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Klitchko - Ibragimov winner will be the first lineal Champion sice Lennox Lewis retired.
What are your thoughts on this and do you think this will lead to bigger and better times for the Heavyweights!!!
Will they reclaim their throne as the top division to watch?
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
You are correct in that he will be the first lineal champ since Lenox but I don't think Wlad will be the one to turn the corner for the heavyweights. As good a boxer as he is and with that head snapping jab you'd think so but I do not.
I think the world waits for a much more dynamic fighter then Wlad. He is very technical and KO's people but he's missing that thing. I don't know what it is and this just migh be be but... He doesn't enthuse me.
Again, I have no problem with Wlad and think he's the best of the Heavies but he is BY FAR the best I've ever seen.
I'm still waiting for that next big, dynamic star of the heaveyweight div.:cool:
Good point, tried to rep you but apparantly I can't for some reason:mad:.
Anyways, I still think this is a first step to new beggining for the Heavies. I don't see Wlad as a major attraction in the sport but I think having a lineal champion again will help focus the fans attention on who the real champion is and sooner or later some new young gun will rise and challange Klitchko and claim the title and the new lineage will begin to take form.
I expect by the end of 2010 the heavies will be the top draw again.
Beating Sulton wont make Wlad a lineal champ. I think Sulton is Rank #4. For true recognition we need #1Wlad vs #2 Peter.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
Although we are going in the right direction.
Probably not. There has only been one time in history when the heavyweights were actually the best division to watch, and that was the 1970s, which was the Golden Age of heavyweights. Someone could also make an argument that the heavyweights were the best division in the early-mid 90s. Other than that, the smaller weight classes have always had the best fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
There will be more intrest in who the winner of this upcoming fight is going to fight and there SHOULD be more attention paid by the media to this champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
If it's Wladimir then all the better we have a big guy, a KO puncher, a good boxer, and a true WORLD CHAMPION...he is an easier sell and a better fighter...I doubt Sultan can win vs many fighters out there even if he does beat Wladimir.
I don't disagree with this at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I was just saying that I don't see the heavyweights becoming the "top division to watch."
Klitschko is a fraud and will be rightly ignored by the media. A guy who got KO'd in effectively a round by a journeyman and then wouldn't get back in the ring with him is a joke, not somebody we can take seriously. If he becomes lineal champ it just means he's the biggest joke in a joke division. In fact "joke division" may be rating the current heavyweight division too highly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lance Uppercut
The first Unification fight in a division where the lineal title has been vacated is automatically a lineal title fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
I agree, but when I said the top division to watch I meant the biggest draw which the Heavies usually are. Maybe they won't claim the top spot right off the bat but I think it is a start.
This means that the winner of Chagaev-Ibragimov would have been lineal Heavyweight champion of the world, right? Jesus...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
Also, you could argue that Klitschko has already unified the IBF and IBO titles. Sure, the IBO isn't anything special, but isnt that true about the WBO as well?
As much as I'm looking forward to the two champs fighting Saturday I don't think this is going to bring much recognition to the division. I think it will do marginally better than Calzaghe-Kessler, arguably one of the most important (and best) fights of last year which did zilch in the ratings.
To the casual boxing fan, who is Sultan Ibragimov? He came out of nowhere and beat a placeholder for a belt and he doesn't look like anything. It's sad, but true that perception does matter. You could show me a picture of Ibragimov ten times and I could easily forget his face twelve times. He doesn't look menacing; he looks like some guy you might walk by in a mall.
Klitschko will be the one to carry this fight. With his height and intimidating physique he'll draw some people. But I think Americans, at least, are disinterested in two white, European fighters whose names they can't pronounce.
We liked Mike Tyson because he looked menacing, was menacing. We liked Ali for his big mouth. We liked George Foreman because he was a monster. I really don't know how much of a black/white thing it is but something with those fighters doesn't translate over to Saturday's combatants.
I hope like hell I'm wrong, but I don't think people in this country really care about a foreign, non-black heavyweight. Tyson was putting butts in seats to fight glorified club fighters- had this fight been in Germany I'd bet it would have sold out, but does anyone know how many seats are left at the Garden?
You can't have a comedy with two straight men.
I don't think Klitschko (or Sultan I guess) becoming lineal will generate all that much new attention on the heavyweights. Its gonna take an exciting fighter and for whatever reason people don't get all that excited about Wlad.
Even worse if Sultan somehow won it. A supremely non-intimidating looking fighter who sticks and moves for the most part. And Russian. That's bound to generate excitement.
Depends what part of the world we're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
You're right, the heavyweights have traditionally been the biggest draw. However, in the US, the reason the heavys were a big draw is because the best heavys were American. I don't see that happening again, because the best American athletes are going to keep playing football and basketball, not boxing. The Alis, Fraziers and Foremans of this generation are playing in the NFL, and that won't change.
The heavys could definitely become the biggest division in Europe though, because that's where the best heavys are coming from.
andQuote:
Originally Posted by liquid
Good points. FWIW I (am in the minority) who actually believes guys like Valuev are great for the sport. Exactly due to these reasons - he may not be a great fighter, but he sure looks menacing, and he is instantly recognisable. Two very important ingredients in becoming 'the baddest man on the planet', which the Heavyweight Champion of the world should always be regarded as.Quote:
Originally Posted by liquid
Now, of course there is the small problem that Valuev will get his head smashed in if he ever meets Wlad, but you probably still get what I'm getting at.
Wladimir has 49 wins 44 by KO...it takes talent to win 1 professional fight, especially by KO...to win this many it's more than LUCK or just that "the other guy sucked more"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
You cannot as a true boxing fan and in all seriousness look at Wladimir Klitschko fight and tell me he doesn't have talent he has one of the best jabs in the HISTORY of the sport, he has every punch in his arsenal ALL with legitimate KO power with either hand! You figure all that with his physical size and strength paired with his hand eye coordination and knowledge of boxing he's a very very solid heavyweight ALL-TIME...he's good, he's not great but his career isn't over yet but he's a very good heavyweight and there is no doubting that.
Just because you get beat a time or two doesn't make you a chump or a fraud....the guy has had 52 fights he was bound to have an off night sometime.
He fought a bunch of tomato cans in front of home crowds in a country where the opponent needs a knockout to get a draw for a promoter who makes Frank Warren look like a relentless risk-taker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Watch out or journeyman tomato can Corrie Sanders will come out of retirement and knock him out in a round again.
Who you think is the best heavyweight out there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
...you know people talked shit about Lennox Lewis losing to McCall and Rahman
People talked about Joe Louis losing to Schmelling
There is no need for Wlad to avenge the loss to Sanders until it is a HUGE money making fight and I believe he will and he'll beat the shit out of Sanders.
Corey swung for the fences because he knew he was either going to catch Wlad or Wlad was going to catch him....if Wlad stayed calm and boxed while Sanders was swinging like a wild man then Sanders would have run out of steam and Wlad would have implimented his strategy.
I think "best" isn't a word that should be used to describe any of the current bunch. Least worst is probably the best way to put it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Lewis and Louis got back in the ring with guys who had beaten them and beat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Klitschko got KO'd in a round and humiliated by the tomato can Sanders and refused to get in the ring with him again.
So who you think is the least worst?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
I don't know and I don't care. The last heavyweight fight I saw was Chagaev (?) struggling to beat British removal man and part-time boxer Matt Skelton. Chagaev I think beat the huge guy Valuev (?) who recently beat some other ov. So that means it's either Chagaev or the winner of Saturday's fight. But whoever it is is still rubbish. I just can't see the point in taking the current heavyweights seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
...and Wladimir hasn't "refused to fight Sanders again" where do you get that from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
Their match up just hasn't made sense because Sanders hasn't done anything since then.
Would you like Wlad to fight Ross Purrity and maybe some people he lost to in the amatuers????
So if you don't care, don't follow or watch the division why bother posting here? You are not contributing anything that adds to the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
Ibragimov seems to always be written off before fights and keeps winning. Obviously he's not fought someone like Klitschko before, but i think he's a more difficult opponent than he gets credit for.
While I do admit I sell Sultan a tad short but it's only because he's been such a bipolar fighter, he's either on his game or he's not...and his power punches either affect someone or they don't.
It's very hard to judge him based on past fights...I don't know what to think of him.
I do know how Wladimir fights and I do know what he can do and yeah I think he's going to win this fight by KO because he has had 52 fights and won 49 of them 44 by KO....so the odds are in his favor in my opinion
I'm wondering why some people take the heavyweight division seriously. Let's face it, it's a legitimate question.Quote:
Originally Posted by bikersk
I've only seen highlights of his last two fights so am no expert, it's just that he seems to be a guy who's regularly written of by "experts" and the guys here but he wins. I've just noticed that about Sultan. I would think too that Klitschko should KO him but Sultan seems to be a shifty bugger to fight so you never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Well Sultan was one of those guys people were hot on as some kind of power punching KO artist similar to Mike Tyson and he hasn't lived up to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bikersk
Sultan is good in some fights....Lance Whittaker
But he's EXTREMELY disappointing in other fights: Ray Austin, Shannon Briggs, Evander Holyfield.
And the way I see it, Sultan just isn't good enough at this stage in his career to beat Wladimir without getting REALLY REALLY lucky
Yeah ok. That's interesting because my impression of him is as a boxer who likes a points win. You know - i had the misfortune of seeing the Briggs fight. That was woeful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Ya know,Just my Opine but Sanders was not just a soft body with at times a chinny chin..............On the right night and in top shape he had the handspeed and one punch power to hurt ALOT of Heavy's.
I see that more recently but when Sultan first popped on the scene everyone thought he was a combination throwing power puncher.
If he tries to outbox Wladimir I think he might want to consult Chris Byrd on defensive strategies to use vs Wlad. If Byrd can't do it (in 2 fights) then I highly doubt Sultan can do it.
There are 2 ways that you beat Wladimir
#1 You throw often, hard, and hit the target....1 guy did that Corey Sanders
#2 You take plenty of punishment and Wlad gets tired....2 guys did that Purrity and Brewster
Other than that no one has had much success vs Wladimir
Well my impression has been that for Sultan to win he would be needing to use the second option you described. It would be a big ask to take punishment from Wlad because his accuracy and power will be hard to withstand I bet. Almost a "Rumble in the jungle" style of fight. Not that i'm comparing the fighters (settle down everyone) just the style/strategy needed when fighting the bigger guy. He could try the rope a dope or whatever it was called. Catch a tired Wlad with some powerful combo's late in the fight and who knows.................Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Would be good odds anyway.
So you are comparing the best era in HW boxing ever in an effort to say that Wlad is rubbish. That isn't logical Kirkland.
You will have to admit that Wlad is no slouch. In almost any but the very best eras in hw boxing he would be a contender. Because he is in a very weak division today is not an overwhelming argument for how poor he is.
He has an awesome jab and great power and uses his height very well. I don't know how you can flaw the man as being a joke to be honest. Granted he may not be the best ever, but he is a very solid worthy HW any way you cut it.
Im not big on overrating Size but His Pure size factor in company with a wicked power jab alone would make Wlad a danger In any Era. Many A top heavy have been tagged up on the chin throughout the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
So Its a shit era.......Hey to a limited point I agree, but at least there sorting this s!!! out by fighting one another. No points off for effort right ?
Wlad has a longggggggggg way to go to prove that he is a great heavyweight. However, I don't think there's any doubt that he is the best heavyweight out there right now, and he is deserving, in my opinion, of being recognized as the heavyweight champ.
As Joe Louis said "You can run but you can't hide"Quote:
Originally Posted by bikersk
There is only so far Sultan get get away from Wladimir...and I just can't see him staying away and being effective OR tiring out Wlad.
IMO Sultan's best option is to go for broke and hope he can jump on him early and connect. Sultan is a southpaw and maybe Wlad just doesn't handle southpaws well...Sanders was a southpaw but he had 1 punch power and a really solid chin...I don't know if Sultan has those but because he is able to land wild bombs (like he did on Austin) then it's something to think about.
Wladimir isn't great now....but he can still be great.
Well I'm glad I started a good debate even though it had been more...what's the word I'm looking for...colorful?, than I had in mind.
Anyways I think some of you might be missing my point. It is not that Wladamir Klitchko is the future and he is the greatest. Wlad is the present and at present the heavyweight division sucks. And there is no getting around that fact. Wlad might be a good fighter but the division still sucks.
However, I think a large part of what is wrong with the division, more than not having an american champion, is the fact that there has not been a true Heavyweight Champion since Lennox Lewis. After this fight there will be. And it will be a new beginning.
I don't know who the future of the division is, but I do know we are one step closer to finding out.
Actually the term is linear championship. Basically one can trace the title either back to the days before the alphabet bandits fucked everything up by keeping the best from fighting the best or all the major champs fight each other and the guy who comes out on top is considered the "real" champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
Wlad fighting the least credible of the other champs will not make him a linear champion, just a semi-unified champ. He'll still need to fight the WBC and WBA champs to get to the point of being the true champion. As far as him Peter again, neither were title holders when they fought the first time so I am game to see who has improved (Peter did knock down Wlad a few times) since then.
RookieFan, the division is not shit it's just the good fighters and title holders aren't fighting each other and no one is taking any risks! The last risk any big time heavyweight took was the Klitschko-Peter fight.
There are outside elements keeping these titles from being unified and EVERYONE knows it.
Lucifer, Wlad is not fighting the "least credible champ" that would be Oleg Maskaev!
Sultan beat Briggs to win the title and defended against Holyfield and that beats what Maskaev did (Oleg beat Rahman to win the vacant title and defended against Peter Okhello). Sultan is also UNDEFEATED sure he has had his issues in the past but being undefeated is no easy task.
Why must you guys seek out the bad in the division? Why can't you look for the good? There are more evenly matched fights in this division and there are more guys who can contend for the titles in this division when compared to any other but yet it's "a crap division" in your opinion.
Even if Wlad unified all the titles people would still hate on him and this division, it happens all the time to all boxers who are successful