Great Technical Boxers Limited by Mentality

Flicking through a number of recent threads I've become concious of a number of fighters who although physically and technically gifted, never reached their apparent potential because of apparent deficiencies in their mental makeup.
Some examples....

Zab Judah
This fighter immediatly springs to mind. Blessed with a savage left uppercut, copious quantities of speed and skill, Zab has literally thrown away a HoF career.
His ability to fall apart during a fight in which he had been highly succesful is infamous. In addition his meltdowns as seen in the Maywether, Cotto and Clottey fighyts have seen Zab beaten by men who are simply more focused toward their objectives and willing to ride early storms to win.
Zab never has shown the ability to endure and overcome.

Meldrick Taylor
Taylor could have been a superstar. Unrivalled amateur pedigree, sublime skills in co-ordination with near perfect physicality and athleticism, it seemed he was born to be the best.
For me he was primary contributor to his own demise. He would not allow a fighter impose themselves physically without attempting to validate his own physicality.
This saw him drawn into wars, such as that with Chavez. Fights could have been won clearly had he stuck to the task of boxing, an art he mastered. However, Taylor's mind demanded he go to war and as we all saw he was very good, but not the best at this.

Ricky Hatton
The most frustrating fighter of the past decade for me. Squandered raw talent, physicality and a hell of a lot of work with his lifestyle between fights, despite endless advice from trainers, fighters, the media, his fanbase.....

Andrew Golota
I am one of those that was very keen on Golota. However he quickly let me down. When the goping got tough, Golota got Dirty.
He was his own worst enemy in cases.
He could have been a heavyweight Arturo had he battled it out cleanly; a hero regardless of results, but he spoiled his chances of marketability and profit through the use of foul and sometimes dangerous tactics...

Feel free to add more....


Honourable mentions; (:))

Oliver McCall
Mike Tyson
Kermit Cintron

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Flicking through a number of recent threads I've become concious of a number of fighters who although physically and technically gifted, never reached their apparent potential because of apparent deficiencies in their mental makeup.
Some examples....

Zab Judah
This fighter immediatly springs to mind. Blessed with a savage left uppercut, copious quantities of speed and skill, Zab has literally thrown away a HoF career.
His ability to fall apart during a fight in which he had been highly succesful is infamous. In addition his meltdowns as seen in the Maywether, Cotto and Clottey fighyts have seen Zab beaten by men who are simply more focused toward their objectives and willing to ride early storms to win.
Zab never has shown the ability to endure and overcome.

Meldrick Taylor
Taylor could have been a superstar. Unrivalled amateur pedigree, sublime skills in co-ordination with near perfect physicality and athleticism, it seemed he was born to be the best.
For me he was primary contributor to his own demise. He would not allow a fighter impose themselves physically without attempting to validate his own physicality.
This saw him drawn into wars, such as that with Chavez. Fights could have been won clearly had he stuck to the task of boxing, an art he mastered. However, Taylor's mind demanded he go to war and as we all saw he was very good, but not the best at this.

Ricky Hatton
The most frustrating fighter of the past decade for me. Squandered raw talent, physicality and a hell of a lot of work with his lifestyle between fights, despite endless advice from trainers, fighters, the media, his fanbase.....

Andrew Golota
I am one of those that was very keen on Golota. However he quickly let me down. When the goping got tough, Golota got Dirty.
He was his own worst enemy in cases.
He could have been a heavyweight Arturo had he battled it out cleanly; a hero regardless of results, but he spoiled his chances of marketability and profit through the use of foul and sometimes dangerous tactics...

Feel free to add more....


Honourable mentions; (:))

Oliver McCall
Mike Tyson
Kermit Cintron

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cintron should replace andrew. andrew doe'snt deserve props imo.

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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

cintron should replace andrew. andrew doe'snt deserve props imo.

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Golota doesn't deserve a mention?

Add some of your own too fella:D

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

...

Ricky Hatton
The most frustrating fighter of the past decade for me. Squandered raw talent, physicality and a hell of a lot of work with his lifestyle between fights, despite endless advice from trainers, fighters, the media, his fanbase.....

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I was gonna say LOL tell me you are kidding abouy great technicality, till I saw the bit about limited mentality

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Originally Posted by CGM

I was gonna say LOL tell me you are kidding abouy great technicality, till I saw the bit about limited mentality

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Do you know the worst part?
He could have been really good technically, but just sold out on power and aggression instead...
Not in a good mood with Ricky at all atm

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

cintron should replace andrew. andrew doe'snt deserve props imo.

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Golota doesn't deserve a mention?

Add some of your own too fella:D

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jorge barrios,
acelino freitas, hussein hussein, jermaine taylor
there are problems with these guys on their mental make up imo. they could have been greater.

Was gunna say Jermain Taylor too he seems to have the skills and the speed especially his jab but seems to lack confidence in himself in the ring and also the killer instinct when he has his opponent in trouble he doesnt capitalise on it and it costs him later in the fight.

Zab Judah is easily my #1 pick for this topic. He had all the tools to be a great and everyone saw his potential. He just completely dropped the ball.

I'm a fan of Jermaine Taylor and it hurts me to see his career go down the pooper. After the two Hopkins wins his career went downhil from there IMO.

I always think that Rocky Juarez would be so much better if he didn't get so gun shy all the time.

Joshua Clottey?? not a finisher...

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

Joshua Clottey?? not a finisher...

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I was thinking of Clottey as well. The guy just puts on the brakes for some reason.

Hatton, Taylor and Cintron for sure on my list.

Hatton just seems to fight off emotion and disregards basic fundamentals in favor of being a bully boy. Ialways thought whn he attempted it, he showed very good footwork, fast hands and good head movement. But as soon as a fight gets nasty he throws caution t the wind and just seemed to get angry and wanted to bull his way through. We saw how well that went in his last 2; and een Lazcano had him in trouble.

Taylor just seems to have some sort of issues with conditioning; alot of which stems from his propensity to tighten up in a fight with nervous energy. Never understood that dude; though I always liked him.

Cintrn is just a cur who missed the tornado to OZ in search of a heart. Natural Born Quitter; I don't care what anyone says. Feliciano had him looking for exit signs many times in heir fight; and Jesse can't even throw a straight punch lol. If Cintron can't get you out with his power he's panicking; and watch him when he gets hit; fetal position time. He'll get blasted real soon.

Riddick Bowe, for sure. He had all the tools and skills to be an ATG.

On some level, James Toney was limited by his mentality. As great as his career was, if he didn't struggle so much with food and at times focus he could have been even better. He never should have lost to Thazdi or Griffin. For that matter, he would have never lost to Sam Peter if he was in proper shape.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CGM

I was gonna say LOL tell me you are kidding abouy great technicality, till I saw the bit about limited mentality

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Do you know the worst part?
He could have been really good technically, but just sold out on power and aggression instead...
Not in a good mood with Ricky at all atm

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it got him to where he was

Had he of tried to fight tszyu the way he tried to BOX pacquiao he would of been blown out in 5.

Instead he went with the simplest plan of them all that night. If your fitter and stronger than your opponent then youve simply no need to have a boxing contest instead just turn it into a fight.

The pac fight was a complete disaster and not worthy of comparisions as it was such an awful display compared to the previous 46 hatton outings.

But against mayweather he just got caught out by a guy who was too quick for him and was able to counter hattons one dimensional approach by using his feet whenever possible and working those quick hands and arm length advantage to his gain.

Ive said it once and i`ll say it again being only beaten twice by the 2 best fighters of the last decade still represents a top quality world class fighter!!

Marlon Starling
Hector Camacho

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Originally Posted by ICB

Marlon Starling
Hector Camacho

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camacho was hardly wasted talent was he??

having seen floyd snr 6-7 times over i was always rather dissapointed the way he got beatdown by sugar

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

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Originally Posted by ICB

Marlon Starling
Hector Camacho

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camacho was hardly wasted talent was he??

having seen floyd snr 6-7 times over i was always rather dissapointed the way he got beatdown by sugar

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Actually yes he was he should of achieved, more than he did with his talent. The Edwin Rosario fight ruined him and turned him into a runner. He never recovered mentally from that fight. He did have a good career im not doubting that, but he was mentally ruined from the Edwin Rosario fight. And he could have achieved much more, he was one of the most talented fighters i've ever seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Flicking through a number of recent threads I've become concious of a number of fighters who although physically and technically gifted, never reached their apparent potential because of apparent deficiencies in their mental makeup.
Some examples....

Zab Judah
This fighter immediatly springs to mind. Blessed with a savage left uppercut, copious quantities of speed and skill, Zab has literally thrown away a HoF career.
His ability to fall apart during a fight in which he had been highly succesful is infamous. In addition his meltdowns as seen in the Maywether, Cotto and Clottey fighyts have seen Zab beaten by men who are simply more focused toward their objectives and willing to ride early storms to win.
Zab never has shown the ability to endure and overcome.

Meldrick Taylor
Taylor could have been a superstar. Unrivalled amateur pedigree, sublime skills in co-ordination with near perfect physicality and athleticism, it seemed he was born to be the best.
For me he was primary contributor to his own demise. He would not allow a fighter impose themselves physically without attempting to validate his own physicality.
This saw him drawn into wars, such as that with Chavez. Fights could have been won clearly had he stuck to the task of boxing, an art he mastered. However, Taylor's mind demanded he go to war and as we all saw he was very good, but not the best at this.

Ricky Hatton
The most frustrating fighter of the past decade for me. Squandered raw talent, physicality and a hell of a lot of work with his lifestyle between fights, despite endless advice from trainers, fighters, the media, his fanbase.....

Andrew Golota
I am one of those that was very keen on Golota. However he quickly let me down. When the goping got tough, Golota got Dirty.
He was his own worst enemy in cases.
He could have been a heavyweight Arturo had he battled it out cleanly; a hero regardless of results, but he spoiled his chances of marketability and profit through the use of foul and sometimes dangerous tactics...

Feel free to add more....


Honourable mentions; (:))

Oliver McCall
Mike Tyson
Kermit Cintron

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GAVIN REES .

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

Riddick Bowe, for sure. He had all the tools and skills to be an ATG.

On some level, James Toney was limited by his mentality. As great as his career was, if he didn't struggle so much with food and at times focus he could have been even better. He never should have lost to Thazdi or Griffin. For that matter, he would have never lost to Sam Peter if he was in proper shape.

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Good ones.Bowe had all of the physical tools but had the fire in the belly of a sloth.Once he hit it big and statrted talking about putting a kitchen in his bedroom,that was ballgame lol.

Toney could be lazy.A master of timing out rounds and taking the foot of the pedal in gaps.I think he through in the mental towel going into the Jones fight.Jones was in his head,turned the tables on him.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

Riddick Bowe, for sure. He had all the tools and skills to be an ATG.

On some level, James Toney was limited by his mentality. As great as his career was, if he didn't struggle so much with food and at times focus he could have been even better. He never should have lost to Thazdi or Griffin. For that matter, he would have never lost to Sam Peter if he was in proper shape.

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I don't think James Toney lost to Montel Griffin, the first fight was a draw James Toney done no worse than that. And James Toney for 100 percent won the rematch, he was definately on the wrong end of a bad decision in the rematch.

Kid Thunder......Well actually he's limited in all aspects but mentality is definately one.

Clottey, Toney, Guzman. A guy like Viloria's maybe not a great technical boxer but he's a poster boy for mentality problems, at least until Solis.

I always thought Judah's unreached potential was a bit overdone. His skills and technical ability were always overrated IMO. He was never nearly as talented and skilled as say a Guzman.

Mike Tyson for sure is a very good example.

Felix Trinidad was to me never the same after Bhop.

Sam Peter will probably never recover from Vitali.

Roy Jones 2nd half of career is running on fumes and bad career choices.

Edison Miranda

Ike Ibeabuchi

Hi my friend Donny , good to see you , i hopes everything is well with you and your family too :) ..............

Well what about Hazem Hamed when was defeated by Marcos Antonio Barrera , he never returned back to fight , probably MAB frustrated him in some way i guess..................;D

I really liked that fight and i enjoyed...............;D

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Originally Posted by Macho

Hi my friend Donny , good to see you , i hopes everything is well with you and your family too :) ..............

Well what about Hazem Hamed when was defeated by Marcos Antonio Barrera , he never returned back to fight , probably MAB frustrated him in some way i guess..................;D

I really liked that fight and i enjoyed...............;D

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Macho!
Great to see you my friend!
Everything is good here, how are you?


Yeah Naseem Hamed certainly is one, once he lost his aura of invincibility I think it shattered his own drive and self belief.

Truely great to see you again mi pana.

Buster Douglas is an extreme case, James Tillis, Dominick Guinn to name a few heavyweights...ODLH at times was too.

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

Joshua Clottey?? not a finisher...

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To a larger degree Quartey, he was similar to Clottey, but he had that great jab and power.
Here are guys for me

Potentially Gamboa: IMO a better athletic version of Meldrick Taylor, but his cockiness could be the death of him. He does things so effortlessly sometimes, and other times he gets caught.
Andre Berto: another top tier athlete who is tough, can box, and he wants to be exciting, but I think he has a hard time trying to integrate excitement and boxing and he leaves himself wide open for counter punches.
Roy Jones Jr: not because of anything he did in the ring, but because of what fights didn't end up getting made, I know they weren't 100% his fault, but as PAcquiao is showing the big fights can be made if you are really eager to fight guys. I think his fear of a serious injury led him away from the biggest fights in his prime.
Ali and Lennox Lewis: didn't train as hard as they could have for many of their fights.
Wilfredo Benitez: he trained like 2 weeks in total for both the HEarns and Leonard fight, I am not sure if he wanted an excuse or honestly didn't care, but I think he never gave his best effort leading up to the fight.
Mike Tyson:obvious reasons
Zab Judah: obvious reasons
Juan Guzman: poor manager? Lost his opportunity by not making weight for a very important fight because he stayed at 130 way too long.
Michael Nunn and Whiatker: could have had longer careers had they kept clean.

Great thread subject!! Maybe Berto fits the bill. He has a low ring IQ in my view.

Michael Grant

Michael Moorer

Francisco Bojado

Hector Camacho Junior

What about a Holyfield in a way? Was much more sound technically and top notch skill set but often his heart out willed his mind and opted to slug it out.In an odd way?

Frankie Randall...very much able in skillset but...

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Macho

Hi my friend Donny , good to see you , i hopes everything is well with you and your family too :) ..............

Well what about Hazem Hamed when was defeated by Marcos Antonio Barrera , he never returned back to fight , probably MAB frustrated him in some way i guess..................;D

I really liked that fight and i enjoyed...............;D

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Macho!
Great to see you my friend!
Everything is good here, how are you?


Yeah Naseem Hamed certainly is one, once he lost his aura of invincibility I think it shattered his own drive and self belief.

Truely great to see you again mi pana.

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Same happened i the same weight class to Koko from Hungary undefeated for 20 plus then ko'ed lost his world title and never even tried again once.

Tua wasnt great technically as such but always dissapointed me, recon he could of been so much more if he hadn't got so lazy with his training.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Macho

Hi my friend Donny , good to see you , i hopes everything is well with you and your family too :) ..............

Well what about Hazem Hamed when was defeated by Marcos Antonio Barrera , he never returned back to fight , probably MAB frustrated him in some way i guess..................;D

I really liked that fight and i enjoyed...............;D

---

Macho!
Great to see you my friend!
Everything is good here, how are you?


Yeah Naseem Hamed certainly is one, once he lost his aura of invincibility I think it shattered his own drive and self belief.

Truely great to see you again mi pana.

---

Same happened i the same weight class to Koko from Hungary undefeated for 20 plus then ko'ed lost his world title and never even tried again once.

Tua wasnt great technically as such but always dissapointed me, recon he could of been so much more if he hadn't got so lazy with his training.

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Yeah Tua regretted that himself...
Shame really.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Macho

Hi my friend Donny , good to see you , i hopes everything is well with you and your family too :) ..............

Well what about Hazem Hamed when was defeated by Marcos Antonio Barrera , he never returned back to fight , probably MAB frustrated him in some way i guess..................;D

I really liked that fight and i enjoyed...............;D

---

Macho!
Great to see you my friend!
Everything is good here, how are you?


Yeah Naseem Hamed certainly is one, once he lost his aura of invincibility I think it shattered his own drive and self belief.

Truely great to see you again mi pana.

---

Same happened i the same weight class to Koko from Hungary undefeated for 20 plus then ko'ed lost his world title and never even tried again once.

Tua wasnt great technically as such but always dissapointed me, recon he could of been so much more if he hadn't got so lazy with his training.

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Tua is a good 1 the Lennox loss screwed him up pretty badly.

Actually the thread title is tailor made for A Mundine.

I didn't read all the posts but Andrew Golota should be the posterboy of this thread

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

Joshua Clottey?? not a finisher...

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To a larger degree Quartey, he was similar to Clottey, but he had that great jab and power.
Here are guys for me

Potentially Gamboa: IMO a better athletic version of Meldrick Taylor, but his cockiness could be the death of him. He does things so effortlessly sometimes, and other times he gets caught.
Andre Berto: another top tier athlete who is tough, can box, and he wants to be exciting, but I think he has a hard time trying to integrate excitement and boxing and he leaves himself wide open for counter punches.
Roy Jones Jr: not because of anything he did in the ring, but because of what fights didn't end up getting made, I know they weren't 100% his fault, but as PAcquiao is showing the big fights can be made if you are really eager to fight guys. I think his fear of a serious injury led him away from the biggest fights in his prime.
Ali and Lennox Lewis: didn't train as hard as they could have for many of their fights.
Wilfredo Benitez: he trained like 2 weeks in total for both the HEarns and Leonard fight, I am not sure if he wanted an excuse or honestly didn't care, but I think he never gave his best effort leading up to the fight.
Mike Tyson:obvious reasons
Zab Judah: obvious reasons
Juan Guzman: poor manager? Lost his opportunity by not making weight for a very important fight because he stayed at 130 way too long.
Michael Nunn and Whiatker: could have had longer careers had they kept clean.

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A few ATG fighters have been mentioned Roy, Tyson, Holyfield and I cannot agree with this out of thousands of fighters that exist in the world to become undisputed or P4P no way did you underachieve.

jhonny tapia all the promblems he had outside of the ring

Dominick Guinn

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Ricky Hatton
The most frustrating fighter of the past decade for me. Squandered raw talent, physicality and a hell of a lot of work with his lifestyle between fights, despite endless advice from trainers, fighters, the media, his fanbase.....

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Ricky Hatton is not a great technical boxer. He's a guy with above average speed, but not a ton of skill, who made the most with what he had. If Ricky Hatton had been born in say... Ghana, and didn't have the big marketable fanbase that he got in the UK, he never would have been considered an elite fighter at any point in his career.

(On this board, I'm sure this post is going to go over about as well as a fart at church).

Ike has he been mentioned? Ibeabuchi not Quartey, that's one that sticks out. A good solid fighter who had a legit two hand attack which is more then you can say for a lot of one dimensional heavyweights of today.

I don't really agree with the Taylor one, moreover I don't agree with the notion that he should have done something else in the 12th round. I think he fought a GREAT fight, a fight that would have propelled him to superstardom and ATG status if he won and that's because of the way he fought the first 11 rounds. Everyone knew Taylor had the ability to outbox Chavez, the statement was made when he outfought Chavez on the inside. And that's how he won all those rounds that gave him that perceived lead (I don't remember how the cards shook out.) Hindsight is 20/20, Taylor could have bounced around, not given Chavez a target and then leave it in the hands of judges who you never know what you are getting in their cards. Plus, he could have knocked Chavez out. With the accumalation of punches you could see that was a possibility as early as the 8th round. I find it more admirable then I do boneheaded. The ending to that fight and to Meldrick Taylor's career as a whole is tragic but I don't think he was limited in the way Golota, Bowe, Judah or Tyson are, by their own mentality. The Philly fighter mentality he always gets branded with isn't neccasarily a bad thing, we would have loved him for it just like everyone loved Holyfield at that time for being so willing to fight.

That's my stance on Taylor.

Another Taylor fits this bill, Jermain Taylor who had his career rolling with two wins over Hopkins and a draw with Wright who were concievably the two toughest possible fights for him to ever take and he emerged through them with his title. But it just seems like they both made him think to much in the ring because like OumaFan pointed out in the Froch fight, he fights with so much nervous energy it's visible. He's never settled, he always looks ancy and never smooth. He fought really calm against Lacy only getting into trouble once otherwise fighting smart with great activity, looked good but not against Froch not even in the first 11 rounds did he look all that great.

De La Hoya comes to mind just because of how many times he simply made the wrong tactical decision in a fight which eventually cost him or should have cost him on numerous occasions.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Ricky Hatton
The most frustrating fighter of the past decade for me. Squandered raw talent, physicality and a hell of a lot of work with his lifestyle between fights, despite endless advice from trainers, fighters, the media, his fanbase.....

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Ricky Hatton is not a great technical boxer. He's a guy with above average speed, but not a ton of skill, who made the most with what he had. If Ricky Hatton had been born in say... Ghana, and didn't have the big marketable fanbase that he got in the UK, he never would have been considered an elite fighter at any point in his career.

(On this board, I'm sure this post is going to go over about as well as a fart at church).

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Pew.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Clottey, Toney, Guzman. A guy like Viloria's maybe not a great technical boxer but he's a poster boy for mentality problems, at least until Solis.

I always thought Judah's unreached potential was a bit overdone. His skills and technical ability were always overrated IMO. He was never nearly as talented and skilled as say a Guzman.

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yep. viloria's recent trainer roberto garcia was asked, prior to his fight with solis, what will they improve in preparation for their fight with solis? he said nothing. in fact he said viloria got all the tools to be world champ again and is impressed by his boxing skills. what viloria lacks, he said, was motivation and focus. that means there's a lot of things going on to his head that's why he lost all those title fights from sosa and romero. it turns out garcia was right: it's all about the "ghost" in the head.