Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
So the Ring should just post their opinions right?
So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?
That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts. :rolleyes:
Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.
How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?
If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?
To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.
You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.
If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.
All I'm saying is that all rankings are open for interpretation. There is no accurate ranking, you should be open to that. A magazine interpretation is just one of many. Individual opinions mean just as much sometimes.
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.
How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?
If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?
To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.
You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.
If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.
All I'm saying is that all rankings are open for interpretation. There is no accurate ranking, you should be open to that. A magazine interpretation is just one of many. Individual opinions mean just as much sometimes.
The Ring rankings arn't just a magazine though as they have immense prestige in the world of boxing even taking precedent over the alphabet belts.
Especially in the last few years we've seen many fights announced as being for the Ring Championship, or the fighter being regarded by the Ring Magazine as p4p one of the best in the world.
It DOES has authority and significance and in that sense is an official ranking system, unlike for example the Boxing Talk rankings list or BBC's p4p lists which are generally shit.
Setanta for example have David Haye in their top 10, and Chris John at 8 presumably becuase they had the rights to screen his fight with Rocky Juarez.
The Ring rankings though are respected and carry weigh within the boxing world and hence cannot be based on mere personal opinion.
If you are talking about any other ranking body I couldn't care less who they have in their top 10 but the Ring magazine's rankings are supposed to restore credibility and objectivity to the question of 'who are boxing's best?'.
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
So the Ring should just post their opinions right?
So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?
That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts. :rolleyes:
Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.
How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?
If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?
To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.
You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.
If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1,
Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.
Mighty Mike without a doubt, no P4P list can be taken seriously without him at its pinnacle.
I do agree with Bilbo though, whilst I do think that Marquez is #1, the fact remains that The Ring should only do these rankings on actual fight results, although it does make exceptions for bizarre decisions that are basically robberies (see Humberto Soto & Librado Andrade's ratings actually going up after their fights with Lorenzo & Bute). However, even though I thought JMM won, there is no way that fight was a robbery, it was much too close for that. I do believe the rankings are done by committee anyway so that should make sure that the system is fair. Although anyone who somehow thought ODLH actually won against PBF, clearly doesn't actually know shit about boxing. If someone like that was in charge of The Ring then I think its legitimacy would be damaged. I do think JMM is #1, but for me I cant see how someone could complain about Pacquiao being #1.
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Man i love this forum...
I am a die-hard pacfan (which pains me to admit that on this forum)
I read posts constantly, i just don't hit the reply button enough..
On Topic:
I have to go with Bilbo on this one, and not because i am a Pac fan. If the shoe was on the other foot and Marquez squeeked out that split decision during their last encounter and was ranked P4P #1. No matter how much i thought Pac won the fight i would have no basis saying Pacman deserves to be #1. Regardless of who we feel won a fight. The Rankings have to have some type of boundries. The case of Marg/Cotto/Mosely doesn't apply here. Its all speculation when it comes to Pac/JMM and the opponents they have faced. Neither party has faced the same opposition besides MAB. And some have MAB beating JMM. That is exactly why you can't use speculation on P4P when the two fighters you are comparing HAVE fought one another and one of those fighters has the "W" on his record. Whether you agree with it or not.
It all boils down to JMM "technically" lost to Pac. Putting JMM at #2 - Case Closed
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Fuck the Ring.
We used to have our own Saddo P4P rankings. Wacko updated it regularly - unfortunately the rankings went with Wacko.
Someone restart the Saddo rankings. Lets see who the REAL fans think are on top P4P :cool:
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Fuck the Ring.
We used to have our own Saddo P4P rankings. Wacko updated it regularly - unfortunately the rankings went with Wacko.
Someone restart the Saddo rankings. Lets see who the REAL fans think are on top P4P :cool:
Wow Fens nice of you to volunteer.
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Fuck the Ring.
We used to have our own Saddo P4P rankings. Wacko updated it regularly - unfortunately the rankings went with Wacko.
Someone restart the Saddo rankings. Lets see who the REAL fans think are on top P4P :cool:
Yea, cuz that won't be biased at all...
Mighty Mike P4P#1
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Fuck the Ring.
We used to have our own Saddo P4P rankings. Wacko updated it regularly - unfortunately the rankings went with Wacko.
Someone restart the Saddo rankings. Lets see who the REAL fans think are on top P4P :cool:
Wow Fens nice of you to volunteer.
;D
Exactly cnote111 - Mighty Mike P4P#1 :cool:
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
I'm sorry Bilbo but I dont agree with your logic... JMM is a 35 year old fighter with 16 years experience and many of wars, he just absolutely crushed in brutal fashion a peak prime 135 pound relentless pressure fighting whirlwind who 3 fights ago was considered toast of the division even though Casamayor got a XMAS present against Santa Cruz...
a year ago 99% considered Diaz the Champ of the division, Marquez beat him at his own game knocked him down 2x and sparked him out cold... Diaz has never been stopped before.
Against Casamoyar a 1st ballot Hall Of Famer and can argue his resume is as good as Delahoya's in terms of who he's fought and beat... JMM stopped him, 1st man ever to do that too...
So JMM moves up in weight like Pac, Beats the ring #1 champ, Pac fought a pathetic title holder, Pac fights a zombie version of Delahoya, JMM beats the former #1-2 fighter at 135 in Diaz.
The proof is in the puddind
JMM is the real McCoy, no doubt about it#1 unless Pac can beat Hatton, if not JMM stays #1
I completely agree that JMM is the real McCoy he is an awesome fighter no doubt, but you can't put him at number 1 in the p4p rankings off the back of that win in place of the guy who holds a win over him just a couple fights ago.
And everything you said about Diaz applies pretty much to De La Hoya. Oscar had never been beaten up, only stopped once bymiddleweight king B Hop and had just lost a split decision to the p4p's best.
Marquez knocked Diaz out but he wasn't the first to beat him, Nate Campbell dominated Juan Diaz from the first bell and beat him far easier than Marquez did.
Unless you believe Nate is a top 10 p4p fighter your argument holds no logic to me.
Yes Marquez is great, yes he's unquestionably number 2 in the world but he can't leapfrog a man who beat him a year ago and then leapt not one, not two, but three weight classes and dominated and destroyed a living legend in De La Hoya.
Imo you are only detracting from Marquez's brilliant acomplishments by trying to make claims that cannot be backed up.
Marquez
lost to Pacquaio in an extremely close fight hence he
cannot be p4p number 1 in the world until he either avenges that defeat or Manny loses.
That's just the way boxing works. Manny defeated a fighter in Oscar that no boxing expert in the world expected him to do, whilst Marquez won a fight with Juan Diaz in which he was the slight favourite going in anyway seeing as Diaz had already been completely manhandled by a 36 veteran only two fights before.
If Manny loses to Hatton I'd have no problem putting Marquez as number 1 in the world but until then Manny is still the man.
Bilbo pretty much summed it all up on why MP should remain as #1 p4p.
But JT Rock,
Are saying Hatton is just a mediocre B-level fighter and Pacquiao won't gain anything by beating him?
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
I'm sorry Bilbo but I dont agree with your logic... JMM is a 35 year old fighter with 16 years experience and many of wars, he just absolutely crushed in brutal fashion a peak prime 135 pound relentless pressure fighting whirlwind who 3 fights ago was considered toast of the division even though Casamayor got a XMAS present against Santa Cruz...
a year ago 99% considered Diaz the Champ of the division, Marquez beat him at his own game knocked him down 2x and sparked him out cold... Diaz has never been stopped before.
Against Casamoyar a 1st ballot Hall Of Famer and can argue his resume is as good as Delahoya's in terms of who he's fought and beat... JMM stopped him, 1st man ever to do that too...
So JMM moves up in weight like Pac, Beats the ring #1 champ, Pac fought a pathetic title holder, Pac fights a zombie version of Delahoya, JMM beats the former #1-2 fighter at 135 in Diaz.
The proof is in the puddind
JMM is the real McCoy, no doubt about it#1 unless Pac can beat Hatton, if not JMM stays #1
I completely agree that JMM is the real McCoy he is an awesome fighter no doubt, but you can't put him at number 1 in the p4p rankings off the back of that win in place of the guy who holds a win over him just a couple fights ago.
And everything you said about Diaz applies pretty much to De La Hoya. Oscar had never been beaten up, only stopped once bymiddleweight king B Hop and had just lost a split decision to the p4p's best.
Marquez knocked Diaz out but he wasn't the first to beat him, Nate Campbell dominated Juan Diaz from the first bell and beat him far easier than Marquez did.
Unless you believe Nate is a top 10 p4p fighter your argument holds no logic to me.
Yes Marquez is great, yes he's unquestionably number 2 in the world but he can't leapfrog a man who beat him a year ago and then leapt not one, not two, but three weight classes and dominated and destroyed a living legend in De La Hoya.
Imo you are only detracting from Marquez's brilliant acomplishments by trying to make claims that cannot be backed up.
Marquez
lost to Pacquaio in an extremely close fight hence he
cannot be p4p number 1 in the world until he either avenges that defeat or Manny loses.
That's just the way boxing works. Manny defeated a fighter in Oscar that no boxing expert in the world expected him to do, whilst Marquez won a fight with Juan Diaz in which he was the slight favourite going in anyway seeing as Diaz had already been completely manhandled by a 36 veteran only two fights before.
If Manny loses to Hatton I'd have no problem putting Marquez as number 1 in the world but until then Manny is still the man.
Bilbo pretty much summed it all up on why MP should remain as #1 p4p.
But JT Rock,
Are saying Hatton is just a mediocre B-level fighter and Pacquiao won't gain anything by beating him?
Not to speak for you JT, so correct me if I'm wrong, but............
Jt is saying JMM is #1, and if PAC beats Hatton, PAC becomes #1 again.
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Jesus just rewatched Marquez/Diaz absolutely amazing fight
Compubox says
Marquez - total punches 288/732 39% - power punches 190/401 47%
Diaz - total punches 252/781 32% - power punches 161/500 32%
FOTY no doubt
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I completely agree that JMM is the real McCoy he is an awesome fighter no doubt, but you can't put him at number 1 in the p4p rankings off the back of that win in place of the guy who holds a win over him just a couple fights ago.
And everything you said about Diaz applies pretty much to De La Hoya. Oscar had never been beaten up, only stopped once bymiddleweight king B Hop and had just lost a split decision to the p4p's best.
Marquez knocked Diaz out but he wasn't the first to beat him, Nate Campbell dominated Juan Diaz from the first bell and beat him far easier than Marquez did.
Unless you believe Nate is a top 10 p4p fighter your argument holds no logic to me.
Yes Marquez is great, yes he's unquestionably number 2 in the world but he can't leapfrog a man who beat him a year ago and then leapt not one, not two, but three weight classes and dominated and destroyed a living legend in De La Hoya.
Imo you are only detracting from Marquez's brilliant acomplishments by trying to make claims that cannot be backed up.
Marquez lost to Pacquaio in an extremely close fight hence he cannot be p4p number 1 in the world until he either avenges that defeat or Manny loses.
That's just the way boxing works. Manny defeated a fighter in Oscar that no boxing expert in the world expected him to do, whilst Marquez won a fight with Juan Diaz in which he was the slight favourite going in anyway seeing as Diaz had already been completely manhandled by a 36 veteran only two fights before.
If Manny loses to Hatton I'd have no problem putting Marquez as number 1 in the world but until then Manny is still the man.
Bilbo pretty much summed it all up on why MP should remain as #1 p4p.
But JT Rock,
Are saying Hatton is just a mediocre B-level fighter and Pacquiao won't gain anything by beating him?
Not to speak for you JT, so correct me if I'm wrong, but............
Jt is saying JMM is #1, and if PAC beats Hatton, PAC becomes #1 again.
Greg is right.... I think Pac would be #1 again if he beats Hatton, hence the title... As it sits right here today JMM is #1 Boxer in the world. If Pac beats Hatton then Pac deserves to be #1 again.
I wouldnt be suprised if Mayweather toys with the Idea of Fighting JMM, especially if Hatton beats Pac, since Floyd had already been there and done that with Hatton.
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
Bilbo pretty much summed it all up on why MP should remain as #1 p4p.
But JT Rock,
Are saying Hatton is just a mediocre B-level fighter and Pacquiao won't gain anything by beating him?
Not to speak for you JT, so correct me if I'm wrong, but............
Jt is saying JMM is #1, and if PAC beats Hatton, PAC becomes #1 again.
Greg is right.... I think Pac would be #1 again if he beats Hatton, hence the title... As it sits right here today JMM is #1 Boxer in the world. If Pac beats Hatton then Pac deserves to be #1 again.
I wouldnt be suprised if Mayweather toys with the Idea of Fighting JMM, especially if Hatton beats Pac, since Floyd had already been there and done that with Hatton.
So if we assume by your logic that Pacquiao was number 1 prior to the Juan Diaz fight how can a win over a fighter who was not even in the top 10 p4p and who was dominated by a 36 year old veteran who was considered a journeyman at the time jump Marquez to number 1 now?
Because he came from behind? Because it was a knockout? Because it was exciting?
If he'd have won easily and dominated from the first bell would you just be saying it was clear that Diaz was broken by Campbell and now shot?
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Not to speak for you JT, so correct me if I'm wrong, but............
Jt is saying JMM is #1, and if PAC beats Hatton, PAC becomes #1 again.
Greg is right.... I think Pac would be #1 again if he beats Hatton, hence the title... As it sits right here today JMM is #1 Boxer in the world. If Pac beats Hatton then Pac deserves to be #1 again.
I wouldnt be suprised if Mayweather toys with the Idea of Fighting JMM, especially if Hatton beats Pac, since Floyd had already been there and done that with Hatton.
So if we assume by your logic that Pacquiao was number 1 prior to the Juan Diaz fight how can a win over a fighter who was not even in the top 10 p4p and who was dominated by a 36 year old veteran who was considered a journeyman at the time jump Marquez to number 1 now?
Because he came from behind? Because it was a knockout? Because it was exciting?
If he'd have won easily and dominated from the first bell would you just be saying it was clear that Diaz was broken by Campbell and now shot?
Juan Diaz was and is the #1 Ring rated contender in the weight class that JMM now occupies.
JMM fought the Lineal ring champ Casamayor in the fight before that.
There can be no question he fought the best in the division according to the ring, AKA the best opposition available to him.
Re: Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Greg is right.... I think Pac would be #1 again if he beats Hatton, hence the title... As it sits right here today JMM is #1 Boxer in the world. If Pac beats Hatton then Pac deserves to be #1 again.
I wouldnt be suprised if Mayweather toys with the Idea of Fighting JMM, especially if Hatton beats Pac, since Floyd had already been there and done that with Hatton.
So if we assume by your logic that Pacquiao was number 1 prior to the Juan Diaz fight how can a win over a fighter who was not even in the top 10 p4p and who was dominated by a 36 year old veteran who was considered a journeyman at the time jump Marquez to number 1 now?
Because he came from behind? Because it was a knockout? Because it was exciting?
If he'd have won easily and dominated from the first bell would you just be saying it was clear that Diaz was broken by Campbell and now shot?
Juan Diaz was and is the #1 Ring rated contender in the weight class that JMM now occupies.
JMM fought the Lineal ring champ Casamayor in the fight before that.
There can be no question he fought the best in the division according to the ring, AKA the best opposition available to him.
I don't dispute that and would unhesitatingly put Marquez as THE man in the lightweight division but how does he leapfrog the man who just beat him three fights ago and who has since won another world title at a different weight class and then jumped 3 weight classes to fight a 6 weight world champ and legend in the next fight?
Yes Marquez did fantastically well and has destroyed the two best fighters at lightweight (well Nate Campbell was the best but he's moved up now) but he can't leapfrog Pacquiao who he lost to off the back of that.
And if were going to get all subjective I think there are as many questionmarks over Casamayor and Juan Diaz as there are over David Diaz and Oscar.
Certainly Oscar had looked much better in recent outings than both Casa (who had looked awful against Santa Cruz and Katsidis) and Juan Diaz, who was totally beaten up by Nate Campbell.
There's simply no way a justification can be made for dropping Manny down a place on the back of three outstanding wins against JMM, David Diaz and Oscar De La Hoya each one progressively more dominant than the last.
And if Marquez had got the decision against Manny, I'd be arguing the same for him, that Marquez won the fight and hence was p4p number 1 regardless whether people though Manny won or not.
