-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Dont but the Toney intimidates for a minute,just cant. Big bad paunchy Toney waddling up to White and company, all inaudible and spitting while he talks,laying down terms and twisting arms, Nah. He puts his persona out there and commands interviews but has equally had it fall flat,especially when its clear he cant even compete at the top in his chosen field the last few years. White deals with much more in depth competitors in his own house,Ufc and they know the business that is mma. Toney didn't bully a thing without White seeing an opportunity to make bank on a high profile 'known' big mouth personality...and one billed as a boxing 'heavyweight champion'.
I'm not one to disparage mma as a sport but to talk on UFC as if its without flaws and potential pitfalls amongst the ranks is waaaay to premature. White came in and gave it uniformity and collected companies and competition to give it one huge recognizable face. Hey....hats off. Boxing is its own worse enemy in spots no doubt and at times its like being in a one sided mentally abusive relationship with a over bearing female. But It is way to soon to lump it with a NFL or NBA who had both morphed over decades to become what we know today. UFC will grow and in doing so will conjure other franchises and opportunity's for its athletes...cant rule from the mount forever. Trust me it has plenty of time to see inconsistency and suffer the same black eyes and self inflicted wounds boxing has. How long has UFC existed...7,8 years ? Gotta add the difference with Toney/Couture and Hopkins/Jones 2...........B hop and Jones had a few boxing matches under the belt.
By bullying I don't mean Dana signed him purely because he was scared, but he gave in and even admitted immediately afterward that he doesn't know why he signed him. He publicly said numerous times he wouldn't participate in a "freak show", then admitted that this was one. Obviously it made money, drummed up attention, but James was the driving force, Dana was a co conspirator, not the mastermind.
I think James is who was demanding to be called "Heavyweight Champ". He was demanding to fight mma's heavyweight champ as boxings heavyweight champ. Boxing is who gave James the title he was bragging on. Which one was it again???? How many heavyweight champs are there right now?
UFC certainly has flaws. It is however, a brand, and has created a culture. Boxing has no face, no brand, no culture, no organization, and tons of belts. It is structured in a manner that it can never become a brand. UFC is bigger than the fighters and goes on with or without the current fighters. They have become a brand. Like kleenex, xerox, and the other major sports organizations, it is synanamous with the sport itself. At this stage it is impossible for boxing to EVER get to that point. Therefore boxing will be stagnate and will live and die with it's current great fighters. The stumblings that UFC will experience will still never lead it to the same state as boxing now.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Well said Lyle. Honestly as we've discussed I can't stand most of the MMA fans that wear "Tapout" and drive Daddy's truck or car and think they are tough.
I like MMA and I'm an MMA fan myself, but I'm a boxing fan first.
Last night was a pathetic display by Toney. A non effort. Didn't even try for a KO punch when Randy shot in. Just fell over like a fat hippo.
Hell I say lets have Mercer and Kimbo have a rematch now and see who wins.
Gurantee Mercer would kill him now after training in MMA.
Oh I agree 100% those Tapout bastards irritate the piss out of me....those guys are "those mma fans" the guys that talk tons of shit, know fuck all about any type of fighting at all.....they are an embarassment to human beings.
I am not an "MMA fan" but I can tolerate it better these days...I usually just critique the striking abilities of those guys. Some throw pretty well, they are usually the guys that don't defend against strikes all that great or avoid them, and so you can see where a boxer in theory could wipe the floor with them, but hell just adding in wrestling and kickboxing tactics to boxing would screw the boxer's gameplan up.
The main thing I hate about MMA is the outspoken ignorant fanbase, yes boxing has our fair share of shitheads, but MMA has a "culture" now, boxing doesn't have 1 culture, it hasn't been marketed as a stereotype and MMA has and it's that stereotype that I just cannot and will not put up with.
I didn't see the fight, I didn't plan to watch the fight, I figured JT had the wrong style for MMA and Randy was definently the wrong match for him...I think a Toney-Rampage Jackson or Shane Carwin fight would have been more interesting, but even then James Toney has had over 80 pro fights, he's washed up, he's old, he's finished and that was well before this MMA charade. Sure some little keyboard warriors for MMA will try and say something like this fight is proof that boxers can't cut it in MMA and that MMA is a better sport but as rational fans of SPORT (in general) will see is that in "Mixed Martial Arts" there are several ways to win and several ways to lose and if you train specifically in 1 area following all their rules and regulations you will be at a disadvantage in MMA because you have to "un-learn" habits that are specifically taught in other martial arts...All martial arts have their pros and cons...James Toney just demostrated the weakness of boxing vs wrestling, but on the other hand Ray Mercer demostrated the strength of boxing vs whatever the hell Tim Sylvia does/did. This whole MMA vs Boxing is not a zero sum game, there is not a clear winner or a clear loser as both sports are going nowhere, there will ALWAYS be boxing and there will always be other forms of martial art.
As you stated, the sports are different and mastering one does not mean you will do really well at another. In general, wrestling has proven to be the most consistently useful discipline ever since mma started. Boxing is an accessory to the wrestler, and without it, they rarely go very far. Pure strikers rarely do well, and if you put a pure striker against a pure wrestler, the fight will go the distance and the wrestler will win a decision. It's just about control, and a wrestler will control the fight.
The mma vs boxing as a sport is truly a waste of time argument. BUT.... which one is growing and which one isn't is a no brainer. MMA has created a culture and it is organized for growth. Boxing can't and won't. It will never go away, but it will never become a culture or brand. Can you imagine people wearing around WBC tshirts, WBA, IBF, WBO???? Where can you go buy a tshirt with your favorite boxer on it? What store carries a boxing brand other than generic everlast equipment or sports gear that they carry for any sport? Hate on Tapout all you want, but they've done an amazing thing. Tapout has done more for mma than every boxing promoter combined has done for boxing. I live near their headquarters, i've got tapout stuff and I wear it because I genuinely like it. The warehouse has a couple of annual sales where they bring in fighters for autographs and sell everything really cheap. The lines are 12 hours deep. It's unreal. I've seen it, been there, done that. You can hate it all you want, and some of "those fans" are real jackasses, but it's a small percentage and the people in line are are young and you see whole families. They sell posters, tshirts, hats, shoes, stickers, pants, bags, watches, who the fuck knows what else. It's amazing.
Boxing has nothing to be worried about. They aren't even in the same category. Pro wrestling is who's taking a beating from UFC. Boxing was never in this fight....EVER.... Boxing has never been organized and never will be. Let me know when you can walk into the mall and buy a shirt with your favorite boxer's name on it, and choose from several of your favorites. Not gonna happen. UFC is stealing WWE's lunch money, boxing never had any to steal.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.
Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section. Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook
How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.
Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.
BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.
Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section.
Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook
How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.
Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.
BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.
Good post here.
I remember when Mayweather fought Marquez and that prick Dana White was slagging boxing off saying it wasn't giving people the fight they wanted to see. Well maybe it wasn't but I know one thing he was very quiet after HBO announced it's PPV numbers because it kicked UFC 103's backside.
Boxing is still the combat sport most of the world want to see and worldwide it is once again the second most watched sport falling second only to football (soccer). If somehow over the next 12 months CERTAIN fights everyone wants to see are made, we will see just how much more popular boxing is.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.
Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section.
Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook
How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.
Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.
BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.
They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hunter
My opinion is MMA fighters are better pure fighters....If you were in a bar room brawl no holds barred, an MMA fighter is going to win most of the time. That being said I prefer to watch boxing.
...I'll take my chances throwing my fists, but to each their own
This boxer did pretty well defending himself against 4-5 guys attacking him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWEroXIdGEg
:cool:
Good point. MMA guys seem to think that they have an advantage if it was a street fight but if there was a group attack a boxer can fend off many guys with his fists. An MMA fighter would be busy humping one guy whilst the others beat the crap outta him.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.
Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section.
Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook
How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.
Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.
BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.
They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.
Was Marquez-Diaz not an HBO PPV fight? To be fair Sky do give us quite a lot of big PPV fights from the U.S. but it has to involve at least one real big name. I was quite shocked that they didn't show Cotto's last fight but then again they showed us that debacle between Cintron and Williams. I'm sure that fight can't have helped things as far as Sky paying to show big fights over here.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
luvfightgame
UFC certainly has flaws. It is however, a brand, and has created a culture. Boxing has no face, no brand, no culture, no organization, and tons of belts.
By being a brand the UFC has shrunk the size of their tent...being a brand says to the fans "Wear these clothes, drink this energy drink, act like this, etc".....I think it's good that boxing is still more nebulous, as a fan you aren't force fed anything by any organization and it allows for the individual personalities of boxing to remain individual personalities and I think that's a very positive thing. Boxing also doesn't have 1 guy running the show unlike UFC where Dana White is a lightening rod for controversy and he has made some very public very idiotic rants ie "I'll destroy the internet"
So being an organization does have it's draw backs....I mean how long before the UFC fighters go Union? How long before lock outs or collective bargaining? Boxing doesn't have those issues.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
UFC and Boxing Do not compare on a world Scale in the UK MMA is popular but nowhere near the size of boxing for example if a Hatton fight was on it would outsell that years UFC events combined over here. UFC is a good sport though, but very different from boxing.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.
Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section.
Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook
How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.
Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.
BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.
They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.
Was Marquez-Diaz not an HBO PPV fight? To be fair Sky do give us quite a lot of big PPV fights from the U.S. but it has to involve at least one real big name. I was quite shocked that they didn't show Cotto's last fight but then again they showed us that debacle between Cintron and Williams. I'm sure that fight can't have helped things as far as Sky paying to show big fights over here.
I don't know, but it wasn't shown out here. Nothing is covered these days. I'm not in the UK or the US though, I am Korea bound.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.
Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section.
Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook
How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.
Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.
BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.
They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.
Was Marquez-Diaz not an HBO PPV fight? To be fair Sky do give us quite a lot of big PPV fights from the U.S. but it has to involve at least one real big name. I was quite shocked that they didn't show Cotto's last fight but then again they showed us that debacle between Cintron and Williams. I'm sure that fight can't have helped things as far as Sky paying to show big fights over here.
I don't know, but it wasn't shown out here. Nothing is covered these days. I'm not in the UK or the US though, I am Korea bound.
What about the Mosley-Mayweather fight? That was the biggest fight this year. Well I can sort of understand Pac-Cotto considering that Manny is a massive superstar that has transcended his sport. Or maybe it's because he's Asian, I don't know.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.
Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section.
Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook
How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.
Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.
BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.
They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.
Was Marquez-Diaz not an HBO PPV fight? To be fair Sky do give us quite a lot of big PPV fights from the U.S. but it has to involve at least one real big name. I was quite shocked that they didn't show Cotto's last fight but then again they showed us that debacle between Cintron and Williams. I'm sure that fight can't have helped things as far as Sky paying to show big fights over here.
I don't know, but it wasn't shown out here. Nothing is covered these days. I'm not in the UK or the US though, I am Korea bound.
What about the Mosley-Mayweather fight? That was the biggest fight this year. Well I can sort of understand Pac-Cotto considering that Manny is a massive superstar that has transcended his sport. Or maybe it's because he's Asian, I don't know.
No, I was pissed off because I thought with that being a megafight it would be covered, but no. I had to use a stream for that. That's the frustrating thing, I would happily hand money over to watch a big fight, but I don't even have that option. :-\
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
luvfightgame
UFC certainly has flaws. It is however, a brand, and has created a culture. Boxing has no face, no brand, no culture, no organization, and tons of belts.
By being a brand the UFC has shrunk the size of their tent...being a brand says to the fans "Wear these clothes, drink this energy drink, act like this, etc".....I think it's good that boxing is still more nebulous, as a fan you aren't force fed anything by any organization and it allows for the individual personalities of boxing to remain individual personalities and I think that's a very positive thing. Boxing also doesn't have 1 guy running the show unlike UFC where Dana White is a lightening rod for controversy and he has made some very public very idiotic rants ie "I'll destroy the internet"
So being an organization does have it's draw backs....I mean how long before the UFC fighters go Union? How long before lock outs or collective bargaining? Boxing doesn't have those issues.
Being a brand is what gets them advertisers. They promote video games, motorcycles, clothing, supplements, etc... It's the paying advertisers pushing brands, not UFC. It's like saying that BUD LIGHT is forced on football fans. Because it's a brand that attracts a valuable demographic, they have advertisers that want to be associated with them. It's a sign of success, not being forced to use these products if you want to watch a fight.
UFC fighters going union would be a further sign of success. Whether it's damaging or productive for the fighters would be arguable. Boxing CAN'T go union. Boxing has their own lockouts, look what HBO did to the Klitschkos??? Don't need unions, boxing in general is handled like Fedor's management, and that's a mess.
Don King, Bob Arum, Gary Shaw, all really stellar guys for boxing. You'd take those 3 over 1 Dana White?
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Boxing's lack of central 'branding' makes it far harder for casual fans to follow.
You can like NFL football without knowing more than one or two players. You might not even know every team. You just know that you've seen it before and it was exciting. If there is an NFL game on, you know that you are seeing the best level of american football available. If its sunday afternoon or monday night, there is a game on. If its the superbowl, you know its 'the big game'. Plenty of people watch who couldn't name ever team, let alone 2 players/team.
Compare this with how difficult it is to follow boxing. If you knew, lets say 15 fighters, you'd still have a tough time knowing what you were looking at on most televised cards. You also probably don't know when those televised cards are. Even if there is a belt on the line, you can judge that the guys must be pretty good, but some belts mean less then others and some weight classes seem weaker then others. For casual fans, they don't know what's happening.
The UFC closes a lot of this gap. There are fans who might only know 5-10 fighters, and many 'fans' couldn't even list the 5 UFC beltholders if you asked them. They don't know what weight class half the fighters are in. I've sat in bars beside ecstatic fans telling me they'd like to see GSP fight Rashad Evans, and seem to not really pick up on my subtle hint that the 35 lb two weight class differential is a fair bit. But fans like this can sort of follow the UFC. Every 3-4 weeks there is a PPV card. You like UFC, you watch that, the end. If there's a belt on the line, its a 'real' belt.
The last time Wlad Klitschko fought, it was on free tv here, late afternoon. I have friends who like boxing, but don't follow it well. None of them knew the fight was even on.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GAME
Good point. MMA guys seem to think that they have an advantage if it was a street fight but if there was a group attack a boxer can fend off many guys with his fists. An MMA fighter would be busy humping one guy whilst the others beat the crap outta him.
Oh please.. A good MMA fighter has hands, forarms, elbows, knees, legs, feet, headbutt.
A good analogy of the difference between boxing and mixed martal arts is the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight", as Toney found out.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ralph
Oh please.. A good MMA fighter has hands, forarms, elbows, knees, legs, feet, headbutt.
A good analogy of the difference between boxing and mixed martal arts is the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight", as Toney found out.
....what did Tim Sylvia find out?
As far as the branding, yeah MMA has it and now you have loads of "Fans" who know fuck all about the sport, they just like the culture. In boxing right now fans have to follow the SPORT not the culture....there's pros and cons to each business model, in one you get a bunch of fair weather fans and idiots and with the other you don't get as many fans but you get more dedicated fans.
Wheres the money? BOXING
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.
UFC officials announce Asian operations, NBA exec Mark Fischer named head
by Dann Stupp on Aug 29, 2010 at 12:00 pm ET
BOSTON – As expected the Ultimate Fighting Championship has opened a dedicated Asian Operations division, and former NBA China executive Mark Fischer has been named executive vice president and managing director.
UFC officials made the announcement at Saturday's post-UFC 118 press conference in Boston.
As part of the initiative, Fischer will look to build a roster of local talent and develop relationships with many sports federations in the region, including the China National Wushu Federation.
Credit mmajunkie.com
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ralph
Oh please.. A good MMA fighter has hands, forarms, elbows, knees, legs, feet, headbutt.
A good analogy of the difference between boxing and mixed martal arts is the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight", as Toney found out.
....what did Tim Sylvia find out?
As far as the branding, yeah MMA has it and now you have loads of "Fans" who know fuck all about the sport, they just like the culture. In boxing right now fans have to follow the SPORT not the culture....there's pros and cons to each business model, in one you get a bunch of fair weather fans and idiots and with the other you don't get as many fans but you get more dedicated fans.
Wheres the money?
BOXING
I'll bet there are more MMA gyms in the US, and people involved in it than boxing gyms and people boxing.
try www dot findmmagym.com and type in a city.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
....what did Tim Sylvia find out?
He found out he didn't use all the training and skills he had available.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
So there are more MMA gyms than boxing gyms what's your point? Boxing is still an Olympic sport and has an amateur pool of talent where they can reload their ranks....MMA is dependent on people to BECOME MMA fighters be they wrestlers, ju jitsu fighters, etc, they have to learn (and be willing to learn) more than their one strength to do that sport.
The MONEY is in the sport of boxing and not MMA, look at the paychecks....if Kimbo was as bad ass as everyone thought he was there would have been no question which sport he would have chosen between Boxing and MMA...I bet you Shannon Briggs makes more money in his up coming fight vs Vitali than Brock Lesnar made vs Shane Carwin in "The UFC's Biggest Heavyweight Fight of All-Time"....Audley Harrison will probably make more money vs Chicken Little than Lesnar did vs Carwin.
Tim Sylvia found out that power punching boxers with 4 oz gloves on can do damage quick. Randy won because he refused to fight James Toney's fight, he was smart and respectful of what James could do....James got humiliated, I don't feel bad for him, the dude NEVER stops talking and this won't change it. Couture is one of those guys that even as a boxing fan I can respect, he fights smart, he knows what he's capable of, and he's respectful...unlike the stereotypical MMA fighter/fan. Put an MMA fighter in a boxing ring vs pretty much any top 100 fighter of any division...the odds are boxers will whip the crap out of those MMA guys
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
So there are more MMA gyms than boxing gyms what's your point? Boxing is still an Olympic sport and has an amateur pool of talent where they can reload their ranks....MMA is dependent on people to BECOME MMA fighters be they wrestlers, ju jitsu fighters, etc, they have to learn (and be willing to learn) more than their one strength to do that sport.
The MONEY is in the sport of boxing and not MMA, look at the paychecks....if Kimbo was as bad ass as everyone thought he was there would have been no question which sport he would have chosen between Boxing and MMA...I bet you Shannon Briggs makes more money in his up coming fight vs Vitali than Brock Lesnar made vs Shane Carwin in "The UFC's Biggest Heavyweight Fight of All-Time"....Audley Harrison will probably make more money vs Chicken Little than Lesnar did vs Carwin.
Tim Sylvia found out that power punching boxers with 4 oz gloves on can do damage quick. Randy won because he refused to fight James Toney's fight, he was smart and respectful of what James could do....James got humiliated, I don't feel bad for him, the dude NEVER stops talking and this won't change it. Couture is one of those guys that even as a boxing fan I can respect, he fights smart, he knows what he's capable of, and he's respectful...unlike the stereotypical MMA fighter/fan. Put an MMA fighter in a boxing ring vs pretty much any top 100 fighter of any division...the odds are boxers will whip the crap out of those MMA guys
This arguement of boxing vs MMA is so ridiculous. The UFC is 17 years old 17 boxing is how old? Come on of course boxing is going to make more money. MMA is still relatively young as a sport, but it is growing.
The whole put a MMA guy in the ring with a boxer the MMA guy would get whipped. The same goes the other way. The whole arguement is just stupid. These are two completely different sports and do not need to be compared at all.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
So there are more MMA gyms than boxing gyms what's your point? Boxing is still an Olympic sport and has an amateur pool of talent where they can reload their ranks....MMA is dependent on people to BECOME MMA fighters be they wrestlers, ju jitsu fighters, etc, they have to learn (and be willing to learn) more than their one strength to do that sport.
The MONEY is in the sport of boxing and not MMA, look at the paychecks....if Kimbo was as bad ass as everyone thought he was there would have been no question which sport he would have chosen between Boxing and MMA...I bet you Shannon Briggs makes more money in his up coming fight vs Vitali than Brock Lesnar made vs Shane Carwin in "The UFC's Biggest Heavyweight Fight of All-Time"....Audley Harrison will probably make more money vs Chicken Little than Lesnar did vs Carwin.
Tim Sylvia found out that power punching boxers with 4 oz gloves on can do damage quick. Randy won because he refused to fight James Toney's fight, he was smart and respectful of what James could do....James got humiliated, I don't feel bad for him, the dude NEVER stops talking and this won't change it. Couture is one of those guys that even as a boxing fan I can respect, he fights smart, he knows what he's capable of, and he's respectful...unlike the stereotypical MMA fighter/fan. Put an MMA fighter in a boxing ring vs pretty much any top 100 fighter of any division...the odds are boxers will whip the crap out of those MMA guys
See what you are highlighting isn't a positive thing. Boxers getting huge paychecks for showing up contributed to the current state of PRO Boxing. How many talented boxers turned to shit as soon as they got a big paycheck. Lots of them are playing the lottery, not trying to be the best.
The pay disparity is a huge problem. Top boxers make too much. Top MMA make not enough. There needs to be a middle ground. And I am willing to bet that UFC pay will continue to go up and probably reach the middle ground.
MMA is only 17yrs old. It will be in the olympics as some point. About half of the disciplines are in the olympics: wrestling, boxing, and judo. As far as amateurs to draw from..... wrestling is WAYYYYYY more popular than boxing as an amateur sport. Check how many junior high, high school, colleges have a boxing team and how many have a wrestling team. And MMA has a deeper talent pool than boxing because of wrestling, judo, Jiu Jitsu, etc, and there is a wider international base.
Mercer and Silvia was supposed to be boxing and Silvia was TRYING to do the opposite of James Toney by beating a boxer boxing.....
Quote:
There's an unsanctioned fight Saturday night in Alabama between over-the-hill boxer
Ray Mercer and former UFC heavyweight champion
Tim Sylvia, the kind of ridiculous fight that gives combat sports a bad name. But the fight just got even more ridiculous, because just two days beforehand, the promoters have changed it from a boxing match to an MMA fight.
Needless to say we know how that turned out, and it proves what most reasonable fans have been saying all along. Boxers will win a boxing match, and MMA fighters will win an mma fight. Tim was trying to box. He wanted to cross over. He might have made it through the first round if the gloves were boxing gloves, but he would have gotten a beating either way, 4oz is just a lot less forgiving. You will never see punch stats with 4oz gloves where a guy eats 500punches and is conscious.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
So there are more MMA gyms than boxing gyms what's your point? Boxing is still an Olympic sport and has an amateur pool of talent where they can reload their ranks....MMA is dependent on people to BECOME MMA fighters be they wrestlers, ju jitsu fighters, etc, they have to learn (and be willing to learn) more than their one strength to do that sport.
The MONEY is in the sport of boxing and not MMA, look at the paychecks....if Kimbo was as bad ass as everyone thought he was there would have been no question which sport he would have chosen between Boxing and MMA...I bet you Shannon Briggs makes more money in his up coming fight vs Vitali than Brock Lesnar made vs Shane Carwin in "The UFC's Biggest Heavyweight Fight of All-Time"....Audley Harrison will probably make more money vs Chicken Little than Lesnar did vs Carwin.
Tim Sylvia found out that power punching boxers with 4 oz gloves on can do damage quick. Randy won because he refused to fight James Toney's fight, he was smart and respectful of what James could do....James got humiliated, I don't feel bad for him, the dude NEVER stops talking and this won't change it. Couture is one of those guys that even as a boxing fan I can respect, he fights smart, he knows what he's capable of, and he's respectful...unlike the stereotypical MMA fighter/fan. Put an MMA fighter in a boxing ring vs pretty much any top 100 fighter of any division...the odds are boxers will whip the crap out of those MMA guys
The UFC has only been around since 2001 in it's present form. I believe it's became more popular in the time it's existed than boxing has, considering how long boxing has been around.
As far as pay, give it some time. It'll get there.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
There's just no arguing with MMA fans :vd:
OK so Ray Mercer took a SURPRISE MMA match vs Tim Sylvia and whipped his ass in under a minute and you think that vindicates Sylvia? :-\
The Olympics won't have MMA...#1 There are no amateur MMA programs out there #2 The sport cannot offer any extra protection to it's amateurs given the whole nature of the sport (striking AND grappling) that would require headgear and perhaps bigger gloves...just my opinion given the way boxing and TKD are done in the Olympics
ralph, the internet and 24/7 news (in this case sports) media you can expect things to catch fire like UFC...the issue becomes how will it hold up? As for the money issue, the UFC still bases it's marketing on ENTIRE CARDS....in boxing they usually market just 1 fight, I think that's probably easier because the fan expecting a "Solid CARD" can be disappointed if they see only 2 solid fights, however the fan expecting to see "1 Solid FIGHT" would be very pleased if they got to see 2 solid fights.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ralph
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GAME
Good point. MMA guys seem to think that they have an advantage if it was a street fight but if there was a group attack a boxer can fend off many guys with his fists. An MMA fighter would be busy humping one guy whilst the others beat the crap outta him.
Oh please.. A good MMA fighter has hands, forarms, elbows, knees, legs, feet, headbutt.
A good analogy of the difference between boxing and mixed martal arts is the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight", as Toney found out.
No Toney found out he was an under trained fat out of shape former champion who had no business in another mans house OR kitchen while that man was still hungry...has nothing to do with boxing being a less potent form of offense or sport. Especially in a street where should you take ground and go for submission vs numerous guys you'll end up with a trash can wrapped around your head and a boot in your arse. That was the point I believe.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.
I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.
They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.
Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.
BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.
I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.
They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.
Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.
BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.
MMA is fucking massive in Canada and it's growing at a astronomical pace. Nobody outside of Montreal gives a flying fuck about boxing here.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.
I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.
They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.
Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.
BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.
Not an accurate statement at all. I live in Japan and MMA is a very big deal over and it is more popular than boxing is over here.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Caine3078
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.
I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.
They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.
Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.
BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.
Not an accurate statement at all. I live in Japan and MMA is a very big deal over and it is more popular than boxing is over here.
This is true of Korea too. No doubt MMA is growing in popularity at a rapid rate.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Caine3078
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.
I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.
They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.
Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.
BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.
Not an accurate statement at all. I live in Japan and MMA is a very big deal over and it is more popular than boxing is over here.
Japan was also another country I visited during winter of '09. Sure MMA is popular there but over boxing or Sumo wrestling? BTW I visited a few days after the Naito-Kameda WBC flyweight championship bout, that's how I learned it was one of the most watched events in Japan's television history. The Japanese are sensible that they didn't put boxing on premium cable channels like HBO or Showtime but still have it on free network tv.
Quote:
In 2009, Daisuke Naito and Koki Kameda fought for the WBC flyweight (112 lbs) title and averaged a 43.1% rating (approx. 54 million viewers), peaking at 52.1% (approx. 66 million viewers).
Quote:
The Naito vs. Kameda fight showed that fight sport is not dead as a high ratings product in Japan and that MMA is not being promoted correctly.
Who Needs the Heavier Weights? Not Japan -- MMA Fighting
Quote:
The Sunday fight between Daisuke Naito and Koki Kameda did magnificent TV ratings as expected in Japan, with
the fight averaging 43.1% and peaking at 52.1% on TBS (Tokyo Broadcasting System). The fight was billed as the "Japanese Fight of the Century," and not only lived up to it with its insanely impressive TV performance, but lived up to it in the ring, too. It may not have been a Fight of the Year contender or anything, but it was a very intense fight, an impressive boxing display by Kameda, and a valiant effort from Naito.
Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Don't be too hard on Toney. I wrestled in high school and I and anyone else who has done wrestling will tell you that those low shots are VERY hard to stop for guys with wrestling experience, let alone a 42 year old boxer who hasn't trained any wrestling until recently.
Toney was clearly banking on Randy either going in for the clinch (which is what he usually does, as it is his specialty as a Greco-Roman wrestler) or shooting a mid-level takedown (the common shots you see in UFC). Randy threw a HUGE curveball to Toney because not only is that technique something he's NEVER EVER done in MMA, its a technique you VERY RARELY see.
And Toney did impress me on the ground, believe it or not. Go back and watch Art Jimmerson in the first UFC. Royce took the boxer down and Art was PETRIFIED. Toney looked relatively calm, he didn't turtle up or quit when he took some shots, and he was taking the right precautions to escape the side choke. He lasted a lot longer on the ground with a grappler than I thought he would, and surely a lot longer than Couture would standing with him.
Basically was his performance good for MMA standards? Not really. But was it good for a 42 year old fat blown up Middleweight boxer who has only been training for a few months? I think it was, considering his opposition.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
watching the MMA guy win so easily doesnt mean that MMA fighters are better than boxers
they are 2 totally different sports, its like putting david beckham in a rugby shirt and see how he does at the highest level then coz he does shit saying rugby players are better at rugby than footballers are at football
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
OK so Ray Mercer took a SURPRISE MMA match vs Tim Sylvia and whipped his ass in under a minute and you think that vindicates Sylvia? :-\
Vindicates??? DUH!!! The point is that Sylvia was trying to do the opposite of what Toney did. He was going to outbox a boxer. The fight was scheduled as a BOXING match. The postponed, moved, rescheduled to make sure it was boxing. Then at the last second it wasn't sanctioned so they fought under MMA rules. But Sylvia still said he was going to stand with Mercer and box with him. How can you vindicate a KO:confused: The point is it was an MMA fighter trying to box. Proves what we've all said. If you get out of your element your gonna lose the fight.
Quote:
There are no amateur MMA programs out there #2 The sport cannot offer any extra protection to it's amateurs given the whole nature of the sport (striking AND grappling) that would require headgear and perhaps bigger gloves...just my opinion given the way boxing and TKD are done in the Olympics
There's no arguing with a boxing fan that doesn't check facts before making statements! :rolleyes: I've been to amateur fights. They wear headgear and shin guards. Seen a 12yr old that would kick your ass.....
Quote:
As for the money issue, the UFC still bases it's marketing on ENTIRE CARDS....in boxing they usually market just 1 fight, I think that's probably easier because the fan expecting a "Solid CARD" can be disappointed if they see only 2 solid fights, however the fan expecting to see "1 Solid FIGHT" would be very pleased if they got to see 2 solid fights.
This is exactly why people are disgusted with boxing. The 1 fight often turns into a dud. Feint fests like Tarver RJJ 3, early ko's Spinks Tyson, complete mismatches.
You should follow this model as an investment strategy Lyle.... put all your money in one stock. See how that works:11fb8:
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.
I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.
They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.
Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.
BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.
Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.
You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Don't be too hard on Toney. I wrestled in high school and I and anyone else who has done wrestling will tell you that those low shots are VERY hard to stop for guys with wrestling experience, let alone a 42 year old boxer who hasn't trained any wrestling until recently.
Toney was clearly banking on Randy either going in for the clinch (which is what he usually does, as it is his specialty as a Greco-Roman wrestler) or shooting a mid-level takedown (the common shots you see in UFC). Randy threw a HUGE curveball to Toney because not only is that technique something he's NEVER EVER done in MMA, its a technique you VERY RARELY see.
And Toney did impress me on the ground, believe it or not. Go back and watch Art Jimmerson in the first UFC. Royce took the boxer down and Art was PETRIFIED. Toney looked relatively calm, he didn't turtle up or quit when he took some shots, and he was taking the right precautions to escape the side choke. He lasted a lot longer on the ground with a grappler than I thought he would, and surely a lot longer than Couture would standing with him.
Basically was his performance good for MMA standards? Not really. But was it good for a 42 year old fat blown up Middleweight boxer who has only been training for a few months? I think it was, considering his opposition.
Nah. Randy got straight to mount, and James never offered any resistance. Hips flat, didn't turn, didn't roll. Laid flat on his back. Randy isn't a submission artist, so no he did terrible all things considered.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
luvfightgame
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.
I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.
They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.
Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.
BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.
Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.
You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.
Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?
I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.
I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.
We'll agree to disagree.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
luvfightgame
Quote:
OK so Ray Mercer took a SURPRISE MMA match vs Tim Sylvia and whipped his ass in under a minute and you think that vindicates Sylvia? :-\
Vindicates??? DUH!!! The point is that Sylvia was trying to do the opposite of what Toney did. He was going to outbox a boxer. The fight was scheduled as a BOXING match. The postponed, moved, rescheduled to make sure it was boxing. Then at the last second it wasn't sanctioned so they fought under MMA rules.
But Sylvia still said he was going to stand with Mercer and box with him. How can you vindicate a KO:confused:
The point is it was an MMA fighter trying to box. Proves what we've all said. If you get out of your element your gonna lose the fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUx9OE7DZAo
OK, if Tim was going to "stand and box" then #1 Why is the first strike from Sylvia a kick? #2 Why was he not warned or penalized for doing something that is against the rules in boxing? #3 Why were they in an MMA cage #4 Why were they wearing 4 oz gloves and no shoes?
BECAUSE IT WAS AN MMA MATCH
As for your little tirade on why "Boxing selling 1 match at a time is a bad thing for the sport" what about when we get to see Pacquiao on the undercard of Lewis-Tyson? What about when we see Miguel Cotto-Ricardo Torres on the same card as Wladimir Klitschko-Sam Peter I? My answer to you is, just because you heavily market 1 fight doesn't mean there won't be quality matches on the undercard and if there aren't then it's not like the promoter did the fans a disservice by promising more and delivering less.
If you like MMA watch it, love it, appreciate it...I'm not telling you to do anything different, just keep your MMA bullshit on the tiny little never used MMA section of the forum. I don't care about it, I don't like it, but once in a blue moon I will comment on something about it, and I'll do it in the appropriate forum.
OK so MMA has an amateur system...I didn't know about it, but I still HIGHLY doubt it gets into the Olympics.
As for the boxing vs mma #1 In the ring it's a ridiculous argument...in MMA where you can pretty much do anything of course the MMA fighter using all the weapons he has is at a major advantage than the boxer who is using 1 specific martial art. #2 As for the money, it's still ridiculous....what were Floyd and Manny going to make? #3 As for "MMA gives us every fight we want to see".....what happened with Lesnar vs Fedor? So let's not act like MMA is just picture perfect and I can tell you that you can expect even more of those matches to not get made because the UFC will have competition and the fighters have contracts with COMPANIES and not with independent promoters and let's say Strikeforce pulls an unbelieveable heavyweight out of the blue and all of a sudden he's the new cash cow of MMA.....what does UFC do then? They couldn't sign Fedor, they couldn't sign Overeem.....I mean do you want the best to fight the best or what?
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
I think we can get from this fight that 9/10 if you put a well rounded smart MMA fighter against a boxer in a fight the MMA fighter is going to win they have to much in there arsenal especially if there smart they can just take the boxer down like we saw with Couture vs Toney!
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mattboxingfan
I think we can get from this fight that 9/10 if you put a well rounded smart MMA fighter against a boxer in a fight the MMA fighter is going to win they have to much in there arsenal especially if there smart they can just take the boxer down like we saw with Couture vs Toney!
It's a simple matter of rules...boxers fight within more rules and MMA fighters fight with less restrictions. It's because boxing is a SPECIFIC martial art and MMA is supposedly all of them mixed together.
There's nothing wrong with either sport, but don't pit them against each other because #1 There is no common ground #2 They are two different sports.
I personally do not like MMA, but I can tolerate it as a sport....the fans on the other hand :rolleyes: . I can watch MMA and appreciate it for what it is, but I don't consider myself a fan of it.
-
Re: James Toney v Randy Couture
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
luvfightgame
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.
I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.
They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.
Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.
BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.
Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.
You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.
Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?
I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.
I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.
We'll agree to disagree.
Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. What are you, a travelling pollster? Why are you travelling the world conducting surveys and who are you asking? Obviously MMA is growing rapidly in Asia and South America, and everywhere else as evidenced by the fact that fighters are now entering the Octagon from countries in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia etc.
It's growing rapidly. Sure a fight in the UFC between two Americans isn't going to be as big in Japan as a boxing fight between the top two Japanese boxers but that isn't really a fair comparison.
The reason MMA is growing so fast is because it is a more complete sport than boxing, it's real fighting, and more practically useful in real life. The baddest MMA star vs the baddest boxer in a real fight is at least 8 times out of 10 going to be won by the MMA star. That's appealing for the public, and also for young kids growing up who want to learn how to fight.
