Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

[Boxer4life]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

[El Kabong]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

You left out Mariusz Wach who also tried to use a glove that had padding removed from it...but that's cool.

[IamInuit]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

[bradlee180]

I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

Yep. In previous fights, Marquez had hurt Pacquiao and even staggered him with the right cross counter, even at 125 lbs, but he wasn't landing it exactly right. After 42 rds, he finally landed it exactly right. And, Boxer4Life, bigger muscles don't make you a better puncher...

[erics44]

without a doubt tyson was the most exciting thing that has happened in boxing in my memory

i doubt i will ever experience that kind of thril again

i think a prime tyson would have beaten Ali, im not sure he would have beaten the bigger fighters/champions since his reign but its a different era now

[cambay411]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

Exactly, he had three previous fights in which he couldn't ko Pac. Then all the sudden he comes out shredded and gets the ko. Looks devious imo.

Who knows maybe JMM wasn't even on roids but one cant say that doesn't seem iffy.

Most of the reason you guys are giving me that steroids doesn't matter just proves that they do matter in my eyes. I don't know we must be on two different wave lengths.

[cambay411]

Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

Ok could Holyfield have beat Bowe in there second fight without roids? Ask an ATG, Hoyfield, if roids mean the difference between good and great.

I love Holyfield but if you research there is some serious evidence against him.

[Mr140]

Yea camboy but your missing some points your self if Holyfeild was using steroids his whole career which is like a 26 year career and never tested positive for a fight. So if a guy that high profile was never caught in or before or after a fight then it does not really matter because if he can get away with it then everyone damn near can. I think most people today are on roids or other forums of it and have been for a long time. So when the top guys face one another it does not matter who using because good chance both are so who really cares.

[cambay411]

Yea camboy but your missing some points your self if Holyfeild was using steroids his whole career which is like a 26 year career and never tested positive for a fight. So if a guy that high profile was never caught in or before or after a fight then it does not really matter because if he can get away with it then everyone damn near can. I think most people today are on roids or other forums of it and have been for a long time. So when the top guys face one another it does not matter who using because good chance both are so who really cares.

I see that point but to say who really cares because everyone is on it is bad logic I believe.

I'll tell you why I care is because its cheating. What would the fighter have been without it. Take a smart fighter who is a journey men level fighter and give him roids and he could be a top contender.

Take a contender give him roids and all the sudden hes fighting in championship fights.

[cambay411]

If you give an athlete PED's its gonna take him up a couple levels just like if you take those PED's away its gonna bring them down a couple levels.

Take Barry Bonds 70 some home runs in a season and take that down to 60. Take a fighter who uses PED's SD victories and turn those into UD losses.

[p4pking]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

Exactly, he had three previous fights in which he couldn't ko Pac. Then all the sudden he comes out shredded and gets the ko. Looks devious imo.

Who knows maybe JMM wasn't even on roids but one cant say that doesn't seem iffy.

Most of the reason you guys are giving me that steroids doesn't matter just proves that they do matter in my eyes. I don't know we must be on two different wave lengths.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Marquez(or most anyone) is/was on roids, but to attribute the Pac KO to that alone is nuts man. PAcquiao got reckless with seconds left in the round having had JMM hurt himself, and JUMPED into the punch. You never ever see that in top fights, his feet were both off the ground when it landed! I'm not sure my mother wouldn't knock some guys out if they tried that. Otherwise it's exactly the same kind of counter Marquez hit him with plenty throughout the first 3 fights. If those two could fight in exactly that same form 50 times, that would have only happened the one time. Nothing iffy about the KO whatsoever.

[bradlee180]

Take a smart fighter who is a journey men level fighter and give him roids and he could be a top contender.

No other way to say it, this is just absolute nonsense...

One of the main reasons that fighters use steroids is for fast recovery from injuries in an injury-plagued sport.

[cambay411]

Take a smart fighter who is a journey men level fighter and give him roids and he could be a top contender.

No other way to say it, this is just absolute nonsense...

One of the main reasons that fighters use steroids is for fast recovery from injuries in an injury-plagued sport.

A smart fighter who lacks athleticism will benefit from the strength, speed, endurance, reflex and etc boost than a fighter who is already gifted in those areas. That's why I said smart fighter.

Anyone, one of the main reasons that fighters use performance enhancing drugs is for the strength, speed and etc boost. Of course they use it for fast recovery too.

[El Kabong]

without a doubt tyson was the most exciting thing that has happened in boxing in my memory

i doubt i will ever experience that kind of thril again

i think a prime tyson would have beaten Ali, im not sure he would have beaten the bigger fighters/champions since his reign but its a different era now

He did beat Frank Bruno twice....and we all know how you feel about him

[IamInuit]

Ftr I also do not believe that Marquez's new chiseled look means he was juicing. When a guy of his stature goes on a special diet and hits the weights and tones up, a couple of pounds looks much more pronounced then the same weight gained by bigger men.

In addition his weight gain from the third fight was minimal and in fact only a pound. He actually dropped 2 pounds prior to the 4th fight against Fedchenko. If the guy was juicing surly he would put more weight on then a pound.