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You guys seem to be ignoring the word FEATHERWEIGHT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
There is a difference between being regarded as elite in the entire world of boxing and elite in your respective division.
If a fighter occupies an overall top ten ranking and/or wins a "world" title in a particular division, that would class him among the elite (best) of that weight-class. No?
Come on guys... :D
This has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? :LOLATYOU: You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. :vd: You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterYet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseI now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? :rofmaoal: Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.
How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?
IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.
Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.
:)
Calm down mate. It's just a fun debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThis has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? :LOLATYOU: You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. :vd: You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterYet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseI now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? :rofmaoal: Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.
How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?
IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.
Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.
:)
Never once have I "bad-mouthed" Marquez. I have called him an all-time great many times on this thread. I haven't said the same about Naz once. The debate is about Marquez in Naz's era.
The Steward reference was ignored because there is no quote. Where is the evidence? VD has already lied, well got loads of things wrong, in this thread pertaining to events at the time. What about my quotes from Marquez himself, Berstain (that's his trainer/manager) and Antonio Curtis (former matchmaker)? Were they answered?
(For the record - certain commentators often repeat "Naz ducked Marquez" during Marquez fights ;))
I deal in fact not hearsay.
I too cheered for Barrera against the Naz fella.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterCalm down mate. It's just a fun debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThis has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? :LOLATYOU: You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. :vd: You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterYet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge :vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseI now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.
1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.
2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.
3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.
You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? :rofmaoal: Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.
How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?
IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.
Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.
:)
Never once have I "bad-mouthed" Marquez. I have called him an all-time great many times on this thread. I haven't said the same about Naz once. The debate is about Marquez in Naz's era.
The Steward reference was ignored because there is no quote. Where is the evidence? VD has already lied, well got loads of things wrong, in this thread pertaining to events at the time. What about my quotes from Marquez himself, Berstain (that's his trainer/manager) and Antonio Curtis (former matchmaker)? Were they answered?
(For the record - certain commentators often repeat "Naz ducked Marquez" during Marquez fights ;))
I deal in fact not hearsay.
I too cheered for Barrera against the Naz fella.
Ok..... carry on, then.
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogGood point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
i know hamed was a great, great showman but i also think he was one of the biggest hype jobs in boxing! sure he could punch but what happened when he went against an in his prime barrera? he got exposed as a one dimensional fighter with really little boxing skills. the fact that he was so awkward was a big advantage against many of his opponents who found it hard to adjust to his style. but fighters like barrera did expose him and marquez would have done the same. there is no comparison between marquez' skills and hamed's lack of skills. marquez wound win this one going away by UD or late TKO.
That wasn't even a prime Barrera that clowned him. A prime Marco would of stopped himQuote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
You haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogGood point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
Manny Steward says Naz would have knocked out Barrera inside three rounds if he had trained properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThat wasn't even a prime Barrera that clowned him. A prime Marco would of stopped himQuote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Manny Steward also says Morales would have been an easy fight for Naz. He says Morales upright style, poor footwork and the fact he will try and trade made him made for Naz.
;)
Well..... you got ME convinced, Fen. Where do I send my donations for Naz's 300-foot golden statue?
Hey, wait.... I'm working on my donation right now.
:spunk:
The greatest duck in history?
Hhhmmmm
:thinking2:
I don't know there's been a handful that quickly stand out...
http://willfulcaboose.files.wordpres...01-film-b1.jpg
http://tomellard.com/wp/wp-content/u...ck-posters.jpg
Scrooge McDuck was certainly the wealthiest...
http://www.writingthepine.com/wp-con...gold-coins.png
To bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterYou haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogGood point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
Prime is debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseTo bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterYou haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogGood point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
The only bombproof unquestionable fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best most decorated featherweights of his day and ducked nobody. Fact.
Whoomp there it is
great thread took me back to the happy 90's when the internet was full of guestbooks... cheers guys great debate ;)
one thing that really puzzles me... if an elite fighter gets beaten in his prime would he be classed as an elite fighter after the loss and would that be classed as his prime :confused::confused::confused:
Jeff Lacy springs to mind for some reason ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterPrime is debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseTo bad the good ones were all past there prime. And the ones that were, weren't that good. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterYou haven't wrecked a thing. Anyone with half a brain cell can see I bounce you all over the shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Of course you didn't. I'm a give you a little credit. It was a good try. And I can see your little trick working against others. But I saw right through it. I let it play out a little before I wrecked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI've never once said Naz beat an elite fighter - as in a P4P star or an all-time great. I've simply stated he beat the "elite featherweights" (top rated, most decorated) of his time. I've never once called Naz a "great" during this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogGood point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterI believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...
I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.
I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.
Greats like Morales never went to featherweight until the end of Naz's era. And Naz basically had to chose between Barrera and Morales at that time. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered by then ;)
It's like this. Naseem never beat an elite fighter who was in his prime. Thats an indisputable fact. Not even his most loyal can offer an argument without looking like fools. It's why you kept using the word Featherweight. Like I said security blanket. You threw out names under that banner to try and make your point. But eventually you knew it was only a matter of time before I grew bored of you and just put you out your misery. You prepared for it. After making it clear to everybody not brain dead that Robinson, Ingle and Medina were not elite fighters and it's true in fact what Violent D says, you don't get hit to hard. All you had to say is what you just said.
"I uh, uh never said Hamed beat an elite fighter. I said he beat an elite Featherweight. Featherweight. Only talking about that weight"
I'm a cut you some slack and not ask you to explain the shameful ducking of the original question that was asked of you. Ask you can see it's quite clear not the one you were answering.
The fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best featherweights of his day and ducked nobody.
The end.
Another fact is Hamed never beat an elite fighter in his prime.
The only bombproof unquestionable fact is - Naz beat all the elite/best most decorated featherweights of his day and ducked nobody. Fact.
Whoomp there it is
Yeah ok. Going by your analogy and the fact that he beat O'Neil Bell, Wayne Braithwaite, Dale Brown and Virgil Hill (the "elite" Cruiserweights at that time) Hamed's legacy is pretty much the same as that of Jean Marc Mormeck. :lolhaha: And that's a fact
Game. Set. Match. Point