Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Ah, but remember, I saId who comes CLOSE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Ah, but remember, I saId who comes CLOSE
i see where your coming from but Ali ko'd Foreman, who wasnt ko'd again even when fighting in his late 40s. He also knocked out Bonavena which Frazier couldnt do in 2 fights. He stopped Liston, Frazier, quarry, all top guys. I think he'd more power than hes given credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseDon't agree with Ali. His power was weak compare to other top HeavyweightsQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
With respect,and i know everybody has their own opinion, but how can you possibly say that Ali isnt anywhere near close to being the perfect fighter? Look at his attributes; Speed,great footwork, balance, boxing ability, temperment, great jab, combinations, great right-cross, ability to take a punch, and courage. He wasnt the biggest puncher ever but he more than punched his weight (ask foreman,bonavena,liston) but most of all, when his back was to the wall, he had a will to win like i have rarely seen in the ring. its just my opinion but i would like to be informed if im wrong with any of the aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou might aswell say an almost perfect fighter like Muhammad Ali, wouldn't have gotten close decision win off fighters like Doug Jones. But the fact is even fighters that look unbeatable on one night, can look very beatable in another fight, even the greatest have off nights or a style that cancel's there one out. And personally i don't think Muhammad Ali is anywhere near close, to the perfect fighter by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI don't think Salvador Sanchez had great one punch power, although it was better than Ali's, he tended to break guys down systematically in most of his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Michael Spinks was a pretty complete fighter at LHW. I disagree with Duran though. For me a perfect fighter never does what he does in his 2nd fight with Leonard.
no question Holmes is fast. no question. Top 5 nevermind top 10. I think he was a little underated but then again he'd only himself to blame for that by having so many soft defences and not fighting to unify the heavyweight title. Great boxer though and great heart. How he got up from earnie shavers right hand still amazes me, more so each time i watch itQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBIm actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident made him cautious, like when he dismantled Thomas Tate for example. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI agree on the first 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.
Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.
Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.
Arguello I agree on.
Because he clearly wasn't, he actually done most things wrong. Leaning back with your chin in the air, is a big no/no. Yes he was a great athlete who was fast, but his skill set was far from perfect. He rarely threw any hooks, he was wide open for left hooks and he was open to body shots.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmaff36With respect,and i know everybody has their own opinion, but how can you possibly say that Ali isnt anywhere near close to being the perfect fighter? Look at his attributes; Speed,great footwork, balance, boxing ability, temperment, great jab, combinations, great right-cross, ability to take a punch, and courage. He wasnt the biggest puncher ever but he more than punched his weight (ask foreman,bonavena,liston) but most of all, when his back was to the wall, he had a will to win like i have rarely seen in the ring. its just my opinion but i would like to be informed if im wrong with any of the aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou might aswell say an almost perfect fighter like Muhammad Ali, wouldn't have gotten close decision win off fighters like Doug Jones. But the fact is even fighters that look unbeatable on one night, can look very beatable in another fight, even the greatest have off nights or a style that cancel's there one out. And personally i don't think Muhammad Ali is anywhere near close, to the perfect fighter by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
And he relied alot on athletism and he didn't really have, much technical skills IMO. If he was close to a perfect fighter, he wouldn't of been dropped like a sack against Henry Cooper. Nor would he have got a razor thin decision, against Doug Jones when he was near enough at his peak.
He had heart, chin, speed, footwork, like you said but again. I could just name as many flaws. I think an almost perfect fighter would be someone like Floyd Mayweather Jr, he has almost no glaring weaknesses.
By the way welcome to the forum, you sound like you know your stuff.
Well to be honest i think he fought, pretty much everyone he needed to fight at that time. I know he was supposed to fight Greg Page. But he went on too lose to Trevor Berbick, Tim Witherspoon, David Bey, all Larry Holmes victims.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmaff36no question Holmes is fast. no question. Top 5 nevermind top 10. I think he was a little underated but then again he'd only himself to blame for that by having so many soft defences and not fighting to unify the heavyweight title. Great boxer though and great heart. How he got up from earnie shavers right hand still amazes me, more so each time i watch itQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBIm actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident made him cautious, like when he dismantled Thomas Tate for example. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
And i also heard that he was supposed to fight, Gerrie Coetzee. But he didn't last long enough and was beaten badly in the later rounds, by Mike Weaver. Maybe you can tell me some others, because i wasn't around in that era as im only 19 myself.
19?!!!! No wonder you called me an "old man." EErrragh. :angryxo4:
Do you know who Fighting Harrada is? He comes very close as well. Also, Galaxy.
I know who is but i haven't seen much footage of him, i've seen a few Khaosai Galaxy's fights. One of the best stalking fighters i've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
Here are two very, very good fighters (and both Hall of Famers) in action a=gainst each other. Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft1JgSqHzTM
I'd say who comes close to being the perfect fighter I will go on the edge and say the perfect fighters are Rocky Marciano,Ricardo Lopez,Joe Calzaghe (at the moment). Yes there are all undefeated and sure they have flaws but that's what works in this sport. Do what your good at and keep at it. If I am a power punching heavyweight am I going to simply concentrate on footwork and ring generalship? These three are the perfect fighter's. No Marciano didn't have great foot speed and didn't really look good in the ring but he got it to work with him.
Ricardo Lopez a tremendous gifted looking fighter no he didn't move up in weight to really dazzle us to see how far he could go up in weight and multiple different belts. Is that really a flaw?
Now I know people will really rip into me with Joe Calzaghe but did he not beat everyone also put in front of him and do it pretty easily I must say. Sure he didn't have Marciano's pop or Lopez's ring smarts but damn he sure as hell slapped the hell out of opponent's.
These are my perfect fighter's any flaws that you seen with these fighter's they made it work to the advantage, Hence the reason for their zero losses.
Sanchez and Jofre sustained their greatness for a lengthy period of time. Ali did not IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBut if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.
Thanks. I take your point regarding Ali being somewhat unorthadox and your right about relying on his reflexes to evade punches, but that was all part of his make-up. I've seen some fantastic fighters try to do the same and getting dropped, leonard(top 10 pound 4 pound) for one, but none could do it like Ali (im talking 65-67 here). The original topic was about the perfect fighter and i dont think theres such a thing. everyone has flaws. Maybe i've got my ali blinkers on but his masterclass when defeating cleveland williams comes as close as your gonna get to perfection.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBecause he clearly wasn't, he actually done most things wrong. Leaning back with your chin in the air, is a big no/no. Yes he was a great athlete who was fast, but his skill set was far from perfect. He rarely threw any hooks, he was wide open for left hooks and he was open to body shots.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmaff36With respect,and i know everybody has their own opinion, but how can you possibly say that Ali isnt anywhere near close to being the perfect fighter? Look at his attributes; Speed,great footwork, balance, boxing ability, temperment, great jab, combinations, great right-cross, ability to take a punch, and courage. He wasnt the biggest puncher ever but he more than punched his weight (ask foreman,bonavena,liston) but most of all, when his back was to the wall, he had a will to win like i have rarely seen in the ring. its just my opinion but i would like to be informed if im wrong with any of the aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And he relied alot on athletism and he didn't really have, much technical skills IMO. If he was close to a perfect fighter, he wouldn't of been dropped like a sack against Henry Cooper. Nor would he have got a razor thin decision, against Doug Jones when he was near enough at his peak.
He had heart, chin, speed, footwork, like you said but again. I could just name as many flaws. I think an almost perfect fighter would be someone like Floyd Mayweather Jr, he has almost no glaring weaknesses.
By the way welcome to the forum, you sound like you know your stuff.
With respect, i can understand you vouching for marciano and lopez, but calzaghe? JC was an above average champ at best, certainly no all-time great. I saw JC slag off Roy Jones jnr as, and i quote, "finished 4 or 5 years ago" and i agreed with him. He was right, jones was finished. But to turn round 6 months later (after he signed to fight him)and try to say that Jones still had gas in the tank is nothing short of insulting peoples intelligence. Have a look at his defences and tell me how many were in the top 10 of the other, more prestigeous governing bodies. I may be wrong but i counted 6. Now im not here to slag off calzaghe as he comes across as a decent enough guy and the name of the game is to make as much money as you can and get out with your senses intact, but to claim to be an all-time great is nonsense. Some people point to his unbeaten(and well padded) record but another british guy from basildon called terry marsh was an unbeaten world champion and im sure he wouldnt claim to be a superstar. Nowadays unbeaten records dont carry the clout they once did. Can you imagine if Valeuv hadnt lost to chagrev (i think) he'd have now broken marcianos record!!! Blasphemy!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
Great call with Jofre. Theres a local guy where i live who sadly passed away 2 weeks ago called john caldwell who lost his world title to Jofre in the early 60s. I watched local boys watching the big fights on the big screens in bars on a saturday night, whooping and cheering for their favourite fighters, blissfully unaware that the elderly guy sipping his pint quietly at the end of the bar, was a former world champ when it meant something and was a passport to a fantastic era in boxing. Ignorance is bliss eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
Mike McCallum
Carlos Monzon
Tony Tubbs was a excellent fighter - no chin.:(