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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Complete and utter laughable codswollop.
Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.
All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.
What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?
So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.
I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (
BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
Junior Jones was past his prime when he fought Paul Ingle though Fenster, his legs were gone and he only just about got past Richard Evatt beforehand. Junior Jones in his prime the one that defeated MAB x2, Orlando Canizalez, John Michael Johnson, Jorge Eliecer Julio. Around that time he was special fighter, its only his chin that let him down and inconsistency.
As for Kennedy McKinney he was just as talented as Junior Jones, he seemed to go down hill pretty quickly i heard it was from drugs. Which is a shame considering how great he looked against Welcome Ncita, MAB, Paul Banke.
I tell you there is one Featherweight Naseem Hamed didn't fight, who i would of loved to have seen him fight and thats Luisito Espinosa. Also a fight with Alejandro Gonzalez would of been entertaining aswell.
Yeah yeah, you don't have to tell me he was past his best, I saw all those fights live.
Jones was KO'd by McKinney on the Naz-Kelley undercard. McKinney was done by Espinosa. Espinosa lost to Soto. Gonzalez lost to Medina.
All these guys LOST during Naz's pomp to his VICTIMS. So none can be called "elite" using VD's argument.
Well i don't know all the history considering i was young, but im pretty sure Luisito Espinosa vs Naseem Hamed could of happened at some point. Luisito Espinosa had a nice little run at Featherweight, destroying two highly regarded fighters in Kennedy McKinney, Alejando Gonzalez.
Also the two wins over Manuel Medina, Naseem Hamed chose to fight Manuel Medina rather than Luisito Espinosa.
I've seen quite a few Luisito Espinosa fights, and he was pretty good at one point. With a hell of a left hook, he would of been dangerous fight for Naseem Hamed.
Had the fight of taken place between 1995-1998.
Im not saying anyone avoided anyone, you asked an elite Featherweight Naseem Hamed could of fought. And he could of fought Luisito Espinosa between 1995-1998.
Espinosa could have got a fight with Naz if he hadn't lost his mandatory to Soto in 1999. Obviously Naz fought the winner. During 95 and 98 Naz beat Johnson, Kelley and Vazquez. Is Espinosa rated any higher than those fighters?
Naz would get no credit for beating Espinosa - using VD's argument.
Well Luisito Espinosa did beat Cesar Soto in there 1st meeting, i think his prime was pretty short. And he aged quickly because after the Cesar Soto loss he achieved next to nothing.
I love Kevin Kelley's fighting style, but im not sure how high he was rated at that time. I know it was a big fight because it was Naseem Hamed's 1st fight in the USA. But Kevin Kelley did take a bit of a hammering off Alejandro Gonzalez.
And he had some real up and downers vs Gainer 1, Rivera, and a dull draw with Bones Adams. I would of thought at that time Luisito Espinosa would of been seen as a bigger threat than Kevin Kelley.
Just purely off his demolition job on Kennedy McKinney which was on HBO right ? and his win over Alejandro Gonzalez who was rated quite high at that time.
As for Wilfredo Vasquez i'd really put him in the same class as Luisito Espinosa.
As for Tom Johnson i thought he was seen as shot at that time Fenster ? or atleast past his prime, still a good win for Naseem Hamed because Tom Johnson did have a nice little run.
Again im not saying he should of fought Luisito Espinosa, i've got no problem that he fought Vasquez, Johnson, Kelley, its just personally a fight i would of liked to have seen.
And considering you asked the question i thought, i'd throw that name into the mix.
Also a fight with Alejandro Gonzalez would of been interesting, but Alejandro Gonzalez moved up too fast too Lightweight. When Naseem Hamed was just breaking into top level.
Naseem Hamed also could of fought Freddie Norwood, but Freddie Norwood had an ugly style. And style wise i would of hated to have seen it, but still another name he could of possibility fought.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Espinosa lost to Soto 1999 prior to that Hamed won his WBO World Featherweight title reigns from 1995 to 2001 likewise Espinosa won his second weight title the WBC World Featherweight title reigning from 1995 to 1999 eitherway its intriguing match up between the year 1996-1998 for both.
Alejandro Gonzales is also a topnotch on the feathers on that time wins over Kelly, Soto and Espinosa winning by k.o. In rematch Espinosa regain himself also by winning also by k.o.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Complete and utter laughable codswollop.
Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.
All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.
What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?
So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.
I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (
BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
Junior Jones was past his prime when he fought Paul Ingle though Fenster, his legs were gone and he only just about got past Richard Evatt beforehand. Junior Jones in his prime the one that defeated MAB x2, Orlando Canizalez, John Michael Johnson, Jorge Eliecer Julio. Around that time he was special fighter, its only his chin that let him down and inconsistency.
As for Kennedy McKinney he was just as talented as Junior Jones, he seemed to go down hill pretty quickly i heard it was from drugs. Which is a shame considering how great he looked against Welcome Ncita, MAB, Paul Banke.
I tell you there is one Featherweight Naseem Hamed didn't fight, who i would of loved to have seen him fight and thats Luisito Espinosa. Also a fight with Alejandro Gonzalez would of been entertaining aswell.
Yeah yeah, you don't have to tell me he was past his best, I saw all those fights live.
Jones was KO'd by McKinney on the Naz-Kelley undercard. McKinney was done by Espinosa. Espinosa lost to Soto. Gonzalez lost to Medina.
All these guys LOST during Naz's pomp to his VICTIMS. So none can be called "elite" using VD's argument.
Well i don't know all the history considering i was young, but im pretty sure Luisito Espinosa vs Naseem Hamed could of happened at some point. Luisito Espinosa had a nice little run at Featherweight, destroying two highly regarded fighters in Kennedy McKinney, Alejando Gonzalez.
Also the two wins over Manuel Medina, Naseem Hamed chose to fight Manuel Medina rather than Luisito Espinosa.
I've seen quite a few Luisito Espinosa fights, and he was pretty good at one point. With a hell of a left hook, he would of been dangerous fight for Naseem Hamed.
Had the fight of taken place between 1995-1998.
Im not saying anyone avoided anyone, you asked an elite Featherweight Naseem Hamed could of fought. And he could of fought Luisito Espinosa between 1995-1998.
Espinosa could have got a fight with Naz if he hadn't lost his mandatory to Soto in 1999. Obviously Naz fought the winner. During 95 and 98 Naz beat Johnson, Kelley and Vazquez. Is Espinosa rated any higher than those fighters?
Naz would get no credit for beating Espinosa - using VD's argument.
Well Luisito Espinosa did beat Cesar Soto in there 1st meeting, i think his prime was pretty short. And he aged quickly because after the Cesar Soto loss he achieved next to nothing.
I love Kevin Kelley's fighting style, but im not sure how high he was rated at that time. I know it was a big fight because it was Naseem Hamed's 1st fight in the USA. But Kevin Kelley did take a bit of a hammering off Alejandro Gonzalez.
And he had some real up and downers vs Gainer 1, Rivera, and a dull draw with Bones Adams. I would of thought at that time Luisito Espinosa would of been seen as a bigger threat than Kevin Kelley.
Just purely off his demolition job on Kennedy McKinney which was on HBO right ? and his win over Alejandro Gonzalez who was rated quite high at that time.
As for Wilfredo Vasquez i'd really put him in the same class as Luisito Espinosa.
As for Tom Johnson i thought he was seen as shot at that time Fenster ? or atleast past his prime, still a good win for Naseem Hamed because Tom Johnson did have a nice little run.
Again im not saying he should of fought Luisito Espinosa, i've got no problem that he fought Vasquez, Johnson, Kelley, its just personally a fight i would of liked to have seen.
And considering you asked the question i thought, i'd throw that name into the mix.
Also a fight with Alejandro Gonzalez would of been interesting, but Alejandro Gonzalez moved up too fast too Lightweight. When Naseem Hamed was just breaking into top level.
Naseem Hamed also could of fought Freddie Norwood, but Freddie Norwood had an ugly style. And style wise i would of hated to have seen it, but still another name he could of possibility fought.
I agree they would have been decent opponents for Naz, but none are considered "great" fighters, they are less famous than plenty of other Naz victims, so wouldn't have enhanced his current standing.
They are certainly not "elite" using VD's definition ;)
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Complete and utter laughable codswollop.
Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.
All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.
What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?
So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.
I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (
BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? :LOLATYOU: You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. :vd: You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.
You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? :rofmaoal: Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Complete and utter laughable codswollop.
Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.
All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.
What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?
So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.
I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (
BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? :LOLATYOU: You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. :vd: You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.
You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? :rofmaoal: Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.
Your utter foolishness knows no bounds.
Laughing smileys aren't fooling anyone. You're now panicking so badly that you are claiming i've said things I clearly have not. You still haven't named an elite/prime featherweight Naz ducked and you produce zero evidence to back up your ill-informed opinions.
So here's another little quiz. I've made it easy for you. Yes or no answers. Ready?
1. I said a "world" title win and a top 10 Ring ranking qualifies you as an elite featherweight during Naz's reign. Medina was ranked in the top ten throughout the late 90s and also won a "world" title after Naz beat him. Is that a lie?
2. Soto was the WBC champion and held a top ten Ring ranking when Naz beat him. Is that a lie?
3. Marquez turned down a chance to fight Naz in 2000. Marquez himself said it. Beristain himself said it. Is that a lie?
And finally, i'll give you one more chance to redeem yourself, for the fifth/sixth time, now pay attention - name an ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME operating in the featherweight divison that Naz ducked?
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Awesome stuff really. I thought I was wordy ha. Might need to do this from home but I have to know Fenster. Are you with a straight face and sober mind calling Manuel medina and Cesar Soto elite fighters ???
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Awesome stuff really. I thought I was wordy ha. Might need to do this from home but I have to know Fenster. Are you with a straight face and sober mind calling Manuel medina and Cesar Soto elite fighters ???
You guys seem to be ignoring the word FEATHERWEIGHT.
There is a difference between being regarded as elite in the entire world of boxing and elite in your respective division.
If a fighter occupies an overall top ten ranking and/or wins a "world" title in a particular division, that would class him among the elite (best) of that weight-class. No?
Come on guys... :D
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Complete and utter laughable codswollop.
Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.
All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.
What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?
So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.
I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (
BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? :LOLATYOU: You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. :vd: You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.
You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? :rofmaoal: Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.
This has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.
How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?
IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.
Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.
:)
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Complete and utter laughable codswollop.
Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.
All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.
What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?
So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.
I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (
BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? :LOLATYOU: You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. :vd: You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.
You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? :rofmaoal: Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.
This has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.
How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?
IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.
Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.
:)
Calm down mate. It's just a fun debate.
Never once have I "bad-mouthed" Marquez. I have called him an all-time great many times on this thread. I haven't said the same about Naz once. The debate is about Marquez in Naz's era.
The Steward reference was ignored because there is no quote. Where is the evidence? VD has already lied, well got loads of things wrong, in this thread pertaining to events at the time. What about my quotes from Marquez himself, Berstain (that's his trainer/manager) and Antonio Curtis (former matchmaker)? Were they answered?
(For the record - certain commentators often repeat "Naz ducked Marquez" during Marquez fights ;))
I deal in fact not hearsay.
I too cheered for Barrera against the Naz fella.
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Complete and utter laughable codswollop.
Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.
All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.
What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?
So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.
I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (
BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? :LOLATYOU: You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. :vd: You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.
You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? :rofmaoal: Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.
This has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.
How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?
IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.
Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.
:)
Calm down mate. It's just a fun debate.
Never once have I "bad-mouthed" Marquez. I have called him an all-time great many times on this thread. I haven't said the same about Naz once. The debate is about Marquez in Naz's era.
The Steward reference was ignored because there is no quote. Where is the evidence? VD has already lied, well got loads of things wrong, in this thread pertaining to events at the time. What about my quotes from Marquez himself, Berstain (that's his trainer/manager) and Antonio Curtis (former matchmaker)? Were they answered?
(For the record - certain commentators often repeat "Naz ducked Marquez" during Marquez fights ;))
I deal in fact not hearsay.
I too cheered for Barrera against the Naz fella.
Ok..... carry on, then.
:)
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Hamed became the lineal Featherweight champion when he beat Wilfredo Vazquez. Cuz that's how the lineal tree goes. So there was never no need to fight Cesar Soto. Unless it was to duck Marquez. He didn't care about his belt or unifying. If he did he would of never gave up the IBF title. And would of made sure Vazquez some how would of kept his WBA title. Or at least gone after who ever had the WBA title at the time. That's what unifying means. Collecting all belts. It wasn't to be considered the man at featherweight. Cuz he got that distinction when he beat Vazquez. Learn the difference. Fighting Soto was for one reason. And one reason only. To avoid fighting Marquez. Facts don't lie. Hamed ducked Marquez. Ducking was his nature. I'll prove it. Name me an elite fighter Hamed beat that was in his prime. Just one. And I said elite. So save your Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough. Neither was ever elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
i know hamed was a great, great showman but i also think he was one of the biggest hype jobs in boxing! sure he could punch but what happened when he went against an in his prime barrera? he got exposed as a one dimensional fighter with really little boxing skills. the fact that he was so awkward was a big advantage against many of his opponents who found it hard to adjust to his style. but fighters like barrera did expose him and marquez would have done the same. there is no comparison between marquez' skills and hamed's lack of skills. marquez wound win this one going away by UD or late TKO.
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
milmascaras1
i know hamed was a great, great showman but i also think he was one of the biggest hype jobs in boxing! sure he could punch but what happened when he went against an in his prime barrera? he got exposed as a one dimensional fighter with really little boxing skills. the fact that he was so awkward was a big advantage against many of his opponents who found it hard to adjust to his style. but fighters like barrera did expose him and marquez would have done the same. there is no comparison between marquez' skills and hamed's lack of skills. marquez wound win this one going away by UD or late TKO.
That wasn't even a prime Barrera that clowned him. A prime Marco would of stopped him
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Hamed became the lineal Featherweight champion when he beat Wilfredo Vazquez. Cuz that's how the lineal tree goes. So there was never no need to fight Cesar Soto. Unless it was to duck Marquez. He didn't care about his belt or unifying. If he did he would of never gave up the IBF title. And would of made sure Vazquez some how would of kept his WBA title. Or at least gone after who ever had the WBA title at the time. That's what unifying means. Collecting all belts. It wasn't to be considered the man at featherweight. Cuz he got that distinction when he beat Vazquez. Learn the difference. Fighting Soto was for one reason. And one reason only. To avoid fighting Marquez. Facts don't lie. Hamed ducked Marquez. Ducking was his nature. I'll prove it. Name me an elite fighter Hamed beat that was in his prime. Just one. And I said elite. So save your Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough. Neither was ever elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
You haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
milmascaras1
i know hamed was a great, great showman but i also think he was one of the biggest hype jobs in boxing! sure he could punch but what happened when he went against an in his prime barrera? he got exposed as a one dimensional fighter with really little boxing skills. the fact that he was so awkward was a big advantage against many of his opponents who found it hard to adjust to his style. but fighters like barrera did expose him and marquez would have done the same. there is no comparison between marquez' skills and hamed's lack of skills. marquez wound win this one going away by UD or late TKO.
That wasn't even a prime Barrera that clowned him. A prime Marco would of stopped him
Manny Steward says Naz would have knocked out Barrera inside three rounds if he had trained properly.
Manny Steward also says Morales would have been an easy fight for Naz. He says Morales upright style, poor footwork and the fact he will try and trade made him made for Naz.
;)
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Well..... you got ME convinced, Fen. Where do I send my donations for Naz's 300-foot golden statue?
Hey, wait.... I'm working on my donation right now.
:spunk:
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
The greatest duck in history?
Hhhmmmm
:thinking2:
I don't know there's been a handful that quickly stand out...
http://willfulcaboose.files.wordpres...01-film-b1.jpg
http://tomellard.com/wp/wp-content/u...ck-posters.jpg
Scrooge McDuck was certainly the wealthiest...
http://www.writingthepine.com/wp-con...gold-coins.png
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Hamed became the lineal Featherweight champion when he beat Wilfredo Vazquez. Cuz that's how the lineal tree goes. So there was never no need to fight Cesar Soto. Unless it was to duck Marquez. He didn't care about his belt or unifying. If he did he would of never gave up the IBF title. And would of made sure Vazquez some how would of kept his WBA title. Or at least gone after who ever had the WBA title at the time. That's what unifying means. Collecting all belts. It wasn't to be considered the man at featherweight. Cuz he got that distinction when he beat Vazquez. Learn the difference. Fighting Soto was for one reason. And one reason only. To avoid fighting Marquez. Facts don't lie. Hamed ducked Marquez. Ducking was his nature. I'll prove it. Name me an elite fighter Hamed beat that was in his prime. Just one. And I said elite. So save your Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough. Neither was ever elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
You haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
To bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Hamed became the lineal Featherweight champion when he beat Wilfredo Vazquez. Cuz that's how the lineal tree goes. So there was never no need to fight Cesar Soto. Unless it was to duck Marquez. He didn't care about his belt or unifying. If he did he would of never gave up the IBF title. And would of made sure Vazquez some how would of kept his WBA title. Or at least gone after who ever had the WBA title at the time. That's what unifying means. Collecting all belts. It wasn't to be considered the man at featherweight. Cuz he got that distinction when he beat Vazquez. Learn the difference. Fighting Soto was for one reason. And one reason only. To avoid fighting Marquez. Facts don't lie. Hamed ducked Marquez. Ducking was his nature. I'll prove it. Name me an elite fighter Hamed beat that was in his prime. Just one. And I said elite. So save your Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough. Neither was ever elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
You haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
To bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
Prime is debatable.
The only bombproof unquestionable fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best most decorated featherweights of his day and ducked nobody. Fact.
Whoomp there it is
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
great thread took me back to the happy 90's when the internet was full of guestbooks... cheers guys great debate ;)
one thing that really puzzles me... if an elite fighter gets beaten in his prime would he be classed as an elite fighter after the loss and would that be classed as his prime :confused::confused::confused:
Jeff Lacy springs to mind for some reason ;D
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Hamed became the lineal Featherweight champion when he beat Wilfredo Vazquez. Cuz that's how the lineal tree goes. So there was never no need to fight Cesar Soto. Unless it was to duck Marquez. He didn't care about his belt or unifying. If he did he would of never gave up the IBF title. And would of made sure Vazquez some how would of kept his WBA title. Or at least gone after who ever had the WBA title at the time. That's what unifying means. Collecting all belts. It wasn't to be considered the man at featherweight. Cuz he got that distinction when he beat Vazquez. Learn the difference. Fighting Soto was for one reason. And one reason only. To avoid fighting Marquez. Facts don't lie. Hamed ducked Marquez. Ducking was his nature. I'll prove it. Name me an elite fighter Hamed beat that was in his prime. Just one. And I said elite. So save your Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough. Neither was ever elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
You haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
To bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
Prime is debatable.
The only bombproof unquestionable fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best most decorated featherweights of his day and ducked nobody. Fact.
Whoomp there it is
Yeah ok. Going by your analogy and the fact that he beat O'Neil Bell, Wayne Braithwaite, Dale Brown and Virgil Hill (the "elite" Cruiserweights at that time) Hamed's legacy is pretty much the same as that of Jean Marc Mormeck. :lolhaha: And that's a fact
Game. Set. Match. Point
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Hamed became the lineal Featherweight champion when he beat Wilfredo Vazquez. Cuz that's how the lineal tree goes. So there was never no need to fight Cesar Soto. Unless it was to duck Marquez. He didn't care about his belt or unifying. If he did he would of never gave up the IBF title. And would of made sure Vazquez some how would of kept his WBA title. Or at least gone after who ever had the WBA title at the time. That's what unifying means. Collecting all belts. It wasn't to be considered the man at featherweight. Cuz he got that distinction when he beat Vazquez. Learn the difference. Fighting Soto was for one reason. And one reason only. To avoid fighting Marquez. Facts don't lie. Hamed ducked Marquez. Ducking was his nature. I'll prove it. Name me an elite fighter Hamed beat that was in his prime. Just one. And I said elite. So save your Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough. Neither was ever elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
You haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
To bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
Prime is debatable.
The only bombproof unquestionable fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best most decorated featherweights of his day and ducked nobody. Fact.
Whoomp there it is
Yeah ok. Going by your analogy and the fact that he beat O'Neil Bell, Wayne Braithwaite, Dale Brown and Virgil Hill (the "elite" Cruiserweights at that time) Hamed's legacy is pretty much the same as that of Jean Marc Mormeck. :lolhaha: And that's a fact
Game. Set. Match. Point
An utterly foolish comparison.
Mormeck never reigned unbeaten with all the pieces intact. He was also KO'd twice. It took an all-time great to disable Naz.
Whoomp there it is
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
"Disable" being the operative word here.
:)
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Hamed became the lineal Featherweight champion when he beat Wilfredo Vazquez. Cuz that's how the lineal tree goes. So there was never no need to fight Cesar Soto. Unless it was to duck Marquez. He didn't care about his belt or unifying. If he did he would of never gave up the IBF title. And would of made sure Vazquez some how would of kept his WBA title. Or at least gone after who ever had the WBA title at the time. That's what unifying means. Collecting all belts. It wasn't to be considered the man at featherweight. Cuz he got that distinction when he beat Vazquez. Learn the difference. Fighting Soto was for one reason. And one reason only. To avoid fighting Marquez. Facts don't lie. Hamed ducked Marquez. Ducking was his nature. I'll prove it. Name me an elite fighter Hamed beat that was in his prime. Just one. And I said elite. So save your Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough. Neither was ever elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
You haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
To bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
Prime is debatable.
The only bombproof unquestionable fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best most decorated featherweights of his day and ducked nobody. Fact.
Whoomp there it is
Yeah ok. Going by your analogy and the fact that he beat O'Neil Bell, Wayne Braithwaite, Dale Brown and Virgil Hill (the "elite" Cruiserweights at that time) Hamed's legacy is pretty much the same as that of Jean Marc Mormeck. :lolhaha: And that's a fact
Game. Set. Match. Point
An utterly foolish comparison.
Mormeck never reigned unbeaten with all the pieces intact. He was also KO'd twice.
It took an all-time great to disable Naz.
Whoomp there it is
The only All Time Great he ever faced.
Damn! You got knocked the fuck out
-
Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Hamed became the lineal Featherweight champion when he beat Wilfredo Vazquez. Cuz that's how the lineal tree goes. So there was never no need to fight Cesar Soto. Unless it was to duck Marquez. He didn't care about his belt or unifying. If he did he would of never gave up the IBF title. And would of made sure Vazquez some how would of kept his WBA title. Or at least gone after who ever had the WBA title at the time. That's what unifying means. Collecting all belts. It wasn't to be considered the man at featherweight. Cuz he got that distinction when he beat Vazquez. Learn the difference. Fighting Soto was for one reason. And one reason only. To avoid fighting Marquez. Facts don't lie. Hamed ducked Marquez. Ducking was his nature. I'll prove it. Name me an elite fighter Hamed beat that was in his prime. Just one. And I said elite. So save your Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough. Neither was ever elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.
Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.
I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
I've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
You haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
To bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
Prime is debatable.
The only bombproof unquestionable fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best most decorated featherweights of his day and ducked nobody. Fact.
Whoomp there it is
Yeah ok. Going by your analogy and the fact that he beat O'Neil Bell, Wayne Braithwaite, Dale Brown and Virgil Hill (the "elite" Cruiserweights at that time) Hamed's legacy is pretty much the same as that of Jean Marc Mormeck. :lolhaha: And that's a fact
Game. Set. Match. Point
An utterly foolish comparison.
Mormeck never reigned unbeaten with all the pieces intact. He was also KO'd twice.
It took an all-time great to disable Naz.
Whoomp there it is
The only All Time Great he ever faced.
Damn! You got knocked the fuck out
I never once disputed Naz lost to the only all-time great he faced.
The only thing that got knocked the fuck out was your reading comprehension. Fact.
Whoomp there it is
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Are you to still going at it? VD you are right and Fenster is wrong. fact.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Are you to still going at it? VD you are right and Fenster is wrong. fact.
This is over.
And you thought VD was right? :LOLATYOU:
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Are you to still going at it? VD you are right and Fenster is wrong. fact.
This is over.
And you thought VD was right? :LOLATYOU:
Sometimes he can be.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Are you to still going at it? VD you are right and Fenster is wrong. fact.
Everybody could see that. But boy just has a hard time accepting reality. I'll let him have the last word in and let him think he won.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
simply put, hamed was a true blue baby-blue hype job. the only great fighter he ever fought, barrera, he got totally taken to school and (graduated with honors). marquez would have probably done a more masterful job than barrera because he was more of a counterpuncher than barrera. and please don't forget that erik morales wanted a piece of that action and would have tapped that a-- as well. in boxing and like miguel vazquez showed last night, you need more than a punch to be considered great. what's the saying? offense wins fights but defense wins championships, especially at the highest levels?
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
'Heard JMM avoided EM too (more like turned down actually). Juan Manuel Marquez: Returning From The Dead
The fight would've been sweet.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
where did you hear this crapola that jmm avoided erik morales? that is a bunch of bullshit! when jmm was coming up the featherweight ranks, it was both barrera and morales who were avoiding jmm. next time get your facts straight!
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
milmascaras1
where did you hear this crapola that jmm avoided erik morales? that is a bunch of bullshit! when jmm was coming up the featherweight ranks, it was both barrera and morales who were avoiding jmm. next time get your facts straight!
lol. Those guys beat the best in the world but avoided someone who got owned by Chris John and Norwood? Yeah right
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
game,
marquez got owned by chris john and norwood? shows how little you know about boxing. with the exception of the mayweather fight, it can be seriously argued that marquez could be undefeated if not for stupid politics in boxing.
and yes, it's a fact, morales and barrera did duck marquez when they were at super bantam and featherweight. so sorry for the bad news!
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
milmascaras1
game,
marquez got owned by chris john and norwood? shows how little you know about boxing. with the exception of the mayweather fight, it can be seriously argued that marquez could be undefeated if not for stupid politics in boxing.
and yes, it's a fact, morales and barrera did duck marquez when they were at super bantam and featherweight. so sorry for the bad news!
Yeah you keep believing that if it helps you sleep at night. Thats total rubbish and only a fool would say summat like that. Marquez is done. He wont even go anywhere near Khan. Says it all.
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Re: Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GAME
Quote:
Originally Posted by
milmascaras1
game,
marquez got owned by chris john and norwood? shows how little you know about boxing. with the exception of the mayweather fight, it can be seriously argued that marquez could be undefeated if not for stupid politics in boxing.
and yes, it's a fact, morales and barrera did duck marquez when they were at super bantam and featherweight. so sorry for the bad news!
Yeah you keep believing that if it helps you sleep at night. Thats total rubbish and only a fool would say summat like that. Marquez is done. He wont even go anywhere near Khan. Says it all.
What says it all is Con is more likely to face DeMarcus Corley than he is Marcos Maidana
