Hearns
Hagler
Leonard
Who was the best P4p ?.. plz rate and expalain
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Hearns
Hagler
Leonard
Who was the best P4p ?.. plz rate and expalain
From those 3.
SRL
Hagler
Hearns
*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.
I also don't think there is a right or wrong way to rate those 3.
Anyway you put them you can have an great arguement.
It boils down to what you put more emphasis to and also in some cases who you are biased for... ;)
For me neither of those 3 are favorites of mine, I like them and I enjoy their fights and they are all time greats.
I probably enjoy Hearns the most of those 3.
That's like saying which lager is bestQuote:
Originally Posted by gest12645
Cobra
San Miguel
Corona
I can't rate them in any order. All great fighters
:(That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Luckly I've delt with someone like you before who questioned Durans P4P status. (Not that theres anything wrong with questioning)Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM:(That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
But people don't look at the big picture...
A boxers greatness is not measured by 1 or 2 or 3 things. It's a mixture of a handful of things. Durans great because he fought through adversity because he beat all time greats. Because he fought the best of his era, the next era and the next era. Because when he has listed as the underdog he came out on top, because when they said he was done he won. Because his skills were amazing because he could adapt to any style in the ring.
Here's a post that should put things into light a bit more for you as far as Durans career.
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post436770
As for the P4P question here's my all time P4P list.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
I should say my most recent P4P list because it changes a bit as time passes and I learn more about boxers.
All of the lists I make, I base them of fighters I've seen myself with my own eyes.
I refuse to list ANY fighter whom I have not seen any fights of and have ONLY read things about. Which is why you will never see me list Saddler, Benny, Loughran, Greb etc. etc. etc. because the footage I've seen if any has been very limited.
1. SRR
2. Ali
3. Armstrong
4. Duran
5. Alexis
6. SRL
7. Pernell
8. JCC
9. Monzon
10. "Finito" Lopez
Actually I do think I look at the big picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickLuckly I've delt with someone like you before who questioned Durans P4P status. (Not that theres anything wrong with questioning)Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM:(That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
But people don't look at the big picture...
A boxers greatness is not measured by 1 or 2 or 3 things. It's a mixture of a handful of things. Durans great because he fought through adversity because he beat all time greats. Because he fought the best of his era, the next era and the next era. Because when he has listed as the underdog he came out on top, because when they said he was done he won. Because his skills were amazing because he could adapt to any style in the ring.
Here's a post that should put things into light a bit more for you as far as Durans career.
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post436770
I know he lost to all of the big 4 or 5 you rank him above, add Benitez to that list. I know he never had a succesful title defence above lightweight. I know when it comes to victories over the best there are several who have more.
Anyway I don't really have the patience to spend what will obviously be a lot of time going through these points with a fine tooth comb. Except to say that a lot of your points are subjective. I've followed the sport closely for many years, although I probably haven't watched as many fights as you have. Buying or downloading old fights is not the way I like to spend my time and/or money.
A lot of it depends on what your criteria are for greatness. Lots of room for opinion there. Sure Duran is an all time great, but to be consistently ranked top 5 by so many, I don't agree. Not so much that he doesn't deserve it, just that there are several others who are equally deserving IMO, who never get ranked as high as he does.
p.s. your list is pretty good IMO, cheers keep up the good work
SRL
he beat them all
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickAs for the P4P question here's my all time P4P list.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
I should say my most recent P4P list because it changes a bit as time passes and I learn more about boxers.
All of the lists I make, I base them of fighters I've seen myself with my own eyes.
I refuse to list ANY fighter whom I have not seen any fights of and have ONLY read things about. Which is why you will never see me list Saddler, Benny, Loughran, Greb etc. etc. etc. because the footage I've seen if any has been very limited.
1. SRR
2. Ali
3. Armstrong
4. Duran
5. Alexis
6. SRL
7. Pernell
8. JCC
9. Monzon
10. "Finito" Lopez
A very wise post bud ...
:badass::badass::badass:
Hey good point bud and my all time fav boxer too is SRL based on what Ive seen over the years & what he was doing in the eighties when I was a young bloke :lolololol: so Ill go with the SRL call too..Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnk
:badass::badass::badass:
Roberto i know your on about me but i watched most of the fights you mentioned, and i also learnt alot more about him. And i do no longer question him. Im not sure if you have seen this thread i made after that debate we had along time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickLuckly I've delt with someone like you before who questioned Durans P4P status. (Not that theres anything wrong with questioning)Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM:(That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
But people don't look at the big picture...
A boxers greatness is not measured by 1 or 2 or 3 things. It's a mixture of a handful of things. Durans great because he fought through adversity because he beat all time greats. Because he fought the best of his era, the next era and the next era. Because when he has listed as the underdog he came out on top, because when they said he was done he won. Because his skills were amazing because he could adapt to any style in the ring.
Here's a post that should put things into light a bit more for you as far as Durans career.
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post436770
But here it is.
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...wrong-way.html
And as for the thread i would have to say Marvin Hagler, i thought he got a draw against SRL. And he really should have only 1 loss IMO, and even though SRL may of had better single wins.
Marvin Hagler gets the number 1 spot IMO, because he was more consistent. Where as SRL retired alot and wern't as consistent, after his best win against Thomas Hearns. He only had 8 fights in 16 years.
1 Marvin Hagler
2 Sugar Ray Leonard
3 Thomas Hearns
4 Roberto Duran
IS that your all time p4p ranking of the four ICB, or just a comparison of the time when they fought each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBRoberto i know your on about me but i watched most of the fights you mentioned, and i also learnt alot more about him. And i do no longer question him. Im not sure if you have seen this thread i made after that debate we had along time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickLuckly I've delt with someone like you before who questioned Durans P4P status. (Not that theres anything wrong with questioning)Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
But people don't look at the big picture...
A boxers greatness is not measured by 1 or 2 or 3 things. It's a mixture of a handful of things. Durans great because he fought through adversity because he beat all time greats. Because he fought the best of his era, the next era and the next era. Because when he has listed as the underdog he came out on top, because when they said he was done he won. Because his skills were amazing because he could adapt to any style in the ring.
Here's a post that should put things into light a bit more for you as far as Durans career.
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post436770
But here it is.
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...wrong-way.html
And as for the thread i would have to say Marvin Hagler, i thought he got a draw against SRL. And he really should have only 1 loss IMO, and even though SRL may of had better single wins.
Marvin Hagler gets the number 1 spot IMO, because he was more consistent. Where as SRL retired alot and wern't as consistent, after his best win against Thomas Hearns. He only had 8 fights in 16 years.
1 Marvin Hagler
2 Sugar Ray Leonard
3 Thomas Hearns
4 Roberto Duran
Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM:(That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.
He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.
ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned
obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.
What would happen if Hagler at foughten a natural middleweight version of Leonard, who could move for 15 rounds, and could punch equivalently harder at the weight? Leonard was untried for all intense and purposes against a guy at the highest weight he had ever been at. He hadn't had a real fight in three years, he couldn't maintain his movement for even 6 rounds. I think people are forgetting the factor of Hagler's size, and that with that advantage he was still on basically an even playing field with an old Duran, rusty Leonard, and he basically outchinned Hearns which Leonard had done before, and lesser guys have done since.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gest12645
Well, SRL won the unofficial round robin 2-0-1
Hagler was 1-1
And Hearns was 0-2-1
Add Duran, and SRL still winds by an even bigger margin.
Some might say he got a gift draw against Hearns. But this is offset by the fact he was able to come back from a long lay off and beat an ATG!
Hagler had a better record, but SRL's opponents almost from the start represented better opposition.
My choice is SRL, but this is a good question posed by the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KelThat's like saying which lager is bestQuote:
Originally Posted by gest12645
Cobra
San Miguel
Corona
I can't rate them in any order. All great fighters
Actuallly, Negro Modelo beats your three IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethAre you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM:(That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.
He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.
ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned
obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.
Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.
What makes these lists so subjective,it depends what you want to see out of a guy that determines where you rank them
Leanord is a dazziling fighter to watch
Hearns had a mean streak 7 miles wide and twice as deep
Hagler and Duran were more complete fighters
So any attempt to rate them against each other will get tainted with your own subjective desires for what you wish to see from a fighter
Obviously not counting that Hopkins was the prison system championQuote:
Originally Posted by DAWGSWINYes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethAre you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.
He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.
ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned
obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.
you ignored my second post dude, but never mind, like you, I don't want to wast my time.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethAre you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM:(That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
duh gee, can't argue with that reasoning
He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.
subjective
Duran beat a ton of guys, Lots of people beat a ton of guys. I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them. 1-2
He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. really? do you really think Hagler was ever in danger?
He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.
oooh wow, prospects!
Hearns is my favorite out of the three but i think Hagler was the best fighter
Taeth just because one fighter can fight past 40, doesn't mean every boxer can. Take Riddick Bowe for example he was a shot fighter at 28, plus Marvin Hagler had been alot more tough fights than Bernard Hopkins. And alot of things come into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethAre you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM:(That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.
He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.
ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned
obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.
Marvin Hagler had tough fights against Thomas Hearns, Juan Roldan, Vito Antuofermo, Bennie Briscoe, Kevin Finnegan x2, Willie Monroe 1, and the brutal war with John Mugabi.
Plus he had 66 fights coming into the SRL fight, which is many more than Bernard Hopkins. And many more tough grueling fights than Bernard Hopkins.
Thomas Hearns wasn't a natural Welterweight he moved up as far as Cruiserweight, so he was very comfortable at Middleweight. Just look what he did to James Shuler at Middleweight, that will tell you how good his power still was at Middleweight.
A few more comments i would like to add is did you know Wilfredo Benitez, only trained 2 weeks for SRL ? why do you think people wanted a rematch ? Roberto Duran had stomach cramps in the rematch against SRL, and he actually wanted to pull out. But Don King wouldn't let him.
If you see clips of Roberto Duran's training sessions before, the rematch against SRL. You would see he was very flat.
Lastly theres no way Roberto Duran would ever mop the floor, with great fighters like Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez.
Marvin Hagler wasn't in his prime against SRL far from it, he had 66 fights and atleast 50 percent of those fights were tough. SRL wouldn't of even beat that version of Marvin Hagler, had he not demanded a bigger ring/gloves/12 rounds ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
And again just because a fighter started at a smaller weight class, doesn't mean thats there natural weight class. SRL went as high as almost a Light Heavyweight against Donny LaLonde, the size difference between 5'9 Marvin Hagler, 5'10 Sugar Ray Leonard isn't that much at all.
And i can't think of many Middleweights who moved gracefully, around the ring only RJJ/SRR. But a prime Marvin Hagler could cut the ring off very well.
Roberto Duran was not old he was coming off one of his best performances, against Davey Moore. Who was a highly rated prospect like David Reid, and Roberto Duran just battered him from pillar to post.
Roberto Duran was 152 for that fight and he was 156 for the Marvin Hagler fight. Roberto Duran may of not been at his best at Middleweight, but he was still very good at that weight. Which showed when he upset Iran Barkley at Middleweight in 1989.
Who had just come off beating Thomas Hearns, and Roberto Duran just ate all of Iran Barkley's shots like nothing. And Iran Barkley was a huge guy for a Middleweight he was like 6'1.
Lastly SRL didn't outchin Thomas Hearns you need to watch it again, SRL was outboxed throughout the fight. And Thomas Hearns suspect stamina let him down not his chin.
The fact is except for Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler didn't really have a size advantage. Over Thomas Hearns or Sugar Ray leonard. Marvin Hagler wasn't a big Middleweight at all.
Nor was I counting Marvin Hagler's amateur career, when he was AAU champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyObviously not counting that Hopkins was the prison system championQuote:
Originally Posted by DAWGSWINYes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
And another thing, that uppercut was at best an attention getter. People drag that out constantly as if Hearns was about to KO Hagler. If anything it hastened his own demise!
Its gotta be Leonard cuz he beat em all !
If they fought 12 round fights back then, then Hearns would've won a comfortable decision against SRL first time - and we all know what happened the 2nd time.
Mind you if my Aunty had bollox sh'ed be my uncle :-\
Going back to the Duran argument. Anybody who thinks Duran is overrated and doesn't deserve his place on the all time p4p list has only watched him on Boxrec ;) You can only tell so much on paper!
Have a look and see how many of the most respected boxing experts/writers/pundits don't have Duran top 10 all time p4p. I don't think you'll find 1!
I guess you're referring to me, since I don't see anyone else raising issues about Duran's exalted status.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Obviously has only watched him on Boxrec? OK dude if you say so. I've seen him plenty, but you go ahead and say what you want. Sure a boxer's record isn't everything, but it's a lot, unless you will tell me it doesn't count for a lot? I suppose you watched many many of his fights, and others, and done your own careful analysis? When you give your props to Calzaghe, what do you go on if it aint his record?
btw I never said he wasn't great, I only questioned whether or not he was that much greater than others who never get ranked as high. And I can give a lot of reasons based on fights they've won and lost, titles they've defended, etc. And I choose not to say yeah Duran must be top 5 just because a lot of people in the business say he is, but you go ahead and do that if you want.
Top 10 ain't too far out of line tho. :)
How many of those went the distance? Lets compare how many rounds they fought, Also regardless of whether Hopkins was in real fights, he has always been training, sparring, etc, etc all year round for those 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWGSWINQuote:
Originally Posted by TaethAre you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.
He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.
ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned
obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.
Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.
Records are like numbers; they don't lie. SRL beat both Tommy and Hagler.
Hearns
Hagler
Leonard
For the most part I don't have the time either but I make time...Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
I've have a portable DVD player, I have fights in my I-Pod, I always carry a boxing mag. so I've got something to read.
I work 1 full time job and I also do some part time work. But I squeeze in time or find a way to make time for my boxing. Fights download for me while I sleep. I burn and convert fights while I'm out doing things.
I do spend time and money on this cause it's a passion of the sport it's something that's been a part of me for so long. All I heard growing up was boxing talk between my uncles and dad. I've mentioned this before but my name is actually "Roberto" (I go by Robert) because my pops named me after Roberto Duran his fav. boxer.
So if your coming out and saying you don't understand why Duran is ranked so high up in P4P list and at the same time what you've seen of his career has been limited and is somewhat based on his record vs. SRL, Hearns & Hagler and how his record looks on paper. Then maybe you should take some time to download some fights so that you can see for yourself with your very own eyes why Duran is so highly regarded.
I just feel that Durans greatness or for that matter any boxers greatness is NOT just about numbers but like I said, skills, opposition, adversity, titles and ofcourse record/numbers is also part of it.
Duran also happens to be the 1st Latino fighter to win titles in 4 div. something that JCC couldn't do, nore Alexis. (Oddly enough the only other one to have done this is not an ATG Leo Gamez)
That's something I can def. agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
Take Alexis Arguello for example...
Nevermind his career by the numbers as far as titles, wins etc. etc.
His skills and ring generalship was amazing and so elusive.
It's fucken magical to watch him fight, yet you rarely if any see him ranked in P4P lists.
Thanks, it's so hard to try and make a list especially a P4P list.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
Like I said my list changes often, I'm sure if you ask me next week to make another one. Without looking at this one it would look different.
P4P
Hearns - welter to light heavy champ
Duran - greatest lightweight and beat Moore and Barclay
Hagler - best middleweight ever
SRL - Great heart, skills, chin but only at welter
I wasn't specifically referring to you, this is an age old debate that has gone on for years on here and that's what I was referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMI guess you're referring to me, since I don't see anyone else raising issues about Duran's exalted status.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Obviously has only watched him on Boxrec? OK dude if you say so. I've seen him plenty, but you go ahead and say what you want. Sure a boxer's record isn't everything, but it's a lot, unless you will tell me it doesn't count for a lot? I suppose you watched many many of his fights, and others, and done your own careful analysis? When you give your props to Calzaghe, what do you go on if it aint his record?
btw I never said he wasn't great, I only questioned whether or not he was that much greater than others who never get ranked as high. And I can give a lot of reasons based on fights they've won and lost, titles they've defended, etc. And I choose not to say yeah Duran must be top 5 just because a lot of people in the business say he is, but you go ahead and do that if you want.
Top 10 ain't too far out of line tho. :)
You usually know what you are talking about, but I have seen all those Hagler fights, and most of them weren't wars at all. An example was Hagler vs Mugabi, Hagler boxed the shit out of Mugabi, Mugabi was a poor boxer, he had decent speed and good power, but he didn't land all that much against Hagler.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBMarvin Hagler wasn't in his prime against SRL far from it, he had 66 fights and atleast 50 percent of those fights were tough. SRL wouldn't of even beat that version of Marvin Hagler, had he not demanded a bigger ring/gloves/12 rounds ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
And again just because a fighter started at a smaller weight class, doesn't mean thats there natural weight class. SRL went as high as almost a Light Heavyweight against Donny LaLonde, the size difference between 5'9 Marvin Hagler, 5'10 Sugar Ray Leonard isn't that much at all.
And i can't think of many Middleweights who moved gracefully, around the ring only RJJ/SRR. But a prime Marvin Hagler could cut the ring off very well.
Roberto Duran was not old he was coming off one of his best performances, against Davey Moore. Who was a highly rated prospect like David Reid, and Roberto Duran just battered him from pillar to post.
Roberto Duran was 152 for that fight and he was 156 for the Marvin Hagler fight. Roberto Duran may of not been at his best at Middleweight, but he was still very good at that weight. Which showed when he upset Iran Barkley at Middleweight in 1989.
Who had just come off beating Thomas Hearns, and Roberto Duran just ate all of Iran Barkley's shots like nothing. And Iran Barkley was a huge guy for a Middleweight he was like 6'1.
Lastly SRL didn't outchin Thomas Hearns you need to watch it again, SRL was outboxed throughout the fight. And Thomas Hearns suspect stamina let him down not his chin.
The fact is except for Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler didn't really have a size advantage. Over Thomas Hearns or Sugar Ray leonard. Marvin Hagler wasn't a big Middleweight at all.
If Hearns wasn't a natural WW, why did he fight from 1977 to 1981 more or less at welterweight? Obviously he carried his power up, but it wasn't the same as what it was p4p at welterweight. Also are you seriously goign to argue Leonard was bigger than Hagler or close to the same size because he was taller? Maybe you are going to argue that Robinson was bigger than Lamotta because he was taller. That's stupid Leonard was way smaller then Hagler in the ring, he looked about 15 pounds lighter. You talk about all Hagler's wars, waht about what Leonard went through with Duran in their first fight? What he went through against Hearns? His detached retina? Him not fighting for 3 years. Hearns and Leonard were able to move up because of their skill, speed, and power. You are using height to compare size which is stupid because Mike Tyson was shorter than Leonard and Hearns, is he smaller? Hagler had so much more natural muscle density not to mention his concrete head that he was a very big middleweight like Lamotta. He didn't fight that many wars, and the guys you mentioned like Roldan were roll overs, I mean Michael Nunn ko'ed Roldan.
90% of his opponents Hagler steam rolled. Same with Hopkins who had limited troubles against guys like Echols, but you can't call those wars.
Also of course Hearns' chin let him down, obviously he was a little spent, but mostly his inability to fight on the inside, and his inability to take Ray's power let him down. He was tired, but so was Leoanrd, Leonard was getting battered the whole fight.
ALso I didn't read it but you said Duran-Hagler wasn't close? Maybe you should watch it again. Hagler barely won that fight, and that was because of his size advantage.
Also I am not comparing records I am comparing what I've seen and Hagler was barely better than these guys at his own weight class. The fact is that he could have moved up to crusierweight or higher had he foughten longer, he wasn't that much slower against Leoanrd than he was earlier, he didn't have the ring rust Leonard had, he should have won that fihgt, and he should have dominated Duran, but he couldn't. He wasn't the best tactician, he was relatively easy to hit against the top guys, and he wasnt' overly fast. He obviously was able to steamroll average competition because like I said he was in fact a great fighter, but not like Duran or Leonard or even Hearns.
Obviously I like Leonard, but besides him I appreciate all the others equally, and I like them about the same. Just IMO Hagler wasn't as good as the rest p4p, not that he was way worse, but he wasn't as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I feel the same about Hagler. I would also take any of them over Hopkins. They were all crowd pleasers!Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethObviously I like Leonard, but besides him I appreciate all the others equally, and I like them about the same. Just IMO Hagler wasn't as good as the rest p4p, not that he was way worse, but he wasn't as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
p4p I think Hearns would have easily used his height and speed to outbox Hopkins, maybe even just him naturally going up to middleweight how he was.
p4p obviously Leonard is better than Bernard, it would be interesting though because HOpkins deals with speed and combinations so well, he was also pretty quick hismelf, but once again Hopkins beats the Leonard who came up to middleweight, but not a natural middleweight version of Leonard, Leonard against guys his own size was similar to Calzaghe, only a much sharper puncher, considerably faster, and better technique.
I think Hagler-Hopkins would be a great and even matchup. Hopkins has that ability to spoil any offense in the sport, he did it to some of the best offensive fighters in this generation (Trinidad, RJJ, Calzaghe, even a sharp ODLH had amazing offensive skills), also he spoiled an accurate puncher in Winky Wright who reminds me a lot of Hagler except that he was quicker and replaced power for defensive skills. Either way both of these guys can adapt in the ring like nobodies business, they both are street smart in there, and they both are amazingly well rounded.
vs Duran: I think its a toss up, I think it depends of their styles mesh, perhaps Hopkins' movement gives Duran a ton of problems, but I am not sure if even Hopkins being one of the best inside fighters I have ever seen could match Duran in the furnace.
I admit these guys skills, I mean Hopkins is one of my top 5 favorite fighters ever, and I still think he wouldn't fair so well against these three.
I'll reply to you tomorrow Taeth too late here and i'll have to break it all down, because you posted alot of good points.