~ A Message to Referee Marlon B. Wright ~ (Ref. for Andrade-Bute)

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Sone of you guys are fucken ridiculous...

If you can't see that the ref. clearly "helped" Bute throughout the whole fight then you fucken blind and or just don't cope things.

I'll counter the arguements with something simple.


Would it have been Andrade who was on queer street, falling allover the place and being held up by the ropes and taking that HUGE shot like that from Bute the fight would have been waived off and if you can't agree with that then. FUCK YOU TOO.

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Wow talk about being hostile just for people having different opinions, first off how in the hell did the ref help Lucian Bute early on ? yes he let Lucian Bute hold a bit too much, but he wasn't clinching that much and Librado Andrade was also allowed to get away with some elbows and etc on the inside.

So it works both ways secondly yes the ref warning Librado Andrade about holding was ridiculous. But that was only twice in the fight wasn't it ? thirdly i'll counter that argument by saying do you think if Julio Cesar Chavez would of been in the same situation as Meldrick Taylor, do you think the ref would of stopped the fight ?

You always defend Richard Steele in the Taylor vs Chavez fight, by saying that the ref's decision is final right ? even though Richard Steele was clearly counting fast and didn't even give Meldrick Taylor time to respond, Lucian Bute went down he got up at the count of 8. The ref see Librado Andrade slightly walking out of the neutral corner, because maybe he thought he was going to the center of the ring.

So Librado Andrade has to take some blame for that aswell, but whatever the reason its all irrelvant because the time in the round was up. All that mattered at that time was the ref's decision whether or not to let the fight continue. Lucian Bute looked at his corner twice so he was still aware, and he responded to the ref, infact i don't think any rules were broken at all if you look at the IBF rules.

I also think it would of been even more of a traversity, if Librado Andrade would of been awarded the fight when there was no time left in the round.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Sone of you guys are fucken ridiculous...

If you can't see that the ref. clearly "helped" Bute throughout the whole fight then you fucken blind and or just don't cope things.

I'll counter the arguements with something simple.


Would it have been Andrade who was on queer street, falling allover the place and being held up by the ropes and taking that HUGE shot like that from Bute the fight would have been waived off and if you can't agree with that then. FUCK YOU TOO.

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Wow talk about being hostile just for people having different opinions, first off how in the hell did the ref help Lucian Bute early on ? yes he let Lucian Bute hold a bit too much, but he wasn't clinching that much and Librado Andrade was also allowed to get away with some elbows and etc on the inside.

So it works both ways secondly yes the ref warning Librado Andrade about holding was ridiculous. But that was only twice in the fight wasn't it ? thirdly i'll counter that argument by saying do you think if Julio Cesar Chavez would of been in the same situation as Meldrick Taylor, do you think the ref would of stopped the fight ?

You always defend Richard Steele in the Taylor vs Chavez fight, by saying that the ref's decision is final right ? even though Richard Steele was clearly counting fast and didn't even give Meldrick Taylor time to respond, Lucian Bute went down he got up at the count of 8. The ref see Librado Andrade slightly walking out of the neutral corner, because maybe he thought he was going to the center of the ring.

So Librado Andrade has to take some blame for that aswell, but whatever the reason its all irrelvant because the time in the round was up. All that mattered at that time was the ref's decision whether or not to let the fight continue. Lucian Bute looked at his corner twice so he was still aware, and he responded to the ref, infact i don't think any rules were broken at all if you look at the IBF rules.

I also think it would of been even more of a traversity, if Librado Andrade would of been awarded the fight when there was no time left in the round.

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One thing I would like to point out. Why, and how, did the ref see Andrade supposedly move from the corner? When Bute went down, he instructed Andrade to go to the opposite corner, which Andrade did, Wright started his count with his back to Andrade, so why in the middle of his count would he check on Andrade? How many refs do you see do that in the middle of their count? Does he have eyes in the back of his head that we don't know about, or maybe someone from Bute's corner was saying something to him? :dontknow:

Andrade was no where near the knock down, in fact he was far enough away that he wasn't visible from the panned out shot with the camera. So he was maybe 3 feet from the corner? So what, the fighters are not required to be leaning up against the posts, no fighter does that. So why was it such a big deal for this fight? :dontknow:

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Originally Posted by Diane

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Sone of you guys are fucken ridiculous...

If you can't see that the ref. clearly "helped" Bute throughout the whole fight then you fucken blind and or just don't cope things.

I'll counter the arguements with something simple.


Would it have been Andrade who was on queer street, falling allover the place and being held up by the ropes and taking that HUGE shot like that from Bute the fight would have been waived off and if you can't agree with that then. FUCK YOU TOO.

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Wow talk about being hostile just for people having different opinions, first off how in the hell did the ref help Lucian Bute early on ? yes he let Lucian Bute hold a bit too much, but he wasn't clinching that much and Librado Andrade was also allowed to get away with some elbows and etc on the inside.

So it works both ways secondly yes the ref warning Librado Andrade about holding was ridiculous. But that was only twice in the fight wasn't it ? thirdly i'll counter that argument by saying do you think if Julio Cesar Chavez would of been in the same situation as Meldrick Taylor, do you think the ref would of stopped the fight ?

You always defend Richard Steele in the Taylor vs Chavez fight, by saying that the ref's decision is final right ? even though Richard Steele was clearly counting fast and didn't even give Meldrick Taylor time to respond, Lucian Bute went down he got up at the count of 8. The ref see Librado Andrade slightly walking out of the neutral corner, because maybe he thought he was going to the center of the ring.

So Librado Andrade has to take some blame for that aswell, but whatever the reason its all irrelvant because the time in the round was up. All that mattered at that time was the ref's decision whether or not to let the fight continue. Lucian Bute looked at his corner twice so he was still aware, and he responded to the ref, infact i don't think any rules were broken at all if you look at the IBF rules.

I also think it would of been even more of a traversity, if Librado Andrade would of been awarded the fight when there was no time left in the round.

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One thing I would like to point out. Why, and how, did the ref see Andrade supposedly move from the corner? When Bute went down, he instructed Andrade to go to the opposite corner, which Andrade did, Wright started his count with his back to Andrade, so why in the middle of his count would he check on Andrade? How many refs do you see do that in the middle of their count? Does he have eyes in the back of his head that we don't know about, or maybe someone from Bute's corner was saying something to him? :dontknow:

Andrade was no where near the knock down, in fact he was far enough away that he wasn't visible from the panned out shot with the camera. So he was maybe 3 feet from the corner? So what, the fighters are not required to be leaning up against the posts, no fighter does that. So why was it such a big deal for this fight? :dontknow:

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This might explain it a bit better its the IBF rules.

4. When a contestant has been knocked down, the referee will order the standing contestant to the farthest neutral corner and begin the count. If the contestant standing leaves the corner before the count has been completed, the referee shall discontinue the count and order the standing contestant back into the corner. The count will not resume until the standing contestant has returned to the neutral corner.

Im not saying what the ref done is right Diane but with hindsight its irrelvant if you think about it, because the time in the round was over so Librado Andrade couldn't have got another chance it was impossible.

That's all well and good, if the fighter is moving toward the center of the ring, but he was standing in the vincinity of the corner, just as all fighters do. The ref clearly used that rule to his advantage to explain his incompetence.

And it's not irrelevent, because Wright failed to check Bute properly to see if he was able to continue. Even though the round was over, after giving the count, Wright was supposed to make Bute take a few steps forward, to see if Bute would be able to continue to fight, but he did not do that. Wright let the ropes continue to hold Bute up. If Bute would have step forward, it would have been obvious to everyone that he would not have been able to continue, thus it should have gone as a TKO.

The ropes saved Bute from going outside of the ring at least 2 times prior to the knock down, and he stopped defending himself with 35 seconds left! He was done!

I like Bute, don't get me wrong, and he was clearly winning the fight until the 12th round, but I'm not going to be blind to what occurred, just because I like a fighter.

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Originally Posted by Diane

And it's not irrelevent, because Wright failed to check Bute properly to see if he was able to continue. Even though the round was over, after giving the count, Wright was supposed to make Bute take a few steps forward, to see if Bute would be able to continue to fight, but he did not do that. Wright let the ropes continue to hold Bute up. If Bute would have step forward, it would have been obvious to everyone that he would not have been able to continue, thus it should have gone as a TKO.

The ropes saved Bute from going outside of the ring at least 2 times prior to the knock down, and he stopped defending himself with 35 seconds left! He was done!

I like Bute, don't get me wrong, and he was clearly winning the fight until the 12th round, but I'm not going to be blind to what occurred, just because I like a fighter.

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Good points Diane i'll reply to this tomorrow tired right now can't think.

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Originally Posted by Diane

And it's not irrelevent, because Wright failed to check Bute properly to see if he was able to continue. Even though the round was over, after giving the count, Wright was supposed to make Bute take a few steps forward, to see if Bute would be able to continue to fight, but he did not do that. Wright let the ropes continue to hold Bute up. If Bute would have step forward, it would have been obvious to everyone that he would not have been able to continue, thus it should have gone as a TKO.

The ropes saved Bute from going outside of the ring at least 2 times prior to the knock down, and he stopped defending himself with 35 seconds left! He was done!

I like Bute, don't get me wrong, and he was clearly winning the fight until the 12th round, but I'm not going to be blind to what occurred, just because I like a fighter.

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I agree too with your assessmnet. I too am a bute fan, but the ref pissed me off so much, throughout the fight, i began to cheer for andrade to knock him out. I like andrade too but i was neutral going into this fight. I expected bute to win because of his boxing skill, but my heart was with andrade also because he epitomizes will over skill.

Any I.T s around...pretty sure I am hacked to Shit,virus.Getting auto Boots after logging on not able to Post."Invalid Account" WTF, realize this is main page.sorry. Someones f!!!!G around hardcore,Not cool !!!Any assistance greatly Appreciated. Am I banned or

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Any I.T s around...pretty sure I am hacked to Shit,virus.Getting auto Boots after logging on not able to Post."Invalid Account" WTF, realize this is main page.sorry. Someones f!!!!G around hardcore,Not cool !!!Any assistance greatly Appreciated. Am I banned or

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I recognise a fellow mescaline eater when I see one.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

OK, 1st things 1st.

FUCK YOU Marlon B. Wright... You piece of shit.

Andrade WAS in his corner, of course he wasn't glued to the fucken post but which fighter is? Most fighters hang out there not literally in the fucken corner with the back on the post. He was in the neutral corner and VIDEO proves that.

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Las reglas son reglas, mi amigo. ;D

One thing I would like to point out. Why, and how, did the ref see Andrade supposedly move from the corner? When Bute went down, he instructed Andrade to go to the opposite corner, which Andrade did, Wright started his count with his back to Andrade, so why in the middle of his count would he check on Andrade? -- DIANE

That's some CSI thinking right there!

Great point!

When I saw the fight, I saw two distinct patterns emerge that enraged me.

1: The ref pampered Bute the entire fight. He kept Bute out of harms way by stopping the action to speak/warn Andrade whenever he seemed to be getting to Bute.

2: The Ref seemed to do everything within his power at the end to save Bute's win. It was blatant and obvious to me. It stunk to high heaven.

I agree with ICB's Taylor-Chavez fight comparison, this was the same thing. Only this time the ref didnt fuck Bute out of his win, he got up and the fight was over.

This is the Kessler fight, but you have to love the comments, they begin after the knock down, pretty funny and true :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rugY...-pg-4-a-4.html

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Originally Posted by Diane

And it's not irrelevent, because Wright failed to check Bute properly to see if he was able to continue. Even though the round was over, after giving the count, Wright was supposed to make Bute take a few steps forward, to see if Bute would be able to continue to fight, but he did not do that. Wright let the ropes continue to hold Bute up. If Bute would have step forward, it would have been obvious to everyone that he would not have been able to continue, thus it should have gone as a TKO.

The ropes saved Bute from going outside of the ring at least 2 times prior to the knock down, and he stopped defending himself with 35 seconds left! He was done!

I like Bute, don't get me wrong, and he was clearly winning the fight until the 12th round, but I'm not going to be blind to what occurred, just because I like a fighter.

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That was definitely a glaring omission, Wright should have definitely made him do that. I still don't think it was a horrible call not to stop it before Bute went down (although like I've said its not like it would have been unjustified to do so, I just think that late in the fight he should at least be put down before you stop it or be completely out on his feet) but even though I think it would have been harsh to stop it after he got up and the time ran out still there's no saving a fighter by the bell and he should have made him walk forward and checked him more carefully.

Maybe the outrage seems a bit excessive to me because I didn't see the whole fight and apparently Wright was coddlinig Bute the whole way. Just as far as the end goes, it was bad but I've definitely seen worse.

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Originally Posted by ICB

first off how in the hell did the ref help Lucian Bute early on ? yes he let Lucian Bute hold a bit too much, but he wasn't clinching that much

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Somehow I'm dumbfounded by this...
I read this about 35 times and I just couldn't get past it.
Looks like you just went in circles there... :hypnotized:

Either I'm an idiot or your trying to sneak one past me, cause everytime I read that I found myself scratching my head and starting over with "First off..."

At one point in the 35 readings I found myself agreeing with you just cause I was confused with the 1st part of it...

Anyone else having this problem or Am I the only one?

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

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Originally Posted by ICB

first off how in the hell did the ref help Lucian Bute early on ? yes he let Lucian Bute hold a bit too much, but he wasn't clinching that much

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Somehow I'm dumbfounded by this...
I read this about 35 times and I just couldn't get past it.
Looks like you just went in circles there... :hypnotized:

Either I'm an idiot or your trying to sneak one past me, cause everytime I read that I found myself scratching my head and starting over with "First off..."

At one point in the 35 readings I found myself agreeing with you just cause I was confused with the 1st part of it...

Anyone else having this problem or Am I the only one?

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:lolhaha:

No, you're not the only one!!!

I was confused when I read it, but I let it go, because I had other things I wanted to address first. ;D

I'm glad you said something though. ;)

CMM, have you calmed down now mate

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Originally Posted by Plopeater

CMM, have you calmed down now mate

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No not really...
I don't think I will let this one go that easy.

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

One thing I would like to point out. Why, and how, did the ref see Andrade supposedly move from the corner? When Bute went down, he instructed Andrade to go to the opposite corner, which Andrade did, Wright started his count with his back to Andrade, so why in the middle of his count would he check on Andrade? -- DIANE

That's some CSI thinking right there!

Great point!

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The ref took one look at bute's eyes and thought 'holy shit. i've got to do something to stall this, he's out on his feet. I know i'll look around and give andrade shit for not being 1 inch from the neutral turnbuckle. That's it."

Well just to add a little more to the story, and this has nothing to do with the ref, but I didn't hear anything about this during the fight. Although I might have missed it, since I was talking to Danny at the same time. Was anything mentioned about the issue with the missing gloves?

I guess after Bute's team selected the gloves, and they were signed off on, they came back an hour later saying that they changed their mind. Andrade's team wouldn't agree with the switch, and then hmmmm, Bute's gloves mysteriously go missing.


Ohh Canada - Pound4Pound.com - P4P Number 1

I've been a fan of Andrade since he fought Kessler. It's a shame that a guy subjects himself to all he did against Bute just so a BS referee can take the W out of his hands.

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Originally Posted by Killface

I've been a fan of Andrade since he fought Kessler. It's a shame that a guy subjects himself to all he did against Bute just so a BS referee can take the W out of his hands.

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The ref didn't cost Andrade the fight.

When Bute was knocked down there were 3 seconds left on the clock!

All he had to do was get up within 10 seconds and he wins.

Count the amount of time he's on the floor. He gets to his feet on the count of 9 and by that I mean from the time he actually hits the floor, NOT the time from when the ref starts the count.

He survived the fight, barely and keeps his title. He would have won regardless of a long count or not becuase there was no time left in the fight.

I'm amazed people are still talking as if the ref cost Andrade a win becuase now we have all the facts and can analyse it without the emotion surrounding the immediate aftermath of the fight it's clear that Bute would have won anyway.

The only way Adrade wins is if the ref counts Bute out and given the fact that there was NO time left in the fight that would have been a fucking tragedy.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

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Originally Posted by ICB

first off how in the hell did the ref help Lucian Bute early on ? yes he let Lucian Bute hold a bit too much, but he wasn't clinching that much

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Somehow I'm dumbfounded by this...
I read this about 35 times and I just couldn't get past it.
Looks like you just went in circles there... :hypnotized:

Either I'm an idiot or your trying to sneak one past me, cause everytime I read that I found myself scratching my head and starting over with "First off..."

At one point in the 35 readings I found myself agreeing with you just cause I was confused with the 1st part of it...

Anyone else having this problem or Am I the only one?

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What i was basically saying is that you was making a big deal, out of the holding like its one of the worst things ever witnessed in the sport. He let him hold a bit too much which i agree on, but its hardly like it was helping or would have changed the outcome of the fight. And its hardly like Bute was clinching all the time was it ? and Andrade was also allowed to get away with fouls on the inside especially using his elbows, and he was never warned for that. So like i said it works both ways doesn't it ?

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Originally Posted by Diane

And it's not irrelevent, because Wright failed to check Bute properly to see if he was able to continue. Even though the round was over, after giving the count, Wright was supposed to make Bute take a few steps forward, to see if Bute would be able to continue to fight, but he did not do that. Wright let the ropes continue to hold Bute up. If Bute would have step forward, it would have been obvious to everyone that he would not have been able to continue, thus it should have gone as a TKO.

The ropes saved Bute from going outside of the ring at least 2 times prior to the knock down, and he stopped defending himself with 35 seconds left! He was done!

I like Bute, don't get me wrong, and he was clearly winning the fight until the 12th round, but I'm not going to be blind to what occurred, just because I like a fighter.

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Diane to my knowledge there is nothing in the rules, that states you cannot lean against the ropes after getting up from a knockdown. Also after the fight was finished Bute clearly walked forward to his corner. With no real trouble from my memory so i don't understand what your getting at ?

Bute was in real trouble before the knockdown but Andrade was still struggling, to land clean punches until the last 19 seconds. And in no way shape or form should any ref of stopped the fight before the knockdown.

To answer your other question i believe in the rules, it states that you have to check the other fighter is in the neutral corner. This is where Richard Steele made a mistake in the Taylor vs Chavez fight, because Chavez wasn't in the neutral corner and he didn't bother checking.

Bute could never have taken 2 steps forward after an 8 count.

Going back to JCC Taylor, the ref (God bless Richard Steele) asked Taylor if he was ok... he didn't respond... had Taylor responded, he woudl have told him to take a couple steps forward. Had he done that he would have won the fight. Unfortunately fro him, he was staring at his corner wondering why they were in hysterics.

Bute would not have been able to do either of these. If this is a sanctioned title fight (which it is); I think there should be an appeal made to change it to a NC. THAT is how up in arms I am about this.

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Originally Posted by JonnyFolds

Bute could never have taken 2 steps forward after an 8 count.

Going back to JCC Taylor, the ref (God bless Richard Steele) asked Taylor if he was ok... he didn't respond... had Taylor responded, he woudl have told him to take a couple steps forward. Had he done that he would have won the fight. Unfortunately fro him, he was staring at his corner wondering why they were in hysterics.

Bute would not have been able to do either of these. If this is a sanctioned title fight (which it is); I think there should be an appeal made to change it to a NC. THAT is how up in arms I am about this.

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Bute walked to his corner fine after the fight, so how couldn't he have taken 2 steps forward ? plus Taylor did actually respond to Steele, he nodded his head then looked at his corner and by the time he looked back. The fight was over because Steele gave Taylor no chance to respond.

Plus Steele broke the rules by not checking Chavez was in the neutral corner, when he clearly wasn't. Plus his count was super quick like he was trying to count Taylor out which was ridiculous. Its obvious he was favoring Chavez like he had favored over Don King fighters in the past.

Im not saying the ref in the Bute fight wasn't favoring Bute, but he didn't actually break any rules to my knowledge. And the ref making sure Andrade is in the neutral corner may sound ridiculous, to everyone else but thats in the rules and he didn't break any rules by doing so. Andrade slightly walked out of his corner so he has to take some blame for that.

Im not saying it was right for the ref to tell off Andrade like that, because Andrade was in the neutral corner although he slightly walked out of the neutral corner. But this is all irrelvant because the time in the round was over, so Andrade had no chance to finish Bute. And had the ref stopped the fight with no time left in the fight that would of been a bigger robbery than Taylor vs Chavez IMO. I still think this controversy is being overrated, when i see this thread i was expecting one of the biggest crimes ever in boxing history.

But when i watched the fight myself, i was actually shocked because i didn't see anything bad. Other than the ref telling off Andrade about not being in the neutral corner, but that was irrelvant because the time in the fight was over.

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Originally Posted by JonnyFolds

Bute could never have taken 2 steps forward after an 8 count.

Going back to JCC Taylor, the ref (God bless Richard Steele) asked Taylor if he was ok... he didn't respond... had Taylor responded, he woudl have told him to take a couple steps forward. Had he done that he would have won the fight. Unfortunately fro him, he was staring at his corner wondering why they were in hysterics.

Bute would not have been able to do either of these. If this is a sanctioned title fight (which it is); I think there should be an appeal made to change it to a NC. THAT is how up in arms I am about this.

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First off the Meldrick Taylor stoppage was a robbery plain and simple.

Second you simply cannot state as a matter of fact that Bute couldn't respond.

He did what was asked of him. He got up before 10 seconds had elapsed. (I'm not talking about the ref's 10 seconds i'm talking about the real 10 seconds) so he made it to the end.

You miss the point that the fight was over at this point. All Bute had to do was stand up. It sounds like you are trying to suggest the referee should have counted Bute out of the fight because YOU think he was unable to continue even though the fight was over.

If you want the referee to be so pedantic and picky that he would stick to a ruling and say the fighter must be counted out because he's in no position to fight, even though the fight was over and he wouldn't need to fight then how can you contradict yourself and say he should have exercised a common sense approach to Bute not going back to the neutral corner? :confused:


If according to the strictest interperation of the rules Bute should have been stopped because he was unable to fight on (even though I don't agree) then according the the strictest interperation of the rules Andrade didn't go straight to the neutral corner and so delayed the count, and then he walked away from the corner and so further delayed the count.

Do I think Marlon was over pedantic to delay the count, yes I do. It was a bad call. BUT it would have been an even worse call to KO Bute when he was up at 10 and the fight was over!

Watch the replays. When Bute went down there were 3 seconds on the clock. He got up at 9 so the fight is over, even without the extra 15 seconds of delay.

So yes. the ref handled it poorly imo, but the right guy one the fight and Andrade's rally came too late.

If anything this has helped Andrade imo. If the ref hadn't made the delayed count, Bute would have got up and the fight would have been over without controversy, (at least as to who one).

This delayed count has given Andrade ammunition for a rematch, which I think we all really want to see.

But in my opinion the right man got the win.

Hell with it - let's just have a rematch.

With a different ref.

bute stumbled to his corner, like a drunkard after the ref stopped the figth. He did not walk to his corner fine.

This is a genuine question, where in the IBF rules does it state that following a KD at the end of the fight the fighter must take steps forward etc. to prove he can continue? The only relevant rule I have seen is (I think) rule 6, which states that if I fighter is KD'd at the end of the fight the count will continue until his gloves leave the canvas.

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Originally Posted by CFH

This is a genuine question, where in the IBF rules does it state that following a KD at the end of the fight the fighter must take steps forward etc. to prove he can continue? The only relevant rule I have seen is (I think) rule 6, which states that if I fighter is KD'd at the end of the fight the count will continue until his gloves leave the canvas.

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My understanding is that it follows directly from the 'cannot be saved by the bell in any round rule'; i.e. a fighter must be fit to continue, even if there is no actual time left on the clock (and the rule 6, you mention also states that the fight was not over at the 3min mark).

Personally I dont think Andrade necessarily won that fight, because none of us actually know what would have happened if the count had been done properly, and Bute been asked to step forward and clear hands. He was up before the 10 count, even without Wright's sheananigans, but he certainly did not look like he could walk forward to me. In any case the referee did handle this absolutely terrible, robbing us from knowing who really should have won.

As for Bilbo's comments that being pedantic in one are should lead to refs being pedantic in others (or then not at all), well there is a helluva difference between a ref protecting the fighters in the ring - his job - and a ref nitpicking technicalities. One thing might cost a fighter his life, the other... not so much.

Finally, I disagree with the notion that it would have been controversial in any case (a view I saw Dan Rafael subscribe to too btw). If the fight had been stopped before the knockdown, and yes I do think a case can be made for this, then absolutely it would have been controversial. If the fight was stopped because Lucian Bute received a count, was asked to walk forward and clear hands and failed to do this, then it might have been dramatic, but surely it wouldnt be controversial.

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

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Originally Posted by ICB

first off how in the hell did the ref help Lucian Bute early on ? yes he let Lucian Bute hold a bit too much, but he wasn't clinching that much

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Somehow I'm dumbfounded by this...
I read this about 35 times and I just couldn't get past it.
Looks like you just went in circles there... :hypnotized:

Either I'm an idiot or your trying to sneak one past me, cause everytime I read that I found myself scratching my head and starting over with "First off..."

At one point in the 35 readings I found myself agreeing with you just cause I was confused with the 1st part of it...

Anyone else having this problem or Am I the only one?

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What i was basically saying is that you was making a big deal, out of the holding like its one of the worst things ever witnessed in the sport. He let him hold a bit too much which i agree on, but its hardly like it was helping or would have changed the outcome of the fight. And its hardly like Bute was clinching all the time was it ? and Andrade was also allowed to get away with fouls on the inside especially using his elbows, and he was never warned for that. So like i said it works both ways doesn't it ?

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Are you serious ICB?
What do you mean it wouldn't have changed it?
It was clear and IT'S clear that Bute cannot fight on the inside.
So yes, YES it would have changed the fight because Andrade would have landed many more punches would the inside figthting had not been stopped by Bute holding.
For you to say it wouldn't have changed the fight is way off because it was clear that Andrade did his best work on the inside.

Cut people always hold i mean that not that big of issuse i mean come on he let him hold you sound like the he is first ref to let a fighter hold. And according to cfh the rules let Bute have the win i watch the fight he was off the canvas and made the count and he won the fight get over it.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Somehow I'm dumbfounded by this...
I read this about 35 times and I just couldn't get past it.
Looks like you just went in circles there... :hypnotized:

Either I'm an idiot or your trying to sneak one past me, cause everytime I read that I found myself scratching my head and starting over with "First off..."

At one point in the 35 readings I found myself agreeing with you just cause I was confused with the 1st part of it...

Anyone else having this problem or Am I the only one?

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What i was basically saying is that you was making a big deal, out of the holding like its one of the worst things ever witnessed in the sport. He let him hold a bit too much which i agree on, but its hardly like it was helping or would have changed the outcome of the fight. And its hardly like Bute was clinching all the time was it ? and Andrade was also allowed to get away with fouls on the inside especially using his elbows, and he was never warned for that. So like i said it works both ways doesn't it ?

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Are you serious ICB?
What do you mean it wouldn't have changed it?
It was clear and IT'S clear that Bute cannot fight on the inside.
So yes, YES it would have changed the fight because Andrade would have landed many more punches would the inside figthting had not been stopped by Bute holding.
For you to say it wouldn't have changed the fight is way off because it was clear that Andrade did his best work on the inside.

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Yes im serious Lucian Bute wasn't clinching as much as your making out, he wasn't exactly clinching to the point of taking a point away or etc. I didn't really see anything wrong with it to be honest.

Lucian Bute was clinching more in the later stages when he started to tire, to stop Librado's Andrade inside work. But theres nothing wrong in that. Evander Holyfield done exactly the samething against Mike Tyson in there 1st fight, but he done it much more frequently than Lucian Bute did.

I really don't see why your making such a big deal out of it, no offense its your opinion and i respect that. But i didn't see anything wrong with Lucian Bute's clinching its not like it was frequent, the only thing i disliked was the ref telling off Librado Andrade about clinching later on in the fight which was ridiculous. But that was only once or twice in the entire fight i believe so it made no difference.

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Originally Posted by CFH

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

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I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished ;)

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by CFH

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

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I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished ;)

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That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by CFH

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

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I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished ;)

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That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

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I think the rule makes sense.

I didn't think Bute was in a fit state to continue (maybe could have been stopped before the knockdown). But you can't deem a fighter unfit to fight AFTER a contest has ended.

The ref was poor. Andrade was unlucky.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished ;)

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That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

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I think the rule makes sense.

I didn't think Bute was in a fit state to continue (maybe could have been stopped before the knockdown). But you can't deem a fighter unfit to fight AFTER a contest has ended.

The ref was poor. Andrade was unlucky.

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Again, we are in complete agreement. If there was even ten seconds left in the fight, then stop it, but the bell had rang and the fight had ended when Bute made it to his feet and his gloves had cleared the canvas.

I think with a different ref there may well have been a different outcome as Bute would not have been allowed to hold/foul all night, but I think the decision as the end of the fight not to call a TKO on Bute was completely correct.

I want to see a rematch so we can put all these questions to bed.