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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Bilbo you said
"It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again."
You say this as though people believing something is the same as evidence, and as though there are numerous eyewitness accounts of his resurrection. So what is it ? did they witness him coming back from the dead or were they deluded? If they made up the second bit why believe the first bit? or do you believe he did come back from the dead?
Mars said that he did not believe the Jesus described in the Gospels
“there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel.”
So don’t now pretend
"Now I'm not arguing for the truth of Jesus's claims. I cannot provide any evidence that he healed the sick or raiswd the dead. Those are matters of faith and beyond this discussion. But the claim that he never existed at all simply cannot be taken seriously, and isn't by any serious scholars or historians."
Mars showed you scholars who take his claim seriously
Mars said there was virtually no secular historical evidence
you quoted a massive total of two scholars only one of which was not copied by Christian monks then you chose to conveniently ignore all the cogent points made that throw doubt on this Jesus described in the Gospels and pretend that the whole argument was about an ordinary man called Jesus. Not Tacitus's Christus, Not Jesus Christ the divine, but ordinary Jesus who nobody questioned existing.Then you complained because your attention was drawn to a website that you quoted in your defence and tried to make out that it was not you who didn't think before you quoted.
Miles look at again at what Bilbo is saying, we are not talking about a guy called Jesus existing . Bilbo refers to him as a healer as one who was raised again. He insists the Bible's outrageous claims must be true because if they were not everyone in the area would dispute them. You can not separate out the Jesus in the Bible from his divinity, miracle working, resurrection and virgin birth without accepting that the person you are discussing is no longer "the Jesus depicted in the "gospels".
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Bilbo you said
"It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again."
You say this as though people believing something is the same as evidence, and as though there are numerous eyewitness accounts of his resurrection. So what is it ? did they witness him coming back from the dead or were they deluded? If they made up the second bit why believe the first bit? or do you believe he did come back from the dead?
Mars said that he did not believe the Jesus described in the Gospels
“there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel.”
So don’t now pretend
"Now I'm not arguing for the truth of Jesus's claims. I cannot provide any evidence that he healed the sick or raiswd the dead. Those are matters of faith and beyond this discussion. But the claim that he never existed at all simply cannot be taken seriously, and isn't by any serious scholars or historians."
Mars showed you scholars who take his claim seriously
Mars said there was virtually no secular historical evidence
you quoted a massive total of two scholars only one of which was not copied by Christian monks then you chose to conveniently ignore all the cogent points made that throw doubt on this Jesus described in the Gospels and pretend that the whole argument was about an ordinary man called Jesus. Not Tacitus's Christus, Not Jesus Christ the divine, but ordinary Jesus who nobody questioned existing.Then you complained because your attention was drawn to a website that you quoted in your defence and tried to make out that it was not you who didn't think before you quoted.
Miles look at again at what Bilbo is saying, we are not talking about a guy called Jesus existing . Bilbo refers to him as a healer as one who was raised again. He insists the Bible's outrageous claims must be true because if they were not everyone in the area would dispute them. You can not separate out the Jesus in the Bible from his divinity, miracle working, resurrection and virgin birth without accepting that the person you are discussing is no longer "the Jesus depicted in the "gospels".
Assuming that a holy man named Jesus existed, it's safe to say that if nothing was written about him until a minimum of 50 to 100 years after his alleged death, the text would have to be based not on eyewitness testimony, but fabricated totally from hearsay. It makes you wonder what the unknown authors of the gospels actually had to go by, since "jesus" never wrote anything himself and they were the first to write about him 50+ years AD.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Greenbeanz. Do you have any idea of how ancient history study works, and how much contemporary material you would expect to find about any ancient figure?
There is as much contemporary written sources for the existance of Jesus as there is for Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great, Themistocles, Miltiades, Xerxes os any other great historical figure.
The Bible, whether you believe its claims or not is one of the most important historical documents of the ancient world, having 4 Gospels written about you in the Bible is in itself a massive proof that he existed. Having an independent Roman historian, the greatest historian no less, confirm that by AD 60 Chritisna were already noticeably split and distinct from the rest of the Jewish population, and had already started to be persecuted as a group confims beyond any doubt that the Christian movement must have began immediately following the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, it is simply not credible to hold any other opinion.
The names that Mars quoted are just names he grabbed from silly websites that spout false, spurious and outated nonense, like you are doing.
Again, as to Jesus' claims, the miracles, the healings, his death and resurrection. I couldn't care less if you believe any of that or not. I cannot, and have never pretended to be able to provide evidence or proof for that. Believing Jesus to be the Son of God is purely a matter of faith.
I have pointed out though that clearly, the early Christians, his immediate followers, and those they came into contact with and were the first converts, were so convinced of this truth, that they willingly suffered the most horrendous of deaths and tortures for this belief. Does that mean they were right when they believed they saw Jesus raised again, and witnessed his miracles? Not necessarily, but it does clearly show that he managed to convince them, and was therefore a real man.
You are really talking garbage. Look at the examples you gave that you compared to Jesus. Scientology, The Waco seige, let's look at some more Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnessess etc.
I agree with you most of these are based on nonsense. But how many were not founded by anybody? Scientology was the invention of Run HUbbard, The Waco cult, David Koresh. Mormonism Jospeh Smith. Did these people not exist either?
The evidence for the actual existence of an historical Jesus is beyond reasonable doubt. You are simply wrong to believe otherwise.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
There is one part of the Bible t precludes me from being a true follower, becuase I simply cannot adhere to the rule. This rule is....
"You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey"
I've had neighbours with fucking lovely Ox's and Donkey's and I always set my desire on them. And don't even get me started on the 'Manservant'
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Bilbo you have made it clear in the original "Do you ever doubt God's Existence thread?"exactly where you stand.
"I never doubt his existence at all.I used to be an atheist until I discovered Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. They converted me to Christianity and now I cannot comprehend how people cannot believe
The universe is ordered and structured. Outside of the philosophical beliefs of evolutionary humanism random chance and organisation of knowledge and material has never been observed to occur.
That a creation needs a creator is the conclusion of simple but cast iron logic that has never been contradicted in the history of humankind.
Those arguing for a universe from nothing believe in something that for which there has never been a shred of evidence, whereas those who believe a complicated design needs an intelligent designer can look to every single structure ever made."
Therefore you can not pretend that you are referring to an historical Jesus, you are speaking about the exact same, Jesus as described in the Gospels, that Mars , Myself and many other open minded, logical, questioning people have suggested may well be an amalgam, a composite of various messianic like figures claiming divinity at the time.
Your belief that
"The Bible, whether you believe its claims or not is one of the most important historical documents of the ancient world" is frankly just not true it has been proved to be wildly inaccurate again and again, even in ascertaining the belief system of the people it refers to as Israelites. Your use of phrases like "beyond any doubt"reveal you arrogance and inability to accept reason, however well made the argument. Your belligerence reveals your ignorance.
Your moving from a position of atheism to that of a believer is a clear example of you eschewing logic in favour of faith, a position you are more than entitled to take. The issue I have with you, is your assumption that i dismiss your beliefs "with a wave of the hand" because it suits me emotionally to do so. I arrived at the place I am now, both intellectually and philosophically, after many years of fervent searching and belief, exploring many faiths and researching their historical development. It has been a painful journey that has cost me massively in both emotional and physical sacrifices, and so I do not take kindly to you assertions of ignorance and retardation. You say
"The names that Mars quoted are just names he grabbed from silly websites that spout false, spurious and outated nonense, like you are doing."
and then go on to use the Bible like it is an authentic Historical document. You are clearly speaking from a point of extreme prejudice, and have no idea how to construct a rational argument. It is becoming increasingly futile to try and have a conversation with someone putting their fingers in their ears, and going "la la la". So I give up, Jesus Christ the divine, as described in the Gospels was obviously a real historic figure, along with his virgin birth, resurrection to heaven and many miracles.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Greenbeanz. Do you have any idea of how ancient history study works, and how much contemporary material you would expect to find about any ancient figure?
There is as much contemporary written sources for the existance of Jesus as there is for Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great, Themistocles, Miltiades, Xerxes os any other great historical figure.
The Bible, whether you believe its claims or not is one of the most important historical documents of the ancient world, having 4 Gospels written about you in the Bible is in itself a massive proof that he existed. Having an independent Roman historian, the greatest historian no less, confirm that by AD 60 Chritisna were already noticeably split and distinct from the rest of the Jewish population, and had already started to be persecuted as a group confims beyond any doubt that the Christian movement must have began immediately following the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, it is simply not credible to hold any other opinion.
The names that Mars quoted are just names he grabbed from silly websites that spout false, spurious and outated nonense, like you are doing.
Again, as to Jesus' claims, the miracles, the healings, his death and resurrection. I couldn't care less if you believe any of that or not. I cannot, and have never pretended to be able to provide evidence or proof for that. Believing Jesus to be the Son of God is purely a matter of faith.
I have pointed out though that clearly, the early Christians, his immediate followers, and those they came into contact with and were the first converts, were so convinced of this truth, that they willingly suffered the most horrendous of deaths and tortures for this belief. Does that mean they were right when they believed they saw Jesus raised again, and witnessed his miracles? Not necessarily, but it does clearly show that he managed to convince them, and was therefore a real man.
You are really talking garbage. Look at the examples you gave that you compared to Jesus. Scientology, The Waco seige, let's look at some more Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnessess etc.
I agree with you most of these are based on nonsense. But how many were not founded by anybody? Scientology was the invention of Run HUbbard, The Waco cult, David Koresh. Mormonism Jospeh Smith. Did these people not exist either?
The evidence for the actual existence of an historical Jesus is beyond reasonable doubt. You are simply wrong to believe otherwise.
You know the Mormons live a good life they are actually mostly very good law abiding people.
More than 20 million of them now and they all give a lot more than 1 dollar each per week! You could do alot worse than them, but it is a very big business too. Catholic is much bigger. Imagine that amount of people all tithe around 10 % of their income.
Its astounding.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Bilbo you have made it clear in the original "Do you ever doubt God's Existence thread?"exactly where you stand.
"I never doubt his existence at all.I used to be an atheist until I discovered Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. They converted me to Christianity and now I cannot comprehend how people cannot believe
The universe is ordered and structured. Outside of the philosophical beliefs of evolutionary humanism random chance and organisation of knowledge and material has never been observed to occur.
That a creation needs a creator is the conclusion of simple but cast iron logic that has never been contradicted in the history of humankind.
Those arguing for a universe from nothing believe in something that for which there has never been a shred of evidence, whereas those who believe a complicated design needs an intelligent designer can look to every single structure ever made."
Therefore you can not pretend that you are referring to an historical Jesus, you are speaking about the exact same, Jesus as described in the Gospels, that Mars , Myself and many other open minded, logical, questioning people have suggested may well be an amalgam, a composite of various messianic like figures claiming divinity at the time.
Your belief that
"The Bible, whether you believe its claims or not is one of the most important historical documents of the ancient world" is frankly just not true it has been proved to be wildly inaccurate again and again, even in ascertaining the belief system of the people it refers to as Israelites. Your use of phrases like "beyond any doubt"reveal you arrogance and inability to accept reason, however well made the argument. Your belligerence reveals your ignorance.
Your moving from a position of atheism to that of a believer is a clear example of you eschewing logic in favour of faith, a position you are more than entitled to take. The issue I have with you, is your assumption that i dismiss your beliefs "with a wave of the hand" because it suits me emotionally to do so. I arrived at the place I am now, both intellectually and philosophically, after many years of fervent searching and belief, exploring many faiths and researching their historical development. It has been a painful journey that has cost me massively in both emotional and physical sacrifices, and so I do not take kindly to you assertions of ignorance and retardation. You say
"The names that Mars quoted are just names he grabbed from silly websites that spout false, spurious and outated nonense, like you are doing."
and then go on to use the Bible like it is an authentic Historical document. You are clearly speaking from a point of extreme prejudice, and have no idea how to construct a rational argument. It is becoming increasingly futile to try and have a conversation with someone putting their fingers in their ears, and going "la la la". So I give up, Jesus Christ the divine, as described in the Gospels was obviously a real historic figure, along with his virgin birth, resurrection to heaven and many miracles.
Again you are going off on a tangent, resurrecting old posts and trying to respond and challenge claims that I never made to Mars Ax.
I responded specifically to Mars' claim that Jesus never existed and was made up 300 years after the events.
That is demonstrably false. Jesus was a real historical person. He actually lived.
Questions regarding his divinity, the miracles, virgin birth and resurrection will always remain matters of faith. I am not commenting on them at all here, I'm sticking entirely to the topic at hand, that Jesus was a real historical figure and that nobody seriously disputes this.
Watch this video extract with Richard Dawkins debating a Christian. Even Dawkins, the most militant and well informed atheist on the planet concedes that Jesus existed. Watch the clip.
He says 'If I have alluded to scholars claiming that Jesus never existed I take that back, he existed'.
You are simply wrong to claim otherwise. It isn't arrogance any more than stating that Julius Ceasar was real. He really lived, nobody challenges this, it is universally accepted.
Regarding the accuracry and truth of the Gospels I am making no claims whatsoever, believe or not believe makes no difference to me.
Just accept that your claim/belief that he was an invented character who never existed at all is demonstrably untrue.
If that encourages to reevalute the other claims regarding his life and divinity, then great, if it doesn't that's fine too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRg0AIiGAyQ
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
I'm curious about some of the time lines being used. My understanding is that Jesus was supposed to have been killed around 31 AD and that the first documents that now make up the new testament were written between 35 AD and 97 AD. I'm not talking about when the Bible was put together or canonizing but when the disciples either actually wrote or had a scribe write the original document/letter that in some form made it into what we now call the New Testament. Are these dates contested and/or am I completely off on my own time line?
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
I'm curious about some of the time lines being used. My understanding is that Jesus was supposed to have been killed around 31 AD and that the first documents that now make up the new testament were written between 35 AD and 97 AD. I'm not talking about when the Bible was put together or canonizing but when the disciples either actually wrote or had a scribe write the original document/letter that in some form made it into what we now call the New Testament. Are these dates contested and/or am I completely off on my own time line?
They are not seriously contested.
Most scholars and historians accept that the Gospels were written well before 100AD and in most cases well before 70 AD.
In 70 AD the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.
None of the Gospels or the book of Acts record this hugely important event indicating that they were clearly written before this pivotal event.
The earliest quote from a Gospel comes from Ignatius in 115AD where he quotes Matthew, proving beyond doubt that not only were the Gospels written and widely circulated by this time but were also accepted as authorative and used in teaching etc. Clearly they were written and in widespread use many years before this so must have been written well before the end of the first century.
Most scholars believe that Mark was the first gospel to be written, and give a likely date of 55AD, so 20 years after the crucifixion.
Mars Ax and Greenbeanz are quite frankly making stuff up. That's why running to a website and quoting random pages is never a good idea. Lots of people talk crap on the internet.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
I love God and all people too, that goes beyond belief and faith.
Ive seen demonic spirits leave people twisted and cursing to be at peace and they visually change in appearance. I have seen other miracle healings occur and I haven't been in a church or read the bible in any large degree for maybe 20 years aside from a couple of funerals. From my point of view God is bigger than any man made religion.
God is not an old man with white hair in a clouded paradise.That is bullshit and that is where misinterpretation continues to be birthed. God is just a man made word for the love and light energies that separated and run through every atom in every Universe.Here on Earth in 3d and below us in 2d we have light being crushed into material. Some can only see materially and denounce the infinate behind it and so are blind to the infinite in themselves and they call it being smart ,call it intelligence.
Even physics proves them wrong on some points regarding electrons that move from one dimension to the next and back here again,the fact that observation changes outcome and yet they still call some unseen energy as fake.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
I love God and all people too, that goes beyond belief and faith.
Ive seen demonic spirits leave people twisted and cursing to be at peace and they visually change in appearance. I have seen other miracle healings occur and I haven't been in a church or read the bible in any large degree for maybe 20 years aside from a couple of funerals. From my point of view God is bigger than any man made religion.
God is not an old man with white hair in a clouded paradise.That is bullshit and that is where misinterpretation continues to be birthed. God is just a man made word for the love and light energies that separated and run through every atom in every Universe.Here on Earth in 3d and below us in 2d we have light being crushed into material. Some can only see materially and denounce the infinate behind it and so are blind to the infinite in themselves and they call it being smart ,call it intelligence.
Even physics proves them wrong on some points regarding electrons that move from one dimension to the next and back here again,the fact that observation changes outcome and yet they still call some unseen energy as fake.
I don't really disagree with any of that Andre.
Nobody can truly understand God, and He certainly isn't a man on a cloud. It truly baffles my mind to wonder what He is, where He is etc. It's so beyond our finite brains to understand.
Oh also, regarding Mormons, I agree with you there too. I have a good femal American friend who is a Mormon and who got her degree from Brigham University. Nice girl.
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Bilbo you are right people do talk a lot of krap on the internet. Richard Dawkins is not my saviour, and his concession that a historical figure called Jesus existed, when faced with a cretinous fool who then thought it was a small jump from there to Jesus actually being God is neither here nor there. Of course you can never accept the fact that the Jesus described in the Gospels may be fictional.It would mean denying your saviour. You have already dismissed the majority of the scientific community with your claim that the universe was created. The only cast iron thing about your loony assertions is that they are based on faith and not logic.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Bilbo you are right people do talk a lot of krap on the internet. Richard Dawkins is not my saviour, and his concession that a historical figure called Jesus existed, when faced with a cretinous fool who then thought it was a small jump from there to Jesus actually being God is neither here nor there. Of course you can never accept the fact that the Jesus described in the Gospels may be fictional.It would mean denying your saviour. You have already dismissed the majority of the scientific community with your claim that the universe was created. The only cast iron thing about your loony assertions is that they are based on faith and not logic.
Huh? I've repeatedly said that believing the divine and miraculous claims attributed to Christ are a matter of faith.
In this little debate I've stuck purely to factual truths. It is factually innaccurate to claim that there is no evidence that Jesus existed at all and that his story was made up 300 years later.
That is wrong, errant, untrue, false, incorrect etc.
I've demonstrated that both secular historians from Jesus' time and the leading and most informed atheists of today all accept/concede that Jesus was a historical figure.
Whether he did the things or said the things attested of him I cannot, and am not attempting to prove or disprove. I will merely say that clearly enough of his followers were convinced by him that they were willing to sacrifice their own lives for the cause.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
"The names that Mars quoted are just names he grabbed from silly websites that spout false, spurious and outated nonense, like you are doing."
and then go on to use the Bible like it is an authentic Historical document. You are clearly speaking from a point of extreme prejudice, and have no idea how to construct a rational argument. It is becoming increasingly futile to try and have a conversation with someone putting their fingers in their ears, and going "la la la". So I give up, Jesus Christ the divine, as described in the Gospels was obviously a real historic figure, along with his virgin birth, resurrection to heaven and many miracles.
You don't get anywhere trying to debate or reason with condescending, fundamentalist christian bigots like Bilbo, they're absolutists who've already bought it all, hook, line and sinker.
:biteit:
Whether a man named Jesus actually existed or not, can't be proven one way or the other. One thing that's certain, there's a total lack of secular "historical" evidence confirming what was written about him in the gospels. Because of this, even if you removed the supernatual events, and divinity et al, from the New Testament, it would still have to be considered a fabrication and/or work of fiction.
That's not to say that the gospels aren't a marvelous, educational, collection of religious literature. (but terminally boring)
cheers Beanz, BTW, good job of owning Bilbo.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
"The names that Mars quoted are just names he grabbed from silly websites that spout false, spurious and outated nonense, like you are doing."
and then go on to use the Bible like it is an authentic Historical document. You are clearly speaking from a point of extreme prejudice, and have no idea how to construct a rational argument. It is becoming increasingly futile to try and have a conversation with someone putting their fingers in their ears, and going "la la la". So I give up, Jesus Christ the divine, as described in the Gospels was obviously a real historic figure, along with his virgin birth, resurrection to heaven and many miracles.
You don't get anywhere trying to debate or reason with condescending, fundamentalist christian bigots like Bilbo, they're absolutists who've already bought it all, hook, line and sinker.
Whether a man named Jesus actually existed or not, can't be proven one way or the other. One thing that's certain, there's a total lack of secular "historical" evidence confirming what was written about him in the gospels. Because of this, even if you removed the supernatual events, and divinity et al, from the New Testament, it would still have to be considered a fabrication and/or work of fiction.
That's not to say that the gospels aren't a marvelous, educational, collection of religious literature. (but terminally boring)
cheers Beanz, BTW, good job of owning Bilbo.
Whether a man named Jesus actually existed or not, can't be proven one way or the other.
Yes, it can. He existed. There is not a single active scholar in the world who seriously contests this. Please point me to any mainstream history book published in the last 100 years that says he was a made up, fictional character.
One thing that's certain, there's a total lack of secular "historical" evidence confirming what was written about him in the gospels.
Huh? You want 'secular' evidence confirming that he healed the sick, walked on water, rasied people from the dead and was the Son of God? I'll leave you to work out the irony of this.
cheers Beanz, BTW, good job of owning Bilbo.
haha, the only thing you were correct about is that I am condescending. ;)
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Alright, gentlemen, I'm not going to debate whether God exists or not 'cause I know it will get nowhere. All I can say is that He either exists or not; that makes it 50-50, even. But with an even-steven chance, don't you think it's better to be on the safe side? Nuff of that...
Let's discuss something different but related.
Why is it that at the dawn of civilization, all tribes, as we call them, developed certain rituals or practices mostly religious in nature? For example, why did almost all tribes in the world develop some form of rituals like dancing & chantings? Why did most of them offer sacrifices? And as Adam and Eve had done, why did they start to cover themself and sex suddenly becomes something to be ashamed of? which is contrary to the evolutionary principle of 'let's go and multiply with abandon'?
It's a fact that when people engage in chanting-dancing rituals, which is usually their way to communicate with their Gods, their mind is brought into a sem-trance state or the alpha mode, as scientists classify them according to the brain-wave pattern. It's the same mode as when people go into deep prayer or meditation. But more intriguing is it's the same mode or state of mind when great discoveries were made, taking the classic example of how Isaac Newton discovered his gravity theory:
'...whilst he was musing in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity...'
So you see fellas, there is something there when people go into alpha state of mind. The early humans believed it to be the way to communicate with God. The Hindu's and the Buddhist's, and meditators like us believe it's the way to tap into the 'Universal Mind' which is a storehouse of all knowledge of this universe...
...Pak Fung asked God, 'why are hiding?
why do you not show Yourself unto mankind?'
God replied, 'I conceal Myself so that you
may learn to use the most precious gift
I gave you, the most potent instrument
to solve all you problems.'
Then, Pak Fung asked, what is this potent gift?'
God replied, 'Faith.'..
...where was I.. ah, yes...
so obviously, since the dawn of civilization, when man's eyes of knowledge was opened, so to speak, one of the first thing he did was to believe and worship God, and therefore, it is a fact that belief in God was almost intinctive in early human civilization. But the big question is why? There is a reason for everything in this world, but, even without regards to whether God exist or not, why did human beings at the dawn of civilzation worship God(s) in some form? Why was manking planted with the seed of religion from its earliest days. There must be a reason for that and that is the question...
(btw, I don't answer scoffs, I answer them with grunts privately, though. Okay, fellas keep your sense of humor and keep your cool. That first one to lose his cool loses;)...)
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Alright, gentlemen, I'm not going to debate whether God exists or not 'cause I know it will get nowhere. All I can say is that He either exists or not; that makes it 50-50, even. But with an even-steven chance, don't you think it's better to be on the safe side? Nuff of that...
Let's discuss something different but related.
Why is it that at the dawn of civilization, all tribes, as we call them, developed certain rituals or practices mostly religious in nature? For example, why did almost all tribes in the world develop some form of rituals like dancing & chantings? Why did most of them offer sacrifices? And as Adam and Eve had done, why did they start to cover themself and sex suddenly becomes something to be ashamed of? which is contrary to the evolutionary principle of 'let's go and multiply with abandon'?
It's a fact that when people engage in chanting-dancing rituals, which is usually their way to communicate with their Gods, their mind is brought into a sem-trance state or the alpha mode, as scientists classify them according to the brain-wave pattern. It's the same mode as when people go into deep prayer or meditation. But more intriguing is it's the same mode or state of mind when great discoveries were made, taking the classic example of how Isaac Newton discovered his gravity theory:
'...whilst he was musing in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity...'
So you see fellas, there is something there when people go into alpha state of mind. The early humans believed it to be the way to communicate with God. The Hindu's and the Buddhist's, and meditators like us believe it's the way to tap into the 'Universal Mind' which is a storehouse of all knowledge of this universe...
...
Pak Fung asked God, 'why are hiding?
why do you not show Yourself unto mankind?'
God replied, 'I conceal Myself so that you
may learn to use the most precious gift
I gave you, the most potent instrument
to solve all you problems.'
Then, Pak Fung asked, what is this potent gift?'
God replied, 'Faith.'..
...where was I.. ah, yes...
so obviously, since the dawn of civilization, when man's eyes of knowledge was opened, so to speak, one of the first thing he did was to believe and worship God, and therefore,
it is a fact that belief in God was almost intinctive in early human civilization. But the big question is why? There is a reason for everything in this world, but, even without regards to whether God exist or not, why did human beings at the dawn of civilzation worship God(s) in some form? Why was manking planted with the seed of religion from its earliest days. There must be a reason for that and that is the question...
(btw, I don't answer scoffs, I answer them with grunts privately, though. Okay, fellas keep your sense of humor and keep your cool. That first one to lose his cool loses;)...)
I take it that you don't accept the argument that God was invented so that some people within society could use "talking" with God as a way to elevate themselves above their peers?
Personally, I think it is hard for any being with consciousness to accept that they are here for no reason greater than a long sequence of random occurrences. That is why people look for a higher being to explain their purpose, when there really is none.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
superheavyrhun
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Alright, gentlemen, I'm not going to debate whether God exists or not 'cause I know it will get nowhere. All I can say is that He either exists or not; that makes it 50-50, even. But with an even-steven chance, don't you think it's better to be on the safe side? Nuff of that...
Let's discuss something different but related.
Why is it that at the dawn of civilization, all tribes, as we call them, developed certain rituals or practices mostly religious in nature? For example, why did almost all tribes in the world develop some form of rituals like dancing & chantings? Why did most of them offer sacrifices? And as Adam and Eve had done, why did they start to cover themself and sex suddenly becomes something to be ashamed of? which is contrary to the evolutionary principle of 'let's go and multiply with abandon'?
It's a fact that when people engage in chanting-dancing rituals, which is usually their way to communicate with their Gods, their mind is brought into a sem-trance state or the alpha mode, as scientists classify them according to the brain-wave pattern. It's the same mode as when people go into deep prayer or meditation. But more intriguing is it's the same mode or state of mind when great discoveries were made, taking the classic example of how Isaac Newton discovered his gravity theory:
'...whilst he was musing in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity...'
So you see fellas, there is something there when people go into alpha state of mind. The early humans believed it to be the way to communicate with God. The Hindu's and the Buddhist's, and meditators like us believe it's the way to tap into the 'Universal Mind' which is a storehouse of all knowledge of this universe...
...
Pak Fung asked God, 'why are hiding?
why do you not show Yourself unto mankind?'
God replied, 'I conceal Myself so that you
may learn to use the most precious gift
I gave you, the most potent instrument
to solve all you problems.'
Then, Pak Fung asked, what is this potent gift?'
God replied, 'Faith.'..
...where was I.. ah, yes...
so obviously, since the dawn of civilization, when man's eyes of knowledge was opened, so to speak, one of the first thing he did was to believe and worship God, and therefore,
it is a fact that belief in God was almost intinctive in early human civilization. But the big question is why? There is a reason for everything in this world, but, even without regards to whether God exist or not, why did human beings at the dawn of civilzation worship God(s) in some form? Why was manking planted with the seed of religion from its earliest days. There must be a reason for that and that is the question...
(btw, I don't answer scoffs, I answer them with grunts privately, though. Okay, fellas keep your sense of humor and keep your cool. That first one to lose his cool loses;)...)
I take it that you don't accept the argument that God was invented so that some people within society could use "talking" with God as a way to elevate themselves above their peers?
Personally, I think it is hard for any being with consciousness to accept that they are here for no reason greater than a long sequence of random occurrences. That is why people look for a higher being to explain their purpose, when there really is none.
Is it somehow easier intellectually to believe the entire universe exists for no reason, with no purpose at all and nobody or nothing behind it's origin and sustainment?
I mean, leaving aside how incredibly negative that is as a worldview, what do you base your reasoning on?
What examples of other highly complex and functioning systems have you seen and experienced that arose out of nothing, with no intelligence or design whatsoever and serve no purpose at all?
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
superheavyrhun
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Alright, gentlemen, I'm not going to debate whether God exists or not 'cause I know it will get nowhere. All I can say is that He either exists or not; that makes it 50-50, even. But with an even-steven chance, don't you think it's better to be on the safe side? Nuff of that...
Let's discuss something different but related.
Why is it that at the dawn of civilization, all tribes, as we call them, developed certain rituals or practices mostly religious in nature? For example, why did almost all tribes in the world develop some form of rituals like dancing & chantings? Why did most of them offer sacrifices? And as Adam and Eve had done, why did they start to cover themself and sex suddenly becomes something to be ashamed of? which is contrary to the evolutionary principle of 'let's go and multiply with abandon'?
It's a fact that when people engage in chanting-dancing rituals, which is usually their way to communicate with their Gods, their mind is brought into a sem-trance state or the alpha mode, as scientists classify them according to the brain-wave pattern. It's the same mode as when people go into deep prayer or meditation. But more intriguing is it's the same mode or state of mind when great discoveries were made, taking the classic example of how Isaac Newton discovered his gravity theory:
'...whilst he was musing in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity...'
So you see fellas, there is something there when people go into alpha state of mind. The early humans believed it to be the way to communicate with God. The Hindu's and the Buddhist's, and meditators like us believe it's the way to tap into the 'Universal Mind' which is a storehouse of all knowledge of this universe...
...
Pak Fung asked God, 'why are hiding?
why do you not show Yourself unto mankind?'
God replied, 'I conceal Myself so that you
may learn to use the most precious gift
I gave you, the most potent instrument
to solve all you problems.'
Then, Pak Fung asked, what is this potent gift?'
God replied, 'Faith.'..
...where was I.. ah, yes...
so obviously, since the dawn of civilization, when man's eyes of knowledge was opened, so to speak, one of the first thing he did was to believe and worship God, and therefore,
it is a fact that belief in God was almost intinctive in early human civilization. But the big question is why? There is a reason for everything in this world, but, even without regards to whether God exist or not, why did human beings at the dawn of civilzation worship God(s) in some form? Why was manking planted with the seed of religion from its earliest days. There must be a reason for that and that is the question...
(btw, I don't answer scoffs, I answer them with grunts privately, though. Okay, fellas keep your sense of humor and keep your cool. That first one to lose his cool loses;)...)
I take it that you don't accept the argument that God was invented so that some people within society could use "talking" with God as a way to elevate themselves above their peers?
Personally, I think it is hard for any being with consciousness to accept that they are here for no reason greater than a long sequence of random occurrences. That is why people look for a higher being to explain their purpose, when there really is none.
Im with that totally.
Im with the fact that the story of Jesus was changed totally for exactly the same reason too.
But if you search you will find "Jesus's"(Wasnt his name) but for the exercise The one known as Jesus relatives and even some his original followers right here on Earth right now doing exactly the same thing they were doing back then. Theres a hand full in most countrys and the hierarchy within the Catholic church still tries to get them kicked out of some areas, because they do work and heal the poor and sick for free out of their own pockets in some of the worse areas on Earth. Its confusing on every level for every person because of course some people will not be healed by their own choice, but many willing give permission and are 100% open specially kids. It is right there that the Love of God is experienced by both sides in its fullest and purest. Where else would you expect it to be?
In regards to being no higher reason for being here,then you could be allowing your self to be locked into the mental realm; That isnt bad, it is just a tool though, but at its extreme it can take over and then block other parts of you that you dont care to realize even exist; so there is one good reason for a start.
Its our point of view. Is the point at which you experience everything from. Some people form one of their own, more form them from their own relatives making and they protect it like a castle and fort and guard it to their very end: some smash their walls down and never look back; but they don't win any popularity contests.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
superheavyrhun
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Alright, gentlemen, I'm not going to debate whether God exists or not 'cause I know it will get nowhere. All I can say is that He either exists or not; that makes it 50-50, even. But with an even-steven chance, don't you think it's better to be on the safe side? Nuff of that...
Let's discuss something different but related.
Why is it that at the dawn of civilization, all tribes, as we call them, developed certain rituals or practices mostly religious in nature? For example, why did almost all tribes in the world develop some form of rituals like dancing & chantings? Why did most of them offer sacrifices? And as Adam and Eve had done, why did they start to cover themself and sex suddenly becomes something to be ashamed of? which is contrary to the evolutionary principle of 'let's go and multiply with abandon'?
It's a fact that when people engage in chanting-dancing rituals, which is usually their way to communicate with their Gods, their mind is brought into a sem-trance state or the alpha mode, as scientists classify them according to the brain-wave pattern. It's the same mode as when people go into deep prayer or meditation. But more intriguing is it's the same mode or state of mind when great discoveries were made, taking the classic example of how Isaac Newton discovered his gravity theory:
'...whilst he was musing in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity...'
So you see fellas, there is something there when people go into alpha state of mind. The early humans believed it to be the way to communicate with God. The Hindu's and the Buddhist's, and meditators like us believe it's the way to tap into the 'Universal Mind' which is a storehouse of all knowledge of this universe...
...
Pak Fung asked God, 'why are hiding?
why do you not show Yourself unto mankind?'
God replied, 'I conceal Myself so that you
may learn to use the most precious gift
I gave you, the most potent instrument
to solve all you problems.'
Then, Pak Fung asked, what is this potent gift?'
God replied, 'Faith.'..
...where was I.. ah, yes...
so obviously, since the dawn of civilization, when man's eyes of knowledge was opened, so to speak, one of the first thing he did was to believe and worship God, and therefore,
it is a fact that belief in God was almost intinctive in early human civilization. But the big question is why? There is a reason for everything in this world, but, even without regards to whether God exist or not, why did human beings at the dawn of civilzation worship God(s) in some form? Why was manking planted with the seed of religion from its earliest days. There must be a reason for that and that is the question...
(btw, I don't answer scoffs, I answer them with grunts privately, though. Okay, fellas keep your sense of humor and keep your cool. That first one to lose his cool loses;)...)
I take it that you don't accept the argument that God was invented so that some people within society could use "talking" with God as a way to elevate themselves above their peers?
Personally, I think it is hard for any being with consciousness to accept that they are here for no reason greater than a long sequence of random occurrences. That is why people look for a higher being to explain their purpose, when there really is none.
Perhaps, nobody can prove with pure logic the existence of God but nobody could absolutely prove He doesn't exist either. It's just that you chose one and I chose the other, there shouldn't be any problem there, my friend. About 'talking with God' if you were referring to my quote above, common superheavyrhun, you know better than to take me literally, anybody should know that, but I guess I'm misinterpretting you, and if I indeed am, I apologize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
superheavyrhun
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Alright, gentlemen, I'm not going to debate whether God exists or not 'cause I know it will get nowhere. All I can say is that He either exists or not; that makes it 50-50, even. But with an even-steven chance, don't you think it's better to be on the safe side? Nuff of that...
Let's discuss something different but related.
Why is it that at the dawn of civilization, all tribes, as we call them, developed certain rituals or practices mostly religious in nature? For example, why did almost all tribes in the world develop some form of rituals like dancing & chantings? Why did most of them offer sacrifices? And as Adam and Eve had done, why did they start to cover themself and sex suddenly becomes something to be ashamed of? which is contrary to the evolutionary principle of 'let's go and multiply with abandon'?
It's a fact that when people engage in chanting-dancing rituals, which is usually their way to communicate with their Gods, their mind is brought into a sem-trance state or the alpha mode, as scientists classify them according to the brain-wave pattern. It's the same mode as when people go into deep prayer or meditation. But more intriguing is it's the same mode or state of mind when great discoveries were made, taking the classic example of how Isaac Newton discovered his gravity theory:
'...whilst he was musing in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity...'
So you see fellas, there is something there when people go into alpha state of mind. The early humans believed it to be the way to communicate with God. The Hindu's and the Buddhist's, and meditators like us believe it's the way to tap into the 'Universal Mind' which is a storehouse of all knowledge of this universe...
...
Pak Fung asked God, 'why are hiding?
why do you not show Yourself unto mankind?'
God replied, 'I conceal Myself so that you
may learn to use the most precious gift
I gave you, the most potent instrument
to solve all you problems.'
Then, Pak Fung asked, what is this potent gift?'
God replied, 'Faith.'..
...where was I.. ah, yes...
so obviously, since the dawn of civilization, when man's eyes of knowledge was opened, so to speak, one of the first thing he did was to believe and worship God, and therefore,
it is a fact that belief in God was almost intinctive in early human civilization. But the big question is why? There is a reason for everything in this world, but, even without regards to whether God exist or not, why did human beings at the dawn of civilzation worship God(s) in some form? Why was manking planted with the seed of religion from its earliest days. There must be a reason for that and that is the question...
(btw, I don't answer scoffs, I answer them with grunts privately, though. Okay, fellas keep your sense of humor and keep your cool. That first one to lose his cool loses;)...)
I take it that you don't accept the argument that God was invented so that some people within society could use "talking" with God as a way to elevate themselves above their peers?
Personally, I think it is hard for any being with consciousness to accept that they are here for no reason greater than a long sequence of random occurrences. That is why people look for a higher being to explain their purpose, when there really is none.
Is it somehow easier intellectually to believe the entire universe exists for no reason, with no purpose at all and nobody or nothing behind it's origin and sustainment?
I mean, leaving aside how incredibly negative that is as a worldview, what do you base your reasoning on?
What examples of other highly complex and functioning systems have you seen and experienced that arose out of nothing, with no intelligence or design whatsoever and serve no purpose at all?
Something to ponder on...
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Pacfan you and Bilbo really should get a room. If we are not supposed to take you literally than please provide a manual with which to decipher your Gibberish. Your practice of not answering scoffs, except of course with private grunts precludes me from pointing out the ridiculousness of the aloof stance you are taking. Your clearly superficial knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism, would go some way to explainig how having a humour bypass, is utterly inconsistent with those faiths traditions. Next time you tap into the storehouse of all knowledge try asking it, how whilst being provided with a brain ,you are somehow incapable of using it to decipher the progress of humanity. Early man worshipped because he was ignorant, knowledge when acquired makes even the most magical technologies like fire understandable. Children believe all kinds of fairy stories ,but then their brains evolve and they grow up. They realise these stories are convenient fictions to teach them morals and life lessons and move on. Sir Isaac Newton was not in an Alpha state of mind any more than a novelist constructing a plot is when he was musing. He was reflecting on acquired knowledge, and the problems of physics, not empty of mind focussing on nothing."If I have seen further than other men,' said Isaac Newton, 'it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Oh and don't forget "the first one to lose his cool loses";)
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Sorry Pacfan, I was being a little tongue in cheek with my response, and I'm not going to get into a tizz about anything along these lines. I am an atheist, although I think everyone else has the right to believe as they see fit, as long as they're not pushing it down my throat.
I'm not at all militant about the subject, and I'm not trying to convert people to my view. The fact that I view them in this way doesn't mean I'm right, it is just my opinion, and I accept that it if you look right back it is impossible to prove it 100% one way or the other.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
In re: Gods/deities, I see no reason to believe that they weren't totally fabricated by man. In other words, man created god, and not the other way around.
Positive Atheism's Big List of Quotations
A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell -- mouths mercy, and invented hell -- mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
~ Mark Twain
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Pacfan you and Bilbo really should get a room. If we are not supposed to take you literally than please provide a manual with which to decipher your Gibberish. Your practice of not answering scoffs, except of course with private grunts precludes me from pointing out the ridiculousness of the aloof stance you are taking. Your clearly superficial knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism, would go some way to explainig how having a humour bypass, is utterly inconsistent with those faiths traditions. Next time you tap into the storehouse of all knowledge try asking it, how whilst being provided with a brain ,you are somehow incapable of using it to decipher the progress of humanity. Early man worshipped because he was ignorant, knowledge when acquired makes even the most magical technologies like fire understandable. Children believe all kinds of fairy stories ,but then their brains evolve and they grow up. They realise these stories are convenient fictions to teach them morals and life lessons and move on. Sir Isaac Newton was not in an Alpha state of mind any more than a novelist constructing a plot is when he was musing. He was reflecting on acquired knowledge, and the problems of physics, not empty of mind focussing on nothing."If I have seen further than other men,' said Isaac Newton, 'it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Oh and don't forget "the first one to lose his cool loses";)
You are rather a strange man if I may say so.
When debating with you and Mars Ax I just stuck soley to facts and didn't get involved in any religious discussion whatsoever.
All I pointed out was that Jesus was a real historical figure. I proved it beyond reasonable doubt, and having nothing else to come at me with you attempted to change the subject and try and draw me to questions of Jesus' divintiy, miraculaous claims etc, none of which was part of the original discussion.
You and Mars insisted Jesus was a fabricated creation from 300 years after the supposed events of his lifetime.
I demonstrated that you were factually incorrect, and you started rambling about nonsense.
I won't bother to get an admission of error from you. You are an ill educated man and of no consequence. Instead I will merely repeat what Richard Dawkins, the most educated of athiests, and therefore someone worthy of debate said when challenged directly on the subject,
'If I have alluded to the fact that there are scholars who deny the existance of Christ, I take that back, he existed.'
That was all our argument was ever about. I proved my point. You were wrong. You are wrong about many other things too, but I don't rate your capacity to think and reason highly enough to debate you.
Miles is fun, as he is at least well read and funny. I'll just stick to debating serious issues with him.:)
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Pacfan you and Bilbo really should get a room. If we are not supposed to take you literally than please provide a manual with which to decipher your Gibberish. Your practice of not answering scoffs, except of course with private grunts precludes me from pointing out the ridiculousness of the aloof stance you are taking. Your clearly superficial knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism, would go some way to explainig how having a humour bypass, is utterly inconsistent with those faiths traditions. Next time you tap into the storehouse of all knowledge try asking it, how whilst being provided with a brain ,you are somehow incapable of using it to decipher the progress of humanity. Early man worshipped because he was ignorant, knowledge when acquired makes even the most magical technologies like fire understandable. Children believe all kinds of fairy stories ,but then their brains evolve and they grow up. They realise these stories are convenient fictions to teach them morals and life lessons and move on. Sir Isaac Newton was not in an Alpha state of mind any more than a novelist constructing a plot is when he was musing. He was reflecting on acquired knowledge, and the problems of physics, not empty of mind focussing on nothing."If I have seen further than other men,' said Isaac Newton, 'it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Oh and don't forget "the first one to lose his cool loses";)
You are rather a strange man if I may say so.
When debating with you and Mars Ax I just stuck soley to facts and didn't get involved in any religious discussion whatsoever.
All I pointed out was that Jesus was a real historical figure. I proved it beyond reasonable doubt, and having nothing else to come at me with you attempted to change the subject and try and draw me to questions of Jesus' divintiy, miraculaous claims etc, none of which was part of the original discussion.
You and Mars insisted Jesus was a fabricated creation from 300 years after the supposed events of his lifetime.
I demonstrated that you were factually incorrect, and you started rambling about nonsense.
I won't bother to get an admission of error from you. You are an ill educated man and of no consequence. Instead I will merely repeat what Richard Dawkins, the most educated of athiests, and therefore someone worthy of debate said when challenged directly on the subject,
'If I have alluded to the fact that there are scholars who deny the existance of Christ, I take that back, he existed.'
That was all our argument was ever about. I proved my point. You were wrong. You are wrong about many other things too, but I don't rate your capacity to think and reason highly enough to debate you.
Miles is fun, as he is at least well read and funny. I'll just stick to debating serious issues with him.:)
I was talking to Pacman in the quote you have used above which you would have realised had you taken the time to read it.
Mars Ax was talking to Victor Charlie about "the Jesus described in the Gospels" and so was clearly talking about Jesus Christ the Divine. Not just a guy called Jesus.It was at this point YOU interjected and tried to take the moral high ground, sneering at Mars's argument and calling his reasoning retarded. Nobody tried to draw you or change the discussion and yet you seem stupefied that anyone could question your own conclusions.
For a Christian you are a pretty offensive and bigoted individual. You seem unable to accept the fact that someone may come to a different conclusion than you have. I never once said he was fabricated 300 years later, I said that is when Constantine established the Christian church. You never demonstrated jack shit. You kept referring to the Bible like it was a reliable document and then that old chestnut Tacitus. Quite how you can deduce that I am an ill educated man of no substance knowing fuck all about me is remarkable, is it a gift bestowed upon you by Jesus? As for Richard Dawkins which you seemed to think was like pulling out a trump card!...Ha, really Bilbo. The joy of being an atheist is that it frees one from the bond of having to let someone do the thinking for you. I don't not need Dawkins much as i respect him to tell me what to think. He is not the King of the atheists just one of the more vocal.
You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I am glad you find Miles so well read and funny but if you wish only to debate serious issues with him you need to do that in live chat. This is an open forum and not everybody is gonna blow smoke up your ass.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Pacfan you and Bilbo really should get a room. If we are not supposed to take you literally than please provide a manual with which to decipher your Gibberish. Your practice of not answering scoffs, except of course with private grunts precludes me from pointing out the ridiculousness of the aloof stance you are taking. Your clearly superficial knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism, would go some way to explainig how having a humour bypass, is utterly inconsistent with those faiths traditions. Next time you tap into the storehouse of all knowledge try asking it, how whilst being provided with a brain ,you are somehow incapable of using it to decipher the progress of humanity. Early man worshipped because he was ignorant, knowledge when acquired makes even the most magical technologies like fire understandable. Children believe all kinds of fairy stories ,but then their brains evolve and they grow up. They realise these stories are convenient fictions to teach them morals and life lessons and move on. Sir Isaac Newton was not in an Alpha state of mind any more than a novelist constructing a plot is when he was musing. He was reflecting on acquired knowledge, and the problems of physics, not empty of mind focussing on nothing."If I have seen further than other men,' said Isaac Newton, 'it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Oh and don't forget "the first one to lose his cool loses";)
You are rather a strange man if I may say so.
When debating with you and Mars Ax I just stuck soley to facts and didn't get involved in any religious discussion whatsoever.
All I pointed out was that Jesus was a real historical figure. I proved it beyond reasonable doubt, and having nothing else to come at me with you attempted to change the subject and try and draw me to questions of Jesus' divintiy, miraculaous claims etc, none of which was part of the original discussion.
You and Mars insisted Jesus was a fabricated creation from 300 years after the supposed events of his lifetime.
I demonstrated that you were factually incorrect, and you started rambling about nonsense.
I won't bother to get an admission of error from you. You are an ill educated man and of no consequence. Instead I will merely repeat what Richard Dawkins, the most educated of athiests, and therefore someone worthy of debate said when challenged directly on the subject,
'If I have alluded to the fact that there are scholars who deny the existance of Christ, I take that back, he existed.'
That was all our argument was ever about. I proved my point. You were wrong. You are wrong about many other things too, but I don't rate your capacity to think and reason highly enough to debate you.
Miles is fun, as he is at least well read and funny. I'll just stick to debating serious issues with him.:)
That's not what I said fuckwit, the gospels were fabricated 50-300 years later, get your bullshit straight.
Now, back on ignore for you.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Pacfan you and Bilbo really should get a room. If we are not supposed to take you literally than please provide a manual with which to decipher your Gibberish. Your practice of not answering scoffs, except of course with private grunts precludes me from pointing out the ridiculousness of the aloof stance you are taking. Your clearly superficial knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism, would go some way to explainig how having a humour bypass, is utterly inconsistent with those faiths traditions. Next time you tap into the storehouse of all knowledge try asking it, how whilst being provided with a brain ,you are somehow incapable of using it to decipher the progress of humanity. Early man worshipped because he was ignorant, knowledge when acquired makes even the most magical technologies like fire understandable. Children believe all kinds of fairy stories ,but then their brains evolve and they grow up. They realise these stories are convenient fictions to teach them morals and life lessons and move on. Sir Isaac Newton was not in an Alpha state of mind any more than a novelist constructing a plot is when he was musing. He was reflecting on acquired knowledge, and the problems of physics, not empty of mind focussing on nothing."If I have seen further than other men,' said Isaac Newton, 'it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Oh and don't forget "the first one to lose his cool loses";)
You are rather a strange man if I may say so.
When debating with you and Mars Ax I just stuck soley to facts and didn't get involved in any religious discussion whatsoever.
All I pointed out was that Jesus was a real historical figure. I proved it beyond reasonable doubt, and having nothing else to come at me with you attempted to change the subject and try and draw me to questions of Jesus' divintiy, miraculaous claims etc, none of which was part of the original discussion.
You and Mars insisted Jesus was a fabricated creation from 300 years after the supposed events of his lifetime.
I demonstrated that you were factually incorrect, and you started rambling about nonsense.
I won't bother to get an admission of error from you. You are an ill educated man and of no consequence. Instead I will merely repeat what Richard Dawkins, the most educated of athiests, and therefore someone worthy of debate said when challenged directly on the subject,
'If I have alluded to the fact that there are scholars who deny the existance of Christ, I take that back, he existed.'
That was all our argument was ever about. I proved my point. You were wrong. You are wrong about many other things too, but I don't rate your capacity to think and reason highly enough to debate you.
Miles is fun, as he is at least well read and funny. I'll just stick to debating serious issues with him.:)
I was talking to Pacman in the quote you have used above which you would have realised had you taken the time to read it.
Mars Ax was talking to Victor Charlie about "the Jesus described in the Gospels" and so was clearly talking about Jesus Christ the Divine. Not just a guy called Jesus.It was at this point YOU interjected and tried to take the moral high ground, sneering at Mars's argument and calling his reasoning retarded. Nobody tried to draw you or change the discussion and yet you seem stupefied that anyone could question your own conclusions.
For a Christian you are a pretty offensive and bigoted individual. You seem unable to accept the fact that someone may come to a different conclusion than you have. I never once said he was fabricated 300 years later, I said that is when Constantine established the Christian church. You never demonstrated jack shit. You kept referring to the Bible like it was a reliable document and then that old chestnut Tacitus. Quite how you can deduce that I am an ill educated man of no substance knowing fuck all about me is remarkable, is it a gift bestowed upon you by Jesus? As for Richard Dawkins which you seemed to think was like pulling out a trump card!...Ha, really Bilbo. The joy of being an atheist is that it frees one from the bond of having to let someone do the thinking for you. I don't not need Dawkins much as i respect him to tell me what to think. He is not the King of the atheists just one of the more vocal.
You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I am glad you find Miles so well read and funny but if you wish only to debate serious issues with him you need to do that in live chat. This is an open forum and not everybody is gonna blow smoke up your ass.
Ok some clarifications.
First, why did you deduce I was a Christian? Have you not read my other posts on the other boards? I don't think any church would accept me however low their numbers. I believe the Bible to be the best explanation of man's origins that is true. But I don't go to church, pray, speak to God, and I certainly don't believe He speaks to me.
Second. Referring to Tacitus, the greatest of all the Roman historians and the number one source for most of our knowledge of the Roman world as 'that old chestnut', is extraordinarily ignorant and the ultimate head in the sand mentality. Jesus was a real person, give it up, it's over.
Thirdly, the reason I mentioned Dawkins is that I regard Richard Dawkins as more knowledgable on the subject of the historicity of Jesus and the untruths of the Bible than you. Sorry about that, but I just do, and so will everybody else. He admits publically, that Jesus was a real person. That means your opinion on the matter of Jesus' historicity counts for shit. It's like you telling me you don't care that what Copernicus and Galilleo had to say about the motion of the sun, you have your own opinion. Well, you are entitled to it, but it's wrong and nobody cares.
Fourthly. How did I deduce you are an uneducated man? Simple, I have been reading your posts.
Five. Your quote You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't say that this means the claims about Jesus divinity must be true. Simply that it is absolutely certain that His early followers believed them to be true. They died willingly for their beliefs. No, that doesn't mean they were not wrong about His divinity, but it shows the level of conviction they had, a convciction that is impossible to explain if Jesus didn't even exist at all.
Consider all the cults you like, Waco, Jim Jones, Jehovah's Witness, Scientology etc. How many of them didn't have a founder? It's an absurd proposition, rejected by every major scholar, historian and even leading atheists. Again, you were wrong on this.
If you could admit you got it wrong and concede that Jesus was an histoical person although you reject all the miraculous claims about Him I could at least respect your position. But you still try and insist that Jesus was entirely mythical and that Tacitus and Dawkins, two men of far greater knowledge and stature than yourself were wrong.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Pacfan you and Bilbo really should get a room. If we are not supposed to take you literally than please provide a manual with which to decipher your Gibberish. Your practice of not answering scoffs, except of course with private grunts precludes me from pointing out the ridiculousness of the aloof stance you are taking. Your clearly superficial knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism, would go some way to explainig how having a humour bypass, is utterly inconsistent with those faiths traditions. Next time you tap into the storehouse of all knowledge try asking it, how whilst being provided with a brain ,you are somehow incapable of using it to decipher the progress of humanity. Early man worshipped because he was ignorant, knowledge when acquired makes even the most magical technologies like fire understandable. Children believe all kinds of fairy stories ,but then their brains evolve and they grow up. They realise these stories are convenient fictions to teach them morals and life lessons and move on. Sir Isaac Newton was not in an Alpha state of mind any more than a novelist constructing a plot is when he was musing. He was reflecting on acquired knowledge, and the problems of physics, not empty of mind focussing on nothing."If I have seen further than other men,' said Isaac Newton, 'it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Oh and don't forget "the first one to lose his cool loses";)
You are rather a strange man if I may say so.
When debating with you and Mars Ax I just stuck soley to facts and didn't get involved in any religious discussion whatsoever.
All I pointed out was that Jesus was a real historical figure. I proved it beyond reasonable doubt, and having nothing else to come at me with you attempted to change the subject and try and draw me to questions of Jesus' divintiy, miraculaous claims etc, none of which was part of the original discussion.
You and Mars insisted Jesus was a fabricated creation from 300 years after the supposed events of his lifetime.
I demonstrated that you were factually incorrect, and you started rambling about nonsense.
I won't bother to get an admission of error from you. You are an ill educated man and of no consequence. Instead I will merely repeat what Richard Dawkins, the most educated of athiests, and therefore someone worthy of debate said when challenged directly on the subject,
'If I have alluded to the fact that there are scholars who deny the existance of Christ, I take that back, he existed.'
That was all our argument was ever about. I proved my point. You were wrong. You are wrong about many other things too, but I don't rate your capacity to think and reason highly enough to debate you.
Miles is fun, as he is at least well read and funny. I'll just stick to debating serious issues with him.:)
I was talking to Pacman in the quote you have used above which you would have realised had you taken the time to read it.
Mars Ax was talking to Victor Charlie about "the Jesus described in the Gospels" and so was clearly talking about Jesus Christ the Divine. Not just a guy called Jesus.It was at this point YOU interjected and tried to take the moral high ground, sneering at Mars's argument and calling his reasoning retarded. Nobody tried to draw you or change the discussion and yet you seem stupefied that anyone could question your own conclusions.
For a Christian you are a pretty offensive and bigoted individual. You seem unable to accept the fact that someone may come to a different conclusion than you have. I never once said he was fabricated 300 years later, I said that is when Constantine established the Christian church. You never demonstrated jack shit. You kept referring to the Bible like it was a reliable document and then that old chestnut Tacitus. Quite how you can deduce that I am an ill educated man of no substance knowing fuck all about me is remarkable, is it a gift bestowed upon you by Jesus? As for Richard Dawkins which you seemed to think was like pulling out a trump card!...Ha, really Bilbo. The joy of being an atheist is that it frees one from the bond of having to let someone do the thinking for you. I don't not need Dawkins much as i respect him to tell me what to think. He is not the King of the atheists just one of the more vocal.
You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I am glad you find Miles so well read and funny but if you wish only to debate serious issues with him you need to do that in live chat. This is an open forum and not everybody is gonna blow smoke up your ass.
Ok some clarifications.
First, why did you deduce I was a Christian? Have you not read my other posts on the other boards? I don't think any church would accept me however low their numbers. I believe the Bible to be the best explanation of man's origins that is true. But I don't go to church, pray, speak to God, and I certainly don't believe He speaks to me.
Second. Referring to Tacitus, the greatest of all the Roman historians and the number one source for most of our knowledge of the Roman world as 'that old chestnut', is extraordinarily ignorant and the ultimate head in the sand mentality. Jesus was a real person, give it up, it's over.
Thirdly, the reason I mentioned Dawkins is that I regard Richard Dawkins as more knowledgable on the subject of the historicity of Jesus and the untruths of the Bible than you. Sorry about that, but I just do, and so will everybody else. He admits publically, that Jesus was a real person. That means your opinion on the matter of Jesus' historicity counts for shit. It's like you telling me you don't care that what Copernicus and Galilleo had to say about the motion of the sun, you have your own opinion. Well, you are entitled to it, but it's wrong and nobody cares.
Fourthly. How did I deduce you are an uneducated man? Simple, I have been reading your posts.
Five. Your quote
You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't say that this means the claims about Jesus divinity must be true. Simply that it is absolutely certain that His early followers believed them to be true. They died willingly for their beliefs. No, that doesn't mean they were not wrong about His divinity, but it shows the level of conviction they had, a convciction that is impossible to explain if Jesus didn't even exist at all.
Consider all the cults you like, Waco, Jim Jones, Jehovah's Witness, Scientology etc. How many of them didn't have a founder? It's an absurd proposition, rejected by every major scholar, historian and even leading atheists. Again, you were wrong on this.
If you could admit you got it wrong and concede that Jesus was an histoical person although you reject all the miraculous claims about Him I could at least respect your position. But you still try and insist that Jesus was entirely mythical and that Tacitus and Dawkins, two men of far greater knowledge and stature than yourself were wrong.
First here is your post in the original Do you ever doubt God's Existence thread
"I never doubt his existence at all.I used to be an atheist until I discovered Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. They converted me to Christianity and now I cannot comprehend how people cannot believe :-\"
OWNED
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Pacfan you and Bilbo really should get a room. If we are not supposed to take you literally than please provide a manual with which to decipher your Gibberish. Your practice of not answering scoffs, except of course with private grunts precludes me from pointing out the ridiculousness of the aloof stance you are taking. Your clearly superficial knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism, would go some way to explainig how having a humour bypass, is utterly inconsistent with those faiths traditions. Next time you tap into the storehouse of all knowledge try asking it, how whilst being provided with a brain ,you are somehow incapable of using it to decipher the progress of humanity. Early man worshipped because he was ignorant, knowledge when acquired makes even the most magical technologies like fire understandable. Children believe all kinds of fairy stories ,but then their brains evolve and they grow up. They realise these stories are convenient fictions to teach them morals and life lessons and move on. Sir Isaac Newton was not in an Alpha state of mind any more than a novelist constructing a plot is when he was musing. He was reflecting on acquired knowledge, and the problems of physics, not empty of mind focussing on nothing."If I have seen further than other men,' said Isaac Newton, 'it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Oh and don't forget "the first one to lose his cool loses";)
You are rather a strange man if I may say so.
When debating with you and Mars Ax I just stuck soley to facts and didn't get involved in any religious discussion whatsoever.
All I pointed out was that Jesus was a real historical figure. I proved it beyond reasonable doubt, and having nothing else to come at me with you attempted to change the subject and try and draw me to questions of Jesus' divintiy, miraculaous claims etc, none of which was part of the original discussion.
You and Mars insisted Jesus was a fabricated creation from 300 years after the supposed events of his lifetime.
I demonstrated that you were factually incorrect, and you started rambling about nonsense.
I won't bother to get an admission of error from you. You are an ill educated man and of no consequence. Instead I will merely repeat what Richard Dawkins, the most educated of athiests, and therefore someone worthy of debate said when challenged directly on the subject,
'If I have alluded to the fact that there are scholars who deny the existance of Christ, I take that back, he existed.'
That was all our argument was ever about. I proved my point. You were wrong. You are wrong about many other things too, but I don't rate your capacity to think and reason highly enough to debate you.
Miles is fun, as he is at least well read and funny. I'll just stick to debating serious issues with him.:)
I was talking to Pacman in the quote you have used above which you would have realised had you taken the time to read it.
Mars Ax was talking to Victor Charlie about "the Jesus described in the Gospels" and so was clearly talking about Jesus Christ the Divine. Not just a guy called Jesus.It was at this point YOU interjected and tried to take the moral high ground, sneering at Mars's argument and calling his reasoning retarded. Nobody tried to draw you or change the discussion and yet you seem stupefied that anyone could question your own conclusions.
For a Christian you are a pretty offensive and bigoted individual. You seem unable to accept the fact that someone may come to a different conclusion than you have. I never once said he was fabricated 300 years later, I said that is when Constantine established the Christian church. You never demonstrated jack shit. You kept referring to the Bible like it was a reliable document and then that old chestnut Tacitus. Quite how you can deduce that I am an ill educated man of no substance knowing fuck all about me is remarkable, is it a gift bestowed upon you by Jesus? As for Richard Dawkins which you seemed to think was like pulling out a trump card!...Ha, really Bilbo. The joy of being an atheist is that it frees one from the bond of having to let someone do the thinking for you. I don't not need Dawkins much as i respect him to tell me what to think. He is not the King of the atheists just one of the more vocal.
You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I am glad you find Miles so well read and funny but if you wish only to debate serious issues with him you need to do that in live chat. This is an open forum and not everybody is gonna blow smoke up your ass.
Ok some clarifications.
First, why did you deduce I was a Christian? Have you not read my other posts on the other boards? I don't think any church would accept me however low their numbers. I believe the Bible to be the best explanation of man's origins that is true. But I don't go to church, pray, speak to God, and I certainly don't believe He speaks to me.
Second. Referring to Tacitus, the greatest of all the Roman historians and the number one source for most of our knowledge of the Roman world as 'that old chestnut', is extraordinarily ignorant and the ultimate head in the sand mentality. Jesus was a real person, give it up, it's over.
Thirdly, the reason I mentioned Dawkins is that I regard Richard Dawkins as more knowledgable on the subject of the historicity of Jesus and the untruths of the Bible than you. Sorry about that, but I just do, and so will everybody else. He admits publically, that Jesus was a real person. That means your opinion on the matter of Jesus' historicity counts for shit. It's like you telling me you don't care that what Copernicus and Galilleo had to say about the motion of the sun, you have your own opinion. Well, you are entitled to it, but it's wrong and nobody cares.
Fourthly. How did I deduce you are an uneducated man? Simple, I have been reading your posts.
Five. Your quote
You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't say that this means the claims about Jesus divinity must be true. Simply that it is absolutely certain that His early followers believed them to be true. They died willingly for their beliefs. No, that doesn't mean they were not wrong about His divinity, but it shows the level of conviction they had, a convciction that is impossible to explain if Jesus didn't even exist at all.
Consider all the cults you like, Waco, Jim Jones, Jehovah's Witness, Scientology etc. How many of them didn't have a founder? It's an absurd proposition, rejected by every major scholar, historian and even leading atheists. Again, you were wrong on this.
If you could admit you got it wrong and concede that Jesus was an histoical person although you reject all the miraculous claims about Him I could at least respect your position. But you still try and insist that Jesus was entirely mythical and that Tacitus and Dawkins, two men of far greater knowledge and stature than yourself were wrong.
First here is your post in the original Do you ever doubt God's Existence thread
"I never doubt his existence at all.I used to be an atheist until I discovered Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. They converted me to Christianity and now I cannot comprehend how people cannot believe :-\"
OWNED
Secondly
"Even though the passage is authentic to Tacitus, it might be argued that Tacitus received his information about the origin of the Christian name from Christians themselves. This could be argued on six grounds: (1) Tacitus does not identify his source explicitly. (2) Tacitus anachronistically identifies Pilate as a procurator, when the proper title would have been prefect. (3) Tacitus refers to the founder of the name as 'Christus', while written records would presumably have used the name Jesus. (4) As meticulous as the Romans were, crucifixion records hardly went back nearly a century in time (the Annals being written c. 115 CE). (5) There is insufficient motive for Tacitus to research about this Christus in any detail, as the reference appears in Tacitus merely as an explanation of the origin of the name Christian, which in turn is being described only as an example of Nero's cruelty. (6) Finally, there would be no reason for Tacitus not to take the basic Christian story at face value, especially since the idea that they were of recent origin would correctly classify Christianity as a superstition."
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Bilbo you said
"Thirdly, the reason I mentioned Dawkins is that I regard Richard Dawkins as more knowledgable on the subject of the historicity of Jesus and the untruths of the Bible than you. Sorry about that, but I just do, and so will everybody else. He admits publically, that Jesus was a real person. That means your opinion on the matter of Jesus' historicity counts for shit. It's like you telling me you don't care that what Copernicus and Galilleo had to say about the motion of the sun, you have your own opinion. Well, you are entitled to it, but it's wrong and nobody cares."
How open minded of you Dawkins is not some higher authority that trumps everyone's opinion.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Bilbo you said
"Fourthly. How did I deduce you are an uneducated man? Simple, I have been reading your posts."
You obviously have not, and education is not simply about what you learn at school or University it is what you learn from experience, and I having had a wealth of life experience would not presume to deduce a man's education from his internet posts.I ask merely that you do the same.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Five. Your quote You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't say that this means the claims about Jesus divinity must be true. Simply that it is absolutely certain that His early followers believed them to be true. They died willingly for their beliefs. No, that doesn't mean they were not wrong about His divinity, but it shows the level of conviction they had, a convciction that is impossible to explain if Jesus didn't even exist at all.
Are you a Christian or not? if you do not believe Jesus rose again you are not a Christian. The fact is, if Jesus followers were disappointed in his being crucified by the Romans it would be entirely believable that they would make up his resurrection years later to inspire there fellow cult members. This would prove that the "Jesus described in the Gospels" was indeed a fabrication and not an historical figure, we know nothing about the Jesus who may have been an historical figure, only Jesus as described in the Gospels.
What we know about Jesus as described in the Gospels may well then all be fictional and I then would have to conclude the Gospels can not be accepted as evidence. With no evidence I do not find my position untenable at all.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Five. Your quote You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't say that this means the claims about Jesus divinity must be true. Simply that it is absolutely certain that His early followers believed them to be true. They died willingly for their beliefs. No, that doesn't mean they were not wrong about His divinity, but it shows the level of conviction they had, a convciction that is impossible to explain if Jesus didn't even exist at all.
Are you a Christian or not? if you do not believe Jesus rose again you are not a Christian. The fact is, if Jesus followers were disappointed in his being crucified by the Romans it would be entirely believable that they would make up his resurrection years later to inspire there fellow cult members. This would prove that the "Jesus described in the Gospels" was indeed a fabrication and not an historical figure, we know nothing about the Jesus who may have been an historical figure, only Jesus as described in the Gospels.
What we know about Jesus as described in the Gospels may well then all be fictional and I then would have to conclude the Gospels can not be accepted as evidence. With no evidence I do not find my position untenable at all.
I believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Do I expect you to believe it? No. Am I trying to present evidence of it to you? No. Is my believe in the truth of the Gospels at all relevant to the question of whether historians and scholars accept that Jesus was a real, living human being who actually walked this earth? No.
Jesus (Note I am not saying Christ) was an historical figure. He really did exist. Does this mean the Gospel's claims about him are true. No, of course not. But they merit attention and study in my opinion. I did pay attention, read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation and came away believing it to be the truth of man's origins.
Am I going to try and convince you? Not at all, I don't care if you believe it or not.
I have merely demonstrated that yours and Mars Ax position and beliefs about Jesus being a fictional character were wrong.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
First here is your post in the original Do you ever doubt God's Existence thread
"I never doubt his existence at all.I used to be an atheist until I discovered Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. They converted me to Christianity and now I cannot comprehend how people cannot believe :-\"
OWNED
Sorry but how does this own anything?
Your proof that Jesus is not an historical character is that quoute of mine above? :confused:
I'm baffled.
I'm just trying to imagine you convincing modern historians and scholars Jesus must have been made up because a poster on Saddos said '"I never doubt his existence at all.I used to be an atheist until I discovered Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. They converted me to Christianity and now I cannot comprehend how people cannot believe :-\".
:-X
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Five. Your quote You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”
I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't say that this means the claims about Jesus divinity must be true. Simply that it is absolutely certain that His early followers believed them to be true. They died willingly for their beliefs. No, that doesn't mean they were not wrong about His divinity, but it shows the level of conviction they had, a convciction that is impossible to explain if Jesus didn't even exist at all.
Are you a Christian or not? if you do not believe Jesus rose again you are not a Christian. The fact is, if Jesus followers were disappointed in his being crucified by the Romans it would be entirely believable that they would make up his resurrection years later to inspire there fellow cult members. This would prove that the "Jesus described in the Gospels" was indeed a fabrication and not an historical figure, we know nothing about the Jesus who may have been an historical figure, only Jesus as described in the Gospels.
What we know about Jesus as described in the Gospels may well then all be fictional and I then would have to conclude the Gospels can not be accepted as evidence. With no evidence I do not find my position untenable at all.
I believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Do I expect you to believe it? No. Am I trying to present evidence of it to you? No. Is my believe in the truth of the Gospels at all relevant to the question of whether historians and scholars accept that Jesus was a real, living human being who actually walked this earth? No.
Jesus (Note I am not saying Christ) was an historical figure. He really did exist. Does this mean the Gospel's claims about him are true. No, of course not. But they merit attention and study in my opinion. I did pay attention, read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation and came away believing it to be the truth of man's origins.
Am I going to try and convince you? Not at all, I din't vare if you believe it or not.
I have merely demonstrated that yours and Mars Ax position and beliefs about Jesus being a fictional character were wrong.
Respect for finally admitting your position, and yes it is relevant, just as the fact that i am an atheist will clearly impact upon my reasoning. Your belief in the Gospels is CRUCIAL as they are by far the most comprehensive record of a real living human being called Jesus walking this earth. I do not believe they are an accurate record that can be used as evidence, you obviously do. I respect your faith but there really is very little other secular confirmation of his existence.On this we will have to agree to disagree.
For 15 years I studied the Bible every day and preached the Gospel but than I began to question my beliefs and went and studied Sufism, Judaism, Buddism, Islam and many other faiths attending temples, synagogues, mosques and interfaith conferences, pagan prayer circles and all manner of religious experiences. It was only after all this that I came to a position of atheism. So to be labelled as an ill educated man and of no consequence clearly rankled me, but no way was i going to be the first to lose his cool and give pacfan any satisfaction.;D
PEACE
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
First here is your post in the original Do you ever doubt God's Existence thread
"I never doubt his existence at all.I used to be an atheist until I discovered Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. They converted me to Christianity and now I cannot comprehend how people cannot believe :-\"
OWNED
Sorry but how does this own anything?
Your proof that Jesus is not an historical character is that quoute of mine above? :confused:
I'm baffled.
I'm just trying to imagine you convincing modern historians and scholars Jesus must have been made up because a poster on Saddos said '
"I never doubt his existence at all.I used to be an atheist until I discovered Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. They converted me to Christianity and now I cannot comprehend how people cannot believe :-\".
:-X
I was simply answering your points one by one
Point 1 How did i deduce that you were a Christian ?
the owned bit was me being childish i apologise
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Respect for finally admitting your position, and yes it is relevant, just as the fact that i am an atheist will clearly impact upon my reasoning. Your belief in the Gospels is CRUCIAL as they are by far the most comprehensive record of a real living human being called Jesus walking this earth. I do not believe they are an accurate record that can be used as evidence, you obviously do. I respect your faith but there really is very little other secular confirmation of his existence.On this we will have to agree to disagree.
For 15 years I studied the Bible every day and preached the Gospel but than I began to question my beliefs and went and studied Sufism, Judaism, Buddism, Islam and many other faiths attending temples, synagogues, mosques and interfaith conferences, pagan prayer circles and all manner of religious experiences. It was only after all this that I came to a position of atheism. So to be labelled as an ill educated man and of no consequence clearly rankled me, but no way was i going to be the first to lose his cool and give pacfan any satisfaction.;D
PEACE
I've been a skeptic of god, the bible, jesus, et al, going back to my early teens, skepticism and/or critical thinking are just a big part of my nature. Religions have never seemed to me to be based in reality, and I never could bring myself to believe, what I knew in my heart not to be true.
Fortunately, my parents didn't "raise" me to be a christian, so I missed out on the biblical brainwashing that goes on in a lot of families, and I was given a chance to make up my own mind. The older I've gotten, the more I've been able to appreciate being able to think for myself, it's been a liberating experience.
I may end up going to hell, 'cause I hear that's where atheists go, but i'll have plenty of company/friends there, and besides, heaven is a bit overrated/overhyped. :-X
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Greenbeanz, you spent all that time preaching and trying to get inside different types of faith....and it took all of that to eventually become an atheist? I find that a little odd. Surely all you ever needed was a little common sense. I don't need to spend years inside a church to know that Christianity and Jesus worship is fundamentally absurd.
Just as you don't need to be an expert in economics to see that many experts talk out of their bottom, the same applies to religion. Most of it is common sense, you can see what is silly without the need to sacrifice already precious years on pointless things.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Something that hasn't been addressed if all of what Green and Mars say is true why academics as a whole do not share their beliefs? One would also think that after all of these years it wouldn't be hard to find secular evidence of a conscience decision to fabricate the life of Jesus. I mean if true we are talking about possibly the biggest ruse in history. Seems like it would be a hard thing to cover up over the ages.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Greenbeanz, you spent all that time preaching and trying to get inside different types of faith....and it took all of that to eventually become an atheist? I find that a little odd. Surely all you ever needed was a little common sense. I don't need to spend years inside a church to know that Christianity and Jesus worship is fundamentally absurd.
Just as you don't need to be an expert in economics to see that many experts talk out of their bottom, the same applies to religion. Most of it is common sense, you can see what is silly without the need to sacrifice already precious years on pointless things.
Miles you were fortunate to have not been brainwashed as a child, for every second of every minute of every day. When i finally got the courage to question those who brainwashed me I had to take the consequences which meant for me literally finding myself alone in the world. Part of my learning to function as a reasoning human being meant exploring other faiths and for this I make no apology. You may find it a little odd but fear overrides common sense when you believe the Devil is real, and the result of questioning your faith is being cast off and ignored by every family member and friend/acquaintance you have.
It is not only my experience that makes a nonsense out of religious apologists who think that religion is benign. I find Bilbo's assertion that reading Richard Dawkins turned him into a Christian, much odder.
