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Just for remembering how Shane once was. If he could awaken this person inside of him one last time it will be FOTY. Like I said I'm sure he knows 'how' to beat Pacquiao, its just about if he still has the ability and timing to implement it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxHY2V1CKDw
We can only hope .He isnt only going have to pull the trigger; he is going to have to be pulling it all over the show cause thats where Pac will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Some great stuff there he really set up alot of stuff with that skip in jab in his early stuff. He had some great reactions even when he was attacking; you see him shooting combos and even checking an opponents free arm occasionally right in between the shots sometimes by just leaving the arm out and turning slightly to check it. Great to watch him in the zone like that. Hope he can do all it again.
Pacquiao in 6, corner stoppage.
Very true. And likely it will be Brother Nazeem creating the official stoppage when he is forced to throw in the towel.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Cotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Hatton - Maybe he did look improved against Malinaggi but it was 2 years after Malinaggi already got roughed up by Cotto. Plus Hatton had already lost to Mayweather a full 2 years before meeting Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Cotto - This one is ok. But there was the beating from Margarito (who possibly cheated). Interestingly, Pac was Cotto's 3rd fight in 2009. Cotto bit off a lot not long after the Magarito loss. Maybe too much.
Margarito - Beaten by Mosley. Next he wins a 10 round decision against Garcia? Hmmmm Margarito can obviously take punishment, but his fight with Cotto seems to be the last time he could really dish it out, so it leaves question marks about Margaritos actual punch power.
Morales - Well, fighting Pac right after losing by UD... That would seem to me the definition of a weak showing. Sure, he beat Pac earlier, but he seemed "hot/cold" at that time. Just prior to beating Pac by UD, he had lost to Barrera by MD.
All in all, there is a little truth to the sentiment expressed. Hatton, Cotto, and Margarito met Pacquiao after trying to recover from rather major defeats except for Morales, which I just explained.
And now, Mosley. No explanation needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjaspy3Hatton - Maybe he did look improved against Malinaggi but it was 2 years after Malinaggi already got roughed up by Cotto. Plus Hatton had already lost to Mayweather a full 2 years before meeting Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Cotto - This one is ok. But there was the beating from Margarito (who possibly cheated). Interestingly, Pac was Cotto's 3rd fight in 2009. Cotto bit off a lot not long after the Magarito loss. Maybe too much.
Margarito - Beaten by Mosley. Next he wins a 10 round decision against Garcia? Hmmmm Margarito can obviously take punishment, but his fight with Cotto seems to be the last time he could really dish it out, so it leaves question marks about Margaritos actual punch power.
Morales - Well, fighting Pac right after losing by UD... That would seem to me the definition of a weak showing. Sure, he beat Pac earlier, but he seemed "hot/cold" at that time. Just prior to beating Pac by UD, he had lost to Barrera by MD.
All in all, there is a little truth to the sentiment expressed. Hatton, Cotto, and Margarito met Pacquiao after trying to recover from rather major defeats except for Morales, which I just explained.
And now, Mosley. No explanation needed.
People are picking on this list because Pacquiao has destroyed EVERYONE yes every LARGE MAN put in front of him. so we find an answer on why it happened?
Morales - Morales beat Pac the 1st time so objectively Pacquiao needs to beat him right? Morales is a big star Pacquiao is a big star so WTF? he needs to fight him again how can you object to this fight.
Hatton - What was the best fight for Pacquiao at the time? Yeah i agree it was the Lineal Jr. Welter champion Ricky Hatton
Cotto - Yeah he lost to Margarito so that means he's not worthy for Pacquiao who also lost not once but thrice????. Cotto is bigger than Pacquiao Cotto is younger than Pacquiao there's no fvcking way a rational boxing afficionado would criticize a Cotto match except for the catch weight. Oscar wasnt a catch weight because its Oscar period but againts Cotto. team Pac thought it was necessary so Cotto came in 145 from 146 againts Clottey. (There's should have been no catchweight)
Margarito - You did not get the 1st post. The Margarito that showed againts Pacquiao was the optimum version. That version absorbed punishment the same way he has done in the past.
* Pacquiao is fast enough and has enough power to mandhandle this big guys and not because of made up bollocks.
I think that's going to be key. He'll see the openings but will he be able to react quick enough to take advantage? I'm not so sure he will. I hope he can pull something out and at least be competitive, but I think he'll get pulled out by his corner around about the 9th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by miron_langQuote:
Originally Posted by ninjaspy3Hatton - Maybe he did look improved against Malinaggi but it was 2 years after Malinaggi already got roughed up by Cotto. Plus Hatton had already lost to Mayweather a full 2 years before meeting Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Cotto - This one is ok. But there was the beating from Margarito (who possibly cheated). Interestingly, Pac was Cotto's 3rd fight in 2009. Cotto bit off a lot not long after the Magarito loss. Maybe too much.
Margarito - Beaten by Mosley. Next he wins a 10 round decision against Garcia? Hmmmm Margarito can obviously take punishment, but his fight with Cotto seems to be the last time he could really dish it out, so it leaves question marks about Margaritos actual punch power.
Morales - Well, fighting Pac right after losing by UD... That would seem to me the definition of a weak showing. Sure, he beat Pac earlier, but he seemed "hot/cold" at that time. Just prior to beating Pac by UD, he had lost to Barrera by MD.
All in all, there is a little truth to the sentiment expressed. Hatton, Cotto, and Margarito met Pacquiao after trying to recover from rather major defeats except for Morales, which I just explained.
And now, Mosley. No explanation needed.
People are picking on this list because Pacquiao has destroyed EVERYONE yes every LARGE MAN put in front of him. so we find an answer on why it happened?
Morales - Morales beat Pac the 1st time so objectively Pacquiao needs to beat him right? Morales is a big star Pacquiao is a big star so WTF? he needs to fight him again how can you object to this fight.
Hatton - What was the best fight for Pacquiao at the time? Yeah i agree it was the Lineal Jr. Welter champion Ricky Hatton
Cotto - Yeah he lost to Margarito so that means he's not worthy for Pacquiao who also lost not once but thrice????. Cotto is bigger than Pacquiao Cotto is younger than Pacquiao there's no fvcking way a rational boxing afficionado would criticize a Cotto match except for the catch weight. Oscar wasnt a catch weight because its Oscar period but againts Cotto. team Pac thought it was necessary so Cotto came in 145 from 146 againts Clottey. (There's should have been no catchweight)
Margarito - You did not get the 1st post. The Margarito that showed againts Pacquiao was the optimum version. That version absorbed punishment the same way he has done in the past.
* Pacquiao is fast enough and has enough power to mandhandle this big guys and not because of made up bollocks.
I can agree with the reason for fighting Hatton but it doesnt make Hatton's previous performance look better. The same goes with Morales.
Regarding Cotto losing the way he did to Mrgarito is the point I was making. Of course Pac is a great fighter but I still think Cotto had it a bit hard.
And what is this "optimum" Margarito everyone is mentioning. What is it making him so great all of a sudden on the night he fought Pac as opposed to his previous 2 fights? Because he "looked" in good shape?
The fact that Pac is a great fighter need not make all other points untrue.
Meh. Name me 1 fighter in boxing history where you cannot pick apart his resume. There is no such thing as a flawless resume.
And BTW, the majority of people here had Hatton beating Pac, and at least half of the forum had Cotto beating him. And quite a few had Margarito beating Pac. Same people in this thread too. Hell it's the same on other boxing forums too. But after the victories it was some excuse.
Except the great Sven Ottke ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I agree with this 100%. If this fight becomes competitive and it does not outshine Mayweather's win against Mosley, then it may draw Floyd out to fight Manny. If Shane does not have the power behind his punches anymore, maybe Manny can just go along with it for a not so dominating win. But if Mosley can still hurt, then Pacquiao has to put him away soon before Shane gets lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre:-\ We'll never see Mayweather fight him if he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I think he will hurt Shane eventually mess him up, maybe stop him.
I still believe Mosley has a chance in this fight no matter how slim it may be. We can never tell. Just watch Hopkins and Morales.
Sugar shane will be stopped for the first time in his career,it could off happened in the Mayweather fight but floyd chose to ease home instead of finishing shane.Pac man wont be so kind to sugar shane in this fight ,manny will be wary of shane,s power which has not diminished,and will pound him into retirement.
I dunno. Good luck picking apart Greb's or Robinson's or Canzoneri's or Barney Ross's or Muhammad Ali's or Joe Louis' or Willie Pep's.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Perfect isn't possible, we are human after all. But the word overwhelming comes to mind.
the pressure is on Pac because PBF was so dominant in his fight with Shane anything other than a kayo will be a disappointment on most fans. 2 scenarios here: my guess would be if Pac uses the lateral movement he used vs odlh and not stay inside for too long it might just end up like the odlh fight. shane's weapons here are clinch left hook to the body lil space straight right repeat process, down goes Pac:eek: hopefully not
Serious question here, does anyone think that if this fight goes past 5 Mosley will have enough left to do anything damaging?
you forgot the jab.jab overhand right that he likes to repeat for rounds on end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
I'm pretty sure I could do it with Ali since I've seen almost all of his bouts and his biggest bouts have all been written extensively and the circumstances surrounding the fights, I can't say the same thing about the rest of the fighters you listed because there are just a few clips here and there of their career.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI dunno. Good luck picking apart Greb's or Robinson's or Canzoneri's or Barney Ross's or Muhammad Ali's or Joe Louis' or Willie Pep's.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Perfect isn't possible, we are human after all. But the word overwhelming comes to mind.
I'll tear down Ali's resume right here.
Cooper 1: A club fighter that had Ali seriously hurt in round 4 and the controversy with the split glove incident. Not a great win.
Liston I: How old was Sonny Liston again? No one knows, there are rumors he was pushing close to 40 in their first fight and he only train for a few rounds, not expecting it would last long.
Liston 2: A lot of controversy. Phantom punch anyone? And Ali was never a 1 shot ko artist in his career, but he hurt Liston? And Liston seemed like he was acting, got up, got pummel by Ali a little and Jersey Walcott stopped it.
Patterson 1 and 2: Patterson was 187 pounds against Ali who was around 210-215 during this period. Patterson is basically a LHW by today's modern terms if rehydration is factor in. Plus Patterson was known to be chinny. Never a great HW champ.
Frazier 1: lost decisively in the fight of the century.
Frazier 2: Many people considered Frazier to be close to shot in this fight. NOt a great win with hindsight.
Frazier 3: went life and death with what seemed to be a washed up Frazier. Even Dundee and Ali thought he was shot coming into this fight that's why they wanted it. Ali later admitted he didn't want to come out for the 15th but Futch threw in the towel instead. But it's Frazier that gets the bad rap.
Norton 1,2,3: It can be strongly argued that Ali lost 2 of 3 not Norton. All 3 fights were extremely close and Norton has a strong argument that he won at least 2 of 3 and possibly all 3.
Foreman: Foreman suffered a cut during training camp, plus he was harrassed and hated by locals and didn't have a great training camp. Also Ali never gave him a rematch.
Leon Spinks 1 and 2: A mediocre fighter who had only 7 or 8 pro fights and beat Ali. Ali would regain the title but come on it's Leon Spinks!
So you see it's not hard to tear down any fighter's resume. Just need to have some background info and fight footage for their biggest bouts and tear away one can. Of course I don't believe in all that. BUt that was an example.
In brutal fashion I think...
Cotto - Destroyed by Margarito, came back against fluffQuote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Hatton - Knocked out by both the post and Mayweather. Malignaggi has since proven that he is far from elite, plus can't punch
Margarito - Destroyed by Mosley. A year out banned.
Morales - Loss to some guy who none of us can remember. Weight drained and stopped against Pac
Mosley - 2 crappy performances on the trot, older than the rest of the previous opponents combined.
Manny is great, Manny also picks carefully.
Quite true. Amen to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepExcept the great Sven Ottke ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
LOL. You just describe some negative stuffs in your mind about those fighters. You mean they are the reason they got the fight againts Pacquiao?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesCotto - Destroyed by Margarito, came back against fluffQuote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Hatton - Knocked out by both the post and Mayweather. Malignaggi has since proven that he is far from elite, plus can't punch
Margarito - Destroyed by Mosley. A year out banned.
Morales - Loss to some guy who none of us can remember. Weight drained and stopped against Pac
Mosley - 2 crappy performances on the trot, older than the rest of the previous opponents combined.
Manny is great, Manny also picks carefully.
Bulldogs above post is actually a good reply to this post.
---
i see your memory is not as good as it used to be. but i still like to ask you this question.
Before these fights took place do you remember how you feel leading up this so called cherry picked fights?
:D
No offense Miles, but you can't make excuses now after those victories. When if I'm not mistaken you were one of the loudest supporters that Hatton and Cotto would murder Pac. You can't be Nastradamus now after the fact and make excuses why Hatton and Cotto lost. If you felt that way then maybe you should have said it beforehand and said Pac would win those fights easily and not come out with excuses now after the fights took place and they lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesCotto - Destroyed by Margarito, came back against fluffQuote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Hatton - Knocked out by both the post and Mayweather. Malignaggi has since proven that he is far from elite, plus can't punch
Margarito - Destroyed by Mosley. A year out banned.
Morales - Loss to some guy who none of us can remember. Weight drained and stopped against Pac
Mosley - 2 crappy performances on the trot, older than the rest of the previous opponents combined.
Manny is great, Manny also picks carefully.
That's one thing that always bother me about boxing fans that they come out with every excuse to downgrade another fighter's win, when they picked the other guy to win in the first place.
I was a huge supporter of Hatton winning the fight. It was the last time I ever jumped into the ring building up a fighter. Just as some men marry and deny their secret gayness, a fan will get behind his fighter and ignore the chinks. I did just that and I learned a valuable lesson (chinks, not marriage.... though some of you might argue otherwise). I was wrong. With Cotto I was much more guarded and was quite angry about the catchweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo offense Miles, but you can't make excuses now after those victories. When if I'm not mistaken you were one of the loudest supporters that Hatton and Cotto would murder Pac. You can't be Nastradamus now after the fact and make excuses why Hatton and Cotto lost. If you felt that way then maybe you should have said it beforehand and said Pac would win those fights easily and not come out with excuses now after the fights took place and they lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesCotto - Destroyed by Margarito, came back against fluffQuote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Hatton - Knocked out by both the post and Mayweather. Malignaggi has since proven that he is far from elite, plus can't punch
Margarito - Destroyed by Mosley. A year out banned.
Morales - Loss to some guy who none of us can remember. Weight drained and stopped against Pac
Mosley - 2 crappy performances on the trot, older than the rest of the previous opponents combined.
Manny is great, Manny also picks carefully.
That's one thing that always bother me about boxing fans that they come out with every excuse to downgrade another fighter's win, when they picked the other guy to win in the first place.
None of us really knew how Manny would carry the weight. History is not written in the present, views are often revised. Just as we realised that WMD didn't exist, we also came to realise that there was a pattern in how Manny chose opponents.
That is why I try not to underestimate fighters too unfairly these days. Those recent performances do mean something. And you do see a pattern in Manny's recent opponents. All very good fighters, but typically coming in off of a nasty beating or dropping weight when they shouldn't.
Manny is still an exceptional fighter though.
There were even those rumours of Hatton getting busted up in training. What did I do? I ignored it. The enemy was bombing away over the bunker and there was Hitler saying "we shall resist and beat them yet". I put my head in the sand and I deserve to be called out on that fight. One can still revise ones opinion though, just as Blair might admit that he was wrong about WMD, I can say that I was wrong about that fight. I was wrong, hands up. But this is boxing, unless you back the favourite everytime, then you are going to fuck up in your predictions sometimes. It's a sport, man against man, it isn't a place where logic is always the deciding factor. You support a guy, you must get behind him. Though I don't do it anymore. That fight changed me.
Ah, but here's the thing though. You can do that with any fighter in the history of the sport and downgrade their victory and question it. It just sounds a lot like sour grapes to me. Did you not see my post on Muhammad Ali's resume on the last page of this thread? Ali is considered by many to be the sport's greatest HW especially in terms of achievement and resume. And I shredded and downgrade his best performances like it's nothing. Another member here said that it's hard to shred some resume, I said if one wants to they can do it for any fighter in history if they have the information of what went on and films of those fights beforehand.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI was a huge supporter of Hatton winning the fight. It was the last time I ever jumped into the ring building up a fighter. Just as some men marry and deny their secret gayness, a fan will get behind his fighter and ignore the chinks. I did just that and I learned a valuable lesson (chinks, not marriage.... though some of you might argue otherwise). I was wrong. With Cotto I was much more guarded and was quite angry about the catchweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo offense Miles, but you can't make excuses now after those victories. When if I'm not mistaken you were one of the loudest supporters that Hatton and Cotto would murder Pac. You can't be Nastradamus now after the fact and make excuses why Hatton and Cotto lost. If you felt that way then maybe you should have said it beforehand and said Pac would win those fights easily and not come out with excuses now after the fights took place and they lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesCotto - Destroyed by Margarito, came back against fluffQuote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Hatton - Knocked out by both the post and Mayweather. Malignaggi has since proven that he is far from elite, plus can't punch
Margarito - Destroyed by Mosley. A year out banned.
Morales - Loss to some guy who none of us can remember. Weight drained and stopped against Pac
Mosley - 2 crappy performances on the trot, older than the rest of the previous opponents combined.
Manny is great, Manny also picks carefully.
That's one thing that always bother me about boxing fans that they come out with every excuse to downgrade another fighter's win, when they picked the other guy to win in the first place.
None of us really knew how Manny would carry the weight. History is not written in the present, views are often revised. Just as we realised that WMD didn't exist, we also came to realise that there was a pattern in how Manny chose opponents.
That is why I try not to underestimate fighters too unfairly these days. Those recent performances do mean something. And you do see a pattern in Manny's recent opponents. All very good fighters, but typically coming in off of a nasty beating or dropping weight when they shouldn't.
Manny is still an exceptional fighter though.
I think you did mentioned your favorite fighters were MAB and Hatton. Someone with enough info can shred their resume and downgrade their achievements like it's nothing, but that just makes one look like that they have an agenda.
In modern slang today it's called "haterism.";)
Even at the time I criticised each of Pac's recent opponents from Cotto and beyond. I was critical of Diaz too, but everyone was. The only one I went blind with was Hatton and he was one of my top 3 favourites.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogAh, but here's the thing though. You can do that with any fighter in the history of the sport and downgrade their victory and question it. It just sounds a lot like sour grapes to me. Did you not see my post on Muhammad Ali's resume on the last page of this thread? Ali is considered by many to be the sport's greatest HW especially in terms of achievement and resume. And I shredded and downgrade his best performances like it's nothing. Another member here said that it's hard to shred some resume, I said if one wants to they can do it for any fighter in history if they have the information of what went on and films of those fights beforehand.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI was a huge supporter of Hatton winning the fight. It was the last time I ever jumped into the ring building up a fighter. Just as some men marry and deny their secret gayness, a fan will get behind his fighter and ignore the chinks. I did just that and I learned a valuable lesson (chinks, not marriage.... though some of you might argue otherwise). I was wrong. With Cotto I was much more guarded and was quite angry about the catchweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo offense Miles, but you can't make excuses now after those victories. When if I'm not mistaken you were one of the loudest supporters that Hatton and Cotto would murder Pac. You can't be Nastradamus now after the fact and make excuses why Hatton and Cotto lost. If you felt that way then maybe you should have said it beforehand and said Pac would win those fights easily and not come out with excuses now after the fights took place and they lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesCotto - Destroyed by Margarito, came back against fluffQuote:
Originally Posted by miron_langCotto - Back to back wins before facing PacquiaoQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
Hatton - Looks so much improved in the Malinaggi fight. Memory problems?
Margarito - Yeah he didnt look all that againts his trainer but. He looked in the best form of his life againts Pacquiao.
Morales - Yeah he lost to Zahir Fu_cking Raheem he was so dejected in this fight that after 12 rounds Raheem was still trying to run and he was still tryin to knock him out. Just 10 months before he did something that not even Barrera in 2 tries, Marquez in 2 tries, Cotto, Margarito, DelaHoya, Hatton and Clottey wasnt able to do. yeah he beat Manny Pacquiao.
etc - Yeah maybe.
Hatton - Knocked out by both the post and Mayweather. Malignaggi has since proven that he is far from elite, plus can't punch
Margarito - Destroyed by Mosley. A year out banned.
Morales - Loss to some guy who none of us can remember. Weight drained and stopped against Pac
Mosley - 2 crappy performances on the trot, older than the rest of the previous opponents combined.
Manny is great, Manny also picks carefully.
That's one thing that always bother me about boxing fans that they come out with every excuse to downgrade another fighter's win, when they picked the other guy to win in the first place.
None of us really knew how Manny would carry the weight. History is not written in the present, views are often revised. Just as we realised that WMD didn't exist, we also came to realise that there was a pattern in how Manny chose opponents.
That is why I try not to underestimate fighters too unfairly these days. Those recent performances do mean something. And you do see a pattern in Manny's recent opponents. All very good fighters, but typically coming in off of a nasty beating or dropping weight when they shouldn't.
Manny is still an exceptional fighter though.
I think you did mentioned your favorite fighters were MAB and Hatton. Someone with enough info can shred their resume and downgrade their achievements like it's nothing, but that just makes one look like that they have an agenda.
In modern slang today it's called "haterism.";)
On the whole only the Hatton performance has seen me undergo any revisionism. Take away that and you still have much the same perspective.
Everyone fucks up their predictions. But give credit where it's due that's what I'm saying. Stop going with excuses. Now it's because Hatton had a bad training camp and was getting busted up that's why he lost? Hatton on his best night would still lose to Pac on his best. Why? Because the talent gap was enormous. Hatton may have lasted 2 or 3 more rounds, but he would never beat Pac. He just doesn't have it, whether it's handspeed, footspeed, chin, boxing ability, compared to Pac. That's the reality, 1 fighter was just better.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Now it's very easy to say that with hindsight too. I bet you weren't so sure of that at the time though, you probably hedged your views. Nobody expected what we saw that night. Nobody thought Hatton would get blown away that easily. It was a shocker, even Manny had no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogEveryone fucks up their predictions. But give credit where it's due that's what I'm saying. Stop going with excuses. Now it's because Hatton had a bad training camp and was getting busted up that's why he lost? Hatton on his best night would still lose to Pac on his best. Why? Because the talent gap was enormous. Hatton may have lasted 2 or 3 more rounds, but he would never beat Pac. He just doesn't have it, whether it's handspeed, footspeed, chin, boxing ability, compared to Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I actually thought Pac would get him late rounds on cuts because Hatton bruises and cuts easily. It's been like that in his career. I didn't think it would be a blowout in the early rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesNow it's very easy to say that with hindsight too. I bet you weren't so sure of that at the time though, you probably hedged your views. Nobody expected what we saw that night. Nobody thought Hatton would get blown away that easily. It was a shocker, even Manny had no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogEveryone fucks up their predictions. But give credit where it's due that's what I'm saying. Stop going with excuses. Now it's because Hatton had a bad training camp and was getting busted up that's why he lost? Hatton on his best night would still lose to Pac on his best. Why? Because the talent gap was enormous. Hatton may have lasted 2 or 3 more rounds, but he would never beat Pac. He just doesn't have it, whether it's handspeed, footspeed, chin, boxing ability, compared to Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Now are you saying that the best Hatton would beat the best version of Pac?
He would likely have done better, much better. The Hatton that walked through Kostya was more resistant and the Hatton prior to that was more skilled. Those things would likely have made it a tougher fight for Manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI actually thought Pac would get him late rounds on cuts because Hatton bruises and cuts easily. It's been like that in his career. I didn't think it would be a blowout in the early rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesNow it's very easy to say that with hindsight too. I bet you weren't so sure of that at the time though, you probably hedged your views. Nobody expected what we saw that night. Nobody thought Hatton would get blown away that easily. It was a shocker, even Manny had no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogEveryone fucks up their predictions. But give credit where it's due that's what I'm saying. Stop going with excuses. Now it's because Hatton had a bad training camp and was getting busted up that's why he lost? Hatton on his best night would still lose to Pac on his best. Why? Because the talent gap was enormous. Hatton may have lasted 2 or 3 more rounds, but he would never beat Pac. He just doesn't have it, whether it's handspeed, footspeed, chin, boxing ability, compared to Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Now are you saying that the best Hatton would beat the best version of Pac?
Hatton probably (see the hedging) wouldn't have won, but it's only now that we have all seen Pac settle into the weights that we realise that he can fight at the weights. He was an unknown quantity at 140. None of us knew if he had the chin or if he would carry the power. In that sense our views of Manny have been revising too. It is a perfectly natural thing to do.
Lokk for a Hagler/Hearns for the 1st 2 rounds and a half. But the old man is gassed by the 5th.
Of course Hatton would have done better. He may even win too if he had Dave Parris reffing that fight like when he fought Kostya.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by milesHe would likely have done better, much better. The Hatton that walked through Kostya was more resistant and the Hatton prior to that was more skilled. Those things would likely have made it a tougher fight for Manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI actually thought Pac would get him late rounds on cuts because Hatton bruises and cuts easily. It's been like that in his career. I didn't think it would be a blowout in the early rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesNow it's very easy to say that with hindsight too. I bet you weren't so sure of that at the time though, you probably hedged your views. Nobody expected what we saw that night. Nobody thought Hatton would get blown away that easily. It was a shocker, even Manny had no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogEveryone fucks up their predictions. But give credit where it's due that's what I'm saying. Stop going with excuses. Now it's because Hatton had a bad training camp and was getting busted up that's why he lost? Hatton on his best night would still lose to Pac on his best. Why? Because the talent gap was enormous. Hatton may have lasted 2 or 3 more rounds, but he would never beat Pac. He just doesn't have it, whether it's handspeed, footspeed, chin, boxing ability, compared to Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Now are you saying that the best Hatton would beat the best version of Pac?
Hatton probably (see the hedging) wouldn't have won, but it's only now that we have all seen Pac settle into the weights that we realise that he can fight at the weights. He was an unknown quantity at 140. None of us knew if he had the chin or if he would carry the power. In that sense our views of Manny have been revising too. It is a perfectly natural thing to do.
You know Margarito was really strong and had the stamina to last but didn't have the speed to catch Manny consistently. Mosley has the quickness to catch Manny consistently, the only doubt I have is can he pull the trigger and does he have the stamina in that 39 year old body?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I know it's the hype but from all the coverage on Manny, I believe he has prepared to go to war. I think like the date the 7th is when it happens.
Out of all of Pacquiao's recent performances, the one over Margarito might have been the most impressive, Margarito looked huge compared to Manny, and for the most part Pacquiao totally dominated him.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou know Margarito was really strong and had the stamina to last but didn't have the speed to catch Manny consistently. Mosley has the quickness to catch Manny consistently, the only doubt I have is can he pull the trigger and does he have the stamina in that 39 year old body?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I know it's the hype but from all the coverage on Manny, I believe he has prepared to go to war. I think like the date the 7th is when it happens.
In re: Mosley, if he wasn't 39 (ancient for his weight class) and I hadn't seen his last 2 fights, I might think he's got decent chance of winning. Like a couple people have already said on this thread, Shane might make it interesting for a few rounds, but it won't be long before Pacquiao gets in his usual rhythm and starts to pummel Mosley, with little effective punching coming back in return.
Let's not forget that Pacquiao is the #1 P4P fighter in the world, at the apex of his game, and on a roll right now. Like I said in the OP, the only real question is not if Manny wins, but whether or not he can stop Shane, I think he does before the 9th round, unless Pacquiao has mercy on him, like he did Margarito.
Nice post. I've seen Shane's last two fights too and if Floyd can frsutrate Shane with his speed? What the hell is Manny going to do with him with comparable speed throwing three times as often? Plus in the Floyd fight, Shane's balance still seemed ok, in his last fight Shane was, at times, stumbling around like a drunk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axOut of all of Pacquiao's recent performances, the one over Margarito might have been the most impressive, Margarito looked huge compared to Manny, and for the most part Pacquiao totally dominated him.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou know Margarito was really strong and had the stamina to last but didn't have the speed to catch Manny consistently. Mosley has the quickness to catch Manny consistently, the only doubt I have is can he pull the trigger and does he have the stamina in that 39 year old body?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I know it's the hype but from all the coverage on Manny, I believe he has prepared to go to war. I think like the date the 7th is when it happens.
In re: Mosley, if he wasn't 39 (ancient for his weight class) and I hadn't seen his last 2 fights, I might think he's got decent chance of winning. Like a couple people have already said on this thread, Shane might make it interesting for a few rounds, but it won't be long before Pacquiao gets in his usual rhythm and starts to pummel Mosley, with little effective punching coming back in return.
Let's not forget that Pacquiao is the #1 P4P fighter in the world, at the apex of his game, and on a roll right now. Like I said in the OP, the only real question is not if Manny wins, but whether or not he can stop Shane, I think he does before the 9th round, unless Pacquiao has mercy on him, like he did Margarito.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axOut of all of Pacquiao's recent performances, the one over Margarito might have been the most impressive, Margarito looked huge compared to Manny, and for the most part Pacquiao totally dominated him.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou know Margarito was really strong and had the stamina to last but didn't have the speed to catch Manny consistently. Mosley has the quickness to catch Manny consistently, the only doubt I have is can he pull the trigger and does he have the stamina in that 39 year old body?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I know it's the hype but from all the coverage on Manny, I believe he has prepared to go to war. I think like the date the 7th is when it happens.
In re: Mosley, if he wasn't 39 (ancient for his weight class) and I hadn't seen his last 2 fights, I might think he's got decent chance of winning. Like a couple people have already said on this thread, Shane might make it interesting for a few rounds, but it won't be long before Pacquiao gets in his usual rhythm and starts to pummel Mosley, with little effective punching coming back in return.
Let's not forget that Pacquiao is the #1 P4P fighter in the world, at the apex of his game, and on a roll right now. Like I said in the OP, the only real question is not if Manny wins, but whether or not he can stop Shane, I think he does before the 9th round, unless Pacquiao has mercy on him, like he did Margarito.
People put way too much stock in the size of Pacquiao's opponents and how it would change the outcome, the Margarito fight wasn't at all his most impressive recently. His most impressive would probably be the Cotto performance, because even though it was predicted he'd win he dominated and stopped Cotto. Cotto at least had moderate boxing skill and power. Margarito was all size and nothing left and a shell of the man that Shane Mosley decimated. I don't think Pacquiao's performances should be looked at as impressive because he dominates a bigger opponent. Michael Moorer used to knock out heavyweights that were 30-40 pounds heavier than him but his most impressive win was Holyfield who was the same size. Size shouldn't matter into what makes a performance impressive.
had a dream that mosley landed a career ending ko punch at pac on the latter rounds. hope it doesnt happen!
I hope Shane get KOed early so he won't suffer major damage. He's one of my favorite fighters and I don't want to see him all bloodied up after the fight just like what happened to Margarito and Cotto.
:)