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Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
I've been very vocal in criticising pac for what I feel is a blatant attempt to weight drain bigger fighters to take their edge off.
It's my opinion that they are too big for him (which is nothing to be ashamed of...), but unfortunately for Pac 147 is were the money lies and money is all that Pac is after now, he has done literally everything a fighter could do just about.
If it was about the achievement or respect then he would be moving up in weight properly, not chasing chasing the marquee names.
So how do you make money with these guys without getting out muscled? ??? I think I've made my opinions on that clear over the last week or two.
I'm sure plenty of people can and will disagree with this but there is one thing I keep on hearing from people who clearly have very little knowledge of human physiology and a boxer's weight making process - "What difference will a pound or two make?".
A few posters including myself have challenged those 'informed opinions' and the likes of Bilbo and other pac fans have tried to react as if disagreeing is crazy. Being just some kid who posts on a message board I don't expect what I say to have a lot of weight... I can tell you that I've studied this or that... but so can somebody like "trainer Monkey".
When it comes straight out of Shane Mosley's mouth (a guy who will know more about training/boxing than me and anybody who would care to debate this with me combined) then maybe you should pay attention?
Quote:
In my case, that’s a lot of weight to lose,” he said. “I previously fought at 154. Coming down to 147 can be a task. Then coming down even further, that is a real task. Even one pound makes a big difference.”
Mosley: Making catch weight to fight Pacquiao would take work
(he is also quoted in boxing Monthly as saying that he knows Roach is trying to weaken him bit he wants to make it happen)
So although Mosley would be determined to make it happen, he (a fighter who knows a thing or two about managing weight) knows how critical even a pound can be. Something to bear in mind the next time you ponder why they are happy to talk about fighting Oscar at 147 but not even 145 for Shane, who is smaller than Oscar... *hint, it has something to do with a smaller being able to go as low as a bigger man, but without getting drained, Roach sure knows how to pick them*
Like I've said I'm sure we can debate away about who deserves this weight or that weight, how much respect they are due... who's chasing who and who's holding the cards... whether fighters deserve it for coming in drained or what ever.
(for the record I feel that although I like Pacman he's only calling out the guys from 147 because they are the biggest names right now, he's asking for catch-weights because he knows they're too big... but he wants the PPV draw of fighting them before he retires)
One thing that I feel needs to be acknowledged though is that the majority of these guys are already down to the wire in terms of weight and even a pound or two can mess them up big time.
When Mosley is saying it regarding himself and Nazeem Richardson is saying it regarding Cotto surely it must be pretty hard for all but the elite trainers who (aren't) posting here to disagree?
I honestly feel that Pac's only intention of fighting these guys at catchweights is to get the marquee name whilst not being purely overpowered by them.
Right now Pac's fans are saying it's to make a fair fight bla bla bla but you know if he lost they'd be saying that the other guy was too big and that it wasn't a fair fight etc.
Saying that...
If a Cotto or a Mosely come and fight him at a catchweight and don't look drained like Oscar did and Pac puts on a good show then I'll give him his due... 100%. It may or may not end up that way I just feel like that is what his intention is.
I'm sure everything I'm saying regarding Pac's intentions and due credit can be disputed, it's my opinon and nothing more. I just think that the people saying "It's only a pound or two" deserve a good slap.
(and I appologise because I know this has been done to death, just found this article and thought I'd share it)
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
For me, its a bigger sacrifice to have to loose the extra 3 pounds than to gain them.
As it has been pointed out, the physical drain is the real sticking point for me.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Money is root of all evil. Cotto or any natural welter does'nt have to fight Pac if they feel they're being lured to a huge disadvantage.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
It's all about the money for Pac at this point, the same also applies to Floyd. Both of them have proven themselves, now they want to get paid. That's how capitalism works son.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ASIAN SENSATION
Money is root of all evil. Cotto or any natural welter does'nt have to fight Pac if they feel they're being lured to a huge disadvantage.
Yes mate, I've said that that can and will be debated until the cows come home.
I imagine it's quite hard not to get lured in by roach when they have a giant golden carrot on a stick.
I just think that the 'what difference can/does/will a pound or two make' brigade need to either get clued up or jump off of a bridge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
It's all about the money for Pac at this point, the same also applies to Floyd. Both of them have proven themselves, now they want to get paid. That's how capitalism works son.
Kind of my point/opinion on Pac's current actions... ;) Or was that aimed at "Asian Sensation" ;)
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
I've been very vocal in criticising pac for what I feel is a blatant attempt to weight drain bigger fighters to take their edge off.
It's my opinion that they are too big for him (which is nothing to be ashamed of...), but unfortunately for Pac 147 is were the money lies and money is all that Pac is after now, he has done literally everything a fighter could do just about.
If it was about the achievement or respect then he would be moving up in weight properly, not chasing chasing the marquee names.
So how do you make money with these guys without getting out muscled? ??? I think I've made my opinions on that clear over the last week or two.
I'm sure plenty of people can and will disagree with this but there is one thing I keep on hearing from people who clearly have very little knowledge of human physiology and a boxer's weight making process - "What difference will a pound or two make?".
A few posters including myself have challenged those 'informed opinions' and the likes of Bilbo and other pac fans have tried to react as if disagreeing is crazy. Being just some kid who posts on a message board I don't expect what I say to have a lot of weight... I can tell you that I've studied this or that... but so can somebody like "trainer Monkey".
When it comes straight out of Shane Mosley's mouth (a guy who will know more about training/boxing than me and anybody who would care to debate this with me combined) then maybe you should pay attention?
Quote:
In my case, that’s a lot of weight to lose,” he said. “I previously fought at 154. Coming down to 147 can be a task. Then coming down even further, that is a real task. Even one pound makes a big difference.”
Mosley: Making catch weight to fight Pacquiao would take work
(he is also quoted in boxing Monthly as saying that he knows Roach is trying to weaken him bit he wants to make it happen)
So although Mosley would be determined to make it happen, he (a fighter who knows a thing or two about managing weight) knows how critical even a pound can be. Something to bear in mind the next time you ponder why they are happy to talk about fighting Oscar at 147 but not even 145 for Shane, who is smaller than Oscar... *hint, it has something to do with a smaller being able to go as low as a bigger man, but without getting drained, Roach sure knows how to pick them*
Like I've said I'm sure we can debate away about who deserves this weight or that weight, how much respect they are due... who's chasing who and who's holding the cards... whether fighters deserve it for coming in drained or what ever.
(for the record I feel that although I like Pacman he's only calling out the guys from 147 because they are the biggest names right now, he's asking for catch-weights because he knows they're too big... but he wants the PPV draw of fighting them before he retires)
One thing that I feel needs to be acknowledged though is that the majority of these guys are already down to the wire in terms of weight and even a pound or two can mess them up big time.
When Mosley is saying it regarding himself and Nazeem Richardson is saying it regarding Cotto surely it must be pretty hard for all but the elite trainers who (aren't) posting here to disagree?
I honestly feel that Pac's only intention of fighting these guys at catchweights is to get the marquee name whilst not being purely overpowered by them.
Right now Pac's fans are saying it's to make a fair fight bla bla bla but you know if he lost they'd be saying that the other guy was too big and that it wasn't a fair fight etc.
Saying that...
If a Cotto or a Mosely come and fight him at a catchweight and don't look drained like Oscar did and Pac puts on a good show then I'll give him his due... 100%. It may or may not end up that way I just feel like that is what his
intention is.
I'm sure everything I'm saying regarding Pac's intentions and due credit
can be disputed, it's my opinon and nothing more. I just think that the people saying "It's only a pound or two" deserve a good slap.
(and I appologise because I know this has been done to death, just found this article and thought I'd share it)
You are talking about Mosely and in his case I agree, in his late thirties and fighting at 154 not long ago going under 147 would be too much of a risk.
But this is NOT the same with Cotto. Only a couple years ago he was world champion at 140 lbs. He weighed in against Clottey at 146 even.
Him dropping another pound or two is NOT a big deal. He's NOT a big welterweight, he's only 5 ft 7 and guys like Cintron, Williams, Margarito etc are huge compared to him.
NONE of the weight draining issues apply to Cotto coming down to 145 lbs to fight Pacquaio.
He's young, only in his twenties, was fighting at 140 not long ago and would have NO EXCUSE if he couldn't make 145 lbs giving that it is only one single pound less than he weighed in against Clottey.
This whole debate has been blown so far out of proportion its unbelievable. You guys are making as if Cotto walks around at 185 and his life would be at risk if he drops one pound from his current fighting weight of 146 lbs.
Just because Oscar couldn't make a fight of it weighing in at 142 lbs, a drop of 12 lbs in his late thirties at the end of his career isn't remotely the same as Cotto weighing in at ONE FREAKING POUND LESS.
When Hopkins knocked out Oscar weighing in at 158 lbs I don't rememeber an outcry about Oscar fighting a shell of a fighter who was weight drained and couldn't compete at such a low weight. No it was the reverse, Hopkins was seen as beating up on a smaller man.
It's all about hindsight. All of you 'knew' that Pacquaio fighting Oscar at 147 was a complete mismatch and that Manny was going to get slaughtered, just a sacrificial cash cow for Oscar to burn at his alter to Mammon and then when Oscar got KTFO you all 'knew' that it was because Manny had forced Oscar in his advancing years to drain his body to near death and Manny is just now a fighter who can only win unfairly.
You are all idiots, every fight is different, every opponent is different. Cotto was an undefeated world champion at 140 lbs only two years ago. He doesn't weigh in at the full 147 limit at welterweight anyway, him dropping another lb is not a big deal at all, but your Manny hating just blinds you to this obvious fact.
And I like how I get called a Pacquaio fanboy, I'm not even a big fan, I just think the criticism of him is frankly ludicrous.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
I've been very vocal in criticising pac for what I feel is a blatant attempt to weight drain bigger fighters to take their edge off.
It's my opinion that they are too big for him (which is nothing to be ashamed of...), but unfortunately for Pac 147 is were the money lies and money is all that Pac is after now, he has done literally everything a fighter could do just about.
If it was about the achievement or respect then he would be moving up in weight properly, not chasing chasing the marquee names.
So how do you make money with these guys without getting out muscled? ??? I think I've made my opinions on that clear over the last week or two.
I'm sure plenty of people can and will disagree with this but there is one thing I keep on hearing from people who clearly have very little knowledge of human physiology and a boxer's weight making process - "What difference will a pound or two make?".
A few posters including myself have challenged those 'informed opinions' and the likes of Bilbo and other pac fans have tried to react as if disagreeing is crazy. Being just some kid who posts on a message board I don't expect what I say to have a lot of weight... I can tell you that I've studied this or that... but so can somebody like "trainer Monkey".
When it comes straight out of Shane Mosley's mouth (a guy who will know more about training/boxing than me and anybody who would care to debate this with me combined) then maybe you should pay attention?
Quote:
In my case, that’s a lot of weight to lose,” he said. “I previously fought at 154. Coming down to 147 can be a task. Then coming down even further, that is a real task. Even one pound makes a big difference.”
Mosley: Making catch weight to fight Pacquiao would take work
(he is also quoted in boxing Monthly as saying that he knows Roach is trying to weaken him bit he wants to make it happen)
So although Mosley would be determined to make it happen, he (a fighter who knows a thing or two about managing weight) knows how critical even a pound can be. Something to bear in mind the next time you ponder why they are happy to talk about fighting Oscar at 147 but not even 145 for Shane, who is smaller than Oscar... *hint, it has something to do with a smaller being able to go as low as a bigger man, but without getting drained, Roach sure knows how to pick them*
Like I've said I'm sure we can debate away about who deserves this weight or that weight, how much respect they are due... who's chasing who and who's holding the cards... whether fighters deserve it for coming in drained or what ever.
(for the record I feel that although I like Pacman he's only calling out the guys from 147 because they are the biggest names right now, he's asking for catch-weights because he knows they're too big... but he wants the PPV draw of fighting them before he retires)
One thing that I feel needs to be acknowledged though is that the majority of these guys are already down to the wire in terms of weight and even a pound or two can mess them up big time.
When Mosley is saying it regarding himself and Nazeem Richardson is saying it regarding Cotto surely it must be pretty hard for all but the elite trainers who (aren't) posting here to disagree?
I honestly feel that Pac's only intention of fighting these guys at catchweights is to get the marquee name whilst not being purely overpowered by them.
Right now Pac's fans are saying it's to make a fair fight bla bla bla but you know if he lost they'd be saying that the other guy was too big and that it wasn't a fair fight etc.
Saying that...
If a Cotto or a Mosely come and fight him at a catchweight and don't look drained like Oscar did and Pac puts on a good show then I'll give him his due... 100%. It may or may not end up that way I just feel like that is what his
intention is.
I'm sure everything I'm saying regarding Pac's intentions and due credit
can be disputed, it's my opinon and nothing more. I just think that the people saying "It's only a pound or two" deserve a good slap.
(and I appologise because I know this has been done to death, just found this article and thought I'd share it)
You are talking about Mosely and in his case I agree, in his late thirties and fighting at 154 not long ago going under 147 would be too much of a risk.
But this is NOT the same with Cotto. Only a couple years ago he was world champion at 140 lbs. He weighed in against Clottey at 146 even.
Him dropping another pound or two is NOT a big deal. He's NOT a big welterweight, he's only 5 ft 7 and guys like Cintron, Williams, Margarito etc are huge compared to him.
NONE of the weight draining issues apply to Cotto coming down to 145 lbs to fight Pacquaio.
He's young, only in his twenties, was fighting at 140 not long ago and would have NO EXCUSE if he couldn't make 145 lbs giving that it is only one single pound less than he weighed in against Clottey.
well but Pacquiao's not only asking for 145 anymore, he's asking for it to be at 143, and 3 lbs even at 28 is still a hard task to complete
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
I'm not going to go into the general argument again as its been done to death but 143 was just a report coming out of the camp, that could easily be a negotiating ploy, we'll see how it comes off. If Manny insists on making it 143 then he's pushing it too far and Cotto should turn it down. But Bilbo is right, there's always context, its one thing to ask Paul Williams or Antonio Margarito to come down to 145 and its another to ask Cotto. Shane being somewhere in between probably.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
I also like how your source for this article was Shane Mosely, who proved beyond doubt it WAS possible to move down not a couple pounds but SEVEN in his late thirties and still become the welterweight king.
Anyway by your logic Cotto only beat Mosely because it was at 'catchweight'.
This is what makes me laugh. Oscar drops to 147 to fight Manny coming up from 135 and it's a 'catchweight' fight.
Mosely also drops to 147, just like Oscar, with the same number fights, same age, same battle scars, and fights Cotto and NOBODY talks about Mosely giving up weight at all. It's ok, because he looked good.
If Oscar fucked up his training and couldn't make the drop shame on Oscar.
It has NO bearing on a potential Pacquaio vs Cotto fight.
Manny vs Cotto is one of the best possible fights that can be made in all of boxing right now, yet you all continue to try and put obstacle in the way of it.
Look, they are both elite world class p4p fighters, yet Cotto is much bigger. Therefore under normal circumstances we don't get a fight. If a catchweight allows us to witness this great boxing event I'm all for it.
Would you scoff also at the idea of a Mayweather vs Paul Williams fight at 157 lbs? Would you moan about Floyd dragging Paul down 3 lbs from 160?
Of course not (well maybe you would) it would be a great fight and Floyd would be showing some serious balls to move up and fight the much bigger man.
You all have one rule for Manny and another for everybody else.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
I'm not a big Pacman fan, but the latest excuse why Pacman beat his latest foe was that he fought a fight while weight draining Ricky hatton. Because of Ricky Hatton's life style and ballooning up in weight it was an unfair even if it was at 140. :11fb8:
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Of course it's possible bilbo...
he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.
When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.
You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...
Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.
Roach isn't stupid.
Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.
I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Of course it's possible bilbo...
he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.
When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.
You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...
Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.
Roach isn't stupid.
Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.
I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.
This has a massively simple answer: because he can.
Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.
In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.
And by the way I'm not even broaching the subject of if its right or not. You can go all into the theory that he may want Cotto to drop farther because it will affect him more because Oscar was already cutting to make 147 whereas Cotto isn't but in the end its a bit irrelevant because Oscar would have chuckled if Pac had said 143 or nothing.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
and of course he's all about names and money now. I don't dispute that at all, there comes a point in most elite guys careers when they're just not going to fight Timothy Bradley anymore, no offense to him. How much legacy plays into it is a mystery. I'm sure he's worried about his legacy but I tend to think for most guy's its money first.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Of course it's possible bilbo...
he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.
When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.
You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...
Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.
Roach isn't stupid.
Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.
I'm not saying he desrves absolutly no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his wants would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift?
When Mosely is talking about a pound being a pound he's coming from the perspective of already having lost seven. He was 154, then dropped seven pounds, now every further pound is significant.
Cotto hasn't dropped anything yet. He weighed in at 146 lbs in his last fight, so if it's an agreed weight of 145, or even 144 it's not that big a deal.
Certainly not for an elite athlete with a professional training team around him. If it's possible for Manny to work through 8 weight classes it should be possible for Cotto to drop a couple pounds to fight 4 or 5 lbs heavier than where he was at a couple years ago.
You talk about Pacquiao being whiter than white, I'd say he's the most maligned fighter in the sport.
So few people are willing to give him the full credit for what he has done and those that do are labelled fanboys.
Has there even been a single other fighter in history who has won world titles at flyweight and welterweight?
If not then why begrudge Manny trying to get Cotto to drop a couple pounds to give him a fighting chance to achieve what would be as far I can tell a truly unique acomplishment in the history of boxing, I certainly know of no other flyweight to welterweight world champs.
Manny beating Cotto at 145 is more impressive to me than Jones Jr beating Joh Ruiz at heavyweight. Ruiz didn't have to cut weight, but Jones cherry picked the weakest belt holder in recent years, a guy who he completely and hopelessly outclassed in talent, speed and skill.
Wouldn't have been more impressive had not Roy Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis but with the stipulation that Lewis weigh in say 8 lbs lighter than normal, so a weight limit of say 230 lbs?
Hell yeah, that would have been MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more impressive because Lewis was an ELITE fighter.
Cotto is an ELITE fighter, he's not just a paper champion. Manny isn't just moving up to fight a belt holder, he wants to fight the best that division has to offer.
Can you seriously imagine this criticism being labelled against ANY other fighter?
If Floyd agreed to fight Kelly Pavlik at 158 you wouldn't think that was a good fight, you wouldn't think Floyd was brave?
If Andre Ward decided to fight David Haye at 215 lbs you wouldn't be impressed with him?
How about if Joesph Agbeko followed up his win over Darchinyan by fighting Juan Manuel Marquez at a catchweight between superfeather and lightweight?
What Manny has achieved is amazing, and what he is trying to achieve still is also amazing.
You can't see the wood for the trees, you get so hung up on the incorrectness of catchweights you miss the fact that Manny is making boxing history, he's the most exciting fighter in the world, and this a poor kid from the Phillipines who used to have to use his hands to wipe his ass after a shit.
Just take your blinkers off for a second and enjoy what we have, a truly fantastic, exciting and humble fighter tearing through guys several weight classes above him and giving us boxing fans some truly memorable all time great performances.
When he's retired, everyone will be saying how great he was, so why not start now?
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
and of course he's all about names and money now. I don't dispute that at all, there comes a point in most elite guys careers when they're just not going to fight Timothy Bradley anymore, no offense to him. How much legacy plays into it is a mystery. I'm sure he's worried about his legacy but I tend to think for most guy's its money first.
Exactly and this is a point I made before. When you've already torn through several weight classes and won several world titles, you are no longer interested in weight classes and belts.
You want the best opposition, other elite champions who also have won multiple world titles and belts. If they happen to be in different weight classes then catchweight fights can bridge that gap.
I'm all for it, from now on I (and I'm sure Manny) don't care if he wins any more belts its all about beating the other superstars of the sport, making a fortune and making his name in boxing history.
The FIGHTERS are what make boxing, NOT the weight classes and the belts.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Great post Bilbo. Great posts. Truly, what a remarkable Pac is having.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.
Although ultimtely I think the belt is irelevent anyway I still disagree with your perspective.
You do realise the weight limits in boxing are the maximum weights right, i.e a fighter cannot weigh MORE than 147 if he wants to fight for the title.
But what about the minimum weight? Do you even know what the minimum weight limit is to fight for a 147 lb title? Is there even a minimum weight limit?
As I understand it any weight above the 140 lb weight limit is accetable, and so if a fighter chose to weigh in at 143 lb for a 147 lb fight he is free to do so, it is his RIGHT.
So if Cotto and Manny agree to weigh 145 and the minium weight limit for the welterweight title fight to be on the line is 140 then how is is not a title fight?
Should Cotto have lost his title to Clottey at the weigh in because he didn't make 147 and weighed in a pound less? Had he weighed in at 145 against Clottey should the title have been vacated?
No of course not, it's an absurd idea, Cotto can choose to weigh in at what he likes providing he weighs between the minimum and maximum weight limits for that weight class, as can Manny.
So it's still a world title fight, and a damn good one.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.
Although ultimtely I think the belt is irelevent anyway I still disagree with your perspective.
You do realise the weight limits in boxing are the maximum weights right, i.e a fighter cannot weigh MORE than 147 if he wants to fight for the title.
But what about the minimum weight? Do you even know what the minimum weight limit is to fight for a 147 lb title? Is there even a minimum weight limit?
As I understand it any weight above the 140 lb weight limit is accetable, and so if a fighter chose to weigh in at 143 lb for a 147 lb fight he is free to do so, it is his RIGHT.
So if Cotto and Manny agree to weigh 145 and the minium weight limit for the welterweight title fight to be on the line is 140 then how is is not a title fight?
Should Cotto have lost his title to Clottey at the weigh in because he didn't make 147 and weighed in a pound less? Had he weighed in at 145 against Clottey should the title have been vacated?
No of course not, it's an absurd idea,
Cotto can choose to weigh in at what he likes providing he weighs between the minimum and maximum weight limits for that weight class, as can Manny.
So it's still a world title fight, and a damn good one.
I never suggested a fighter had to weigh in at a particular weight, but the weight divisions should not have limitations put on them. Cotto can weigh in at 145, however he should have the option of weighing as much as that weight division allows. That bolded sentence illustrates my point. If Cotto weighs in at 145 fine, however, there shouldn't be some limitation that he cannot weight more than that. If a pound or 2 is no big deal than why should it matter?
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Of course it's possible bilbo...
he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.
When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.
You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...
Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.
Roach isn't stupid.
Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.
I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.
This has a massively simple answer: because he can.
Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.
In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.
That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.
And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.
The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.
My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.
I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Pacquiao-Cotto might not happen afterall. Latest word in pacland is team pac are now eyeing Mosley.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Of course it's possible bilbo...
he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.
When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.
You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...
Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.
Roach isn't stupid.
Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.
I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.
This has a massively simple answer: because he can.
Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.
In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.
That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.
And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.
The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra
could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.
My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.
I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.
So doesn't this one pound is significant work both ways? Why should Manny keep moving up and fighting the best guys in their weight class with them having all the advantage?
Hasn't he already moved up like 20 lbs? If a single pound counts so much and Manny has moved through 8 weight classes then cut him some slack.
The point you guys are missing is this.
What Manny is attempting to acomplish has NEVER EVER been acomplished before.
NO fighter EVER has EVER moved through 8 weight classes and then fought and defeated the BEST opponent in that weight class.
De La Hoya never managed it, he moved through less weight classes and his big fight against Hopkins (also forcing Hop to fight at catchweight he got knocked out).
Duran, Leonard, Hearns never did it, Roy Jones Jr never did (he fought a terrible belt holder not even close to the best at heavyweight).
If Manny beats Cotto or Mosely it is one hell of a feat, considering he's a guy who was once at flyweight. Whether Cotto weighs in at 147 lbs or 145 lbs is simply not the issue.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
One point, Floyd did go up a division to fight the guy considered the best ODLH & got little credit for it from many, rather than being considered brave. Personally I have no problem with 145, I just don't think it should be for a title as for me it makes the alphabets even more of a joke than they already are. 2 extra pounds probably wouldn't be that bad for Cotto, I think he could do it, but 143 I think would be a big problem for him. I don't blame Manny for choosing how it goes though, the guys at the top of the sport have earnt that right the hard way. Also IMO I think Cotto is made for him & is actually an easier ask for Manny than either Mosley or Berto, despite the fact Cotto is better than Berto, & I expect Pacquiao to take a comfortable decision.
Although ultimtely I think the belt is irelevent anyway I still disagree with your perspective.
You do realise the weight limits in boxing are the maximum weights right, i.e a fighter cannot weigh MORE than 147 if he wants to fight for the title.
But what about the minimum weight? Do you even know what the minimum weight limit is to fight for a 147 lb title? Is there even a minimum weight limit?
As I understand it any weight above the 140 lb weight limit is accetable, and so if a fighter chose to weigh in at 143 lb for a 147 lb fight he is free to do so, it is his RIGHT.
So if Cotto and Manny agree to weigh 145 and the minium weight limit for the welterweight title fight to be on the line is 140 then how is is not a title fight?
Should Cotto have lost his title to Clottey at the weigh in because he didn't make 147 and weighed in a pound less? Had he weighed in at 145 against Clottey should the title have been vacated?
No of course not, it's an absurd idea,
Cotto can choose to weigh in at what he likes providing he weighs between the minimum and maximum weight limits for that weight class, as can Manny.
So it's still a world title fight, and a damn good one.
It's a good argument Bilbo. But why a catchweight? You yourself said 140-147 is the limit of the WW division, and Cotto can choose to weigh whatever he desires within the minimum and maximum of that weight class. He is required to weigh in at 147, but if he is more comfortable coming in at 145-146 then no penalty; as there shouldn't be because obviously he has 7 pounds to play with in his division to find his best weight. But he shouldn't be asked to compromise in a division where he has shown several times he likes coming in at 147{not 145 or 143} and adding a couple before the fight. That's why there is the gap in weight classes, so a fighter can have some liberty to make the best comfortable weight for him in that class; and also not have 200 divisions floating around:p As long as Cotto makes the minimum requirements of the sanctioning bodies then another fighter trying to make a dent in that division has no right to ask for more concessions. He wants the bragging rights, but doesn't want to play by the rules, and wants to dictate how a guy in a heavier class should concede to his demands. Might as well throw all the weight classes out and have a free for all like old UFC days.
140-147.... Pac is basically saying he can make the WW limits by asking for 145; so that's that IMO. STFU about making Cotto come down; you're in that divisions weight limits, you play by the rules. If Pac wants and can make 145 or even 143 then that's the weight he should come in at; a weight right in the middle of that weight class. Why the stipulation then? To stretch Cotto out is why, if possible; and to me that doesn't make it a great fight. It's underhanded to me. To me; especially if it's only about $$$; then Pac shouldn't even care and just say alright; I'll come in at 143-45 and Cotto his 147 and we'll fight. It's not only about $$$; Pac wants to go down and have people say he was one of the greatest ever, and "look I went from Flea-weight to Welter Weight" and am one of the best ever.
I just don't like it Bilbo. Does Pac have a right to ask? I guess he does; no harm in asking, especially with all that's on the line. I just think it's trying to cheat in a more dignified sounding way. With that said; I'd love to see the fight. And I thought it was funny Oscar took the bait and he got mauled. If Cotto takes it and concedes to 145 than that's on him. I think he'll have hell with Pac at 147 anyways. 2 pounds is alot even if it doesn't drain him in some way; that's 2 pounds less flesh to absorb those machine gun like bullets Pac is winging. Pac looked like a WW against Hatton he was so thick. If Cotto feels the effects of those extra 2 pounds and loses, then he'll have to live with it the rest of his rich life. And when he's sitting in his rocking chair, sipping mojitos, he might regret that. $$$ doesn't follow you to the grave but legacy does. I desperately want to see the fight; I just don't like it. If Pac could not make more than 139 and said "hey guys, I can't do it; will Cotto come down for a catchweight and we'll make some $$$ and go at it", I could understand. There is no catchweight because Pac says he can fight in the WW's weight limits; it's ludicrous to me.
I don't know why I bothered; Bilbo will come in and shoot a Cruise Missile into my post and I've wasted brain cells that I couldn't afford to lose anyways:p My head hurts now. I'm going to tell Bilbo to fukk off right now; it will save time later;D
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.
Well if you believe all that all I can say is that you don't understand either boxing very well or basic human body mechanics.
There is a certain critical mass in boxing beyond which weight alone doesn't contribute as much because it comes at the expense of something else, usually speed and mobility.
A 147 lb, even a 168 lb man can be frighteningly fast and athletic. When you get to heavyweight however pure weight alone isn't an advantage, and in fact can even be a disadvantage.
If it were a wrestling contest where an opponent could make good use of that extra weight it would matter but above say 215 lbs, in a boxing sense, weight and size comes at the expense of size and speed.
Look at the animal kingdom, Lions and tigers (and in the past dinosaurs) can routinely take down and prey upon creatures much larger than themselves because their increased weight and size doesn't help them. It just makes them slow and ponderous. A lions superior mobility, it's powerful claws and body movements can see it easily bring down a wildebeast.
Leopards and cheetas also can bring down gazelles that outweigh them.
But a leopard would be hopeless against a lion because it's too small. The lion is bigger but not too big for its speed and mobility to be compromised. The fact that lions also have fearsome weapons can be an analogy also here in that it can represent talent and skill, punch power etc in boxers.
Roy Jones in moving up to fight John Ruiz was basically a leopard taking on a wildebeast. Ruiz was bigger but had literally NOTHING else in his favour whatsoever.
Manny meanwhile is moving up to face a bigger cat. It's like a cheetah vs a leopard a MUCH MUCH tougher fight.
I don't know if you're getting this but really I can't understand how little understanding some people have regarding this.
Above a certain weight, excess weight matters very little because boxing is not about bodyweight, it's about speed, power, strength, height and reach, skill, athleticism etc. Simple mass isn't a huge factor.
Manny is facing a bigger guy who will have a big advantage in natural power and strength, and is also evenly matched in skill, and not far behind in speed.
Ruiz was inferior to Roy Jones in every aspect other than size. Although a good win there is no real reason to believe Jones feat could not have been acomplished by many other fighters. I'm sure other former middleweights in Bernard Hopkins and Joe Calzaghe would be fancied to beat him, James Toney whupped his ass too.
But can you name a single other former flyweight in history who has moved up to welterweight to face the BEST man there (not a paper champ bum like Ruiz)?
No you simply cannot, and that is why its such a great feat.
Make no mistake a win for Manny over Cotto, were he to pull it off sees him join the ranks of Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard and Henry Armstrong as one of the top 10 fighters of all time.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
adamGb i think your talking to a wall, pacfans/huggers are banned already. i think im the only one left here. and i NEVER mentioned that its easy to lose a pound or two. my only argument about catchweights is that pac is a small guy and only bigger guys are left for him to fight, pac is already pushing it at 140.
mosley is somewhat connected to pac thats why he is saying that its difficult for him. oscar lost all that weight cause he think he will beat pac to a pulp. and the technic he used to lose all that weight is the real cause why he got so weak. he was on the target weight weeks before the weigh in, they figured that odlh will have more time to adjust to his lower weight.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I also like how your source for this article was Shane Mosely, who proved beyond doubt it WAS possible to move down not a couple pounds but SEVEN in his late thirties and still become the welterweight king.
Anyway by your logic Cotto only beat Mosely because it was at 'catchweight'.
This is what makes me laugh. Oscar drops to 147 to fight Manny coming up from 135 and it's a 'catchweight' fight.
Mosely also drops to 147, just like Oscar, with the same number fights, same age, same battle scars, and fights Cotto and NOBODY talks about Mosely giving up weight at all. It's ok, because he looked good.
If Oscar fucked up his training and couldn't make the drop shame on Oscar.
It has NO bearing on a potential Pacquaio vs Cotto fight.
Manny vs Cotto is one of the best possible fights that can be made in all of boxing right now, yet you all continue to try and put obstacle in the way of it.
Look, they are both elite world class p4p fighters, yet Cotto is much bigger. Therefore under normal circumstances we don't get a fight. If a catchweight allows us to witness this great boxing event I'm all for it.
Would you scoff also at the idea of a Mayweather vs Paul Williams fight at 157 lbs? Would you moan about Floyd dragging Paul down 3 lbs from 160?
Of course not (well maybe you would) it would be a great fight and Floyd would be showing some serious balls to move up and fight the much bigger man.
You all have one rule for Manny and another for everybody else.
I would absolutely 'scoff' at all those suggestions. Expect Williams comming down a few cause he could do 154 no problem.
Look. IMO catchweights are faggoty. Weight classes are there for a reason and its far more healthy to put on a few pounds than to loose a few.
Therefore, if a fight is to be made. Or more specifically, if Pacquiao wants to fight Welterweights, he should fight at welterweight.
I know there has been examples of Cathcweights along the past 20 years but none of them have been of any real consequence or for the betterment of Boxing.
Catchweight is a negotiation or in essence a demand. How long will it be before these demands are made by less than elliete fighters. Soon everyone will be demanding that fights are made at riddiculously random numbers. Its Unmanly, i said it beofre and i'll keep saying it...
Catchweights are gay and detrimental to the sport of Boxing.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Roy jones jr win maybe but Evander Holyfeilds wins over Bowie and even Foreman to me would be more impressive then Cotto win and way more impressive then a Oscar Dela Hoya win. Because those were skilled and strong fighters who had a good 20 to 30 pounds over Evander Holyfeild.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Ok Bilbo but lets face it weight classes change ever few pounds in lower weight lets see how much has pac moved up like 30 pounds right. While that is good both Jones and Holyfeild have moved up way more. Jones fought at LM comes all the way up to heavyweight and fights Ruiz who was weighing in 30 more pounds then him and 80 pounds more then were he started at that to me is impressive regardless of the talent he had. As for Holyfeild he started at 175 and fought men that were 255 yet again a 80 pound differents and when they came in ring they were 20 to 30 pounds more then he would and he still pull off wins that to me more impressive. Pac has never been out weighed in a fight like Jones or Holyfeild have and by such huge amounts as well i would say.
Well if you believe all that all I can say is that you don't understand either boxing very well or basic human body mechanics.
There is a certain critical mass in boxing beyond which weight alone doesn't contribute as much because it comes at the expense of something else, usually speed and mobility.
A 147 lb, even a 168 lb man can be frighteningly fast and athletic. When you get to heavyweight however pure weight alone isn't an advantage, and in fact can even be a disadvantage.
If it were a wrestling contest where an opponent could make good use of that extra weight it would matter but above say 215 lbs, in a boxing sense, weight and size comes at the expense of size and speed.
Look at the animal kingdom, Lions and tigers (and in the past dinosaurs) can routinely take down and prey upon creatures much larger than themselves because their increased weight and size doesn't help them. It just makes them slow and ponderous. A lions superior mobility, it's powerful claws and body movements can see it easily bring down a wildebeast.
Leopards and cheetas also can bring down gazelles that outweigh them.
But a leopard would be hopeless against a lion because it's too small. The lion is bigger but not too big for its speed and mobility to be compromised. The fact that lions also have fearsome weapons can be an analogy also here in that it can represent talent and skill, punch power etc in boxers.
Roy Jones in moving up to fight John Ruiz was basically a leopard taking on a wildebeast. Ruiz was bigger but had literally NOTHING else in his favour whatsoever.
Manny meanwhile is moving up to face a bigger cat. It's like a cheetah vs a leopard a MUCH MUCH tougher fight.
I don't know if you're getting this but really I can't understand how little understanding some people have regarding this.
Above a certain weight, excess weight matters very little because boxing is not about bodyweight, it's about speed, power, strength, height and reach, skill, athleticism etc. Simple mass isn't a huge factor.
Manny is facing a bigger guy who will have a big advantage in natural power and strength, and is also evenly matched in skill, and not far behind in speed.
Ruiz was inferior to Roy Jones in every aspect other than size. Although a good win there is no real reason to believe Jones feat could not have been acomplished by many other fighters. I'm sure other former middleweights in Bernard Hopkins and Joe Calzaghe would be fancied to beat him, James Toney whupped his ass too.
But can you name a single other former flyweight in history who has moved up to welterweight to face the BEST man there (not a paper champ bum like Ruiz)?
No you simply cannot, and that is why its such a great feat.
Make no mistake a win for Manny over Cotto, were he to pull it off sees him join the ranks of Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard and Henry Armstrong as one of the top 10 fighters of all time.
I answered this along with a bunch of other posters but you chose to ignore and stay on your soap box even though it was ridiculous...You just went on in an exhaustive manner about dinosaurs and predators of the Serengeti.
You can not deny the fact that at 16 a boy is not a full grown mature man, Pac started boxing at that age weighing in at 106lbs. in 16 years a worldclass athlete with all the money to hire strength and conditioning coaches along with nutritionists coupled with the fact Pac has an athletic frame. 30+ pounds of maturation and training in 16 years is not out of the ordinary. NO WAY AROUND IT
As far as the whole higher the weight slower you are, I suggest you watch David Haye or Wlad Klit who have frightening handspeed and power, or watch an NFL football game and see a 6'4 245lb linebacker chase down a 5'11 200lb running back and run him over like a locomotive
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
One thing I'm sick of hearing Bilbo is that Pac has gone through 8 divisions beating the best in each division, it's just not true, he's had his share of wildebeest as well.
Flyweight - Sasakul (He was the best in the division)
Super-Bantamweight - Ledwaba (A good fighter, but not the best, that was widely considered to be either Oscar Larios or Agapito Sanchez at that time)
Featherweight - Barrera & JMM (No complaints here, they were the best)
Super-Featherweight - Morales & JMM (Lost to EM, when he was the best, than went after him despite Raheem taking the belt. No shame in that, that's where the money was. Then finally fought JMM to decide the best SFW so no complaints here)
Lightweight - David Diaz (Anyone who tries to argue that Diaz was a credible champion is an idiot. He was at least the equivalent of John Ruiz in what was possibly the best division in the sport at that time, & with the likes of Campbell, Juan Diaz & Casamayor available, he went for a guy weaker than a load of guys challenging for the belt)
Light-Welterweight - Ricky Hatton (The best, much respect to Pac for the manner of this as well)
Welterweight - Assuming it's Cotto (NO, not the best in most people's eyes. Mosley beat the man who beat Cotto, hence becoming the best in the division, the general impression has been that Team Pac want no part of Mosley. Cotto on the other hand doesn't look like the fighter he once was.)
Btw, that's 7 divisions. Just because he fought in another for a few fights when he was a malnourished 16 year old doesn't mean he breezed through it.
I have the utmost respect for Pac & what he's accomplished & I think that list above is still unbelievably impressive. Also as for your point about speed, no way is Cotto comparable in speed, the only guy around that weight class who is, is Mayweather.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Its like with Holyfield.
I didn't know he recaptured the Heavyweight Crown a record 17 times?
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
There are really strong arguments being made for both sides of this issue. One thing I haven't seen explicitly mentioned is the perspective from which catchweights are analyzed. These seem to be some of the major themes in the debate.
From the point of view that boxing is a sport: catchweights can taint the purity of a contest and also have negative repercussions on the weight class system as a whole.
From the point of view that boxing is an entertainment industry: catchweights provide a means for marquee fighters to compete in superbouts that catch the public eye.
Considering that boxing has taken a bit of a hit in mainstream coverage, these "superbouts" could revitalize the sport's popularity. So it's a question of maintaining the purity of the sport versus making megafights under less than perfect conditions.
Tough call...
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
This has a massively simple answer: because he can.
Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.
In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.
That's pretty obvious, but when I say 'why' I am talking about his intention behind doing something, not his ability to do it.
And yes Bilbo... Cotto can agree to fight at whatever he wants to, I'm not evne knocking Pac here... this is just buisiness, some of his fans don't seem to understand how it works though... just giving them a wake up call.
The only part of this thread remotely aimed at you were the world class athletes/trainers saying that even a pound can be highly significant. It doesn't even have to be regarding Pacman at all, I just took issue that a number of posters responded to people saying that drying up even a pound extra
could make a huge difference to a (any) fighter as if they were clinically insane.
My opinions on pac are just my opinions, but that^ is a solid fact that Pacfans have been only too happyu to ignore so that they can heap the maximum ammount of praise on Pac possible for beating a name, not the circumstances.
I have to admit I haven't read any of your recent responses properly, I have been on the go since about 7am and it's time for some sleep but I'll be sure to check what has been said.
So doesn't this one pound is significant work both ways?
no, in this case we are talking about the toll and effect that losing a pound too many could take on a fighters electrolyte balance, hydration levels and endocrine system... not simply what one pound of mass will do in the ring.
Why should Manny keep moving up and fighting the best guys in their weight class with them having all the advantage?
I'm not saying that he should or shouldn't, that's his perogative really isn't it. I just think that his fans need to be aware of his strategy before they go apeshit over a win and talk only about the name he beat and not the circumstances
Hasn't he already moved up like 20 lbs? If a single pound counts so much and Manny has moved through 8 weight classes then cut him some slack.
I don't need to, I'm not having a go at the guy, realistically 140 is as high as he can go, he's not interested in moving up in weight now, just getting mega fights and marquee names... like a certain fighter despised by most Pacfans (whilst not as bad he is now being very similar). I'm not having a go at the guy for being small... but his minions need to know how it is.
The point you guys are missing is this.
What Manny is attempting to acomplish has NEVER EVER been acomplished before.
I know, Manny has acheived a lot, he is an all time great and he hasn't even retired yet,I would be stupid to say otherwise, it's not really relevant to what we're talking about though. Nobody is black and white
NO fighter EVER has EVER moved through 8 weight classes and then fought and defeated the BEST opponent in that weight class.
When you say 8 are you including Welterweight or something ??? if so that's a bit of a rich statement to be making
De La Hoya never managed it, he moved through less weight classes and his big fight against Hopkins (also forcing Hop to fight at catchweight he got knocked out).
So because Oscar does something it makes it 1005 undebatable for Pac to do the same ???. Also to play devil's advocate... are we talking about the same Bhop that lived like a monk and barely had to drop any weight at all, if any to make 160?
Duran, Leonard, Hearns never did it, Roy Jones Jr never did (he fought a terrible belt holder not even close to the best at heavyweight).
If Manny beats Cotto or Mosely it is one hell of a feat, considering he's a guy who was once at flyweight. Whether Cotto weighs in at 147 lbs or 145 lbs is simply not the issue.
responses in bold
Of course it would be BIlbo... I'm not saying that he deserves zero credit for it, but the Pac minions need to get it into perspective.
They will give him 147 pounds worth of credit, as if he beat Cotto genuinley at Welterweight (A catchweight is not a weight class... they have a begining and an end... take one away and it's not a weightclass, a weight class affords a fighter the ability to weigh in between a certain range, a catchweight does not... it's that simple).
I can't think of any sport other than boxing where a guy would have concesions made for him by their opponent to make the contest fairer and then have his fans confused as to why some people aren't willing to give 100% of the credit he'd get under the normal circumstances.
What ever the case, if Pac beats Cotto at a catchweight then the credit that he gets for this needs to be taken down a notch from the credit he would get for beating him at Welterweight.
That is not to say that he doesn't deserve a lot of credit for a win but it has to be put into perspective and have the circumstances considered. He was not simply the better man, he was the better man given the consesions that were made.
Sorry to put a downer on a potential win but the inevitable histeria and "second coming of christ" type prasing from Pac minions needs to be dampend. That's not to say that boxing fans can't give the guy his due but lets get it into perspective here, he shouldn't get less than his due he shouldn't get more than his due either.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Ok I won't reply to every point but just a few.
To those who say if Pacquaio wants to fight at welterweight then he should fight at welterweight are missing the point.
Pacquaio doesn't want to fight at welterweight he wants to fight Cotto.
Cotto isn't soley a welterweight, the majority of his career was at junior welter hence he is a junior welter/welterweight.
Manny doesn't give a tuppeny fuck about the WBO welterweight title he wants the prestige of beating the eliter juniorwelter/welter Miguel Cotto.
Both are P4P stars, they are NOT soley single division stars.
The weight class isn't important.
It doesn't taint the purity of the sport in any way. Having Juan Urango as a light welter world champ because Paulie Malignaggi wouldn't pay enough sanctioning fees to these greedy organistations is what taints the sport.
Manny Pacqauio is both bigger and better for the sport than the WBO welterweight strap.
No fan in the world cares about the history or heritage of that belt or any other.
When you watch a fight you arn't watching to see how the history of the WBO belt is going to unfurl they may as well be fighting for marbles or cream eggs, it just doesn't matter.
Manny vs Cotto is one of the biggest and best fights that can be made in our sport, from both a commercial and entertainment point of view, (to say nothing of legacy for both fighters) and anybody who would rather this didn't happen than to see the purity of the WBO belt heritage tarnished is just a complete idiot.
It doesn't matter that its at catchweight, not one single bit. It's still a megafight.
Shall we erase the Leanoard Hearns fight from our memory because it was a catchweight? What about the Gatti Ward trilogy?
Just get over it already, Manny and Cotto are both terrific fighters and a matchup between them would be a tremendous boxing event not just for purists but also for casual fans.
Its the kind of fight that can give boxing a massive shot in the arm but you guys would rather uphold some stupid traditions that don't even apply in a p4p fight between fighters of DIFFERENT weight classes.
Manny can fight at 135, 140, 147 he doesn't exist soley in any single division he is a p4p star.
Miguel can fight at 140 or 147, again he doesn't exist soley in any single division he is a p4p star.
Whether its at 145 or 147 is irelevent. Whether that height of prestige, the much coveted WBO strap is on the line is also irelevent.
It's all about two p4p stars meeting in the ring and giving us one hell of a fight.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
I don't care about the world title belt either. What matters most is the excitement factor that it's gonna creat. For example, the Pacquiao-Morales trilogy holds the record on most ppv buy. But none of those fights were for world title.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ASIAN SENSATION
I don't care about the world title belt either. What matters most is the excitement factor that it's gonna creat. For example, the Pacquiao-Morales trilogy holds the record on most ppv buy. But none of those fights were for world title.
A lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.
Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.
In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ASIAN SENSATION
I don't care about the world title belt either. What matters most is the excitement factor that it's gonna creat. For example, the Pacquiao-Morales trilogy holds the record on most ppv buy. But none of those fights were for world title.
A lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.
Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.
In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.
To be honest with you it has to do with Pacman's fans which in turn makes everyone hates Pacman and will use anything against him. I really don't like Pacman but seeing it from another perspective I really don't care about the catchweight if it's reasonable for Cotto.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ASIAN SENSATION
I don't care about the world title belt either. What matters most is the excitement factor that it's gonna creat. For example, the Pacquiao-Morales trilogy holds the record on most ppv buy. But none of those fights were for world title.
A lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.
Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.
In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.
To be honest with you it has to do with Pacman's fans which in turn makes everyone hates Pacman and will use anything against him. I really don't like Pacman but seeing it from another perspective I really don't care about the catchweight if it's reasonable for Cotto.
That's it in a nutshell really. Nobody has ever complained one iota about catchweight fights before, which happen a lot more often than people realise but because of Pacmania they are all over this like flies on shit.
It's sad because they are missing out on the satisfaction of enjoying a true boxing superstar in the making.
Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.
His story is tremendous when you consider the poverty he has come from. His success epitomises everything that is great about boxing and his own courage, humility and willingness to fight all comers should be aplauded.
He's the ultimate throwback fighter, never backs down, has taken on challenges that nobody thought possible a couple years ago and he wants to continue further.
Its so sad to allow a few Pac lovers on a forum to cloud your judgement so much that it prevents you from enjoying the one fighter who is doing more for boxing than any other right now.
We should be proud of Manny, he's a terrific little fighter, great and humble guy and an inspiration for an entire continent numbering billions.
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
A lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.
Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.
In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.
To be honest with you it has to do with Pacman's fans which in turn makes everyone hates Pacman and will use anything against him. I really don't like Pacman but seeing it from another perspective I really don't care about the catchweight if it's reasonable for Cotto.
That's it in a nutshell really. Nobody has ever complained one iota about catchweight fights before, which happen a lot more often than people realise but because of Pacmania they are all over this like flies on shit.
It's sad because they are missing out on the satisfaction of enjoying a true boxing superstar in the making.
Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.
His story is tremendous when you consider the poverty he has come from. His success epitomises everything that is great about boxing and his own courage, humility and willingness to fight all comers should be aplauded.
He's the ultimate throwback fighter, never backs down, has taken on challenges that nobody thought possible a couple years ago and he wants to continue further.
Its so sad to allow a few Pac lovers on a forum to cloud your judgement so much that it prevents you from enjoying the one fighter who is doing more for boxing than any other right now.
We should be proud of Manny, he's a terrific little fighter, great and humble guy and an inspiration for an entire continent numbering billions.
Absolutely. I really don't know how anyone could dislike the guy.
So just to be clear on this: if they do fight, will Cotto's WBO belt be on the line or not?
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Re: Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LEGION
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
To be honest with you it has to do with Pacman's fans which in turn makes everyone hates Pacman and will use anything against him. I really don't like Pacman but seeing it from another perspective I really don't care about the catchweight if it's reasonable for Cotto.
That's it in a nutshell really. Nobody has ever complained one iota about catchweight fights before, which happen a lot more often than people realise but because of Pacmania they are all over this like flies on shit.
It's sad because they are missing out on the satisfaction of enjoying a true boxing superstar in the making.
Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.
His story is tremendous when you consider the poverty he has come from. His success epitomises everything that is great about boxing and his own courage, humility and willingness to fight all comers should be aplauded.
He's the ultimate throwback fighter, never backs down, has taken on challenges that nobody thought possible a couple years ago and he wants to continue further.
Its so sad to allow a few Pac lovers on a forum to cloud your judgement so much that it prevents you from enjoying the one fighter who is doing more for boxing than any other right now.
We should be proud of Manny, he's a terrific little fighter, great and humble guy and an inspiration for an entire continent numbering billions.
Absolutely. I really don't know how anyone could dislike the guy.
So just to be clear on this: if they do fight, will Cotto's WBO belt be on the line or not?
Just to be clear, who the fuck cares!
It's simply not about the belt.
But IF the belt is on the line can anybody really begrudge Manny possibly winning it?
I mean with all the mediocre paper belt holders in boxing today why in the world would anybody begrudge Manny winning an historic title because Cotto weighed in a couple pounds under the limit?
I just don't see how it tarnishes boxing in any way whatsoever if the belt is on the line.
Really with guys like Juan Urango, Giacobbe Fragomeni, Karoly Balzsay, Malcom Klassen and Paulos Moses all being recognised as world champions, does it really 'tarnish' the sport if the unquestioned most exciting, explosive, dynamic little fighter in the world today gets given a WBO strap if he vanquishes the current holder a couple pounds below the max weight limit? :-\
No doubt to some fucking moany, whiny people it will be a travesty, but thankfully the boxing world pays no attention at all to them........
