweight, and even superfeather at not much more than he does now.
That's why it's so remarkable. He hasn't reallly gotten any bigger, he's just fighting bigger men. Against Margarito he stepped into the ring weighing only 148lb compared to Margarito's 165lbs.
This also explains his preference for catchweights. Extra weight only favours his opponents as Manny crucially isn't getting any bigger.
Had the Margarito fight been a 154lb weighin the on the night fight weights would probably have been Manny 148 Margarito 168 or even higher. He could have been outweighed by 20 lbs.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter
dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.
Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter
dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.
Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.
Yeah, Oscar really clowned himself for this fight.
But he was moving down to Forbes, to try to get a potential rematch with Floyd at 147 pounds. Not Manny, if i remember.
Am I missing the negotiations that started with Pac/DLH immediately after Marquez II?
Because if I remember correctly Manny needed to move up by then and chose to get a paper title with Diaz, instead of facing Casamayor. Marquez chasing Pacquiao up in weight, fought Casamayor to prove a point.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter
dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.
Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.
Yeah, Oscar really clowned himself for this fight.
But he was moving down to Forbes, to try to get a potential rematch with Floyd at 147 pounds. Not Manny, if i remember.
Am I missing the negotiations that started with Pac/DLH immediately after Marquez II?
Because if I remember correctly Manny needed to move up by then and chose to get a paper title with Diaz, instead of facing Casamayor. Marquez chasing Pacquiao up in weight, fought Casamayor to prove a point.
I think the negotiations were long going on in the background. Oscar had already lost at 154 to Floyd. Manny was the only big cash cow out there for Oscar. He saw Shane move back down and easily beat up Louis Collazo. He remembered Bernard Hopkins dropping 4 lbs and knocking Oscar himself out and so he doubtless licked his lips at the prospect of dragging the little Filipino up to the welterweight division where he could win a nice risk free fight and walk off with suitcases full of cash.
In one of the more spectacular strategic blunders in history Oscar underestimated Manny and was humiliated and embarrassed on boxing's biggest stage.
A result which has led to me love Manny Pacquaio ever since :D
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter
dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.
Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.
Yeah, Oscar really clowned himself for this fight.
But he was moving down to Forbes, to try to get a potential rematch with Floyd at 147 pounds. Not Manny, if i remember.
Am I missing the negotiations that started with Pac/DLH immediately after Marquez II?
Because if I remember correctly Manny needed to move up by then and chose to get a paper title with Diaz, instead of facing Casamayor. Marquez chasing Pacquiao up in weight, fought Casamayor to prove a point.
I think the negotiations were long going on in the background. Oscar had already lost at 154 to Floyd. Manny was the only big cash cow out there for Oscar. He saw Shane move back down and easily beat up Louis Collazo. He remembered Bernard Hopkins dropping 4 lbs and knocking Oscar himself out and so he doubtless licked his lips at the prospect of dragging the little Filipino up to the welterweight division where he could win a nice risk free fight and walk off with suitcases full of cash.
In one of the more spectacular strategic blunders in history Oscar underestimated Manny and was humiliated and embarrassed on boxing's biggest stage.
A result which has led to me love Manny Pacquaio ever since :D
Oscar clearly fooled himself weighing in less than Pacquiao on fight night.
Not only that but he was in the low 40's during training camp for that fight.
Pacquiao was not much of a cash-cow then, but he was a name.
I think negotiations started when Floyd retired, and Oscar had already planned moving down.
-
Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hardcore_crash
Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.
Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.
Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.
I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***
Well let's go through them one by one.
Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.
Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.
Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit
Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.
Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?
People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.
The only fighter
dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.
Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.
Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.
Yeah, Oscar really clowned himself for this fight.
But he was moving down to Forbes, to try to get a potential rematch with Floyd at 147 pounds. Not Manny, if i remember.
Am I missing the negotiations that started with Pac/DLH immediately after Marquez II?
Because if I remember correctly Manny needed to move up by then and chose to get a paper title with Diaz, instead of facing Casamayor. Marquez chasing Pacquiao up in weight, fought Casamayor to prove a point.
I think the negotiations were long going on in the background. Oscar had already lost at 154 to Floyd. Manny was the only big cash cow out there for Oscar. He saw Shane move back down and easily beat up Louis Collazo. He remembered Bernard Hopkins dropping 4 lbs and knocking Oscar himself out and so he doubtless licked his lips at the prospect of dragging the little Filipino up to the welterweight division where he could win a nice risk free fight and walk off with suitcases full of cash.
In one of the more spectacular strategic blunders in history Oscar underestimated Manny and was humiliated and embarrassed on boxing's biggest stage.
A result which has led to me love Manny Pacquaio ever since :D
Oscar clearly fooled himself weighing in less than Pacquiao on fight night.
Not only that but he was in the low 40's during training camp for that fight.
Pacquiao was not much of a cash-cow then, but he was a name.
I think negotiations started when Floyd retired, and Oscar had already planned moving down.
Manny vs Oscar was the third biggest non heavyweight fight in history, he was definitely a cash cow. Only Floyd and Ricky Hatton could compare. Oscar also wanted Hatton but couldn't get that fight and Floyd didn't want a rematch so Manny was the only choice for a greedy multimillionaire to cash in with his last fight.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Based on the fights i have seen, my vote goes to Funeka/Guzman 1.
Funeka beat his ass clearly, but the judges seen otherwise. :rolleyes:
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
I have to say this, I think it is blatantly dishonest and a revision of history to even suggest that Pacquiao bullied/forced Oscar to fight at Welterweight. The most successful boxer financially was never forced to do anything in his career. Oscar always had the advantage in negotiations.
Chavez, Whitaker, Quartey, Vargas, Trinidad, Hopkins, Gatti, Mayweather, and Pacquiao were the ones dictated to by Oscar in negotiations, no one ever dictated anything to Oscar. As I've said before that is blatantly dishonest to suggest he was forced by Pacquiao to fight at 147 for a big payday.
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Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I have to say this, I think it is blatantly dishonest and a revision of history to even suggest that Pacquiao bullied/forced Oscar to fight at Welterweight. The most successful boxer financially was never forced to do anything in his career. Oscar always had the advantage in negotiations.
Chavez, Whitaker, Quartey, Vargas, Trinidad, Hopkins, Gatti, Mayweather, and Pacquiao were the ones dictated to by Oscar in negotiations, no one ever dictated anything to Oscar. As I've said before that is blatantly dishonest to suggest he was forced by Pacquiao to fight at 147 for a big payday.
I hope you are not talking about me on this one.
Oscar was the bully against Pacquiao, and way too overconfident. He made a huge mistake, IMO, taking that fight with Pacquiao.
Especially as I previously stated, he was in the low 40's during the camp and actually tried to put on the weight during the last week or two.
I will never forget Oscar saying during the 24/7 ,"There will be a knockout"
Completely backfired on him.
