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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.
They were moved to the day before in the television era of Ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.
It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.
Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but Manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.
I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.
Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.
Hatton and Clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.
It's such an overblown objection.
The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was Cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.
Imagine this scenario. Roy Jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting John Ruiz he fights Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.
So Lewis or Vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.
Then Roy Jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.
According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating John Ruiz, because Ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.
It really is that absurd.
mate you are funny
they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?
so fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? so all is equal
if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?
it only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men
i dont know how to say it any clearer dude
Once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.
Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring Margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.
Catchweights are entirely within the rules so Manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is Floyd Mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.
no dude you are confused
you said to make it fair thats what they should do
i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules
read back
and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect
if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at
i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post :)
Yes, but it's
me arguing for same day weigh in's not Manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.
People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.
A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.
Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.
Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with Manny, Ricardo Mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with Sugar Shane.
In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.
It's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against Margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.
Had it not been a catchweight Margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and Manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.
If you still cannot see the argument being made here then I give up.
(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we? :D
i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree
the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules
i think that is pretty outrageous
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.
They were moved to the day before in the television era of Ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.
It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.
Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but Manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.
I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.
Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.
Hatton and Clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.
It's such an overblown objection.
The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was Cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.
Imagine this scenario. Roy Jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting John Ruiz he fights Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.
So Lewis or Vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.
Then Roy Jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.
According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating John Ruiz, because Ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.
It really is that absurd.
mate you are funny
they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?
so fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? so all is equal
if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?
it only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men
i dont know how to say it any clearer dude
Once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.
Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring Margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.
Catchweights are entirely within the rules so Manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is Floyd Mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.
no dude you are confused
you said to make it fair thats what they should do
i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules
read back
and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect
if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at
i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post :)
Yes, but it's
me arguing for same day weigh in's not Manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.
People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.
A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.
Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.
Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with Manny, Ricardo Mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with Sugar Shane.
In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.
It's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against Margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.
Had it not been a catchweight Margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and Manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.
If you still cannot see the argument being made here then I give up.
(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we? :D
i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree
the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules
i think that is pretty outrageous
What rules has he bent? Catchweights are a legal part of boxing and have been for decades?
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilbo
i'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.
They were moved to the day before in the television era of ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.
It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.
Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.
I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.
Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.
Hatton and clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.
It's such an overblown objection.
The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.
Imagine this scenario. Roy jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting john ruiz he fights lennox lewis or vitali klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.
So lewis or vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.
Then roy jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.
According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating john ruiz, because ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.
It really is that absurd.
mate you are funny
they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?
So fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? So all is equal
if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?
It only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men
i dont know how to say it any clearer dude
once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.
Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.
Catchweights are entirely within the rules so manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is floyd mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.
no dude you are confused
you said to make it fair thats what they should do
i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules
read back
and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect
if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at
i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post :)
yes, but it's
me arguing for same day weigh in's not manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.
People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.
A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.
Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.
Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with manny, ricardo mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with sugar shane.
In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.
it's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.
had it not been a catchweight margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.
If you still cannot see the argument being made here then i give up.
(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we? :d
i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree
the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules
i think that is pretty outrageous
what rules has he bent? Catchweights are a legal part of boxing and have been for decades?
hes not bent any rules, you reckon he should be able to tho because he is a legend
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilbo
i'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.
They were moved to the day before in the television era of ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.
It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.
Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.
I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.
Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.
Hatton and clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.
It's such an overblown objection.
The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.
Imagine this scenario. Roy jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting john ruiz he fights lennox lewis or vitali klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.
So lewis or vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.
Then roy jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.
According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating john ruiz, because ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.
It really is that absurd.
mate you are funny
they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?
So fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? So all is equal
if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?
It only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men
i dont know how to say it any clearer dude
once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.
Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.
Catchweights are entirely within the rules so manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is floyd mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.
no dude you are confused
you said to make it fair thats what they should do
i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules
read back
and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect
if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at
i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post :)
yes, but it's
me arguing for same day weigh in's not manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.
People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.
A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.
Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.
Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with manny, ricardo mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with sugar shane.
In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.
it's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.
had it not been a catchweight margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.
If you still cannot see the argument being made here then i give up.
(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we? :d
i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree
the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules
i think that is pretty outrageous
what rules has he bent? Catchweights are a legal part of boxing and have been for decades?
hes not bent any rules, you reckon he should be able to tho because he is a legend
Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.
They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - boxing - ESPN
I guess all these guys too have broken rules in boxing, because they too have fought at catchweights.
Other notable catchweights not mentioned.
Chavez-Whitaker at 145 pounds and the mythical p4p title.
Hopkins-Pavlik and Hopkins-Wright at 170.
Mayweather-Marquez at 144.
Pavlik-Taylor at 166.
I guess all of these guys were breaking the rules of boxing.;)
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - boxing - ESPN
I guess all these guys too have broken rules in boxing, because they too have fought at catchweights.
Other notable catchweights not mentioned.
Chavez-Whitaker at 145 pounds and the mythical p4p title.
Hopkins-Pavlik and Hopkins-Wright at 170.
Mayweather-Marquez at 144.
Pavlik-Taylor at 166.
I guess all of these guys were breaking the rules of boxing.;)
Not often you and I agree
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.
They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - boxing - ESPN
I guess all these guys too have broken rules in boxing, because they too have fought at catchweights.
Other notable catchweights not mentioned.
Chavez-Whitaker at 145 pounds and the mythical p4p title.
Hopkins-Pavlik and Hopkins-Wright at 170.
Mayweather-Marquez at 144.
Pavlik-Taylor at 166.
I guess all of these guys were breaking the rules of boxing.;)
Not often you and I agree
I just thought it was funny that catchweights were considered to be breaking the rules of boxing as considered by some, when it's been done since the early 20th century as stated in that ESPN article. So catchweights have been around for more than 100 years and possibly even before that.
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.
They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
Well I would answer no emphatically.
First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.
Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised the almost 6ft tall Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!
Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Bilbo you are delusional. And I doubt you've ever had to make a weight and then do physical activity in your life.
Why would manny insist on these catch weights rather than fighting these guys at their optimum weight. It's a no brainer.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.
They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
Well I would answer no emphatically.
First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.
Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!
Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.
do you think that mannys welterweight and light middleweight titles are as legitamate as others who havent made any changes to the weight requirements?
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.
Cotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.
They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
Well I would answer no emphatically.
First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.
Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!
Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.
do you think that mannys welterweight and light middleweight titles are as legitamate as others who havent made any changes to the weight requirements?
Great question and the answer is manny shouldn't even have those titles. What next? winning the heavyweight title against a blown up flyweight in 153 pound catchweight fight?
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.
They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
Well I would answer no emphatically.
First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.
Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!
Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.
do you think that mannys welterweight and light middleweight titles are as legitamate as others who havent made any changes to the weight requirements?
I don't personally care less about belts. Most of the belts are completely devalued and have a nobody as the title holder.
But do I think having Manny Pacquaio as a world champ at 154 is more credible than the Contender club fighter K9 Bundrage, who currently holds the IBF strap, or Jan Zevek that well known welterweight champ, then absolutely I do.
The other fighters may not have won their belts at a catchweight, but they oftentimes just picked them up out of a garbage bin or had to fight another journeyman to 'win' it. At least Manny is fighting legit, established, world class championship caliber fighters.
I'd always rather a guy like Manny is given a belt over the likes of Zavek, Bundrage, Drews, N'Dou, Valuev. Rees etc. Those guys being world champs is far more a knock to the sport than the most exciting and explosive fighter of our era having a strap despite his opponent conceding the right to weigh a 1lb more.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.
Cotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156? Hardly a moan
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.
Cotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear a excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
Cuz manny put the deal on the table. Instead of challenge Oscar at 154 like mayweather did he said 'no it's gotta be 147.' Instead of challenge cotto at 147 like all of cotto's previous opponants have he said no it's gotta be 145 (even though he fought oscar and clottey at 147) Instead of fight Margarito at 154 which is the light middleweight limit that that title should be fought at. 154 the weight that margarito went up to fight daniel santos at.
Pacquiao and his demands. His opponants are daft for bowing to them.... But all they're thinking is pay day.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.
Cotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear a excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
C
uz manny put the deal on the table. Instead of challenge Oscar at 154 like mayweather did he said 'no it's gotta be 147.' Instead of challenge cotto at 147 like all of cotto's previous opponants have he said no it's gotta be 145 (even though he fought oscar and clottey at 147) Instead of fight Margarito at 154 which is the light middleweight limit that that title should be fought at. 154 the weight that margarito went up to fight daniel santos at.
Pacquiao and his demands. His opponants are daft for bowing to them.... But all they're thinking is pay day.
Manny was a superfeatherweight when they started negotioting this. Oscar was a junior middleweight. It's amazin how you are going back to retrospectively make it look like Manny was picking on poor Oscar.
In a way it's a huge backhanded compliment as to how good you think Manny must be.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.
Cotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear a excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
Cuz manny put the deal on the table. Instead of challenge Oscar at 154 like mayweather did he said 'no it's gotta be 147.' Instead of challenge cotto at 147 like all of cotto's previous opponants have he said no it's gotta be 145 (even though he fought oscar and clottey at 147) Instead of fight Margarito at 154 which is the light middleweight limit that that title should be fought at. 154 the weight that margarito went up to fight daniel santos at.
Pacquiao and his demands. His opponants are daft for bowing to them.... But all they're thinking is pay day.
It's hard to believe manny "forced" oscar to go to 147 while oscar held all the cards back then. As for cotto, do you honestly believe cotto drained himself to make 145 when just several months prior to that he went up against clottey at 146? The cotto/clottey fight was at 147 and he didn't even reach that limit. What makes you think he drained himself to go at 145? As for margarito, aside from his previous fight with Garcia, he's been fighting at the ww limit and he's been pretty much comfortable at that weight.
I think it all boils down to whether manny deserved the belts he got from cotto and margo. But in terms of the catchweight being an issue in the actual fight, who's to say it's why they lost? Didn't you just say they underestimated manny and overestimated their own potential? Hardly manny's fault. I see it as an equalizer to the weight advantage they had come fight night.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
When Williams made Martinez fight at 158, I personally brought up in threads, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall you ever getting on Williams' case about it. Williams was the favorite going into that fight too if only by a hair. He made Martinez come down in weight because they thought Martinez was more effective at 160. The point was to fight him at a weight where he wasn't as effective.
Did you give Mayweather grief for signing to fight Marquez at 145 (at a catchweight) and then showing up weighing 147?
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arcanum26
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.
Cotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear a excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
Cuz manny put the deal on the table. Instead of challenge Oscar at 154 like mayweather did he said 'no it's gotta be 147.' Instead of challenge cotto at 147 like all of cotto's previous opponants have he said no it's gotta be 145 (even though he fought oscar and clottey at 147) Instead of fight Margarito at 154 which is the light middleweight limit that that title should be fought at. 154 the weight that margarito went up to fight daniel santos at.
Pacquiao and his demands. His opponants are daft for bowing to them.... But all they're thinking is pay day.
It's hard to believe manny "forced" oscar to go to 147 while oscar held all the cards back then. As for cotto, do you honestly believe cotto drained himself to make 145 when just several months prior to that he went up against clottey at 146? The cotto/clottey fight was at 147 and he didn't even reach that limit. What makes you think he drained himself to go at 145? As for margarito, aside from his previous fight with Garcia, he's been fighting at the ww limit and he's been pretty much comfortable at that weight.
I think it all boils down to whether manny deserved the belts he got from cotto and margo. But in terms of the catchweight being an issue in the actual fight, who's to say it's why they lost? Didn't you just say they underestimated manny and overestimated their own potential? Hardly manny's fault. I see it as an equalizer to the weight
advantage they had come fight night.
Agreed.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
Actually my point being that there was a major fuss about Pacquiao fights being at a catchweight while there weren't for others. And there were major fusses all over the place before Pacquiao even fought those guys and the outcome decided, there are threads that went for pages here on that and other boxing boards.
But guess what? They were barely a moan or whine when Williams-Martinez 2 or Pavlik-Taylor, Pavlik-Hopkins happened before or after the outcome.
Now that's what you call inconsistency. Like take a guy like Adamgb that went on and on and on about Cotto-Pacquiao before the fight took place, but not a peep out of the guy when other catchweight fights like say Marquez-Mayweather or Williams-Martinez. You can't single a guy out and then remain silent or give those guys passes.
Or even some people here say that catchweights for certain fighters are okay like Oscar-Hopkins but not okay for others like Pac-Cotto. Be consistent.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
Actually my point being that there was a major fuss about Pacquiao fights being at a catchweight while there weren't for others. And there were major fusses all over the place before Pacquiao even fought those guys and the outcome decided, there are threads that went for pages here on that and other boxing boards.
But guess what? They were barely a moan or whine when Williams-Martinez 2 or Pavlik-Taylor, Pavlik-Hopkins happened before or after the outcome.
Now that's what you call inconsistency. Like take a guy like Adamgb that went on and on and on about Cotto-Pacquiao before the fight took place, but not a peep out of the guy when other catchweight fights like say Marquez-Mayweather or Williams-Martinez. You can't single a guy out and then remain silent or give those guys passes.
Or even some people here say that catchweights for certain fighters are okay like Oscar-Hopkins but not okay for others like Pac-Cotto. Be consistent.
The only reason why people complain about catchweight is to discredit pac any possible way. Its the same people who always root against him. They have gone so low they even believe a crackheads accusation about Pac using PEDs. People will think or believe anything to discredit somebody they've never liked.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
The result isn't what matters because that's always in 20/20 hindsite. If Cotto had beat Pacquiao, he would have been still forced to make a lower weight, the nefarious reason behind the weight dropping was still there. Right? You are upset because of the reason behind having the catchweight, to have someone lose weight so that the fighter is less effective, and his opponent having an unfair advantage. Right? If that is the case, what Williams did with Martinez is just as bad because it was for that exact same reason.
In my opinion, the only fight Pacquiao had where I thought they maybe did that for that reason was the Cotto fight. Margarito was a career welterweight, 150 actually is probably his ideal weight. Pacquiao fought Hatton at Hatton's natural weight - 140, Mayweather made Hatton come up to 147. Pac met ODLH at a middle point, and don't forget, ODLH was heavily favored going into that fight. Clottey was at 147.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
The result isn't what matters because that's always in 20/20 hindsite. If Cotto had beat Pacquiao, he would have been still forced to make a lower weight, the nefarious reason behind the weight dropping was still there. Right? You are upset because of the reason behind having the catchweight, to have someone lose weight so that the fighter is less effective, and his opponent having an unfair advantage. Right? If that is the case, what Williams did with Martinez is just as bad because it was for that exact same reason.
In my opinion, the only fight Pacquiao had where I thought they maybe did that for that reason was the Cotto fight. Margarito was a career welterweight, 150 actually is probably his ideal weight. Pacquiao fought Hatton at Hatton's natural weight - 140, Mayweather made Hatton come up to 147. Pac met ODLH at a middle point, and don't forget, ODLH was heavily favored going into that fight. Clottey was at 147.
Exactly. Pac basically only made one fighter (Cotto) lose weight for him. Which was only 2 pounds.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
The result isn't what matters because that's always in 20/20 hindsite. If Cotto had beat Pacquiao, he would have been still forced to make a lower weight, the nefarious reason behind the weight dropping was still there. Right? You are upset because of the reason behind having the catchweight, to have someone lose weight so that the fighter is less effective, and his opponent having an unfair advantage. Right? If that is the case, what Williams did with Martinez is just as bad because it was for that exact same reason.
In my opinion, the only fight Pacquiao had where I thought they maybe did that for that reason was the Cotto fight. Margarito was a career welterweight, 150 actually is probably his ideal weight. Pacquiao fought Hatton at Hatton's natural weight - 140, Mayweather made Hatton come up to 147. Pac met ODLH at a middle point, and don't forget, ODLH was heavily favored going into that fight. Clottey was at 147.
Of course it matters who wins. That's the whole point of boxing. No ones going to make a fuss when a big guy comes down a couple of pounds and beats a little guy. Because it's expected. However when a big guy has to come down in weight and then looks and fights like a damn zombie, of course people are going to say something.
I don't need to discredit pacquiao because the FACTS speak for themselves.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
The result isn't what matters because that's always in 20/20 hindsite. If Cotto had beat Pacquiao, he would have been still forced to make a lower weight, the nefarious reason behind the weight dropping was still there. Right? You are upset because of the reason behind having the catchweight, to have someone lose weight so that the fighter is less effective, and his opponent having an unfair advantage. Right? If that is the case, what Williams did with Martinez is just as bad because it was for that exact same reason.
In my opinion, the only fight Pacquiao had where I thought they maybe did that for that reason was the Cotto fight. Margarito was a career welterweight, 150 actually is probably his ideal weight. Pacquiao fought Hatton at Hatton's natural weight - 140, Mayweather made Hatton come up to 147. Pac met ODLH at a middle point, and don't forget, ODLH was heavily favored going into that fight. Clottey was at 147.
Of course it matters who wins. That's the whole point of boxing. No ones going to make a fuss when a big guy comes down a couple of pounds and beats a little guy. Because it's expected. However when a big guy has to come down in weight and then looks and fights like a damn zombie, of course people are going to say something.
I don't need to discredit pacquiao because the FACTS speak for themselves.
Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. So in your OWN words, it's not usually a big deal for a fighter to come down a couple of pounds and still beat up the little guy, it's what you would expect.
But because Pacquiao beats them, then obviously this proves the exception where the loss of a pound was pivotal and turned the fight result on its head? :confused:
Not sure if you noticed but Manny has also fought Hatton, Clottey and David Diaz all in their chosen weight classes since moving up, and beat the snot out of every single one of them every bit as convincingly as the other guys.
The only fighter you could make a case for being weight drained was Oscar, and that WASN'T a catchweight fight.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
The result isn't what matters because that's always in 20/20 hindsite. If Cotto had beat Pacquiao, he would have been still forced to make a lower weight, the nefarious reason behind the weight dropping was still there. Right? You are upset because of the reason behind having the catchweight, to have someone lose weight so that the fighter is less effective, and his opponent having an unfair advantage. Right? If that is the case, what Williams did with Martinez is just as bad because it was for that exact same reason.
In my opinion, the only fight Pacquiao had where I thought they maybe did that for that reason was the Cotto fight. Margarito was a career welterweight, 150 actually is probably his ideal weight. Pacquiao fought Hatton at Hatton's natural weight - 140, Mayweather made Hatton come up to 147. Pac met ODLH at a middle point, and don't forget, ODLH was heavily favored going into that fight. Clottey was at 147.
Of course it matters who wins. That's the whole point of boxing. No ones going to make a fuss when a big guy comes down a couple of pounds and beats a little guy. Because it's expected. However when a big guy has to come down in weight and then looks and fights like a damn zombie, of course people are going to say something.
I don't need to discredit pacquiao because the FACTS speak for themselves.
What facts are we talking about here. Only thing you've been saying is highly subjective. That both cotto and margarito were weight drained/zombies etc. Both those guys weren't complaining about weight issues and they obviously weren't zombies.
As for ODLH, the guy had it coming. Now that's zombie. But lo and behold, you'd still blame it on pac "forcing" him to go down to 147.
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Guys. Easy on Hornfinger. He's about to cry. ;D
There's no point of arguing with him. The dude is a hater.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
:::PSL:::
Guys. Easy on Hornfinger. He's about to cry. ;D
There's no point of arguing with him. The dude is a hater.
Hornfigher is either Milmacas fag lover or his alt.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julius Rain
Quote:
Originally Posted by
:::PSL:::
Guys. Easy on Hornfinger. He's about to cry. ;D
There's no point of arguing with him. The dude is a hater.
Hornfigher is either Milmacas fag lover or his alt.
It's ridiculous though. Take Manny's win over Oscar. He was a superfeatherweight who jumped 3 divisions, and Oscar came back down to his old welterweight limit.
That's analagous to Floyd Mayweather moving up to super middleweight to meet Jean Pascal moving back down from 175 and then beating the snot out of him until the referee stopped the fight.
True, the Floyd haters wouldn't be impressed either, of course he would win under such unfavourable circumnstances for Pascal they would say. Pascal had to move down a whole weight class, it destroyed his body.
But for normal people not blinded by their own agendas it would be a might impressive feat, and a big risk to step up and take that challenge on.
-
Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
The result isn't what matters because that's always in 20/20 hindsite. If Cotto had beat Pacquiao, he would have been still forced to make a lower weight, the nefarious reason behind the weight dropping was still there. Right? You are upset because of the reason behind having the catchweight, to have someone lose weight so that the fighter is less effective, and his opponent having an unfair advantage. Right? If that is the case, what Williams did with Martinez is just as bad because it was for that exact same reason.
In my opinion, the only fight Pacquiao had where I thought they maybe did that for that reason was the Cotto fight. Margarito was a career welterweight, 150 actually is probably his ideal weight. Pacquiao fought Hatton at Hatton's natural weight - 140, Mayweather made Hatton come up to 147. Pac met ODLH at a middle point, and don't forget, ODLH was heavily favored going into that fight. Clottey was at 147.
Of course it matters who wins. That's the whole point of boxing. No ones going to make a fuss when a big guy comes down a couple of pounds and beats a little guy. Because it's expected. However when a big guy has to come down in weight and then looks and fights like a damn zombie, of course people are going to say something.
I don't need to discredit pacquiao because the FACTS speak for themselves.
What you are saying is that if Williams had beat Martinez, you would given him a ton of crap like you are doing now, but because he lost, you're giving him a free pass?
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
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Originally Posted by
Bilbo
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Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
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Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
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Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
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Originally Posted by
Bilbo
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Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
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Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156?
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?
My point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, I think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. that can't be said for the Pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
You think the out come of Hagler vs Leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
The result isn't what matters because that's always in 20/20 hindsite. If Cotto had beat Pacquiao, he would have been still forced to make a lower weight, the nefarious reason behind the weight dropping was still there. Right? You are upset because of the reason behind having the catchweight, to have someone lose weight so that the fighter is less effective, and his opponent having an unfair advantage. Right? If that is the case, what Williams did with Martinez is just as bad because it was for that exact same reason.
In my opinion, the only fight Pacquiao had where I thought they maybe did that for that reason was the Cotto fight. Margarito was a career welterweight, 150 actually is probably his ideal weight. Pacquiao fought Hatton at Hatton's natural weight - 140, Mayweather made Hatton come up to 147. Pac met ODLH at a middle point, and don't forget, ODLH was heavily favored going into that fight. Clottey was at 147.
Of course it matters who wins. That's the whole point of boxing. No ones going to make a fuss when a big guy comes down a couple of pounds and beats a little guy. Because it's expected. However when a big guy has to come down in weight and then looks and fights like a damn zombie, of course people are going to say something.
I don't need to discredit pacquiao because the FACTS speak for themselves.
Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. So in your OWN words, it's not usually a big deal for a fighter to come down a couple of pounds and still beat up the little guy, it's what you would expect.
But because Pacquiao beats them, then obviously this proves the exception where the loss of a pound was pivotal and turned the fight result on its head? :confused:
Not sure if you noticed but Manny has also fought Hatton, Clottey and David Diaz all in their chosen weight classes since moving up, and beat the snot out of every single one of them every bit as convincingly as the other guys.
The only fighter you could make a case for being weight drained was Oscar, and that WASN'T a catchweight fight.
My posts are rediculous?
Whats rediculous is a so called boxing fan 1st off all has no clue about the strains making weight puts on the body and 2nd can't see when a fighter enters the ring looking like a shadow of a man.
IT ALL COMES BACK TO THE SAME THING.
IF PACQUIAO WAS REALLY CONFIDENT ABOUT BEATING THESE PEOPLE WHY IS HE INSISTING ON BRINGING THEM DOWN UNDER THEIR COMFORTABLE WEIGHT?
ANSWER THAT MOTHER FUCKING QUESTION.
THIS IS ONLY HEIGHTENED BY PACS OWN DETERMINATION TO FIGHT MARQUEZ AT A HIGHER WEIGHT. IF DROPPING WEIGHT DOESN'T TAKE ANYTHING OUT OF A FIGHTER WHY DOESN'T BACK FIGHT JMM AT 135 OR 140?
ANSWER THAT FUCKING QUESTION.
But all that is rediculous right?
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Re: De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
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Originally Posted by
rantcatrat
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Originally Posted by
hornfinger
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Originally Posted by
rantcatrat
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Originally Posted by
hornfinger
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Originally Posted by
bilbo
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Originally Posted by
hornfinger
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Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
i liked the quote used by yb the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-hopkins at 156?
Chavez-whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-marinez at 158? Hardly a moan.
But with pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
And if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
Btw no one forced oscar to fight manny, it was oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the a side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with manny.
in those fights listed how many of the guys coming down to the weight lost?
i think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them i don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights i saw. You presumably disagree?
my point was actually going to be the guy coming down in weight won the majority of those fights, i think hopkins won all of his on that list and that's why no fuss was made. That can't be said for the pacquiao fights. In all of those the guy coming down looked weak and slow and got a one sided beating and that's why a fuss was kicked up
you think the out come of hagler vs leonard would have been the same if they had had the weight stipulations?
the result isn't what matters because that's always in 20/20 hindsite. If cotto had beat pacquiao, he would have been still forced to make a lower weight, the nefarious reason behind the weight dropping was still there. Right? You are upset because of the reason behind having the catchweight, to have someone lose weight so that the fighter is less effective, and his opponent having an unfair advantage. Right? If that is the case, what williams did with martinez is just as bad because it was for that exact same reason.
In my opinion, the only fight pacquiao had where i thought they maybe did that for that reason was the cotto fight. Margarito was a career welterweight, 150 actually is probably his ideal weight. Pacquiao fought hatton at hatton's natural weight - 140, mayweather made hatton come up to 147. Pac met odlh at a middle point, and don't forget, odlh was heavily favored going into that fight. Clottey was at 147.
of course it matters who wins. That's the whole point of boxing. No ones going to make a fuss when a big guy comes down a couple of pounds and beats a little guy. Because it's expected. However when a big guy has to come down in weight and then looks and fights like a damn zombie, of course people are going to say something.
I don't need to discredit pacquiao because the facts speak for themselves.
what you are saying is that if williams had beat martinez, you would given him a ton of crap like you are doing now, but because he lost, you're giving him a free pass?
answer this question....
Did martinez look like a zombie shadow of a man in the ring?
