-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
If you want to claim Crawford P4P no.1 due to the "eye test" then fine but to try and spin his wins as even on a par with Loma is ridiculous. All this hoopla from beating a no-mark in Benavidez, a man who self-proclaimed "hardcores" were getting confused with his brother in the build up.
Crawford is without doubt a P4P worthy elite, however, the man quite simply is lacking a top drawer dance partner. He has never fought anyone getting close to the HOF.
Loma has, though? Linares, regardless of potential, did get iced by all of his best opponents prior. Walters looked good in one fight..... I’m not sure where you get ridiculous from? Postol and Gamboa were very good fighters, I just don’t see any real gulf at all...
I’m not claiming that Crawford has fought an elite opponent, but everyone keeps bringing up Linares for Loma as if he were elite. Linares is a solid fighter but is not a career defining kind of fight IMO. Linares had been stopped many times before and had close fights with decent fighters.
Walters is hard to gauge because he looked good before but took a ton of time off and just looked out of it for the Loma fight. He then hasn’t fought again. Again, not at all a bad win, but just don’t know how much better of a win than Crawford’s win against Postol.
Fenster and I already went through this before. Fenster likes to ignore the fact that Loma lost to the best guy he fought, sure there were circumstances surrounding that fight, weight, low blows, Loma's '2nd' fight etc. But at the end of the day he lost to Salido who was considered the Ring's #1 going into that fight. Linares might get to the HOF but that doesn't mean sh-t these days, Gatti is in there for example. Also Linares was crowned Ring champ in a #1 vs #3 fight. On this forum, the only guy I think that has had Linares anywhere near P4P since his losses was Spicoli. Rigo? He might get into the HOF as well, but he had to move up 2 divisions for that fight, and what was his elite win again? Donaire, who did his best work at 112.
I also view Russell Jr as Loma's best win.
I see no reason that the Postol and Walters wins can't be considered similar. What were Walters' best wins again? Donaire and Vic? Guys who were at their best at Flyweight. Crawford fought Postal at 140 after Postal had defeated the #1 guy in the division at the time Matthysse.
Indongo was a unified beltholder and if your going to give Linares a pass for his losses, at least Indongo was beaten by top guys.
Crawford was arguably the lineal champ at 135 and 140. Has Loma been lineal yet?
None of these guys have elite wins/ records yet, but no one has a more outstanding record than the others really. If you really want to go by record then Usyk is probably at the top.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
P4P threads sure get posters animated with their various views and opinions. ;D
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
I'm split. I don't think Crawfords list of opponents matches Loma. But I honestly think Crawford is more diverse with a better arsenal.
Not trolling or making this a right/wrong debate, because I think this is all subjective, just curious as to who you think Crawford beat that is as good as Linares and Walters. To me both of those guys are very tough in their own way. Linares is a hell of a technician in the ring, rangy, good power, great experience...etc., while Walters is a beast. He had a shaky performance right before Loma, so I can see how people would rank him a little lower, but the guy is an animal in the ring and Loma toyed with him and made him quit. Rigo was too small for Loma, but he is a great fighter also. Don’t give Loma as much credit due to the size difference.
Mmm yeh bud I'm actually with you there as I don't think Crawfords opponent level matches that of Lomas. As much as I like the guy I honestly don't think Crawford has faced anyone on the level of Linares. Now thats not to say that he couldn't handle the full room at 147 and I think he does, save for Spence in a match that to me is immensely close with a very very slight edge to Spence if forced to pick. I can see Crawford being somewhat susceptible to the body attack of Spence but also think that the small defensive lapses Spence has shown..gets stationary, stands tall in spots..can be exploited by a more mobile switch hitting Crawford. Power, inside work edge to Spence and I think thats what it comes down to. A fight Crawford would be well advised to keep his tongue in his mouth and resist the urge to clown.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Also, I don’t have to speak about Spence’s offer to Crawford because Bob admitted he isn’t interested while saying they want it. It’s like people don’t actually pay attention to what Bob actually says. He says he wants to negotiate but he wants it fair to all networks. That is a huge roadblock. Negotiation stops before it starts. There is no fair negotiation between ESPN and Showtime/Fox because ESPN(Arum/Crawford) don’t have the budget to compete with Showtime/Fox(Haymon/Spence). If Arum really wanted the fight he would say they will negotiate with whoever will pay the most. That is so obviously how it should be done. When you aren’t willing to do it how it should be done you aren’t willing to do it. The rest is lip service and misdirection. Not sure how many times Arum needs to lie before people understand he’s a liar.
You did the same song and dance about Loma vs Linares, and at the end of the day it got done.
Any boxing fan should know that talk is cheap. Paying attention to what anyone says outside the ring is pointless. What happens in the ring once the bell rings is all that matters.
In saying that at least Arum has presented some options, joint PPV, sharing fighters etc. What has team Spence/ Haymon/ PBC/ Showtime/ Fox mentioned so far?
You did say that Crawford isn't fighting Spence, which is true, newsflash: Spence ain't fighting Crawford either. Kind of makes the statement redundant.
Agree they will fight when the time is right, but like others have mentioned, Spence's record is far from stellar. If Thurman is still around, then he, in my opinion is the man to beat.
Haymon has most of the top guys at 147, so if anyone's to blame for Spence not getting the right fights, it's him.
If things go the norm, Spence will end up fighting Ugas. Crawford will fight his mando and things will go round and round until at least 2020. I hope I'm wrong and we can get this fight towards the end of next year.
Why say something that is redundant then say it is redundant. Of course Spence isn’t fighting Crawford. This is why I find it so peculiar people are up in arms I said Crawford isn’t fighting Spence. It’s a fact.
I could understand people being bothered if I said Crawford isn’t going to fight Spence but that’s a completely different statement and had nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was talking about the point of the thread saying Crawford is the best. As I said, easy to say when he isn’t fighting Spence.... when he does the thread will have proof or be refuted.
Edit- just looked back and saw I said when he won’t fight Spence. Poor wording on my part misrepresenting what I meant. This whole circle is actually my fault, my bad
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I wouldn't say Linares got beat by all his "best" opponents, Loma beat him when he was a three weight "world" champion, No. 1 ranked lightweight (The Ring champion), unbeaten for half-a-dozen years and had flirted in-and-out of P4P lists for a decade.
Walter's was regarded the no.1 featherweight (The Ring), unbeaten, had sparkos over former elites and was robbed - with a draw - against a man who was "robbed" against Gamboa.
Postol and Gamboa are good fighters but what makes them better on paper than Rigo, Russell Jr, Martinez, Marriaga or Sosa? Loma has a couple of HOFamers on his record inside a dozen fights.
Nobody in their right mind would pick Linares over Garcia so take the thought he was number 1 at LW and discard it because it’s simply not true.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
For example, who, if anyone, I won’t even say beat. Who thinks Linares could see round 10 against Garcia?
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I wouldn't say Linares got beat by all his "best" opponents, Loma beat him when he was a three weight "world" champion, No. 1 ranked lightweight (The Ring champion), unbeaten for half-a-dozen years and had flirted in-and-out of P4P lists for a decade.
Walter's was regarded the no.1 featherweight (The Ring), unbeaten, had sparkos over former elites and was robbed - with a draw - against a man who was "robbed" against Gamboa.
Postol and Gamboa are good fighters but what makes them better on paper than Rigo, Russell Jr, Martinez, Marriaga or Sosa? Loma has a couple of HOFamers on his record inside a dozen fights.
Nobody in their right mind would pick Linares over Garcia so take the thought he was number 1 at LW and discard it because it’s simply not true.
Exactly, Garcia was still the WBC lightweight champ, so had to be considered among the 135 pound ratings. Just like Canelo will still be considered among the 160 rankings, unless he states he is permanently moving up or doesn't fight at 160 for over a year.
It's also the reason Wlad was never lineal champ, because Vitali was still WBC champ and no would have rated Povetkin or Chagaev above Vitali.
Also I think the initial statement was that Postol and co were on par with guys on Loma's record, trying to make out that Marriaga, Sosa and Martinez are better wins than Benavidez, Horn, Indongo, Diaz, Molina, Postol, Dulorme, Beltran, Gamboa and Burns is a deception and not seeing them on par at least presents a clear bias.
Rigo may get into the HOF but it won't be for anything he did at 130. I would be surprised if Linares gets into the hall.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I wouldn't say Linares got beat by all his "best" opponents, Loma beat him when he was a three weight "world" champion, No. 1 ranked lightweight (The Ring champion), unbeaten for half-a-dozen years and had flirted in-and-out of P4P lists for a decade.
Walter's was regarded the no.1 featherweight (The Ring), unbeaten, had sparkos over former elites and was robbed - with a draw - against a man who was "robbed" against Gamboa.
Postol and Gamboa are good fighters but what makes them better on paper than Rigo, Russell Jr, Martinez, Marriaga or Sosa? Loma has a couple of HOFamers on his record inside a dozen fights.
Nobody in their right mind would pick Linares over Garcia so take the thought he was number 1 at LW and discard it because it’s simply not true.
Exactly, Garcia was still the WBC lightweight champ, so had to be considered among the 135 pound ratings. Just like Canelo will still be considered among the 160 rankings, unless he states he is permanently moving up or doesn't fight at 160 for over a year.
It's also the reason Wlad was never lineal champ, because Vitali was still WBC champ and no would have rated Povetkin or Chagaev above Vitali.
Also I think the initial statement was that Postol and co were on par with guys on Loma's record, trying to make out that Marriaga, Sosa and Martinez are better wins than Benavidez, Horn, Indongo, Diaz, Molina, Postol, Dulorme, Beltran, Gamboa and Burns is a deception and not seeing them on par at least presents a clear bias.
Rigo may get into the HOF but it won't be for anything he did at 130. I would be surprised if Linares gets into the hall.
Loma has a guy available to prove his spot, same age, same weight, Garcia.
Crawford has a chance to prove his spot with the younger Spence.
Inoue will continue to be “hey, do you all see what I’m doing? It’s insane”
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I wouldn't say Linares got beat by all his "best" opponents, Loma beat him when he was a three weight "world" champion, No. 1 ranked lightweight (The Ring champion), unbeaten for half-a-dozen years and had flirted in-and-out of P4P lists for a decade.
Walter's was regarded the no.1 featherweight (The Ring), unbeaten, had sparkos over former elites and was robbed - with a draw - against a man who was "robbed" against Gamboa.
Postol and Gamboa are good fighters but what makes them better on paper than Rigo, Russell Jr, Martinez, Marriaga or Sosa? Loma has a couple of HOFamers on his record inside a dozen fights.
Nobody in their right mind would pick Linares over Garcia so take the thought he was number 1 at LW and discard it because it’s simply not true.
Exactly, Garcia was still the WBC lightweight champ, so had to be considered among the 135 pound ratings. Just like Canelo will still be considered among the 160 rankings, unless he states he is permanently moving up or doesn't fight at 160 for over a year.
It's also the reason Wlad was never lineal champ, because Vitali was still WBC champ and no would have rated Povetkin or Chagaev above Vitali.
Also I think the initial statement was that Postol and co were on par with guys on Loma's record, trying to make out that Marriaga, Sosa and Martinez are better wins than Benavidez, Horn, Indongo, Diaz, Molina, Postol, Dulorme, Beltran, Gamboa and Burns is a deception and not seeing them on par at least presents a clear bias.
Rigo may get into the HOF but it won't be for anything he did at 130. I would be surprised if Linares gets into the hall.
Loma has a guy available to prove his spot, same age, same weight, Garcia.
Crawford has a chance to prove his spot with the younger Spence.
Inoue will continue to be “hey, do you all see what I’m doing? It’s insane”
Don't forget Usyk, or the 140 guys, or even the 115 guys. 108 fighters are also fighting each other regularly.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I wouldn't say Linares got beat by all his "best" opponents, Loma beat him when he was a three weight "world" champion, No. 1 ranked lightweight (The Ring champion), unbeaten for half-a-dozen years and had flirted in-and-out of P4P lists for a decade.
Walter's was regarded the no.1 featherweight (The Ring), unbeaten, had sparkos over former elites and was robbed - with a draw - against a man who was "robbed" against Gamboa.
Postol and Gamboa are good fighters but what makes them better on paper than Rigo, Russell Jr, Martinez, Marriaga or Sosa? Loma has a couple of HOFamers on his record inside a dozen fights.
Nobody in their right mind would pick Linares over Garcia so take the thought he was number 1 at LW and discard it because it’s simply not true.
Exactly, Garcia was still the WBC lightweight champ, so had to be considered among the 135 pound ratings. Just like Canelo will still be considered among the 160 rankings, unless he states he is permanently moving up or doesn't fight at 160 for over a year.
It's also the reason Wlad was never lineal champ, because Vitali was still WBC champ and no would have rated Povetkin or Chagaev above Vitali.
Also I think the initial statement was that Postol and co were on par with guys on Loma's record, trying to make out that Marriaga, Sosa and Martinez are better wins than Benavidez, Horn, Indongo, Diaz, Molina, Postol, Dulorme, Beltran, Gamboa and Burns is a deception and not seeing them on par at least presents a clear bias.
Rigo may get into the HOF but it won't be for anything he did at 130. I would be surprised if Linares gets into the hall.
Loma has a guy available to prove his spot, same age, same weight, Garcia.
Crawford has a chance to prove his spot with the younger Spence.
Inoue will continue to be “hey, do you all see what I’m doing? It’s insane”
Don't forget Usyk, or the 140 guys, or even the 115 guys. 108 fighters are also fighting each other regularly.
Oh I’ve been on Usyk since the amateurs. I love what he’s done but in P4P terms I tend to favor guys that have success in multiple weight classes. It’s not fair, but it’s how I see it. I mean, think of what Crawford would do if he was still at 135, he would murder Garcia and Loma. But that’s because he’s both really good and bigger. So to me moving up is how you show you are special, showing you don’t have to be bigger. Same reason I have Crawford over Spence P4P even though I would(with much hesitation) pick Spence H2H.
A little more time and a few more quality opponents and I have to look past the single weight class though.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I wouldn't say Linares got beat by all his "best" opponents, Loma beat him when he was a three weight "world" champion, No. 1 ranked lightweight (The Ring champion), unbeaten for half-a-dozen years and had flirted in-and-out of P4P lists for a decade.
Walter's was regarded the no.1 featherweight (The Ring), unbeaten, had sparkos over former elites and was robbed - with a draw - against a man who was "robbed" against Gamboa.
Postol and Gamboa are good fighters but what makes them better on paper than Rigo, Russell Jr, Martinez, Marriaga or Sosa? Loma has a couple of HOFamers on his record inside a dozen fights.
Nobody in their right mind would pick Linares over Garcia so take the thought he was number 1 at LW and discard it because it’s simply not true.
Exactly, Garcia was still the WBC lightweight champ, so had to be considered among the 135 pound ratings. Just like Canelo will still be considered among the 160 rankings, unless he states he is permanently moving up or doesn't fight at 160 for over a year.
It's also the reason Wlad was never lineal champ, because Vitali was still WBC champ and no would have rated Povetkin or Chagaev above Vitali.
Also I think the initial statement was that Postol and co were on par with guys on Loma's record, trying to make out that Marriaga, Sosa and Martinez are better wins than Benavidez, Horn, Indongo, Diaz, Molina, Postol, Dulorme, Beltran, Gamboa and Burns is a deception and not seeing them on par at least presents a clear bias.
Rigo may get into the HOF but it won't be for anything he did at 130. I would be surprised if Linares gets into the hall.
Loma has a guy available to prove his spot, same age, same weight, Garcia.
Crawford has a chance to prove his spot with the younger Spence.
Inoue will continue to be “hey, do you all see what I’m doing? It’s insane”
Don't forget Usyk, or the 140 guys, or even the 115 guys. 108 fighters are also fighting each other regularly.
Oh I’ve been on Usyk since the amateurs. I love what he’s done but in P4P terms I tend to favor guys that have success in multiple weight classes. It’s not fair, but it’s how I see it. I mean, think of what Crawford would do if he was still at 135, he would murder Garcia and Loma. But that’s because he’s both really good and bigger. So to me moving up is how you show you are special, showing you don’t have to be bigger. Same reason I have Crawford over Spence P4P even though I would(with much hesitation) pick Spence H2H.
A little more time and a few more quality opponents and I have to look past the single weight class though.
Not disagreeing with how you view P4P but that could go both ways. Example: what Crawford would do if he was still at 135? Could he make 135 and it not affect his ability? If Crawford had to boil down to 135 today, I'd say Garcia and Loma probably stop him.
Multiple weights don't mean as much to me, unless a guy is taking on the best as he steps up. Take Lipinets at 140 for Mikey or Martinez, Walters or Sosa at 130 for Loma. Usyk took out both Briedis and Gassiev. On opposition alone Usyk is in the debate.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I wouldn't say Linares got beat by all his "best" opponents, Loma beat him when he was a three weight "world" champion, No. 1 ranked lightweight (The Ring champion), unbeaten for half-a-dozen years and had flirted in-and-out of P4P lists for a decade.
Walter's was regarded the no.1 featherweight (The Ring), unbeaten, had sparkos over former elites and was robbed - with a draw - against a man who was "robbed" against Gamboa.
Postol and Gamboa are good fighters but what makes them better on paper than Rigo, Russell Jr, Martinez, Marriaga or Sosa? Loma has a couple of HOFamers on his record inside a dozen fights.
Nobody in their right mind would pick Linares over Garcia so take the thought he was number 1 at LW and discard it because it’s simply not true.
OK he was no.2 at lightweight and everything I said still stands. Crawford doesn't have better wins.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.
Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.
Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Loma and Usyk's records and comparisons.
What do you consider Loma's 3 best wins?
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.
Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Loma and Usyk's records and comparisons.
What do you consider Loma's 3 best wins?
You're accussing me of "bias" and "deception" for offering a blase opinion about who is best in a MYTHICAL sense? What? Since when have I ever "ignored" Loma's loss to Salido?
Mikey had ONE FIGHT at 135 against Zlaticanin, your precious WBC belt was the one stripped from Linares. Linares went unbeaten for SIX YEARS at 135 picking up the WBC, WBA and RING belt along the way.
And yet I still conceded to you guys Mikey was no.1 because YOU KNOW Mikey kills Linares. YOU KNOW who wins before fighters even meet.
"Bias, lies and deception" in a silly fantasy scenario based solely on ones personal preference!!! Laughable.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.
Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Loma and Usyk's records and comparisons.
What do you consider Loma's 3 best wins?
You're accussing me of "bias" and "deception" for offering a blase opinion about who is best in a MYTHICAL sense? What? Since when have I ever "ignored" Loma's loss to Salido?
Mikey had
ONE FIGHT at 135 against Zlaticanin, your precious WBC belt was the one stripped from Linares. Linares went
unbeaten for SIX YEARS at 135 picking up the WBC, WBA and RING belt along the way.
And yet I still conceded to you guys Mikey was no.1 because YOU KNOW Mikey kills Linares. YOU KNOW who wins before fighters even meet.
"Bias, lies and deception" in a silly fantasy scenario based solely on ones personal preference!!! Laughable.
Hold fire, comparing opposition is not mythical, P4P is. With opposition there is more to go on. I'm just trying to understand why you rate Loma's record so highly, when compared to others in that group it's all pretty even. I know your a Loma fan, so am I. But his record is far from a murderers row.
Linares was facing weak opposition over that time, after being stopped twice by guys who I don't think many would have considered top 10 going in.
Mikey may beat Linares, but that's not what I said, I said Garcia was #1.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.
Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Loma and Usyk's records and comparisons.
What do you consider Loma's 3 best wins?
You're accussing me of "bias" and "deception" for offering a blase opinion about who is best in a MYTHICAL sense? What? Since when have I ever "ignored" Loma's loss to Salido?
Mikey had
ONE FIGHT at 135 against Zlaticanin, your precious WBC belt was the one stripped from Linares. Linares went
unbeaten for SIX YEARS at 135 picking up the WBC, WBA and RING belt along the way.
And yet I still conceded to you guys Mikey was no.1 because YOU KNOW Mikey kills Linares. YOU KNOW who wins before fighters even meet.
"Bias, lies and deception" in a silly fantasy scenario based solely on ones personal preference!!! Laughable.
Hold fire, comparing opposition is not mythical, P4P is. With opposition there is more to go on. I'm just trying to understand why you rate Loma's record so highly, when compared to others in that group it's all pretty even. I know your a Loma fan, so am I. But his record is far from a murderers row.
Linares was facing weak opposition over that time, after being stopped twice by guys who I don't think many would have considered top 10 going in.
Mikey may beat Linares, but that's not what I said, I said Garcia was #1.
I don't rate Loma's record so highly I rate it superior to Crawford and Mikey's, then I factor in my own personal preference that Loma is THE best boxer in the world, the best by "my eyes," the most talented, the best single talent to watch.
All rankings are based solely on opinion. Boxing isn't like any other sport as we quite simply don't have enough data/evidence to ever definitively prove one fighter is better than another.
Why was Mikey no.1 at 135? He had ONE fight in the division and that ONE fight wasn't against the no.1 guy.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
That’s all fair enough. They (Loma and Crawford) are pretty hard to compare on the eye test really, I think both are so damn good, and kind of good at the same things but in different ways.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.
Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Loma and Usyk's records and comparisons.
What do you consider Loma's 3 best wins?
You're accussing me of "bias" and "deception" for offering a blase opinion about who is best in a MYTHICAL sense? What? Since when have I ever "ignored" Loma's loss to Salido?
Mikey had
ONE FIGHT at 135 against Zlaticanin, your precious WBC belt was the one stripped from Linares. Linares went
unbeaten for SIX YEARS at 135 picking up the WBC, WBA and RING belt along the way.
And yet I still conceded to you guys Mikey was no.1 because YOU KNOW Mikey kills Linares. YOU KNOW who wins before fighters even meet.
"Bias, lies and deception" in a silly fantasy scenario based solely on ones personal preference!!! Laughable.
Hold fire, comparing opposition is not mythical, P4P is. With opposition there is more to go on. I'm just trying to understand why you rate Loma's record so highly, when compared to others in that group it's all pretty even. I know your a Loma fan, so am I. But his record is far from a murderers row.
Linares was facing weak opposition over that time, after being stopped twice by guys who I don't think many would have considered top 10 going in.
Mikey may beat Linares, but that's not what I said, I said Garcia was #1.
I don't rate Loma's record so highly I rate it superior to Crawford and Mikey's, then I factor in my own personal preference that Loma is THE best boxer in the world, the best by "my eyes," the most talented, the best single talent to watch.
All rankings are based solely on opinion. Boxing isn't like any other sport as we quite simply don't have enough data/evidence to ever definitively prove one fighter is better than another.
Why was Mikey no.1 at 135? He had ONE fight in the division and that ONE fight wasn't against the no.1 guy.
Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree on it being superior. The stuff about best boxer and eye test is not in regards to opposition.
How many fights has Loma had at 135? And what #1 guy did Linares beat? Mikey sparked Zlaticanin, who many considered #2 at the time. For me that put Mikey ahead of Linares who had already suffered loses to Thompson and DeMarco and also looked vulnerable against Mitchell.
Loma's record is not even superior to Usyk or Inoue's in my opinion. You could even add Wangek, GGG and Canelo based on the opposition they have fought.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.
Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Loma and Usyk's records and comparisons.
What do you consider Loma's 3 best wins?
You're accussing me of "bias" and "deception" for offering a blase opinion about who is best in a MYTHICAL sense? What? Since when have I ever "ignored" Loma's loss to Salido?
Mikey had
ONE FIGHT at 135 against Zlaticanin, your precious WBC belt was the one stripped from Linares. Linares went
unbeaten for SIX YEARS at 135 picking up the WBC, WBA and RING belt along the way.
And yet I still conceded to you guys Mikey was no.1 because YOU KNOW Mikey kills Linares. YOU KNOW who wins before fighters even meet.
"Bias, lies and deception" in a silly fantasy scenario based solely on ones personal preference!!! Laughable.
Hold fire, comparing opposition is not mythical, P4P is. With opposition there is more to go on. I'm just trying to understand why you rate Loma's record so highly, when compared to others in that group it's all pretty even. I know your a Loma fan, so am I. But his record is far from a murderers row.
Linares was facing weak opposition over that time, after being stopped twice by guys who I don't think many would have considered top 10 going in.
Mikey may beat Linares, but that's not what I said, I said Garcia was #1.
I don't rate Loma's record so highly I rate it superior to Crawford and Mikey's, then I factor in my own personal preference that Loma is THE best boxer in the world, the best by "my eyes," the most talented, the best single talent to watch.
All rankings are based solely on opinion. Boxing isn't like any other sport as we quite simply don't have enough data/evidence to ever definitively prove one fighter is better than another.
Why was Mikey no.1 at 135? He had ONE fight in the division and that ONE fight wasn't against the no.1 guy.
Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree on it being superior. The stuff about best boxer and eye test is not in regards to opposition.
How many fights has Loma had at 135? And what #1 guy did Linares beat? Mikey sparked Zlaticanin, who many considered #2 at the time. For me that put Mikey ahead of Linares who had already suffered loses to Thompson and DeMarco and also looked vulnerable against Mitchell.
Loma's record is not even superior to Usyk or Inoue's in my opinion. You could even add Wangek, GGG and Canelo based on the opposition they have fought.
There's no correct way to do P4P.
Who was considered no.1 ahead of Zlaticanin?
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.
Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Loma and Usyk's records and comparisons.
What do you consider Loma's 3 best wins?
You're accussing me of "bias" and "deception" for offering a blase opinion about who is best in a MYTHICAL sense? What? Since when have I ever "ignored" Loma's loss to Salido?
Mikey had
ONE FIGHT at 135 against Zlaticanin, your precious WBC belt was the one stripped from Linares. Linares went
unbeaten for SIX YEARS at 135 picking up the WBC, WBA and RING belt along the way.
And yet I still conceded to you guys Mikey was no.1 because YOU KNOW Mikey kills Linares. YOU KNOW who wins before fighters even meet.
"Bias, lies and deception" in a silly fantasy scenario based solely on ones personal preference!!! Laughable.
Hold fire, comparing opposition is not mythical, P4P is. With opposition there is more to go on. I'm just trying to understand why you rate Loma's record so highly, when compared to others in that group it's all pretty even. I know your a Loma fan, so am I. But his record is far from a murderers row.
Linares was facing weak opposition over that time, after being stopped twice by guys who I don't think many would have considered top 10 going in.
Mikey may beat Linares, but that's not what I said, I said Garcia was #1.
I don't rate Loma's record so highly I rate it superior to Crawford and Mikey's, then I factor in my own personal preference that Loma is THE best boxer in the world, the best by "my eyes," the most talented, the best single talent to watch.
All rankings are based solely on opinion. Boxing isn't like any other sport as we quite simply don't have enough data/evidence to ever definitively prove one fighter is better than another.
Why was Mikey no.1 at 135? He had ONE fight in the division and that ONE fight wasn't against the no.1 guy.
Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree on it being superior. The stuff about best boxer and eye test is not in regards to opposition.
How many fights has Loma had at 135? And what #1 guy did Linares beat? Mikey sparked Zlaticanin, who many considered #2 at the time. For me that put Mikey ahead of Linares who had already suffered loses to Thompson and DeMarco and also looked vulnerable against Mitchell.
Loma's record is not even superior to Usyk or Inoue's in my opinion. You could even add Wangek, GGG and Canelo based on the opposition they have fought.
There's no correct way to do P4P.
Who was considered no.1 ahead of Zlaticanin?
I had Linares at #1 but with Linares' inactivity up to the Crolla fight I guess some may have had Zlaticanin at the top.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Right, so you ranked Linares no.1 along with the Ring and every other major publication. However, you then ranked Garcia no.1 for beating Zlat, you believe that sole win trumps everything Linares did at lightweight?
These were the credentials of my number one lightweight - WBC, WBA, Ring champion and no.1 lightweight who was on a 13 fight unbeaten streak going into the Loma fight.
These were the credentials of your no.1 lightweight - picked up a WBC title, which had been stripped from the no.1 Linares, against the not number one in Zlaticacin.
And I never once said you can't claim Garcia as the best lightweight even though Linares CLEARLY has the strongest resume at 135. Why? Because it's all just OPINIONS!!! Just like P4P. I could make a case for half-a-dozen fighters without giving it a second thought.
I'm judging fighters solely by their exploits in the ring yet being accused of "bias" and "lies" and "deception!!!"
It's called consistency lads.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Right, so you ranked Linares no.1 along with the Ring and every other major publication. However, you then ranked Garcia no.1 for beating Zlat, you believe that sole win trumps everything Linares did at lightweight?
These were the credentials of my number one lightweight - WBC, WBA, Ring champion and no.1 lightweight who was on a 13 fight unbeaten streak going into the Loma fight.
These were the credentials of your no.1 lightweight - picked up a WBC title, which had been stripped from the no.1 Linares, against the not number one in Zlaticacin.
And I never once said you can't claim Garcia as the best lightweight even though Linares CLEARLY has the strongest resume at 135. Why? Because it's all just OPINIONS!!! Just like P4P. I could make a case for half-a-dozen fighters without giving it a second thought.
I'm judging fighters solely by their exploits in the ring yet being accused of "bias" and "lies" and "deception!!!"
It's called consistency lads.
Like I said Linares was inactive, and Garcia took out the #2 guy. What was the highest rated guy Linares beat in that time? Linares was only #1 by default, guys like Figueroa, Abril and Broner had moved on. Who did Linares win his WBC title from? And again the Ring title was crowned on a #1 vs #3.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Right, so you ranked Linares no.1 along with the Ring and every other major publication. However, you then ranked Garcia no.1 for beating Zlat, you believe that sole win trumps everything Linares did at lightweight?
These were the credentials of my number one lightweight - WBC, WBA, Ring champion and no.1 lightweight who was on a 13 fight unbeaten streak going into the Loma fight.
These were the credentials of your no.1 lightweight - picked up a WBC title, which had been stripped from the no.1 Linares, against the not number one in Zlaticacin.
And I never once said you can't claim Garcia as the best lightweight even though Linares CLEARLY has the strongest resume at 135. Why? Because it's all just OPINIONS!!! Just like P4P. I could make a case for half-a-dozen fighters without giving it a second thought.
I'm judging fighters solely by their exploits in the ring yet being accused of "bias" and "lies" and "deception!!!"
It's called consistency lads.
Like I said Linares was inactive, and Garcia took out the #2 guy. What was the highest rated guy Linares beat in that time? Linares was only #1 by default, guys like Figueroa, Abril and Broner had moved on. Who did Linares win his WBC title from? And again the Ring title was crowned on a #1 vs #3.
Yeah like I said i'm dealing with what happened in the ring not what did not.
Linares was no.1 by default? Linares was inactive? Linares never beat the no.1? Linares WBC and Ring belts aren't kosher?
Yet you rated him no.1 :)
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Right, so you ranked Linares no.1 along with the Ring and every other major publication. However, you then ranked Garcia no.1 for beating Zlat, you believe that sole win trumps everything Linares did at lightweight?
These were the credentials of my number one lightweight - WBC, WBA, Ring champion and no.1 lightweight who was on a 13 fight unbeaten streak going into the Loma fight.
These were the credentials of your no.1 lightweight - picked up a WBC title, which had been stripped from the no.1 Linares, against the not number one in Zlaticacin.
And I never once said you can't claim Garcia as the best lightweight even though Linares CLEARLY has the strongest resume at 135. Why? Because it's all just OPINIONS!!! Just like P4P. I could make a case for half-a-dozen fighters without giving it a second thought.
I'm judging fighters solely by their exploits in the ring yet being accused of "bias" and "lies" and "deception!!!"
It's called consistency lads.
Like I said Linares was inactive, and Garcia took out the #2 guy. What was the highest rated guy Linares beat in that time? Linares was only #1 by default, guys like Figueroa, Abril and Broner had moved on. Who did Linares win his WBC title from? And again the Ring title was crowned on a #1 vs #3.
Yeah like I said i'm dealing with what happened in the ring not what did not.
Linares was no.1 by default? Linares was inactive? Linares never beat the no.1? Linares WBC and Ring belts aren't kosher?
Yet you rated him no.1 :)
Yea until Mikey entered the division with a ko of the #2 guy.
Just because I had Linares at 1 doesn't mean he was the consensus or undisputed #1 who had beat everyone else. Its like say 122 at the moment, I'd have Dogboe at 1 but Vargas or Roman could just as easily be there. If Rigo can't back and ko'd the #2 in 2 rounds, most would put him at #1.
Or say Tyson Fury for example ko'd Wilder in his comeback fight to the division, it would be reasonable for people to rate him #1.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.
To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.
To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.
I think it’s about the gap in the competition. I don’t think there’s much of a gap, therefore, Crawford takes the spot over Loma. If I thought that Loma’s Competition was that much better than Crawford’s then I would put Loma over him. It’s just hard to believe that people think that Loma’s resume is head and shoulders above Crawford’s.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.
To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.
I think it’s about the gap in the competition. I don’t think there’s much of a gap, therefore, Crawford takes the spot over Loma. If I thought that Loma’s Competition was that much better than Crawford’s then I would put Loma over him. It’s just hard to believe that people think that Loma’s resume is head and shoulders above Crawford’s.
Hard for me to believe people think there isn’t a gap. Guess that is why it is subjective. We will have o agree to disagree.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.
To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.
I think the point that was originally brought up was that most of these guys records are on par and missing an elite win.
I don't think I said those wins were better, just that they were on par with what Loma has done.
You can do the same for Loma's record, I have stated that I feel Russell Jr is Loma's best win, as have others. But what had he done when Loma fought him? His record was padded to the max. Fenster likes to use HOF, but Linares is a push, and if Rigo ever gets in it won't be for anything he did at 130, where Loma fought him. I would consider the Walters and Postol wins to be very similar.
Crawford has been recognized as lineal champ in 2 divisions, now you can sh-t on the divisions all you like, but if it was so easy to do, why don't we have more fighters recognized as lineal champs?
I don't even have Crawford or Loma at #1 P4P, the point I'm trying to make is that Loma's record is far from superior over the likes of Usyk, Inoue, Mikey, Crawford, Wangek, Canelo and GGG, based on the opposition they have faced. And lets remember that Loma, whatever the circumstances involving the fight, the fact remains Loma lost to Salido.
I asked for what people considered Loma's 3 best wins, even top 5, so we can do a proper comparison.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.
To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.
I think the point that was originally brought up was that most of these guys records are on par and missing an elite win.
I don't think I said those wins were better, just that they were on par with what Loma has done.
You can do the same for Loma's record, I have stated that I feel Russell Jr is Loma's best win, as have others. But what had he done when Loma fought him? His record was padded to the max. Fenster likes to use HOF, but Linares is a push, and if Rigo ever gets in it won't be for anything he did at 130, where Loma fought him. I would consider the Walters and Postol wins to be very similar.
Crawford has been recognized as lineal champ in 2 divisions, now you can sh-t on the divisions all you like, but if it was so easy to do, why don't we have more fighters recognized as lineal champs?
I don't even have Crawford or Loma at #1 P4P, the point I'm trying to make is that Loma's record is far from superior over the likes of Usyk, Inoue, Mikey, Crawford, Wangek, Canelo and GGG, based on the opposition they have faced. And lets remember that Loma, whatever the circumstances involving the fight, the fact remains Loma lost to Salido.
I asked for what people considered Loma's 3 best wins, even top 5, so we can do a proper comparison.
Lomas top wins (in my opinion) are: 1. Gary Russel jr., 2. Linares, 3. Nicholas Walters, 4. Rigondeaux, and 5. Roman Martinez. I don’t see Crawford’s big wins on par with those guys and Crawford has almost 3 times as many fights. I like to hear the different point of view (when articulated logically like you do), so don’t want to cut this short, but will say we are splitting hairs to a degree since I think we both agree they are p4p guys. All subjective and no matter what, not much separating them.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
All this talk ends if these guys just fight the best guys near them.
Loma needs Mikey
Crawford needs Spence
Until then it’s just talk, and Inoue may be past them by then anyway.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Well there's certainly no shame in picking either Crawford or Lomachenko for the top p4p spot. Articles found online seem to be divided as well. I myself feel Crawford has the superior accolades, longer career, and can hang just fine on quality of opponents. We can all pick holes in the top opponents of the other guy. My personal picks for top Lomachenko opponents, in order of quality, would be: 1. Walters, 2. Linares, 3. Russell Jr., a bit of a gap there... then, 4. Rigondeaux, 5. Martinez. I hate to say it, but Martinez was a rather weak champion. Brave... fun to watch... but weak. Mikey Garcia had already destroyed him earlier. Rigondeaux was so way out of his league in size it wasn't even funny. What's funny is how Loma fans will grasp onto Rigo like it was Leonard-Hearns all over again. The other three I rate as great wins. Crawford's big wins I won't put in order, but suffice it to say I'd include Postol, Benavidez, Gamboa, and Dulorme in there. I'm sure Loma fans would poke holes in those too. Like I said, there's no shame in picking either, since that's what boxing pundits are doing.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.
To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.
I think the point that was originally brought up was that most of these guys records are on par and missing an elite win.
I don't think I said those wins were better, just that they were on par with what Loma has done.
You can do the same for Loma's record, I have stated that I feel Russell Jr is Loma's best win, as have others. But what had he done when Loma fought him? His record was padded to the max. Fenster likes to use HOF, but Linares is a push, and if Rigo ever gets in it won't be for anything he did at 130, where Loma fought him. I would consider the Walters and Postol wins to be very similar.
Crawford has been recognized as lineal champ in 2 divisions, now you can sh-t on the divisions all you like, but if it was so easy to do, why don't we have more fighters recognized as lineal champs?
I don't even have Crawford or Loma at #1 P4P, the point I'm trying to make is that Loma's record is far from superior over the likes of Usyk, Inoue, Mikey, Crawford, Wangek, Canelo and GGG, based on the opposition they have faced. And lets remember that Loma, whatever the circumstances involving the fight, the fact remains Loma lost to Salido.
I asked for what people considered Loma's 3 best wins, even top 5, so we can do a proper comparison.
Lomas top wins (in my opinion) are: 1. Gary Russel jr., 2. Linares, 3. Nicholas Walters, 4. Rigondeaux, and 5. Roman Martinez. I don’t see Crawford’s big wins on par with those guys and Crawford has almost 3 times as many fights. I like to hear the different point of view (when articulated logically like you do), so don’t want to cut this short, but will say we are splitting hairs to a degree since I think we both agree they are p4p guys. All subjective and no matter what, not much separating them.
I'm with you, they are all elite guys, I'm just arguing that Loma's record is far from superior. It's very good but not outstanding. Loma was also had a very long am career, which is why I find it hard that folks feel his record outshines the likes of say Usyk or Inoue.
Like I said I don't have Crawford or Loma at #1 but I feel these are Crawfords best wins: 1. Postol, 2. Indongo, 3. Gamboa 4. Beltran, 5. Diaz. Maybe a Crawford fan or someone who rates him #1 P4P will have a different 5. But let me explain these wins and I'll try to compare them to Lomas:
I have Postol at 1 because he beat the recognized guy at 140 when they fought, it was also a #1 vs #2 fight for the lineal championship. Postol's only other 'official' loss is to Taylor who many currently consider either #1 or #2 at 140. This win is at least on par with Linares for me.
Indongo was a unified titleholder, who's only other loss has come against Prograis, who I feel is recognized as #1 at 140 currently. Indongo defeated Burns and Troyanovsky. Troyanovsky arguably just beat Relikh. This win is at least on par with Rigondeaux, I consider the Rigo win, similar to Mayweathers win over Marquez, a great fighter but far from his best weight and also inactive. It also on par with Martinez.
Gamboa could possibly be #2. He was undefeated, but as you say, moving up and had also been inactive. I think the Walters/ Martinez wins and Gamboa could be considered similar.
I have Beltran in as I feel he was robbed against Burns. Crawford beat them both. The Burns win gave Crawford the lineal title, but it should have really been Beltran. Again, I don't see much difference between this win and Walters, Rigo and Martinez. Walters and Rigo both had to move up, at least Crawford fought Beltran at 135. Beltran had 6 losses coming in, but the Burns fight was stolen from him, the Bogere could have also gone either way. He also had wins over Lundy and Usmanee.
I have Diaz as 5. He is a former gold medalist and had arguably beaten Lamont at 147, as well as highly regarded Vasquez. I would consider this fight on par with Walters.
So for me personally there is not a lot between both of there best wins. There are also other guys on Crawford's record that are on par, if not better than Walters and a 2 weight smaller Rigo.
Someone who is a fan of Crawford or feels he's currently #1 can probably do a better job at this for Crawford, this is just my opinion. If you want me to do guys like Usyk and Inoue to show that Loma's record is not superior I'd be happy to.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Well there's certainly no shame in picking either Crawford or Lomachenko for the top p4p spot. Articles found online seem to be divided as well. I myself feel Crawford has the superior accolades, longer career, and can hang just fine on quality of opponents. We can all pick holes in the top opponents of the other guy. My personal picks for top Lomachenko opponents, in order of quality, would be: 1. Walters, 2. Linares, 3. Russell Jr., a bit of a gap there... then, 4. Rigondeaux, 5. Martinez. I hate to say it, but Martinez was a rather weak champion. Brave... fun to watch... but weak. Mikey Garcia had already destroyed him earlier. Rigondeaux was so way out of his league in size it wasn't even funny. What's funny is how Loma fans will grasp onto Rigo like it was Leonard-Hearns all over again. The other three I rate as great wins. Crawford's big wins I won't put in order, but suffice it to say I'd include Postol, Benavidez, Gamboa, and Dulorme in there. I'm sure Loma fans would poke holes in those too. Like I said, there's no shame in picking either, since that's what boxing pundits are doing.
Good post Tito.
Personally I feel Loma's best 3 are Russell Jr, Linares, and maybe Walters.
Put that alongside:
Briedis, Gassiev, Glowacki
Or
Narvaez, Taguchi, Payano
And there's not really a lot that's so superior.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Well there's certainly no shame in picking either Crawford or Lomachenko for the top p4p spot. Articles found online seem to be divided as well. I myself feel Crawford has the superior accolades, longer career, and can hang just fine on quality of opponents. We can all pick holes in the top opponents of the other guy. My personal picks for top Lomachenko opponents, in order of quality, would be: 1. Walters, 2. Linares, 3. Russell Jr., a bit of a gap there... then, 4. Rigondeaux, 5. Martinez. I hate to say it, but Martinez was a rather weak champion. Brave... fun to watch... but weak. Mikey Garcia had already destroyed him earlier. Rigondeaux was so way out of his league in size it wasn't even funny. What's funny is how Loma fans will grasp onto Rigo like it was Leonard-Hearns all over again. The other three I rate as great wins. Crawford's big wins I won't put in order, but suffice it to say I'd include Postol, Benavidez, Gamboa, and Dulorme in there. I'm sure Loma fans would poke holes in those too. Like I said, there's no shame in picking either, since that's what boxing pundits are doing.
Good post Tito.
Personally I feel Loma's best 3 are Russell Jr, Linares, and maybe Walters.
Put that alongside:
Briedis, Gassiev, Glowacki
Or
Narvaez, Taguchi, Payano
And there's not really a lot that's so superior.
For me there are very little differences that would have made huge differences. If Loma had taken the Berchelt fight before going to 135 it would have made a huge difference for me.(accomplishment as the marker) Or had Tank been willing (talent as the marker). I would have Loma beating either but they didn’t happen one not for Loma’s choosing. Just to have him show he is the best in a division rather than just look the best in a division.
Crawford actually showed he was the best at 140, no debate, no opinion. Undisputed. That doesn’t put Crawford above Loma, it’s just a feather in his cap. I want to see Loma match that accomplishment. It’s right there for him, can be done by early next year. Go get it, prove it.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
@Alpha, circling back on the comment of Usyk having the better competition when compared to Loma. He has beaten the best of his division, for sure (and had some good, tough fights along the way), but I feel like cruiserweights have historically been a less talented division/group. This may be because I became a fan in the 80s and after Evander left there wasn’t much talent or love for the cruisers and I’m biased. I just always felt, even when I competed, that the comp around the smaller to middle weights were much tougher since the talent pool was so kick larger. I recognize that this may just be my personal bias, but interested in other people’s perspectives.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
@
Alpha, circling back on the comment of Usyk having the better competition when compared to Loma. He has beaten the best of his division, for sure (and had some good, tough fights along the way), but I feel like cruiserweights have historically been a less talented division/group. This may be because I became a fan in the 80s and after Evander left there wasn’t much talent or love for the cruisers and I’m biased. I just always felt, even when I competed, that the comp around the smaller to middle weights were much tougher since the talent pool was so kick larger. I recognize that this may just be my personal bias, but interested in other people’s perspectives.
I didn’t become a fan of breathing until the late 80s, so I probably can’t offer you a lot of insight, but I have thought that cruisers have often been underrated in recent years. There is nothing close to the weight difference between either side of it. You’re talking a lot on either side. It’s also a pretty easy case to argue that guys in general are less coordinated/talented the bigger they are. I feel like a lot of very good fighters fall victim to just being the wrong size to compete in a more glamorous division, and that a lot of extremely good fighters only moved up to HW for the financial benefit and notoriety. Holyfield’s as good an example as any. He was almost certainly juiced to the gills his whole career at HW, and his average weight was what, 215?
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Haha fan of breathing 😂 F-ckin auto correct aye?
Size has never really mattered to me, I prefer to go of opposition and what I see in front of me.
Remember the current cruisers are about the same size roughly as some of our favourite heavies, Big George never really got much over 220 until after his comeback. Ali was his best around 210. Today's cruisers rehydrate to at least that.
I'm pretty sure watching Usyk we can all agree that he is a fantastic fighter. It's sort of the same as Ricardo Lopez (not comparing him to Usyk) just that his form was punch perfect and in that only many rate him as a great, the opposition is what let's him down.
Just a few of my thoughts on it.
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
I thought it was a folksy way of saying he was born in the late 80s haha
-
Re: Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!
Yea man, you finally got something right!
