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I can see this fight happening in wales next year and it being Joe's last fight i think deep down he will want to finish his career in front of 70,000 of his fans yes he beat Roy Jones last night but is it the best way to go out. I would love him to rematch Hopkins but he says he won't rematch Hopkins so i see him fighting Chad so if this happens what do you guys think will happen?
I just mentioned this, I think JC can beat him and then go out to fight Froch and call it a day.
Froch and Dawson have the best chance IMO of doing the goods on JC.
I know im a hater of Calzaghe but surely even to his die hard fans this would be a better fight to go out on in front of 70,000 fans or even Froch.
I want him to stop now. I actually think he has a good chin (did you see the slow mos of some of those shots he took last night) but he is open to get caught cold early on and one day he won't get up.
I think there was a clause in the contract to say that if RJJ won last night that there was to be a rematch, probably at Cardiff Stadium.
That obviously didn't happen, and I doubt any rematch with RJJ would be much of a pull after the one-sided result last night.
That leaves realisticaly, Froch, Hopkins or Dawson. He's said he's already beaten Hopkins and doesn't fancy it again.
Would Chad Dawson be a big enough name to fight him if it was to be his swan song? Doubt he'll be well known to the UK man on the street.
If Froch keeps winning I can see it being him. An all UK contest in Cardiff would be a good crowd puller, and lets JC say goodbye to his home fans.
The fight will happen, Joe will not retire here in the States.
He'll retire fighting his last fight in Cardiff.
I voted BCD and why not.
I think Joes an ATG, I think he has fun in there when he's fighting and once he gets going there's no stopping him.
When he was gonna fight Kess, I said I would love to see Joe "try" and showboat vs. Kess see what happens.
Well Joe did showboat and Joe did everything I said he would not do vs. Kess. He shut me up.
With that being said BCDs my boy and I've seen this kid go from prospect, to contender to Champ with my very own eyes. I can't help it but think he'd be overwhelmed walking into Millenium Stadium with that hostile crowd. BCDs very humble and soft spoken, I just think a scenario like that one would play a role in his head.
But I still gotta back him on it. If he can get past that and just go in there and do his thing I think he's got a better shot at beating Joe then Hopkins or RJJ ever did. Hes actually the only fighter I'd give a shot at beating Joe.
BCD would need to execute his plan perfectly, staying busy throwing combos. He can not go to the ropes the way he did vs. Tarver as you can see that's when Joe steals rounds.
I can't help it think BCD does all the things that Joe needs him to do in order to win. :-\
All in all it will def. happen and it will be a great showdown... :cool:
I think Chad Dawson is a great athlete, a little better of one then Joe Calzaghe, I think he isn't a guy who is easy to impose your will on because he loves a good fight(ask Glen Johnson), they had a nasty war that I think Calzaghe could appreciate. That being said ITS Joe fucking Calzaghe, He throws a ton of punches, he's quick as a rabbit, he might not hit super hard, but he gets away with it, he is difficult to hit on the outside, and He has a great jaw. I would be interested to see how Chad's body work would do against Calzaghe, I think he could keep Joe at a distance like Kessler did, but be more effective with it, he seems to have a better work rate then Kessler and he is much faster, but Kessler tried his hardest.
I almost wish this doesn't happen because how Calzaghe fights his experience is his ally, Kessler never went into deep waters and I think he couldn't cope with Calzaghe, I think Dawson maybe in 3 years would be truly ready for this version of Calzaghe, but not yet, you need to be a young veteran IMO to beat a guy like Calzaghe(A LHW Mayweather of sorts).
Chad is faster has knockout power in both hands and can fight outside or inside against anyone. Chad would win this one easy and i would put money on it anytime.
The fight aginst Jones was made by the Calzaghe camp to pad a very lacking resume filled with no name fighters. Alot of europeans wonder why Calzaghe is not respected out in the states and it comes down to one thing, he ducked from the best. Manhandling an overated lacy is his one claim to an actual decent fighter in my opinion.
I dont expect him to rewrite a carrer filled with lousy choices but if he wants to go out with some status here he will have to fight Dawson atleast
welcome to the forum Chad :)
Knockout power? I dont think hes power is anything special at world class hes knocked out no one, Chad is dangerous but i think Joe's will and determination will be to much more Bd Chad.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEACH
I have seen chad fight and there is nothing he does that leads me to believe he can beat Calzaghe. Calzaghe is a special fighter with underrated power. I am by no means a hugger....I was hoping Jones would have pulled out the win. I hope the pittipat and slap talk would stop though as I believe Joe has very underrated power. He had Lacy, Kessler, and Jones hurt during their fights. There is also a reason Hopkins was buying time "faking" low blows during his fight. Chad is frequently stunned by punches and I believe when he finds out Joe's slaps pack some pop he will shell up a bit and Joe will have his way.
Dawson for me is a big big test for Calzaghe.
I think it's important to state that against Hopkins and Jones Jr Calzaghe was a fairly large betting favourite. He was expected to win those fights.
Against Lacy and Kessler however it was much more uncertain. A betting underdog against Lacy, and only a marginal favourite against Kessler.
A Dawson fight is another one of those 'Who knows how it would go' kind of fights.
I expect if Calzaghe rematched Hopkins he'd start a clear betting favourite.
If he fights Dawson, I reckon the odds would be much closer.
Dawson DESERVES either Hopkins or Calzaghe imo. He's the WBC and IBF world champ and he's beating the other champs to earn his titles.
Calzaghe has yet to win a belt at 175 and surely he'd like to retire a double weight world champ, a claim he cannot yet make.
If he beats Dawson he's not only a two weight champ but he's a two weight universally recognised world champ.
Beat Dawson to become THE man at 175.
And like Kessler and Lacy before him Dawson deserves that shot imo, he's the number one contender no question
I agree with Bilbo, not only a two weight world champ, but a proper undisputed two weight world champ. It's the motivation that I'd find a worry for Joe, it's not as if they've been on a collision course for some time like against Kessler or Hopkins, yet he was p[retty casual in his approach for even the Hopkins fight.
It would be bad for boxing in general as well if Dawson were to lose to one of the old guard.
These polls are rather pointless when Joe is concerned, while mick has a legitimate reason to support his man, all the haters truly believe that the ONLY fighters Joe can beat are the 45 he's already faced (not sure, think there was only one rematch) and if there was a poll of Joe Vs Pavlik/Froch/Inkin/Tsypko/Andrade/Amir Khan/Kid thunder/Bert Sugar they'd bet against him.
haha that is so true, much credit must go to Frank Warren and the rest of Calzaghe's advisors for not only finding him a steady diet of bums and stiff's but even more impressively getting him the fights against genuine tough opponents and setting the fight date to coincide with his opponent have a real off day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomp
46 straight lucky wins, how jammy is that?
Calzaghe is the linear champion. That is far more important than Dawson's IBF belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Dawson ONLY has that belt because off the way events unfolded after Roy gave it up when moving to heavyweight. It doesn't mean Roy wasn't the top lightheavy because he no longer had the IBF belt. That is nonsense.
Roy then lost to Tarver at lightheavy. That makes Tarver the top man. Then Johnson beat Tarver. Tarver beat Johnson. Hopkins beat Tarver. Calzaghe beat Hopkins.
To say Calzaghe needs an ALPHABET to claim he's a double weight champ is silly.
Calzaghe could have fought Clinton Woods for this very same IBF title instead of facing Hopkins for the linear title. What is the more important fight? ;)
Joe will defo fight again - and it will be a farewell at the millenium stadium. If he ends up havingvb two more and wins then i think he will be too close to beating Marciano's record not to want to carry on.
RJJ rematch no chance.
Hopkins had had his chance so apart from the far too dangerous rematches with Peter Manfredo or Tocker Pudwill, Dawson is the only real logical opponent.
See youy in Cardiff in the spring ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterCalzaghe is the linear champion. That is far more important than Dawson's IBF belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Dawson ONLY has that belt because off the way events unfolded after Roy gave it up when moving to heavyweight. It doesn't mean Roy wasn't the top lightheavy because he no longer had the IBF belt. That is nonsense.
Roy then lost to Tarver at lightheavy. That makes Tarver the top man. Then Johnson beat Tarver. Tarver beat Johnson. Hopkins beat Tarver. Calzaghe beat Hopkins.
To say Calzaghe needs an ALPHABET to claim he's a double weight champ is silly.
Calzaghe could have fought Clinton Woods for this very same IBF title instead of facing Hopkins for the linear title. What is the more important fight? ;)
Yeah but sometimes the title of 'linear' champ is almost as much bullshit as the alphabelt titles Fenst ;)
Hopkins had ONE fight at light heavy, against Tarver, then he gave up the belt to fight a light middleweight and a supermiddleweight. His last fight was against a middleweight. So although he beat Tarver to indeed win the linear title he has been as much a part of that division as Roy Jones was at heavyweight. Hopkins has made no attempt to unify belts at 175, to fight the other champs at 175 or be a factor at all at 175.
Meanwhile Chad Dawson has won two world titles at the weight class beating both Thomaz Adamek and Antonio Tarver, who had won his belt back with a dominant win over Woods. He also beat the always dangerous Glen Johnson.
Although Hopkins, Calzaghe and Jones Jr all fight at 175 (or 170) it's Dawson that is actually fighting light heavyweights and winning world titles.
Hopkins and Calzaghe have basically been using the 175 weight limit rather than taking part in the division's battles for titles.
It's a bit like when Mayorga and Vargas fought at middleweight, they wern't relavent to the division at all, it was just the weight limit they set.
If Calzaghe really wants to lay claim to being the champ in two weight classes he needs to fight the guy who is actually winning world titles there and beating all the other light heavies.
Hopkins only fought one and Jones hasn't beaten a decent light heavy in years.
Calzaghe beating Hopkins (who only ever fought once at light heavy, at least against a light heavyweight) in a not title fight hardly qualifies him as clearing out that division does it?
If he wants to truly be able to claim ownership of two weight classes he needs to fight and defeat Chad Dawson.
Ahhh.. Bilbo you're never gonna get it. So mesmerised by the letters and shiny belts :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterCalzaghe is the linear champion. That is far more important than Dawson's IBF belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Dawson ONLY has that belt because off the way events unfolded after Roy gave it up when moving to heavyweight. It doesn't mean Roy wasn't the top lightheavy because he no longer had the IBF belt. That is nonsense.
Roy then lost to Tarver at lightheavy. That makes Tarver the top man. Then Johnson beat Tarver. Tarver beat Johnson. Hopkins beat Tarver. Calzaghe beat Hopkins.
To say Calzaghe needs an ALPHABET to claim he's a double weight champ is silly.
Calzaghe could have fought Clinton Woods for this very same IBF title instead of facing Hopkins for the linear title. What is the more important fight? ;)
Yeah but sometimes the title of 'linear' champ is almost as much bullshit as the alphabelt titles Fenst ;)
Hopkins had ONE fight at light heavy, against Tarver, then he gave up the belt to fight a light middleweight and a supermiddleweight. His last fight was against a middleweight. So although he beat Tarver to indeed win the linear title he has been as much a part of that division as Roy Jones was at heavyweight. Hopkins has made no attempt to unify belts at 175, to fight the other champs at 175 or be a factor at all at 175.
Meanwhile Chad Dawson has won two world titles at the weight class beating both Thomaz Adamek and Antonio Tarver, who had won his belt back with a dominant win over Woods. He also beat the always dangerous Glen Johnson.
Although Hopkins, Calzaghe and Jones Jr all fight at 175 (or 170) it's Dawson that is actually fighting light heavyweights and winning world titles.
Hopkins and Calzaghe have basically been using the 175 weight limit rather than taking part in the division's battles for titles.
It's a bit like when Mayorga and Vargas fought at middleweight, they wern't relavent to the division at all, it was just the weight limit they set.
If Calzaghe really wants to lay claim to being the champ in two weight classes he needs to fight the guy who is actually winning world titles there and beating all the other light heavies.
Hopkins only fought one and Jones hasn't beaten a decent light heavy in years.
Calzaghe beating Hopkins (who only ever fought once at light heavy, at least against a light heavyweight) in a not title fight hardly qualifies him as clearing out that division does it?
If he wants to truly be able to claim ownership of two weight classes he needs to fight and defeat Chad Dawson.
Dawson BEAT Tarver to become the IBF champ. That win is solidifying his place at the top of 175 IYO, right?
What makes Dawson's win over Tarver better than Hopkins? Cause it was for the letters IBF instead of IBO?
Hopkins had ALREADY beaten Tarver. Tarver WAS the BEST lightheavy when Hopkins beat him. That makes Hopkins the BEST lightheavy. How can it be any other way?
A lack of star fighters in the division led Hopkins to pursue other avenues. He had already slaughtered Glen Johnson years before.
Dawson may very well be the best fighter at 175. But he needs to beat the real champ - Calzaghe - to prove it. Not the other way round ;)
Hopkins beat Tarver. Dawson beat Tarver, Johnson, Adamek, Mendoza, Harding and Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterAhhh.. Bilbo you're never gonna get it. So mesmerised by the letters and shiny belts :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Yeah but sometimes the title of 'linear' champ is almost as much bullshit as the alphabelt titles Fenst ;)
Hopkins had ONE fight at light heavy, against Tarver, then he gave up the belt to fight a light middleweight and a supermiddleweight. His last fight was against a middleweight. So although he beat Tarver to indeed win the linear title he has been as much a part of that division as Roy Jones was at heavyweight. Hopkins has made no attempt to unify belts at 175, to fight the other champs at 175 or be a factor at all at 175.
Meanwhile Chad Dawson has won two world titles at the weight class beating both Thomaz Adamek and Antonio Tarver, who had won his belt back with a dominant win over Woods. He also beat the always dangerous Glen Johnson.
Although Hopkins, Calzaghe and Jones Jr all fight at 175 (or 170) it's Dawson that is actually fighting light heavyweights and winning world titles.
Hopkins and Calzaghe have basically been using the 175 weight limit rather than taking part in the division's battles for titles.
It's a bit like when Mayorga and Vargas fought at middleweight, they wern't relavent to the division at all, it was just the weight limit they set.
If Calzaghe really wants to lay claim to being the champ in two weight classes he needs to fight the guy who is actually winning world titles there and beating all the other light heavies.
Hopkins only fought one and Jones hasn't beaten a decent light heavy in years.
Calzaghe beating Hopkins (who only ever fought once at light heavy, at least against a light heavyweight) in a not title fight hardly qualifies him as clearing out that division does it?
If he wants to truly be able to claim ownership of two weight classes he needs to fight and defeat Chad Dawson.
Dawson BEAT Tarver to become the IBF champ. That win is solidifying his place at the top of 175 IYO, right?
What makes Dawson's win over Tarver better than Hopkins? Cause it was for the letters IBF instead of IBO?
Hopkins had ALREADY beaten Tarver. Tarver WAS the BEST lightheavy when Hopkins beat him. That makes Hopkins the BEST lightheavy. How can it be any other way?
A lack of star fighters in the division led Hopkins to pursue other avenues. He had already slaughtered Glen Johnson years before.
Dawson may very well be the best fighter at 175. But he needs to beat the real champ - Calzaghe - to prove it. ;)
Linear title aside who has done more at 175?
Let's go over it again.
Hopkins
Tarver
Dawson
Tarver
Johnson
Adamek
Mendoza
Harding
Ruiz
I say again, DAWSON is the guy at 175 who is winning titles and beating all the light heavyweight champs and contenders.
Calzaghe may have got the linear title but that's just a nice little history lesson in the how's and when's the mythical belt changed hands.
In all practical and common sense terms Dawson is the man to beat at 175 in order for Calzaghe to be able to claim he unified two weight classes.
What's mythical about "the man that beat the man" system?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboHopkins beat Tarver. Dawson beat Tarver, Johnson, Adamek, Mendoza, Harding and Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterAhhh.. Bilbo you're never gonna get it. So mesmerised by the letters and shiny belts :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Dawson BEAT Tarver to become the IBF champ. That win is solidifying his place at the top of 175 IYO, right?
What makes Dawson's win over Tarver better than Hopkins? Cause it was for the letters IBF instead of IBO?
Hopkins had ALREADY beaten Tarver. Tarver WAS the BEST lightheavy when Hopkins beat him. That makes Hopkins the BEST lightheavy. How can it be any other way?
A lack of star fighters in the division led Hopkins to pursue other avenues. He had already slaughtered Glen Johnson years before.
Dawson may very well be the best fighter at 175. But he needs to beat the real champ - Calzaghe - to prove it. ;)
Linear title aside who has done more at 175?
Let's go over it again.
Hopkins
Tarver
Dawson
Tarver
Johnson
Adamek
Mendoza
Harding
Ruiz
I say again, DAWSON is the guy at 175 who is winning titles and beating all the light heavyweight champs and contenders.
Calzaghe may have got the linear title but that's just a nice little history lesson in the how's and when's the mythical belt changed hands.
In all practical and common sense terms Dawson is the man to beat at 175 in order for Calzaghe to be able to claim he unified two weight classes.
I agree with you Dawson is the premier fighter at 175. That was never the debate. It's NOT his alphabet title that makes him top dog though.
You originally said Calzaghe needs an alphabet to claim he's a two weight champ. That is clearly nonsense. As i said he could have fought Clinton Woods but instead chose Hopkins. ;)
For history to regard Calzaghe as the undisputed light heavyweight champ he needs to beat Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhat's mythical about "the man that beat the man" system?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboHopkins beat Tarver. Dawson beat Tarver, Johnson, Adamek, Mendoza, Harding and Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Linear title aside who has done more at 175?
Let's go over it again.
Hopkins
Tarver
Dawson
Tarver
Johnson
Adamek
Mendoza
Harding
Ruiz
I say again, DAWSON is the guy at 175 who is winning titles and beating all the light heavyweight champs and contenders.
Calzaghe may have got the linear title but that's just a nice little history lesson in the how's and when's the mythical belt changed hands.
In all practical and common sense terms Dawson is the man to beat at 175 in order for Calzaghe to be able to claim he unified two weight classes.
I agree with you Dawson is the premier fighter at 175. That was never the debate. It's NOT his alphabet title that makes him top dog though.
You originally said Calzaghe needs an alphabet to claim he's a two weight champ. That is clearly nonsense. As i said he could have fought Clinton Woods but instead chose Hopkins. ;)
If you disagree just point me in the direction of any fighter in any weight class who has been considered the undisputed champ in a weight class because he beat the man who beat the man in a non title fight but beat nobody else in that weight class?
And it's not Dawson's 'alphabet titles' that count here, its the fact that he's the only legitimate guy at 175 lbs who is actually seeking to unify the division. He holds two world belts now, IBF and WBC I believe, whihc even though they are just trinkets, is stil half of the belts in the division.
I think Joe would win.
I think Dawson would pose him a few problems though.
No - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFor history to regard Calzaghe as the undisputed light heavyweight champ he needs to beat Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhat's mythical about "the man that beat the man" system?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I agree with you Dawson is the premier fighter at 175. That was never the debate. It's NOT his alphabet title that makes him top dog though.
You originally said Calzaghe needs an alphabet to claim he's a two weight champ. That is clearly nonsense. As i said he could have fought Clinton Woods but instead chose Hopkins. ;)
If you disagree just point me in the direction of any fighter in any weight class who has been considered the undisputed champ in a weight class because he beat the man who beat the man in a non title fight but beat nobody else in that weight class?
And it's not Dawson's 'alphabet titles' that count here, its the fact that he's the only legitimate guy at 175 lbs who is actually seeking to unify the division. He holds two world belts now, IBF and WBC I believe, whihc even though they are just trinkets, is stil half of the belts in the division.
Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world champion?
I'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFor history to regard Calzaghe as the undisputed light heavyweight champ he needs to beat Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
If you disagree just point me in the direction of any fighter in any weight class who has been considered the undisputed champ in a weight class because he beat the man who beat the man in a non title fight but beat nobody else in that weight class?
And it's not Dawson's 'alphabet titles' that count here, its the fact that he's the only legitimate guy at 175 lbs who is actually seeking to unify the division. He holds two world belts now, IBF and WBC I believe, whihc even though they are just trinkets, is stil half of the belts in the division.
Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world title winner?
I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.
Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.
Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.
So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.
Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.
Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.
Blimey, you're confusing me now. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world title winner?
I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.
Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.
Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.
So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.
Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.
Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.
The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.
The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.
As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think. :-\
I agree. Froch has a bigger name in England than Dawson and is not as good of a boxer. Less risk more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by irons
Yep that's it in a nutshellQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterBlimey, you're confusing me now. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.
Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.
Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.
So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.
Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.
Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.
The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.
The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.
As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think. :-\
I'm with Bilbs on this petty little semantics argument, Briggs beating Foreman never made him undisputed champion.
Regardless if you're in a one weight era or not IMO beating the linear champ might make you the champ, but not necesarily the undisputed champion, you have to do something to consolidate it. Maybe in the old days if you cleared out most the opposition BEFORE your shot, and then beat the linear champ then you would be undisputed champ, like when Frazier beat Ali. If Haye were to get lucky and KO Wlad in his second fight at Heavy he doesn't automatically become THE man.
That's why I'd knd of like to see Joe V Dawson as he would consolidate his position as a genuine two weight champ, but obviously he'd have to weigh up the risk as the possibility of losing his 0 may be too much, especially if he's unmotivated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYep that's it in a nutshellQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterBlimey, you're confusing me now. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.
The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.
As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think. :-\
Calzaghe is the true LHW champion of the world.
I think as time goes on the alaphabet belts mean less and less to real fans.
All they do is confuse fight fans and put people off the sport.
I only recognise The Ring champions as real world champs these days.
My point was - Calzaghe doesn't need a poxy alphabet to be recognised as a two weight champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomp
He is the man that beat the man.
Dawson is currently the best lightheavy. Calzaghe is currently the lightheavy champion. So naturally that is the best fight available to enhance both fighters reputation. ;)
Not this old chesnut again i remember Fenster/Bilbo, going over this not long ago.
~Have you not read any of the 1000 plus words I wrote? :rolleyes::pQuote:
Originally Posted by porkyparaQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboYep that's it in a nutshellQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Calzaghe is the true LHW champion of the world.
I think as time goes on the alaphabet belts mean less and less to real fans.
All they do is confuse fight fans and put people off the sport.
I only recognise The Ring champions as real world champs these days.
It's not because Dawson has a belt that makes him the man to beat it's the fact that he's the only top light heavyweight who actually fights light heavyweights!
Hopkins had ONE fight at light heavy, beating Tarver. He then gave up the belt and fought Winky at 170 who had never gone above 160 and then fought Joe a supermiddle who had never fought outside that weight class before. Both Joe and B Hop weight 173 for the fight, not sure if that was an agreed catchweight or not but Calzaghe came in at just under 175 for Jones.
Hopkins never wanted anything to do with the 175 weight class other than the chance to call himself a two weight world champ.
Calzaghe beats Hopkins, in a fight which might just as well have taken place at 168 and then fights Jones Jr, which although a huge marquee fight against a boxing legend, wasn't against a fighter rated as one of the real current threats in the division.
Meanwhile Dawson has been fighting and beating everybody.
It's similar to Juan diaz when he was winning all the belts and defeating everyone in the lightweight divsion whilst Casamayor was scraping through thanks to corrupt judging and going life and death with relatively ordinary fighters like Katsidis.
If Juan Diaz had beaten Nate Campbell and then Marquez had beaten Casamayor before vacating the belt and fighting Juan Guzman back at superfeather, then Valero came up and beat Marquez in a non title fight we'd be in a similar situation.
And I'd be adament that Valero wasn't the number 1 in the division, Juan Diaz would have been, not becuase of trinket belts but becuase he was the guy winning fights in the lightweight division.
So if Calzaghe wants to be able to truly lay claim to being king at 175 he needs to beat the other unbeaten fighter who has won 2 world title belts and beaten Tarver, Johnson and Adamek three bona fida world champs
If you follow this linear champ stuff to the letter you'd have to say that for a brief period in 2006 Carlos Baldimor was the best fighter in the world at 147 lbs.
Is that really the case?
Did his win over Zab mean it was job done, he'd cleaned up at welterweight and could down in history as an undisputed universally recognised champ?
This is a rhetorical question obviously any answer other than 'FUCKING HELL NO!!!!' is completely wrong ;)
Ive explained to you before being the linear champ doesn't necessarily mean you're the best fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Mate you seem to contradict and repeat yourself so much, please answer me this
Do you class Hopkins as a lightheavy champ?
Yeah of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIve explained to you before being the linear champ doesn't necessarily mean you're the best fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Mate you seem to contradict and repeat yourself so much, please answer me this
Do you class Hopkins as a lightheavy champ?
It's not complicated Fenster. I recognise both Hopkins and Calzaghe as light heavyweight champs, I have no problem with people calling Calzaghe a two weight world champ.
BUT he's not the undisputed champion at 175 because he hasn't unified the division and beaten the obvious rival.
He can't claim dominance over the 175 lb division like he can with the 168 lb division because he hasn't beaten all of his rivals.
Look back to the days of Ancient Rome and the triumvirate between Julius Ceaser, Pompey and Marcus Crassus. They each held control over parts of the Roman empire. Crassus was killed in battle at Carhaee and eliminated, and then Ceaser and Pompey slugged it out for the title of Roman Emporer.
Fast forward to now and we have Hopkins, Calzaghe and Dawson all with a claim to the lightheavyweight throne. Hopkins has been defeated and unless he can rally and force calzaghe to do battle again is now out of the running.
That leaves Calzaghe to face Dawson for the crown.
It's great to have a lineage but what's important is for ALL the important fights to be made and for the best fighters to fight each other.
If Calzaghe retires and doesn't fight Dawson, whilst he's still a legend, and all time great he won't have completed his conquest at 175, he would have withdrawn.
Continuing with my Roman analogy, it's like when Ceaser defeated Vercingetorix and conquered the Gauls (supermidlleweight division) and then decided to invade Britain (lightheavy).
Instead of conquering them, he fought a couple of meaningless skirmish battles, bogged down for the winter and then fucked off.
Now if the history books had reported Julius as ruler of Britain it would have been wrong. He got a couple of minor tribal kings to swear allegiance but he couldn't take the country and so 'retired' undefeated as it were in battle but without adding the British Isles to his resume.
So Calzaghe, the modern day conquerer has a chance to go one better than Julius Ceaser if he can pacify the lightheavyweight division and break a 2000 year old record!
He needs to fight Dawson :)
Thank fuck for that. I'm not reading the rest you nutter. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboYeah of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIve explained to you before being the linear champ doesn't necessarily mean you're the best fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Mate you seem to contradict and repeat yourself so much, please answer me this
Do you class Hopkins as a lightheavy champ?
It's not complicated Fenster. I recognise both Hopkins and Calzaghe as light heavyweight champs, I have no problem with people calling Calzaghe a two weight world champ.
BUT he's not the undisputed champion at 175 because he hasn't unified the division and beaten the obvious rival.
He can't claim dominance over the 175 lb division like he can with the 168 lb division because he hasn't beaten all of his rivals.
Look back to the days of Ancient Rome and the triumvirate between Julius Ceaser, Pompey and Marcus Crassus. They each held control over parts of the Roman empire. Crassus was killed in battle at Carhaee and eliminated, and then Ceaser and Pompey slugged it out for the title of Roman Emporer.
Fast forward to now and we have Hopkins, Calzaghe and Dawson all with a claim to the lightheavyweight throne. Hopkins has been defeated and unless he can rally and force calzaghe to do battle again is now out of the running.
That leaves Calzaghe to face Dawson for the crown.
It's great to have a lineage but what's important is for ALL the important fights to be made and for the best fighters to fight each other.
If Calzaghe retires and doesn't fight Dawson, whilst he's still a legend, and all time great he won't have completed his conquest at 175, he would have withdrawn.
Continuing with my Roman analogy, it's like when Ceaser defeated Vercingetorix and conquered the Gauls (supermidlleweight division) and then decided to invade Britain (lightheavy).
Instead of conquering them, he fought a couple of meaningless skirmish battles, bogged down for the winter and then fucked off.
Now if the history books had reported Julius as ruler of Britain it would have been wrong. He got a couple of minor tribal kings to swear allegiance but he couldn't take the country and so 'retired' undefeated as it were in battle but without adding the British Isles to his resume.
So Calzaghe, the modern day conquerer has a chance to go one better than Julius Ceaser if he can pacify the lightheavyweight division and break a 2000 year old record!
He needs to fight Dawson :)
You accept they didn't need an alphabet to be recognised as champ. That's all ive been getting at from the start.
Fenster remember when i told you when Chad Dawson, beats Antonio Tarver. That people will want Chad Dawson vs Joe Calzaghe more so than Kelly Pavlik vs Joe Calzaghe ? will there you have it a prediction come true :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupie
To be fair I think it was more Pavlik's tame surrender to Hopkins where he mentally gave up without a fight that meant Dawson became the people's choice.
Had Pavlik beaten Hopkins like he was expected to everyone would be wanting Pavlik Hopkins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterThank fuck for that. I'm not reading the rest you nutter. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboYeah of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
It's not complicated Fenster. I recognise both Hopkins and Calzaghe as light heavyweight champs, I have no problem with people calling Calzaghe a two weight world champ.
BUT he's not the undisputed champion at 175 because he hasn't unified the division and beaten the obvious rival.
He can't claim dominance over the 175 lb division like he can with the 168 lb division because he hasn't beaten all of his rivals.
Look back to the days of Ancient Rome and the triumvirate between Julius Ceaser, Pompey and Marcus Crassus. They each held control over parts of the Roman empire. Crassus was killed in battle at Carhaee and eliminated, and then Ceaser and Pompey slugged it out for the title of Roman Emporer.
Fast forward to now and we have Hopkins, Calzaghe and Dawson all with a claim to the lightheavyweight throne. Hopkins has been defeated and unless he can rally and force calzaghe to do battle again is now out of the running.
That leaves Calzaghe to face Dawson for the crown.
It's great to have a lineage but what's important is for ALL the important fights to be made and for the best fighters to fight each other.
If Calzaghe retires and doesn't fight Dawson, whilst he's still a legend, and all time great he won't have completed his conquest at 175, he would have withdrawn.
Continuing with my Roman analogy, it's like when Ceaser defeated Vercingetorix and conquered the Gauls (supermidlleweight division) and then decided to invade Britain (lightheavy).
Instead of conquering them, he fought a couple of meaningless skirmish battles, bogged down for the winter and then fucked off.
Now if the history books had reported Julius as ruler of Britain it would have been wrong. He got a couple of minor tribal kings to swear allegiance but he couldn't take the country and so 'retired' undefeated as it were in battle but without adding the British Isles to his resume.
So Calzaghe, the modern day conquerer has a chance to go one better than Julius Ceaser if he can pacify the lightheavyweight division and break a 2000 year old record!
He needs to fight Dawson :)
You accept they didn't need an alphabet to be recognised as champ. That's all ive been getting at from the start.
Fucking read it! I compared Calzaghe to Julius Ceasar, linked the Hopkins, Calzaghe and Dawson to the first triumvirate and likened Calzaghe's current campaign to Caeser's conquest of Gaul and the subsequently aborted attmept at the conquest of Britain. It was a wonderful imaginative piece and you'll be sorry if you don't read it.
the same thing will happen that happened to hatton he will get knocked the fuck out if he fights chad an all of his fans will start the racist name callin an cryin an excuses blah blah fuckin blah we all kno hes scared ur scared of what chad can an will do