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Looking at Jeff pre Calzaghe yes he was crude but he let his punches flow had decent headmovement and was bullish inside.
Post Calzaghe he pushes his shots they dont flow anymore he also does not move his head.
At 29yo Lacy imo was ruined mentally and physically.
Absolutley, when that fight finished so did Lacy.
He lost ever bit of mental strength and fortitude that he had built.
He was actually a gutsy fighter, he kept coming after Calzaghe, he never stopped trying, but the loss was a complete and uter domination.
Calzaghe schooled his ass and he has never looked the same since.
To be beaten so comprehensively when he thought he was the man seems to have destroyed him mentally.
It seemed to be a psychological domination and it would be hard to recover from.
One thing I will give him is he can take a beating. But yes it finished him
Yes it did but he always did have major flaws which could be taken advantage of it has to be said the he was lucky that his 3 best wins were past there prime Syd Vanderpool Robin Reid Omar Sheika none of these fighters even at that best would i consider world class. Most of the time come forward fighters like Lacy have no defence and are 1 dimensional normally they do get found out unless the punchers are special like George Foreman Joe Louis amongst many other greats.
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Originally Posted by ssss
When you look at the so-called pro picks its about 20-1 in favour of Lacy. But to be honest 99% of those guys were American and American sports writers as a whole are not objective, hear "British" and think bum and see a power puncher and its love at first sight.
Ive never seen so many writers and casters not only wrong but completely and utterly wrong.
That is very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by ssss
When you look at the so-called pro picks its about 20-1 in favour of Lacy. But to be honest 99% of those guys were American and American sports writers as a whole are not objective, hear "British" and think bum and see a power puncher and its love at first sight.
Ive never seen so many writers and casters not only wrong but completely and utterly wrong.
That is quite shocking and just furthers the point that big punchers get very overrated i mean say two years ago Kelly Pavlik vs Joe Calzaghe wouldn't have been even talked about and now everyone wants to see it and are accusing Calzaghe of ducking. There will always be a new young puncher coming up through the ranks that they will want Joe Calzaghe to face or any champion for that matter i believe that if Floyd Mayweather defeats the winner of Miguel Cotto vs Antonio Margarito i bet you the fans will want Mayweather to fight Andre Berto in a few years and accuse him of ducking Berto if he chooses not to fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by ssss
When you look at the so-called pro picks its about 20-1 in favour of Lacy. But to be honest 99% of those guys were American and American sports writers as a whole are not objective, hear "British" and think bum and see a power puncher and its love at first sight.
Ive never seen so many writers and casters not only wrong but completely and utterly wrong.
Lacy has always been shit and overhyped.
I say no because I think much like David Reid or Domonick Guinn that a long amateur career damaged Lacy more than anything. Had Lacy gone pro earlier he may have suffered a few more losses but his pro career would be longer and I still think he'd lose to Calzaghe.
Lacy's style is limited and he wasn't developed properly as a fighter. Bad management and bad training
I think he was ruined by that horrible shoulder injury in his next fight after Joe Cal
Remember the build up it was hard to find anyone picking Calzaghe, Jeff was a wrecking ball. After Calzaghe everyone said i knew a good boxer would beat him he was always a limited bum.
Trying to discredit my Joe, i wont have it ya hear :lickish:
Very few people on here had Calzaghe down to beat Lacy, funnily enough they all 'knew' how crap Lacy was after that fight and always 'knew' he was limited and a rookie. Didn't hear much of that before the fight ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
I voted no. Lacy had one great performance against Reid where he used more than just power and showed something special. It was a performance that I liken to Buster Douglas vs. Mike Tyson. To be a great boxer you need more than one big win. Reid was very old by the time Lacy fought him as well.
There was something special about Lacy though.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
He was an Olympian, no mtter who you are thats a huge achievement.
He did scythe through each opponent in his early career, regardless of quality.
I just feel up until Round 1 of the Calzaghe fight he looked like a young man with tremendous faith in his own physical ability. A fighter can develop the skills from there.
But the Calzaghe defeat was so devastating he has the mentality of a first timer each time he enters the ring now.
Duck to the right, weave left then left hook. One-trick pony. It's easy to get carried away when someone has power. And I am happy about his amateur career, being an olympian is an amazing feat, but like I said aside from the Reid fight I guess I just never saw anything special about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyThere was something special about Lacy though.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
He was an Olympian, no mtter who you are thats a huge achievement.
He did scythe through each opponent in his early career, regardless of quality.
I just feel up until Round 1 of the Calzaghe fight he looked like a young man with tremendous faith in his own physical ability. A fighter can develop the skills from there.
But the Calzaghe defeat was so devastating he has the mentality of a first timer each time he enters the ring now.
That is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepDuck to the right, weave left then left hook. One-trick pony. It's easy to get carried away when someone has power. And I am happy about his amateur career, being an olympian is an amazing feat, but like I said aside from the Reid fight I guess I just never saw anything special about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyThere was something special about Lacy though.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
He was an Olympian, no mtter who you are thats a huge achievement.
He did scythe through each opponent in his early career, regardless of quality.
I just feel up until Round 1 of the Calzaghe fight he looked like a young man with tremendous faith in his own physical ability. A fighter can develop the skills from there.
But the Calzaghe defeat was so devastating he has the mentality of a first timer each time he enters the ring now.
Some fighters have the natural ability to get away with being
one-dimensional.
Subsequently, a weak level of opposition can allow the fighter to domiante without being exposed.
I guess Calzaghe was that much better he exposed every flaw Jeff had.
I feel that at the moment there are a number of fighters in the division that could have performed similar revelations, but it still doesn't account for his shortcomings vs. Manfredo and Espianoza
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Originally Posted by BIG HVery few people on here had Calzaghe down to beat Lacy, funnily enough they all 'knew' how crap Lacy was after that fight and always 'knew' he was limited and a rookie. Didn't hear much of that before the fight ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Ive been through a few threads in 2005/6 and people posting in this thread right here had Lacy down as a demigod and had him obliterating Calzaghe.
I wont bump but yes before the fight everyone had Lacy after the fight hes a bum.
I will add up until Calzaghe, Lacy was a real good exciting fighter with power that made Pavlik look feather fisted.
This is not the point though.. who cares who had who before the fight.. the question is did the Calzaghe fight ruin Lacy..Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by BIG HVery few people on here had Calzaghe down to beat Lacy, funnily enough they all 'knew' how crap Lacy was after that fight and always 'knew' he was limited and a rookie. Didn't hear much of that before the fight ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Ive been through a few threads in 2005/6 and people posting in this thread right here had Lacy down as a demigod and had him obliterating Calzaghe.
I wont bump but yes before the fight everyone had Lacy after the fight hes a bum.
I will add up until Calzaghe, Lacy was a real good exciting fighter with power that made Pavlik look feather fisted.
i think it's always a rude awakening when a confident undefeated fighter finally loses.. You will always know that you actually CAN lose now.. but Lacy has a lot of heart and will avoid no one, so that has to say something aobut his mental state..
i think that the shoulder injury ruined him more than Calzaghe did.. but as far as the question if Calzaghe ruined Lacy, i'd say yes and no.. more importantly he was EXPOSED.. He's still a big puncher who can take a lot of punishment, and that's what he was before also, people just are'nt as intimidated by him becuase they see what happened to him and gain confidence..
if i was fighting someone who looked like Lacy, and knew he was undefeated i'd already be quite intimidated.. but if i knew that some skinny white guy SLAPPED the hell out of him and beat him to a pulp, then i'd have QUITE a bit more confidence going into the fight..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyThat is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepDuck to the right, weave left then left hook. One-trick pony. It's easy to get carried away when someone has power. And I am happy about his amateur career, being an olympian is an amazing feat, but like I said aside from the Reid fight I guess I just never saw anything special about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Some fighters have the natural ability to get away with being
one-dimensional.
Subsequently, a weak level of opposition can allow the fighter to domiante without being exposed.
I guess Calzaghe was that much better he exposed every flaw Jeff had.
I feel that at the moment there are a number of fighters in the division that could have performed similar revelations, but it still doesn't account for his shortcomings vs. Manfredo and Espianoza
Although I am not a fan of Calzaghe, I give credit where it is due, Joe isn't a champ sheerly because of his blinding speed and great chin right? He is such a dominant champ because he can adapt to any situation, look at his win over Kessler that fight was actually pretty close UNTIL Joe switched it up and went on to control the last 7 rounds pretty comfortably.
Like Floyd is a great champ coz he can adapt to any style, I hear ya sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyThat is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Some fighters have the natural ability to get away with being
one-dimensional.
Subsequently, a weak level of opposition can allow the fighter to domiante without being exposed.
I guess Calzaghe was that much better he exposed every flaw Jeff had.
I feel that at the moment there are a number of fighters in the division that could have performed similar revelations, but it still doesn't account for his shortcomings vs. Manfredo and Espianoza
Although I am not a fan of Calzaghe, I give credit where it is due, Joe isn't a champ sheerly because of his blinding speed and great chin right? He is such a dominant champ because he can adapt to any situation, look at his win over Kessler that fight was actually pretty close UNTIL Joe switched it up and went on to control the last 7 rounds pretty comfortably.
Good point that, I'll have to remeber that.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyThat is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Some fighters have the natural ability to get away with being
one-dimensional.
Subsequently, a weak level of opposition can allow the fighter to domiante without being exposed.
I guess Calzaghe was that much better he exposed every flaw Jeff had.
I feel that at the moment there are a number of fighters in the division that could have performed similar revelations, but it still doesn't account for his shortcomings vs. Manfredo and Espianoza
Although I am not a fan of Calzaghe, I give credit where it is due, Joe isn't a champ sheerly because of his blinding speed and great chin right? He is such a dominant champ because he can adapt to any situation, look at his win over Kessler that fight was actually pretty close UNTIL Joe switched it up and went on to control the last 7 rounds pretty comfortably.
Probablt the Calzaghe fight. But if you look at the first round of his next fight he was looking pretty good till he did his shoulder.
I saw his interview on WNF last night and he doesn't look like he believes in himself anymore. Mentally he's lost it.
I disagree completely about Lacy losing all his mental strenght and fortidude.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Apart from his physical strength pretty much all Lacy has is his heart and will to win.
I have to say, I'm a big Jeff Lacy fan, in my mind no boxer gives his all more than Jeff Lacy.
To get beat for every minute of every round like he did against Joe Calzaghe but to keep fighting to the very end, to fight with a torn rotator cuff from the second round against Tyspko and pull out a win and to come back from being rocked several times against Mendoza to dig deep and make sure he won the final round and therefore the fight shows the heart and mental strength of a true champion imo.
Lacy is limited technically, and his power was overratted but for heart, determination, dedication to the sport and sheer iron will Lacy is possibly America's best fighter imo.
This can be said about many fighters.
You could ask did Pavlik ruin Miranda or Zertuche? They were not the same after running into him.
Physical beatings you can recover from, but certain mindsets will never recover from a bad loss. It will always be on the back of their mind. When a fighter is undefeated, they feel invulnerable. Fighters can handle points losses usually fine. KO losses or beatings shows a fighter how human they are and they can lose their fire that helped elevate them in the first place.
Joe took away Lacy's fire. The mystique he once had for himself was gone and he knew he had limitations. His injury took more away from him, so he has fallen quite far.
This is a good post in all seriousness, totally agree. If anything last night I was impressed by the guts of Lacy. Mendoza can complain all he wants but when it counted Lacy wanted it more. He won the fight on pure guts.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI disagree completely about Lacy losing all his mental strenght and fortidude.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Apart from his physical strength pretty much all Lacy has is his heart and will to win.
I have to say, I'm a big Jeff Lacy fan, in my mind no boxer gives his all more than Jeff Lacy.
To get beat for every minute of every round like he did against Joe Calzaghe but to keep fighting to the very end, to fight with a torn rotator cuff from the second round against Tyspko and pull out a win and to come back from being rocked several times against Mendoza to dig deep and make sure he won the final round and therefore the fight shows the heart and mental strength of a true champion imo.
Lacy is limited technically, and his power was overratted but for heart, determination, dedication to the sport and sheer iron will Lacy is possibly America's best fighter imo.
With Lacy its just another case of fans falling in love with a puncher but like you say his power has always been overrated too. He's more of a clubbing type puncher, he never got guys out early or with one big punch.
And the technical flaws defensively are really the problem. Outside he's obviously not comfortable and inside (you can see this big time as far back as even the Rubin Williams fight) he doesn't keep his hands up well enough, he keeps the left too low which is ok I guess on the outside but not the inside when you're not really moving your head.
Wow this must be the first time you've agreed with one of my posts Ouma. :)
Agreed completely. I think at one point he was a lot better technically as far as being an offensive fighter then he is now but everything about this is right. Obviously I want to stay away from this topic as he's my favorite fighter, but you're right, in a way it was a great performance by Lacy. Obviously it's pretty safe say his days as a champion are done I would think unless he can simply outlast a better boxer.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFanThis is a good post in all seriousness, totally agree. If anything last night I was impressed by the guts of Lacy. Mendoza can complain all he wants but when it counted Lacy wanted it more. He won the fight on pure guts.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI disagree completely about Lacy losing all his mental strenght and fortidude.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Apart from his physical strength pretty much all Lacy has is his heart and will to win.
I have to say, I'm a big Jeff Lacy fan, in my mind no boxer gives his all more than Jeff Lacy.
To get beat for every minute of every round like he did against Joe Calzaghe but to keep fighting to the very end, to fight with a torn rotator cuff from the second round against Tyspko and pull out a win and to come back from being rocked several times against Mendoza to dig deep and make sure he won the final round and therefore the fight shows the heart and mental strength of a true champion imo.
Lacy is limited technically, and his power was overratted but for heart, determination, dedication to the sport and sheer iron will Lacy is possibly America's best fighter imo.
With Lacy its just another case of fans falling in love with a puncher but like you say his power has always been overrated too. He's more of a clubbing type puncher, he never got guys out early or with one big punch.
And the technical flaws defensively are really the problem. Outside he's obviously not comfortable and inside (you can see this big time as far back as even the Rubin Williams fight) he doesn't keep his hands up well enough, he keeps the left too low which is ok I guess on the outside but not the inside when you're not really moving your head.
Its not the first time I've agreed with you Bilbo especially the times when you aren't saying absolutely silly things. Its just that you said exactly what I was gonna say after reading Donny's post so it had to be acknowledged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
Neither Miranda or Zertuche took the hammering Lacy took. There is a marked difference pre and post Calzaghe, Miranda looks the same and would lose to Abrahams Pavlik defeat or not. Im not sure Manfredo would take Lacy to a SD pre Calzaghe, do you?
I already Repped you, and this post hits it right on the head 10000% not to mention Lacy dosent complain AT ALL!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI disagree completely about Lacy losing all his mental strenght and fortidude.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Apart from his physical strength pretty much all Lacy has is his heart and will to win.
I have to say, I'm a big Jeff Lacy fan, in my mind no boxer gives his all more than Jeff Lacy.
To get beat for every minute of every round like he did against Joe Calzaghe but to keep fighting to the very end, to fight with a torn rotator cuff from the second round against Tyspko and pull out a win and to come back from being rocked several times against Mendoza to dig deep and make sure he won the final round and therefore the fight shows the heart and mental strength of a true champion imo.
Lacy is limited technically, and his power was overratted but for heart, determination, dedication to the sport and sheer iron will Lacy is possibly America's best fighter imo.
Mendoza karate chopped Lacy at least 20X to the back of the head
Mendoza after being rocked and stumbling landed a 3 punch combo to Lacys crouch, Jeff didnt complain
The only time I saw Lacy complain is when he tagged Mendoza and he flew backwards into the ropes and richoched off of Jeff and hit the floor.. The ref called it a slip when the ropes were the only thing holding up Mendoza
Well Miranda was beaten from ringpost to ringpost for 7 rounds. He absorbed huge punishment from a good puncher. Zertuche also absorbed big punches on a consistent basis for even longer. Miranda could take Abraham's shots in the first fight, he could not in the second one. Zertuche was totally shot after Pavlik and could not even be competative against a much lesser opponent than Pavlik after Pavlik dealt with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
Neither Miranda or Zertuche took the hammering Lacy took. There is a marked difference pre and post Calzaghe, Miranda looks the same and would lose to Abrahams Pavlik defeat or not. Im not sure Manfredo would take Lacy to a SD pre Calzaghe, do you?
Maybe it is just me, but I would rather have Joe tee off on me for 12 rounds, than have Pavlik tee off on me for 7.
I also agree however, that Joe took something away from Lacy that fight. Lacy had a very rough go of it that fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanrwWell Miranda was beaten from ringpost to ringpost for 7 rounds. He absorbed huge punishment from a good puncher. Zertuche also absorbed big punches on a consistent basis for even longer. Miranda could take Abraham's shots in the first fight, he could not in the second one. Zertuche was totally shot after Pavlik and could not even be competative against a much lesser opponent than Pavlik after Pavlik dealt with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
Neither Miranda or Zertuche took the hammering Lacy took. There is a marked difference pre and post Calzaghe, Miranda looks the same and would lose to Abrahams Pavlik defeat or not. Im not sure Manfredo would take Lacy to a SD pre Calzaghe, do you?
Maybe it is just me, but I would rather have Joe tee off on me for 12 rounds, than have Pavlik tee off on me for 7.
I also agree however, that Joe took something away from Lacy that fight. Lacy had a very rough go of it that fight.
You cannot seriously be saying that Miranda took more punishment in the Pavlik fight than Lacy did vs Calzaghe!
Calzaghe has far faster hands far better footwork and doesnt hit as hard so you are getting punched to the brink but not quite done then next round same thing. Pavlik at 160lbs beats you up the its over its not prolonged plus fighter will always feel they have a chance against such a limited plodder so they gain confidence. Lacy was beat every second of every round.
I think Miranda was ruined by Abraham, Pavlik just finished his career off.
Jeff Lacy was never taught to BOX and was never taught how to set up his left hook properly. Had Lacy used more combinations and had faster handspeed or better timing then his career would have been salvaged after the Calzaghe fight. I think he just spent too much time in the amateurs
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by DeanrwWell Miranda was beaten from ringpost to ringpost for 7 rounds. He absorbed huge punishment from a good puncher. Zertuche also absorbed big punches on a consistent basis for even longer. Miranda could take Abraham's shots in the first fight, he could not in the second one. Zertuche was totally shot after Pavlik and could not even be competative against a much lesser opponent than Pavlik after Pavlik dealt with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Maybe it is just me, but I would rather have Joe tee off on me for 12 rounds, than have Pavlik tee off on me for 7.
I also agree however, that Joe took something away from Lacy that fight. Lacy had a very rough go of it that fight.
You cannot seriously be saying that Miranda took more punishment in the Pavlik fight than Lacy did vs Calzaghe!
Calzaghe has far faster hands far better footwork and doesnt hit as hard so you are getting punched to the brink but not quite done then next round same thing. Pavlik at 160lbs beats you up the its over its not prolonged plus fighter will always feel they have a chance against such a limited plodder so they gain confidence. Lacy was beat every second of every round.
There you go again. Calling Pavlik a limited Plodder. I guess that is an upgrade from bum like you called him before.
And Calzaghe nuthuggers wonder why he is so disliked. It is not Joe, but people like you.
...it's the same with Hatton and Haye
To quote Mike Tyson : "...you probably shouldn't talk any more."Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee
It goes both ways. You can call Calzaghe a feather fisted pitter patter and say that Pavlik hitting you for 7 rounds is a lot worse then bearing Calzaghe or 12. Lacy was worn down but never really hurt like he was last night against Calzaghe. Miranda was beaten into a slump on the ropes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanrwQuote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
You cannot seriously be saying that Miranda took more punishment in the Pavlik fight than Lacy did vs Calzaghe!
Calzaghe has far faster hands far better footwork and doesnt hit as hard so you are getting punched to the brink but not quite done then next round same thing. Pavlik at 160lbs beats you up the its over its not prolonged plus fighter will always feel they have a chance against such a limited plodder so they gain confidence. Lacy was beat every second of every round.
There you go again. Calling Pavlik a limited Plodder. I guess that is an upgrade from bum like you called him before.
And Calzaghe nuthuggers wonder why he is so disliked. It is not Joe, but people like you.
Never in here will you find I called Joe featherfisted or a slapper. What I said was I would rather endure Joe in the ring for 12 rounds than pavlik for 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by amatIt goes both ways. You can call Calzaghe a feather fisted pitter patter and say that Pavlik hitting you for 7 rounds is a lot worse then bearing Calzaghe or 12. Lacy was worn down but never really hurt like he was last night against Calzaghe. Miranda was beaten into a slump on the ropes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanrwQuote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
There you go again. Calling Pavlik a limited Plodder. I guess that is an upgrade from bum like you called him before.
And Calzaghe nuthuggers wonder why he is so disliked. It is not Joe, but people like you.
Pavlik just seems to really hurt people when he unloads. Joe does not have his type of power. I was just stating the obvious as I see it. Marcus stated earlier that Miranda did not take a beating like Lacy did. I beg to differ on that.