Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Ftr I also do not believe that Marquez's new chiseled look means he was juicing. When a guy of his stature goes on a special diet and hits the weights and tones up, a couple of pounds looks much more pronounced then the same weight gained by bigger men.

In addition his weight gain from the third fight was minimal and in fact only a pound. He actually dropped 2 pounds prior to the 4th fight against Fedchenko. If the guy was juicing surly he would put more weight on then a pound.

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If he wanted to put more weight on he would have if juicing but if he didn't want the extra weight he wouldn't have put it on.

Im not saying he did either. And if he was I wouldn't contribute the ko against Pac soley to juicing. How ever the juice could have gave him that extra snap, strength and endurance to get the ko.

Any fighter (or athlete) who uses PED's will get gains in weeks that would have normally taken months. That's unfair as shit especially in fighting.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Ftr I also do not believe that Marquez's new chiseled look means he was juicing. When a guy of his stature goes on a special diet and hits the weights and tones up, a couple of pounds looks much more pronounced then the same weight gained by bigger men.

In addition his weight gain from the third fight was minimal and in fact only a pound. He actually dropped 2 pounds prior to the 4th fight against Fedchenko. If the guy was juicing surly he would put more weight on then a pound.

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If he wanted to put more weight on he would have if juicing but if he didn't want the extra weight he wouldn't have put it on.

Im not saying he did either. And if he was I wouldn't contribute the ko against Pac soley to juicing. How ever the juice could have gave him that extra snap, strength and endurance to get the ko.

Any fighter (or athlete) who uses PED's will get gains in weeks that would have normally taken months. That's unfair as shit especially in fighting.

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He would have put more then a pound with that muscle look and would have probably been 147 not 143. His body is not any more proof of juicing then that punch was.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Ftr I also do not believe that Marquez's new chiseled look means he was juicing. When a guy of his stature goes on a special diet and hits the weights and tones up, a couple of pounds looks much more pronounced then the same weight gained by bigger men.

In addition his weight gain from the third fight was minimal and in fact only a pound. He actually dropped 2 pounds prior to the 4th fight against Fedchenko. If the guy was juicing surly he would put more weight on then a pound.

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If he wanted to put more weight on he would have if juicing but if he didn't want the extra weight he wouldn't have put it on.

Im not saying he did either. And if he was I wouldn't contribute the ko against Pac soley to juicing. How ever the juice could have gave him that extra snap, strength and endurance to get the ko.

Any fighter (or athlete) who uses PED's will get gains in weeks that would have normally taken months. That's unfair as shit especially in fighting.

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He would have put more then a pound with that muscle look and would have probably been 147 not 143. His body is not any more proof of juicing then that punch was.

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If he did it naturally he would have put on more than a pound with all that extra muscle.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Ftr I also do not believe that Marquez's new chiseled look means he was juicing. When a guy of his stature goes on a special diet and hits the weights and tones up, a couple of pounds looks much more pronounced then the same weight gained by bigger men.

In addition his weight gain from the third fight was minimal and in fact only a pound. He actually dropped 2 pounds prior to the 4th fight against Fedchenko. If the guy was juicing surly he would put more weight on then a pound.

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If he wanted to put more weight on he would have if juicing but if he didn't want the extra weight he wouldn't have put it on.

Im not saying he did either. And if he was I wouldn't contribute the ko against Pac soley to juicing. How ever the juice could have gave him that extra snap, strength and endurance to get the ko.

Any fighter (or athlete) who uses PED's will get gains in weeks that would have normally taken months. That's unfair as shit especially in fighting.

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He would have put more then a pound with that muscle look and would have probably been 147 not 143. His body is not any more proof of juicing then that punch was.

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He'd been trying to time Pac for how many rounds? Finally nailed it, and him.

Not to mention Pac has probably used PED's for years so if JMM did use for that fight then he just evened the field a bit. That KO probably should have happened in the first fight.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Ftr I also do not believe that Marquez's new chiseled look means he was juicing. When a guy of his stature goes on a special diet and hits the weights and tones up, a couple of pounds looks much more pronounced then the same weight gained by bigger men.

In addition his weight gain from the third fight was minimal and in fact only a pound. He actually dropped 2 pounds prior to the 4th fight against Fedchenko. If the guy was juicing surly he would put more weight on then a pound.

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If he wanted to put more weight on he would have if juicing but if he didn't want the extra weight he wouldn't have put it on.

Im not saying he did either. And if he was I wouldn't contribute the ko against Pac soley to juicing. How ever the juice could have gave him that extra snap, strength and endurance to get the ko.

Any fighter (or athlete) who uses PED's will get gains in weeks that would have normally taken months. That's unfair as shit especially in fighting.

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He would have put more then a pound with that muscle look and would have probably been 147 not 143. His body is not any more proof of juicing then that punch was.

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He'd been trying to time Pac for how many rounds? Finally nailed it, and him.

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Agreed as you know.

Cam are you telling me that journeyman don't juice they probably do it more then top guys but still cant win because they cant box well enough. It really is only unfair if most people aren't doing which i do not think is the case. If they are going to make the tests such joke they might as well make it legal to do.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Cam are you telling me that journeyman don't juice they probably do it more then top guys but still cant win because they cant box well enough. It really is only unfair if most people aren't doing which i do not think is the case. If they are going to make the tests such joke they might as well make it legal to do.

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No doubt journey men do.

Lets use this JMM vs Pac fight again for example. Pac is probably a rager. PED's likely gave him the ability, reaction, strength and reflexes to stay with JMM for 3 fights.

JMM comes in shredded for the 4th fight. Better than hes ever looked and at the age of 38!!! All the sudden the playing field is even and he KO's Pac in 6.

On an even playing field it would have been far more likely to happen in the first fight. Not to mention to 2nd and 3rd.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Cam are you telling me that journeyman don't juice they probably do it more then top guys but still cant win because they cant box well enough. It really is only unfair if most people aren't doing which i do not think is the case. If they are going to make the tests such joke they might as well make it legal to do.

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No doubt journey men do.

Lets use this JMM vs Pac fight again for example. Pac is probably a rager. PED's likely gave him the ability, reaction, strength and reflexes to stay with JMM for 3 fights.

JMM comes in shredded for the 4th fight. Better than hes ever looked and at the age of 38!!! All the sudden the playing field is even and he KO's Pac in 6.

On an even playing field it would have been far more likely to happen in the first fight. Not to mention to 2nd and 3rd.

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JMM only won 1 of those 4 fights. Not fair to JMM (if Pacs a juicer)

Can you pick out when he juiced because as far as i know he passed all the test. That is the problem with the unfair cant tell when any of them started to or if they might of stopped testing is bad. If you want fair your not going to get it with a system like we have now and do you really care if juicing was legal to do in sports. We as fans always look for the best showing so if it can enhance the entertainment i am not sure why it is still illegal to do it seems like a real big step back wards why would we not want better people to watch.

I like how Page 9 of the "Lets end the Mike Tyson debate" now includes Juan Manuel Marquez and steroids too!

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I like how Page 9 of the "Lets end the Mike Tyson debate" now includes Juan Manuel Marquez and steroids too!

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I was wondering the same. Tyson was not on PED drugs.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Can you pick out when he juiced because as far as i know he passed all the test. That is the problem with the unfair cant tell when any of them started to or if they might of stopped testing is bad. If you want fair your not going to get it with a system like we have now and do you really care if juicing was legal to do in sports. We as fans always look for the best showing so if it can enhance the entertainment i am not sure why it is still illegal to do it seems like a real big step back wards why would we not want better people to watch.

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I hate the fact that you cant look at a champion fighter these days and know if they did it fair or not.

If a fighter does get caught that will change my entire opinion of them. To me it means they are weak and scared and not even true fighters. They are to scared to do it without PED's. Shortcuts aren't the way of a true fighter imo.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I like how Page 9 of the "Lets end the Mike Tyson debate" now includes Juan Manuel Marquez and steroids too!

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I was wondering the same. Tyson was not on PED drugs.

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And the thing is we didn't even come close to ending the Tyson debate.

I think it is funny you call anyone who gets in the ring scared have you ever done anything as daring i doubt you have ever in your life. As for the peds fuck yea they do them if they can make more money stay longer there on borrowed time, shit you shoot up to if it meant you could keep making money.

As for Tyson he simple a top ten near the bottom because he lost all his big fights damn near. But he did have a good run before he got smashed. Him losing to top dogs in the 90's Lewis and Holyfeild don't really help his case to be near the top.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

I think it is funny you call anyone who gets in the ring scared have you ever done anything as daring i doubt you have ever in your life. As for the peds fuck yea they do them if they can make more money stay longer there on borrowed time, shit you shoot up to if it meant you could keep making money.

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I feel you on that. Jumping the ring still takes balls.

Im in the ring damn near every day. Was strung out for like 10 years so never messed with ammy's. Only done like hooks for books type things.

Its simple:

Weak fighter- "I need juice to help me keep up with the competition"

Real fighter- "Bring the juicer on im tougher anyway"

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Originally Posted by Mr140

As for Tyson he simple a top ten near the bottom because he lost all his big fights damn near. But he did have a good run before he got smashed. Him losing to top dogs in the 90's Lewis and Holyfeild don't really help his case to be near the top.

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I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

I hate the fact that you cant look at a champion fighter these days and know if they did it fair or not.

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You can't make fair out of fight. There's no such thing.

RE:"To me it means they are weak and scared and not even true fighters."

Are you still on drugs or suffering residual effects?

These men are in general opportunistic. Give an inch, they'll take your head off. Show weakness, they'll attack it. Many of these men talk quite openly about their fear getting in the ring to do hand-to-hand combat.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

RE:"To me it means they are weak and scared and not even true fighters."

Are you still on drugs or suffering residual effects?

These men are in general opportunistic. Give an inch, they'll take your head off. Show weakness, they'll attack it. Many of these men talk quite openly about their fear getting in the ring to do hand-to-hand combat.

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Definately a bit of an over statement. Really didn't mean to call anyone who jumps in the ring scared. I meant more along the lines of scared to lose.

Whats a fighter want the most? To be the best and test themselves. To be the toughest. Of course many will do whatever it takes.

I think many are blinded by wanting to win and be the best and forget about wanting to find out how tough the truly are. I also think in the end they would have to regret it (using PED's)because with the extra help they didn't truly find out what they were made of. Even with all their achievements they know they had help.

Ya forgot about professional prizefighters fight for money...

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Ya forgot about professional prizefighters fight for money...

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Another reason why especially journey men fighter would turn to juice, good point.

I've had enough of attempting a sensible, intelligent discourse with you; it's clearly beyond your drug-damaged capabilities. All you do is get my panties in a bunch; you'll get no christmas card from me, cambay411.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

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Yep. In previous fights, Marquez had hurt Pacquiao and even staggered him with the right cross counter, even at 125 lbs, but he wasn't landing it exactly right. After 42 rds, he finally landed it exactly right. And, Boxer4Life, bigger muscles don't make you a better puncher...

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bigger muscles dont, but PED's do

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

I've had enough of attempting a sensible, intelligent discourse with you; it's clearly beyond your drug-damaged capabilities. All you do is get my panties in a bunch; you'll get no christmas card from me, cambay411.

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I don't understand the insult. I also don't understand how it isn't clear that usng PED's is cheating and can provide an unfair advantage to any athlete.

However I do see the logic in may of your points so I can defiantely agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by Mr140

I think it is funny you call anyone who gets in the ring scared have you ever done anything as daring i doubt you have ever in your life. As for the peds fuck yea they do them if they can make more money stay longer there on borrowed time, shit you shoot up to if it meant you could keep making money.

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Its simple:

Weak fighter- "I need juice to help me keep up with the competition"

Real fighter- "Bring the juicer on im tougher anyway"

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Yea, clearly that's about the jist of it:rolleyes: I guarantee that you have that damn near backwards man, journeymen cant AFFORD to take PED's properly and still get around the piss tests, if nothing else. To seriously benefit from something like HGH or EPO, you need supervision and a good deal of cash to get it all. Whats more, is that to think boxers who happen to be elite or established are somehow less moraly compromised than any others is fairly laughable. All kinds of elite fighters, or athletes of any sort are juicing, all the time.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by Mr140

I think it is funny you call anyone who gets in the ring scared have you ever done anything as daring i doubt you have ever in your life. As for the peds fuck yea they do them if they can make more money stay longer there on borrowed time, shit you shoot up to if it meant you could keep making money.

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Its simple:

Weak fighter- "I need juice to help me keep up with the competition"

Real fighter- "Bring the juicer on im tougher anyway"

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Yea, clearly that's about the jist of it:rolleyes: I guarantee that you have that damn near backwards man, journeymen cant AFFORD to take PED's properly and still get around the piss tests, if nothing else. To seriously benefit from something like HGH or EPO, you need supervision and a good deal of cash to get it all. Whats more, is that to think boxers who happen to be elite or established are somehow less moraly compromised than any others is fairly laughable. All kinds of elite fighters, or athletes of any sort are juicing, all the time.

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That shits easy to get and not even that expensive from what I hear. I know several weight lifters who take several different types all at once. From what I hear HGH is the most expensive but is still affordable.

Also, I wasn't aware it costs to get around the drug tests. I thought they just quit a week or two before they got tested and let the testosterone levels taper down.

Elite athletes are more so morally obligated to not use PED's. They have the gifts and the money. If they aren't going to keep their sport real then who is?

Like I said I see some of your points but I am obviously 100% against PED's. Any athlete who uses PED's is basically lieing and saying "i am this good" when they really aren't.

And obviously some of us disagree about how much juice actually helps an athlete. But it doesn't matter how much it helps because even the smallest boost can make huge differences.

ANd the fact is juice improves an athletes performance allowing them to do things they couldn't otherwise.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

So since this is a debate just how would Tyson do against the champs of the past and their competition?


Starting around 1906: Left out the likes of Corbett, Fitzy, Jeffries and Sullivan.

Call it catharsis. Been seeing these threads since the internet was invented.

Tommy Burns. Tyson destroys him and anybody he beat legitimately.

Jack Johnson. With the exception of Jeanette, Langford and Mcvea who would pose problems for Mike I think he waxes everyone on Johnson’s ledger and beats Jack himself.

Dempsey and Willard. Tyson beats the piss out of both of them and anyone on both of their charts.

Tunney. He never defended once he won it but head to head I just don’t see him keeping Mike off him and with or without the neutral corner rule I think he leaves the ring on his back.

Schmeling. Tyson beats him anyone he did with the exception of Louis and if people are honest with themselves there is a chance he gets to Louis also.

Sharkey. Tyson slaughters him beats all he did.

Carnera. Ditto

Baer. Tyson v Max would have been fun to watch. Tyson beats everybody he ever fought.

Braddock. Tyson again.

Louis. I would tend to lean with Louis and I think a prime Walcott would be tough on Tyson. I think a prime Ezzard could beat Tyson. Tyson beats up everyone else on Joe’s hit list.

Charles. See above and I think guys like Johnson and Satterfield would have been good scraps with Mike. Can’t discount some of those Murderers Row guys with anyone really although they all may have been too small in their prime.

Jersey Joe. Essentially covered.

Marciano. The Rock deserves his respect but he would not last long with Tyson nor would anyone he fought when he fought them. He never fought any of the guys already mentioned in their prime or even close to it.

Floyd Patterson. He gets blasted out by Tyson and in Liston like fashion. Speaking of Sonny that is a hell of a fight. They could easily split a couple. Laugh if you will but I think Chuvalo’s durability troubles Mike but Tyson beats everyone else Floyd did.

Johansson. Tyson rubs him out along with everyone he fought.

Liston. Hell of a fight between the two but once again nobody he beat bothers Mike. Williams gives him a go but that’s about it

Terrell. Tyson beats him and anyone he beat except one that he lost to.

Ali. Here is where Tyson runs into some trouble. I’ll leave out those already mentioned.
Frazier was my favourite hev but I don’t think he hangs with Tyson. Mike was faster, had better feet and head movement and concussive power from both sides. Hell of a fight but I think Mike prevails. Norton's crab style may have given issues to the likes of Ali and Holmes but it simply does not work with Tyson. It’s a 50/50 fight

Foreman. Frazier's fight simply does not reflect how a Tyson fight pans out. Nobody really got to Foreman prior to Ron Lyle. Tyson gets to him and once he decks Foreman his finishing kick would finish the job. Speaking of Lyle imo he has a much better chance at Tyson then Foreman despite being beaten by him. That’s another 50/50 fight. I think Jimmy Young has the goods to beat Tyson. Not much hope for Earnie I’m afraid and Leon might lose his life. I think Mike at his best beats any version of Holmes. I believe a prime Ali beats Mike but it’s not a walk in the park.

Holmes. Anyone Holmes beat Mike beats with perhaps a few exceptions. I think a more experienced Witherspoon gives Tyson some issues and a prime Mercer. We all know that Holyfield beat Mike but I don’t think he beats the late eighties version or its certainly not clear that he would.

The 80’s and 90’s are pretty self explanatory since he was in them and the only two up to say 1999 that beat a prime Tyson are most likely Lennox and Vitali. It’s hard to know what happened for sure to Mike on that fateful night in Tokyo but to his credit Douglas fought a perfect fight and probably could not have done it twice given how he looked against Holyfield. Bowe probably would have given him a good scrap. Moorer would be in a coma.

From 2000 on I again do not see anyone other then Lewis or Vitali that beat a prime Mike including all the belt holders and anyone they fought. If Sanders was serious he may have had a chance but Mike cruises through.

Wlad. The Wlad of today might have a shot but nobody on his list does.


My conclusion: This is just my opinion based on the whole picture. I never even liked Tyson and kept going out of my way to see his fights hoping he would lose. As much as Leonard stopping Hearns in the 14th was one of my worst nights, seeing Tyson on all fours reaching for his mouth piece was a highlight. My personal feelings are simply not relevant.

Tyson is an ATG and 1st ballot hall of famer.
Tyson is a Top 10 ATG heavyweight.
Tyson is arguably a Top 5 ATG heavyweight.

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Good post.

I agree that the only person I see being able to beat a prime Tyson was Ali in his prime.

The prime Ali for me, was his 1966 Cleveland Williams fight. The prime Tyson was when he first won his title aganist Berbick

Who would win ?

As I say for me, Ali.

Not so much because Ali would have outboxed and outdanced him. More that Ali would have took all the punishment Tyson could dish out. Some past great heavyweaights may have been able to hang on for lopsided UD for Tyson but I just see Ali being able to keep popping and slashing and sticking and coming back for more and more and taking Tysons shots and either stopping him late or winning a UD.

Now Ali would have to had take an INCREDIBLE amount punishment and we would probably want a Steve Smoger referee who did'nt stop fights easily because I see Ali taken shots here maybe even worse than even in the Thriller in Manila and Rumble In Jungle but I see Ali prevailing in the end.

Ali had a great chin, heart and courage not to mention a fantastic boxer too, he had in built radar to escape from punches and could tie his opponent up. All in all.

Tyson is ATG. No question. That is judging him in his prime. A persons prime does not mean age wise as Tyson was still only 24 when he lost to Douglas. Prime means when he was at most focused to boxing physically and mentally when he did not have any distractions outside the ring. When he was hungry and wanted it. By Douglas Tyson got married, played around with women, spent money, Don King, Hangers on, Cars, Mansion.

He lived the lifestyle

As Mickey says in the Rocky films "The worst thing a fighter can do is get civilised"

Even if Tyson could beat Louis, Ali or Holmes I still do not have him above them as they has longevity and consistency to be classed as true greats.

I love how the "let's end the debate" thread ended up being 10 pages of debating.

Well bean if we are going to have to end a debate we might as well have a long one before it ends. I mean if we were going to do a Tyson Ali thing again would of already been 30 pages. I seen some good points we even talk about steroid use as well just get it in one big thread lol.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Well bean if we are going to have to end a debate we might as well have a long one before it ends. I mean if we were going to do a Tyson Ali thing again would of already been 30 pages. I seen some good points we even talk about steroid use as well just get it in one big thread lol.

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Oh I wasn't being sarcastic, I enjoy the thread lol

I still can't believe people think guys like Ken Norton, Joe Frazier or Rocky Marciano would have a shot against a prime Tyson

Not sure why you think Mike walks over Marciano ! Kennys style wouldn't lend very well against Mike plus Kenny was notoriously a slow started who like to get a feel for the opponent and that alone doesn't set to good against high volumn guys like Mike! Same with Joe, his one handed attack is a liability against Mike!

Marciano was a tremendous competitor first! He could hurt ANYONE with either hand and was a terrific body puncher who judged distance as well as anyone who fought! He could counter with either hand and did work in combination too! He slipped inside and outside and could get underneath the taller guys also!!
Size; Tysons best was 5'9" 215lbs
Size; Rockys best was 5'11" 191lbs.............to me theres no advantages with size comparisons from height to reach. I like Marcianos work rate over Mike once they get passed 4 rounds! Both could get in trouble early but I think Rocky has an edge as the rounds go bye!

This could sell any venue out and the gate would be insane along with the PPV, if these men fought each other 3 times they'd never have to fight again!! Then again one or both wouldn't be the same again probably either!

Ray.

Rocky was not taller than Tyson stop making things up to suit your fighter. :)

Prime Foreman would have been a horrible match up for Tyson.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

Prime Foreman would have been a horrible match up for Tyson.

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Prime Foreman was raw, slow and one dimensional just as Ali described him as Frankenstein. Tyson would have enjoyed punching at the gaps in his defence.

Foreman would have caught him coming in just like he did Frazier.

I agree Tyson had better movement and power than Frazier. It wouldn't matter if Foreman moved like Frankenstein, Tyson would come to him. And Forerman would have caught him with his timing.

Not to mention Foremans footwork was way better than he got credit for.