Who wins in this versions of themselves the Heavyweight James Toney who stopped Holyfield or the Heavyweight Jones Jr who slapped Ruiz around?
Who and Why?
Thanks!!!
Printable View
Who wins in this versions of themselves the Heavyweight James Toney who stopped Holyfield or the Heavyweight Jones Jr who slapped Ruiz around?
Who and Why?
Thanks!!!
Roy Jones... he was still taking the sport seriously. His footspeed was too much for Toney at 168, and fat Toney p4p was a lot slower. Roy would stay away and pot shot him.
Toney was far from fat when he took on Holyfield, and IMO if Tarver could ko Jones (even if the weight hurt him, whats the excuse for Johnson), Toney who although not that big of a puncher, had more pop than Jones, and he'd basically be trailing and not by much to later stop Jones cold, and plz dude, that was one of Jones' lamest excuses, "it's just not fun anymore", yea of course it's not fun when someone finally knocks you sillyQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
James never really look that impressive at Heavyweight except against Holyfield and lets face it, Larry Donald looked like the savior of the heavyweight division against Holyfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesToney was far from fat when he took on Holyfield, and IMO if Tarver could ko Jones (even if the weight hurt him, whats the excuse for Johnson), Toney who although not that big of a puncher, had more pop than Jones, and he'd basically be trailing and not by much to later stop Jones cold, and plz dude, that was one of Jones' lamest excuses, "it's just not fun anymore", yea of course it's not fun when someone finally knocks you sillyQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
he looked pretty damn good against Ruiz and Sam Peter the first time out, and hell i'd even say that the Cruiserweight Toney would beat the HW JonesQuote:
Originally Posted by MajestyJames never really look that impressive at Heavyweight except against Holyfield and lets face it, Larry Donald looked like the savior of the heavyweight division against Holyfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesToney was far from fat when he took on Holyfield, and IMO if Tarver could ko Jones (even if the weight hurt him, whats the excuse for Johnson), Toney who although not that big of a puncher, had more pop than Jones, and he'd basically be trailing and not by much to later stop Jones cold, and plz dude, that was one of Jones' lamest excuses, "it's just not fun anymore", yea of course it's not fun when someone finally knocks you sillyQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
James Toney was weight drained when he fought RJJ, im a big fan of both fighters. But lets be frank here that was hardly the James Toney, that beat Michael Nunn, Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I agree that James Toney would struggle with RJJ's movement, especially at Heavyweight. But you never know, we never really see RJJ at Heavyweight. And beating John Ruiz tells me nothing, because James Toney was able to beat John Ruiz. Just as good even knocking him down.
James Toney had some impressive performances at Heavyweight, against Rydell Booker, Evander Holyfield, Dominick Guinn. And even though the smart moneys on RJJ winning a UD, it wouldn't suprise me if the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield. Clocked RJJ and put his lights out, James Toney could still hit fairly good at Heavyweight.
Well if we are gonna put the James Toney against Holyfield we can put the Roy Jones that fought Ruiz in there, now at this time Roy was basically untouchable and unstoppable, only when he moved down in weight back to Light Heavy was he knocked out and caught because of what it did to his body so lets throw all that out the window for this instance since if they'd fought it'd never happened. Because if we want to bring up Roy's faults when he went down to Light Heavyweight then we could also include that James Toney struggled with Fres Oquendo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBJames Toney was weight drained when he fought RJJ, im a big fan of both fighters. But lets be frank here that was hardly the James Toney, that beat Michael Nunn, Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I agree that James Toney would struggle with RJJ's movement, especially at Heavyweight. But you never know, we never really see RJJ at Heavyweight. And beating John Ruiz tells me nothing, because James Toney was able to beat John Ruiz. Just as good even knocking him down.
James Toney had some impressive performances at Heavyweight, against Rydell Booker, Evander Holyfield, Dominick Guinn. And even though the smart moneys on RJJ winning a UD, it wouldn't suprise me if the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield. Clocked RJJ and put his lights out, James Toney could still hit fairly good at Heavyweight.
Roy Jones would have beaten James again, James still had trouble with speed and at Heavyweight fought no one with Roy's kind of speed and wouldn't have made the same mistakes people like Ruiz made against him like leading in with your hands down and chin out.
Roy would have beaten James again. Because let's be honest here, James Toney may have been drained against Jones in their fight but it doesn't take away the fact that Roy was still that much faster and could time him at will. Regardless of what was going on with James weight even healthy on that night there was really nothing he would have done to Jones. A perfectlly fine James Toney fought Montell Griffin afterwards and lost twice. he wasn't beating Jones even if he wasn't as drained.
Toney would have been the first man to KO Jones Jr. Toney was pretty damn good at heavyweight for a couple of years, before the Burger King addiction and the roadwork allergy started to take their toll. I thought Toney was still extremely strong up until the first Peter fight (which I thought Toney won). It all fell apart after that.
Good post, totally agree with all of that. For a fair period after moving up form cruiserweight Toney was still remarkably good. Great handspeed, movement, and still a fair bit of pop.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBJames Toney was weight drained when he fought RJJ, im a big fan of both fighters. But lets be frank here that was hardly the James Toney, that beat Michael Nunn, Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I agree that James Toney would struggle with RJJ's movement, especially at Heavyweight. But you never know, we never really see RJJ at Heavyweight. And beating John Ruiz tells me nothing, because James Toney was able to beat John Ruiz. Just as good even knocking him down.
James Toney had some impressive performances at Heavyweight, against Rydell Booker, Evander Holyfield, Dominick Guinn. And even though the smart moneys on RJJ winning a UD, it wouldn't suprise me if the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield. Clocked RJJ and put his lights out, James Toney could still hit fairly good at Heavyweight.
I think people are forgetting how well, James Toney was doing between 2003-2005. I mean he arguably had some of his finest performances, between beating Vassiliy Jirov, up until beating Dominick Guinn.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesGood post, totally agree with all of that. For a fair period after moving up form cruiserweight Toney was still remarkably good. Great handspeed, movement, and still a fair bit of pop.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBJames Toney was weight drained when he fought RJJ, im a big fan of both fighters. But lets be frank here that was hardly the James Toney, that beat Michael Nunn, Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I agree that James Toney would struggle with RJJ's movement, especially at Heavyweight. But you never know, we never really see RJJ at Heavyweight. And beating John Ruiz tells me nothing, because James Toney was able to beat John Ruiz. Just as good even knocking him down.
James Toney had some impressive performances at Heavyweight, against Rydell Booker, Evander Holyfield, Dominick Guinn. And even though the smart moneys on RJJ winning a UD, it wouldn't suprise me if the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield. Clocked RJJ and put his lights out, James Toney could still hit fairly good at Heavyweight.
And i thought he looked good in all those fights, his weight did start to go up when he fought Rydell Booker. But he was still fine his workrate was good, his power was good considering the cirumstances. His speed was good enough and his defense as it always is, was superb.
Any version of jones beats any version of Toney. All the fighters that they share in common...Toney struggled with while Jones blew them away not too mention he soundly beat Toney himself. Someone mentioned that Toney looked good against Nunn..he was thoroughly being outboxed until he landed the lucky KO blow. Jones didn't lose that much in the abilities that separated him from Toney in their first fight, if anything Toney would have been a sitting duck because he actually stopped moving at the higher weights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI think people are forgetting how well, James Toney was doing between 2003-2005. I mean he arguably had some of his finest performances, between beating Vassiliy Jirov, up until beating Dominick Guinn.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesGood post, totally agree with all of that. For a fair period after moving up form cruiserweight Toney was still remarkably good. Great handspeed, movement, and still a fair bit of pop.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And i thought he looked good in all those fights, his weight did start to go up when he fought Rydell Booker. But he was still fine his workrate was good, his power was good considering the cirumstances. His speed was good enough and his defense as it always is, was superb.
Roy was always too fast and too good for James Toney.
At any weight he'd beat James 9/10 times.
A serious Toney at the cruiserweight limit of 200 pounds would be a serious endevour. Just don't think Toney is serious enough to get himself in that kind of shape any more. Jones would pot shot him for 12 rounds and win by 8 rounds to 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleshe looked pretty damn good against Ruiz and Sam Peter the first time out, and hell i'd even say that the Cruiserweight Toney would beat the HW JonesQuote:
Originally Posted by MajestyJames never really look that impressive at Heavyweight except against Holyfield and lets face it, Larry Donald looked like the savior of the heavyweight division against Holyfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
VS Tarver it was the weight that hurt him, I don't think he had recovered when he fought Johnson, he jumped right back into the mix to make everyone forget about the loss before he did. Johnson is a solid fighter, he applied constant pressure and Roy folded up on account of the fact he had never had to deal with that before.
James Toney is a different animal, he countered Evander all night long, and he dealt with John Ruiz's pressure easily. Roy is a guy who moved too much for Toney to be effective against. Toney likes people to come to him and Roy knew that the first time they fought and he whipped him and he'd do it again if they fought at heavyweight.
I think the bigger question is could James Toney have beaten Mike Tyson at that point in his career?
I would have ending the same way when they fought at 168. Again a boring ass fight with Jones easily taking a UD
Roy jones would still be too fast for Toney and would have pot shot his way to a UD.
Really good fight, that James Toney would have caught up with Roy and stopped him late or won it on points.
Its weird how so many people are letting the tarver kayo cloud their judgement. Heading into the ruiz fight no one could conceive jones being beat let alone kayoed. Now all of a sudden jones get's kayoed in every hypothetical match up or stopped late... what a bunch of bullshit.
It would be exactly like the 1st fight with Jones winning another unanimous decision.
Reality is Jones could be knocked out. Toney beat Holyfield in impressive fashion as well as Ruiz. Why is it bullshit that Jones could get KO ed?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
I don't really know what your on about, i never ever brought up RJJ losing at Light Heavyweight. And i never brought up any of RJJ's faults. All i said was that beating John Ruiz doesn't really tell me, how good he was at Heavyweight, because John Ruiz is pretty much a paper champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyWell if we are gonna put the James Toney against Holyfield we can put the Roy Jones that fought Ruiz in there, now at this time Roy was basically untouchable and unstoppable, only when he moved down in weight back to Light Heavy was he knocked out and caught because of what it did to his body so lets throw all that out the window for this instance since if they'd fought it'd never happened. Because if we want to bring up Roy's faults when he went down to Light Heavyweight then we could also include that James Toney struggled with Fres Oquendo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBJames Toney was weight drained when he fought RJJ, im a big fan of both fighters. But lets be frank here that was hardly the James Toney, that beat Michael Nunn, Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I agree that James Toney would struggle with RJJ's movement, especially at Heavyweight. But you never know, we never really see RJJ at Heavyweight. And beating John Ruiz tells me nothing, because James Toney was able to beat John Ruiz. Just as good even knocking him down.
James Toney had some impressive performances at Heavyweight, against Rydell Booker, Evander Holyfield, Dominick Guinn. And even though the smart moneys on RJJ winning a UD, it wouldn't suprise me if the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield. Clocked RJJ and put his lights out, James Toney could still hit fairly good at Heavyweight.
Roy Jones would have beaten James again, James still had trouble with speed and at Heavyweight fought no one with Roy's kind of speed and wouldn't have made the same mistakes people like Ruiz made against him like leading in with your hands down and chin out.
Roy would have beaten James again. Because let's be honest here, James Toney may have been drained against Jones in their fight but it doesn't take away the fact that Roy was still that much faster and could time him at will. Regardless of what was going on with James weight even healthy on that night there was really nothing he would have done to Jones. A perfectlly fine James Toney fought Montell Griffin afterwards and lost twice. he wasn't beating Jones even if he wasn't as drained.
And James Toney beat him pretty much the same, and arguably beat him even better because he managed to knock him down. And bringing James Toney struggling against Fres Oquendo is laughable, he was what 40 ? he was way overweight. And after 81 fights its clear as day he is shot to pieces.
Thats totally different to RJJ losing to Antonio Tarver, in which i don't think RJJ was that bad against Antonio Tarver. In there 2nd fight he looked fine its just he was caught by a lucky punch, but if your honestly trying to make a comparison to Antonio Tarver vs RJJ 2. Too James Toney vs Fres Oquendo then your seriously reaching.
And i never said you couldn't put the RJJ that fought John Ruiz, against the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield. Your putting words into my mouth i never said anything about RJJ's faults. Or him getting KO'ed at Light Heavyweight, i've only mentioned it now because you seem to think i did, in my other post when i clearly didn't.
I don't think its out of the question that James Toney, could beat RJJ at Heavyweight. RJJ was never technically a Heavyweight weight wise, and if James Toney landed flush on RJJ. Which he is clearly skilled enough to do, he could easily turn out RJJ's lights.
And lastly James Toney was clearly nowhere near, his best against RJJ. And i think everybody agrees that a perfectly healthy James Toney, would of gave RJJ all he could handle. And have you actually seen the 2nd Montel Grffin fight ? James Toney was clearly robbed in that fight and all the commentators were shocked when the decision was announced. That was a clear 3 or 4 point win for James Toney.
What fighters did James Toney struggle with, that RJJ blew away ? he beat Merqui Sosa easily, he beat Tony Thorton easily. He struggled against Montel Griffin the 1st time, like RJJ did. But in the rematch he beat him clearly but was robbed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherAny version of jones beats any version of Toney. All the fighters that they share in common...Toney struggled with while Jones blew them away not too mention he soundly beat Toney himself. Someone mentioned that Toney looked good against Nunn..he was thoroughly being outboxed until he landed the lucky KO blow. Jones didn't lose that much in the abilities that separated him from Toney in their first fight, if anything Toney would have been a sitting duck because he actually stopped moving at the higher weights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI think people are forgetting how well, James Toney was doing between 2003-2005. I mean he arguably had some of his finest performances, between beating Vassiliy Jirov, up until beating Dominick Guinn.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
And i thought he looked good in all those fights, his weight did start to go up when he fought Rydell Booker. But he was still fine his workrate was good, his power was good considering the cirumstances. His speed was good enough and his defense as it always is, was superb.
He struggled against an almost prime Mike McCallum, not the 40 year old version RJJ fought, and by the way. James Toney fought the same Mike McCallum, RJJ did in the 3rd meeting between James Toney and Mike McCallum. And he pretty much done the same as RJJ did. A 9-3 or 8-4 victory.
James Toney did struggle against Reggie Johnson, but he won a clear decision because he won a majority of the later rounds. Pay no attention to the SD victory it says on boxrec, James Toney clearly won by a few points. And lets remember that was a prime Reggie Johnson, not the 35 year old Reggie Johnson RJJ fought. And remember there was an 8 year difference between Reggie Johnson fighting James Toney and RJJ.
I know you haven't seen James Toney vs Michael Nunn, because everyone who says James Toney was getting dominated. And got a lucky punch have just read articles or just looked on boxrec, and see the scorecards and thats not what actually happened.
What happened was that James Toney did lose alot of the early rounds, but he was hurt by nothing Michael Nunn landed. Then i think it was after the 6th round or 7th round, James Toney won every round and going into the 11th round, he had won 4 rounds on the trot.
And he was only behind by 2 rounds at most, and Michael Nunn was starting to tire. And you could actually see the KO was coming, it wasn't a lucky punch at all and James Toney still could of earned a draw or even won.
The reason why when you look on boxrec, that the scorecards are wide. Is because it was in Michael Nunn's hometown. But in truth it was a close fight and James Toney was coming on strong, and Michael Nunn started to fade badly.
Lastly let me also tell you another fact, you may not of known. That was James Toney's first world title shot, so he was still inexperienced. And he was fighting a 6'3 P4P number 3 world champion, who was at that time considered to be a future ATG. And lets also remember theres rumours. That RJJ even avoided Michael Nunn, and for good reason because Michael Nunn would of gave him fits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI don't really know what your on about, i never ever brought up RJJ losing at Light Heavyweight. And i never brought up any of RJJ's faults. All i said was that beating John Ruiz doesn't really tell me, how good he was at Heavyweight, because John Ruiz is pretty much a paper champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyWell if we are gonna put the James Toney against Holyfield we can put the Roy Jones that fought Ruiz in there, now at this time Roy was basically untouchable and unstoppable, only when he moved down in weight back to Light Heavy was he knocked out and caught because of what it did to his body so lets throw all that out the window for this instance since if they'd fought it'd never happened. Because if we want to bring up Roy's faults when he went down to Light Heavyweight then we could also include that James Toney struggled with Fres Oquendo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Roy Jones would have beaten James again, James still had trouble with speed and at Heavyweight fought no one with Roy's kind of speed and wouldn't have made the same mistakes people like Ruiz made against him like leading in with your hands down and chin out.
Roy would have beaten James again. Because let's be honest here, James Toney may have been drained against Jones in their fight but it doesn't take away the fact that Roy was still that much faster and could time him at will. Regardless of what was going on with James weight even healthy on that night there was really nothing he would have done to Jones. A perfectlly fine James Toney fought Montell Griffin afterwards and lost twice. he wasn't beating Jones even if he wasn't as drained.
And James Toney beat him pretty much the same, and arguably beat him even better because he managed to knock him down. And bringing James Toney struggling against Fres Oquendo is laughable, he was what 40 ? he was way overweight. And after 81 fights its clear as day he is shot to pieces.
Thats totally different to RJJ losing to Antonio Tarver, in which i don't think RJJ was that bad against Antonio Tarver. In there 2nd fight he looked fine its just he was caught by a lucky punch, but if your honestly trying to make a comparison to Antonio Tarver vs RJJ 2. Too James Toney vs Fres Oquendo then your seriously reaching.
And i never said you couldn't put the RJJ that fought John Ruiz, against the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield. Your putting words into my mouth i never said anything about RJJ's faults. Or him getting KO'ed at Light Heavyweight, i've only mentioned it now because you seem to think i did, in my other post when i clearly didn't.
I don't think its out of the question that James Toney, could beat RJJ at Heavyweight. RJJ was never technically a Heavyweight weight wise, and if James Toney landed flush on RJJ. Which he is clearly skilled enough to do, he could easily turn out RJJ's lights.
And lastly James Toney was clearly nowhere near, his best against RJJ. And i think everybody agrees that a perfectly healthy James Toney, would of gave RJJ all he could handle. And have you actually seen the 2nd Montel Grffin fight ? James Toney was clearly robbed in that fight and all the commentators were shocked when the decision was announced. That was a clear 3 or 4 point win for James Toney.
Toney never knocked Ruiz down. He stood on his foot and it was incorrectly ruled a knockdown. Still a great performance though although lets not forget he was juiced and so the win was overturned,
Toney is/was a great fighter with some slick skills but he was a perrenial underachiever in many ways and the unbeaten Jones Jr who beat Ruiz wouldn't have let Toney have his way in a fight at any weight imo.
I'd go with Roy Jones to outbox him over 12 rounds,
I go with Toney.The weights for their 'Heavyweight' experience were much different.Would have been a cruiser fight or yet another catch weight affair really.Toney in tip top from,the Washington fight,I think would keep Jones very honest and rough him up.....Jones had 1 fight at hvy,and we all know that one heavyweight fight does not make a heavyweight,especially these days ;D.Came against a guy Toney whipped as well.Toney much thicker up there.
Actually Ive seen all the fights i mentioned. And Toney struggled with sosa only managed a SD even with the flash KD and point deduction. TOneys swas beaten twice by Montell Griffith if that's not struggling with I don't know what is. Roy was about to stop montel griffith in the first fight. And hometown or not Toney was losing the nunn fight because he was being outboxed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBWhat fighters did James Toney struggle with, that RJJ blew away ? he beat Merqui Sosa easily, he beat Tony Thorton easily. He struggled against Montel Griffin the 1st time, like RJJ did. But in the rematch he beat him clearly but was robbed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherAny version of jones beats any version of Toney. All the fighters that they share in common...Toney struggled with while Jones blew them away not too mention he soundly beat Toney himself. Someone mentioned that Toney looked good against Nunn..he was thoroughly being outboxed until he landed the lucky KO blow. Jones didn't lose that much in the abilities that separated him from Toney in their first fight, if anything Toney would have been a sitting duck because he actually stopped moving at the higher weights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
He struggled against an almost prime Mike McCallum, not the 40 year old version RJJ fought, and by the way. James Toney fought the same Mike McCallum, RJJ did in the 3rd meeting between James Toney and Mike McCallum. And he pretty much done the same as RJJ did. A 9-3 or 8-4 victory.
James Toney did struggle against Reggie Johnson, but he won a clear decision because he won a majority of the later rounds. Pay no attention to the SD victory it says on boxrec, James Toney clearly won by a few points. And lets remember that was a prime Reggie Johnson, not the 35 year old Reggie Johnson RJJ fought. And remember there was an 8 year difference between Reggie Johnson fighting James Toney and RJJ.
I know you haven't seen James Toney vs Michael Nunn, because everyone who says James Toney was getting dominated. And got a lucky punch have just read articles or just looked on boxrec, and see the scorecards and thats not what actually happened.
What happened was that James Toney did lose alot of the early rounds, but he was hurt by nothing Michael Nunn landed. Then i think it was after the 6th round or 7th round, James Toney won every round and going into the 11th round, he had won 4 rounds on the trot.
And he was only behind by 2 rounds at most, and Michael Nunn was starting to tire. And you could actually see the KO was coming, it wasn't a lucky punch at all and James Toney still could of earned a draw or even won.
The reason why when you look on boxrec, that the scorecards are wide. Is because it was in Michael Nunn's hometown. But in truth it was a close fight and James Toney was coming on strong, and Michael Nunn started to fade badly.
Lastly let me also tell you another fact, you may not of known. That was James Toney's first world title shot, so he was still inexperienced. And he was fighting a 6'3 P4P number 3 world champion, who was at that time considered to be a future ATG. And lets also remember theres rumours. That RJJ even avoided Michael Nunn, and for good reason because Michael Nunn would of gave him fits.
And this is pointless discussion because as I said before when roy went up to HW he still had the same skills that set them apart anyway, toney would have been pot shot to death at heavy weight and even in the smw weight fight he landed flush on jones and jones took it standing up. jones would win.
But you clearly haven't seen James Toney vs Merqui Sosa. Because you wouldn't be saying, it was anywhere close to a MD. James Toney won the first 6 rounds easy as pie, he took a few rounds off and he maybe lost 3 rounds at most. Then he started using his jab and he controlled the fight again, infact i'll put this fight on here. And i'll make a thread about it, and lets see if anyone thinks it was close.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherActually Ive seen all the fights i mentioned. And Toney struggled with sosa only managed a SD even with the flash KD and point deduction. TOneys swas beaten twice by Montell Griffith if that's not struggling with I don't know what is. Roy was about to stop montel griffith in the first fight. And hometown or not Toney was losing the nunn fight because he was being outboxed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBWhat fighters did James Toney struggle with, that RJJ blew away ? he beat Merqui Sosa easily, he beat Tony Thorton easily. He struggled against Montel Griffin the 1st time, like RJJ did. But in the rematch he beat him clearly but was robbed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
He struggled against an almost prime Mike McCallum, not the 40 year old version RJJ fought, and by the way. James Toney fought the same Mike McCallum, RJJ did in the 3rd meeting between James Toney and Mike McCallum. And he pretty much done the same as RJJ did. A 9-3 or 8-4 victory.
James Toney did struggle against Reggie Johnson, but he won a clear decision because he won a majority of the later rounds. Pay no attention to the SD victory it says on boxrec, James Toney clearly won by a few points. And lets remember that was a prime Reggie Johnson, not the 35 year old Reggie Johnson RJJ fought. And remember there was an 8 year difference between Reggie Johnson fighting James Toney and RJJ.
I know you haven't seen James Toney vs Michael Nunn, because everyone who says James Toney was getting dominated. And got a lucky punch have just read articles or just looked on boxrec, and see the scorecards and thats not what actually happened.
What happened was that James Toney did lose alot of the early rounds, but he was hurt by nothing Michael Nunn landed. Then i think it was after the 6th round or 7th round, James Toney won every round and going into the 11th round, he had won 4 rounds on the trot.
And he was only behind by 2 rounds at most, and Michael Nunn was starting to tire. And you could actually see the KO was coming, it wasn't a lucky punch at all and James Toney still could of earned a draw or even won.
The reason why when you look on boxrec, that the scorecards are wide. Is because it was in Michael Nunn's hometown. But in truth it was a close fight and James Toney was coming on strong, and Michael Nunn started to fade badly.
Lastly let me also tell you another fact, you may not of known. That was James Toney's first world title shot, so he was still inexperienced. And he was fighting a 6'3 P4P number 3 world champion, who was at that time considered to be a future ATG. And lets also remember theres rumours. That RJJ even avoided Michael Nunn, and for good reason because Michael Nunn would of gave him fits.
And this is pointless discussion because as I said before when roy went up to HW he still had the same skills that set them apart anyway, toney would have been pot shot to death at heavy weight and even in the smw weight fight he landed flush on jones and jones took it standing up. jones would win.
And again you clearly haven't seen both Montel Griffin fights, and your just basing it off looking at the scorecards. The first fight was close but many people thought James Toney just nicked it, and as i said RJJ was having all sorts out problems with Montel Griffin. Until he finally caught up with him. No real different to James Toney, except RJJ managed to catch up to him eventually.
In the rematch both men beat him comfortably, yes RJJ done it more convincingly with an impressive 1st round KO. But points wise James Toney easily won atleast 7-4-1 or 8-4. The commentators were calling BS, and so was i it was a clear robbery. And anyone who has seen the fight knows it is.
And again your basing this off two much at happened at 168, firstly James Toney was a weight-drained mess. And he has often had weight problems and looked terrible. We are on about a healthy James Toney, and we are on about at Heavyweight. A 193 pounds RJJ vs 217 pounds James Toney.
And you honestly don't think a 100 percent James Toney, wouldn't have a good chance at KO'ing RJJ ?
Well i never see the replay, but i do remember a right hand landed. But whatever balance issue or not, he still beat John Ruiz, pretty much the same as RJJ did.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBI don't really know what your on about, i never ever brought up RJJ losing at Light Heavyweight. And i never brought up any of RJJ's faults. All i said was that beating John Ruiz doesn't really tell me, how good he was at Heavyweight, because John Ruiz is pretty much a paper champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
And James Toney beat him pretty much the same, and arguably beat him even better because he managed to knock him down. And bringing James Toney struggling against Fres Oquendo is laughable, he was what 40 ? he was way overweight. And after 81 fights its clear as day he is shot to pieces.
Thats totally different to RJJ losing to Antonio Tarver, in which i don't think RJJ was that bad against Antonio Tarver. In there 2nd fight he looked fine its just he was caught by a lucky punch, but if your honestly trying to make a comparison to Antonio Tarver vs RJJ 2. Too James Toney vs Fres Oquendo then your seriously reaching.
And i never said you couldn't put the RJJ that fought John Ruiz, against the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield. Your putting words into my mouth i never said anything about RJJ's faults. Or him getting KO'ed at Light Heavyweight, i've only mentioned it now because you seem to think i did, in my other post when i clearly didn't.
I don't think its out of the question that James Toney, could beat RJJ at Heavyweight. RJJ was never technically a Heavyweight weight wise, and if James Toney landed flush on RJJ. Which he is clearly skilled enough to do, he could easily turn out RJJ's lights.
And lastly James Toney was clearly nowhere near, his best against RJJ. And i think everybody agrees that a perfectly healthy James Toney, would of gave RJJ all he could handle. And have you actually seen the 2nd Montel Grffin fight ? James Toney was clearly robbed in that fight and all the commentators were shocked when the decision was announced. That was a clear 3 or 4 point win for James Toney.
Toney never knocked Ruiz down. He stood on his foot and it was incorrectly ruled a knockdown. Still a great performance though although lets not forget he was juiced and so the win was overturned,
Toney is/was a great fighter with some slick skills but he was a perrenial underachiever in many ways and the unbeaten Jones Jr who beat Ruiz wouldn't have let Toney have his way in a fight at any weight imo.
I'd go with Roy Jones to outbox him over 12 rounds,
And let me remind you of something, many people believe RJJ juiced against John Ruiz. Because he put on alot of weight quickly, and was ripped as hell. And theres strong evidence to prove so.
I actually don't think James Toney, was that much of an underachiever. He should of won the Heavyweight title IMO, and he had a great career at Middleweight/Super Middleweight. Aswell as a good career at Cruiserweight and Heavyweight.
I know what your saying that he had a few off performances, and he should of beat some fighters more clearly. But he had 82 fights you gotta except some off performances, it is a shame that he was sometimes lazy and got himself in horrible shape.
But if you actually look at his career, and look at his best wins. He isn't as much as an underachiever as you would think is. He probably could of done a bit better at Heavyweight, had he kept himself in good shape. And he could of done better against RJJ, and some other opponents. But overall i think he had a great career.
Okay then we're talking about the roy that fought ruiz, before he was knocked out? Then roy would do the same thing to toney that he did to him at 168. what I'm trying to figure out is how someone can say toney would kayo jones when at that point he'd never been near a kayo? Toney would have been a stationary target for jones at HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBut you clearly haven't seen James Toney vs Merqui Sosa. Because you wouldn't be saying, it was anywhere close to a MD. James Toney won the first 6 rounds easy as pie, he took a few rounds off and he maybe lost 3 rounds at most. Then he started using his jab and he controlled the fight again, infact i'll put this fight on here. And i'll make a thread about it, and lets see if anyone thinks it was close.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherActually Ive seen all the fights i mentioned. And Toney struggled with sosa only managed a SD even with the flash KD and point deduction. TOneys swas beaten twice by Montell Griffith if that's not struggling with I don't know what is. Roy was about to stop montel griffith in the first fight. And hometown or not Toney was losing the nunn fight because he was being outboxed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And this is pointless discussion because as I said before when roy went up to HW he still had the same skills that set them apart anyway, toney would have been pot shot to death at heavy weight and even in the smw weight fight he landed flush on jones and jones took it standing up. jones would win.
And again you clearly haven't seen both Montel Griffin fights, and your just basing it off looking at the scorecards. The first fight was close but many people thought James Toney just nicked it, and as i said RJJ was having all sorts out problems with Montel Griffin. Until he finally caught up with him. No real different to James Toney, except RJJ managed to catch up to him eventually.
In the rematch both men beat him comfortably, yes RJJ done it more convincingly with an impressive 1st round KO. But points wise James Toney easily won atleast 7-4-1 or 8-4. The commentators were calling BS, and so was i it was a clear robbery. And anyone who has seen the fight knows it is.
And again your basing this off two much at happened at 168, firstly James Toney was a weight-drained mess. And he has often had weight problems and looked terrible. We are on about a healthy James Toney, and we are on about at Heavyweight. A 193 pounds RJJ vs 217 pounds James Toney.
And you honestly don't think a 100 percent James Toney, wouldn't have a good chance at KO'ing RJJ ?
Sorry bro but im not getting through to you am i ? forget the fight they had at 168. Because that was James Toney at his worse, RJJ had some pretty horrible performances himself like against Eric Harding. Lets erase that because we are talking about, both men at there best.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherOkay then we're talking about the roy that fought ruiz, before he was knocked out? Then roy would do the same thing to toney that he did to him at 168. what I'm trying to figure out is how someone can say toney would kayo jones when at that point he'd never been near a kayo? Toney would have been a stationary target for jones at HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBut you clearly haven't seen James Toney vs Merqui Sosa. Because you wouldn't be saying, it was anywhere close to a MD. James Toney won the first 6 rounds easy as pie, he took a few rounds off and he maybe lost 3 rounds at most. Then he started using his jab and he controlled the fight again, infact i'll put this fight on here. And i'll make a thread about it, and lets see if anyone thinks it was close.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And again you clearly haven't seen both Montel Griffin fights, and your just basing it off looking at the scorecards. The first fight was close but many people thought James Toney just nicked it, and as i said RJJ was having all sorts out problems with Montel Griffin. Until he finally caught up with him. No real different to James Toney, except RJJ managed to catch up to him eventually.
In the rematch both men beat him comfortably, yes RJJ done it more convincingly with an impressive 1st round KO. But points wise James Toney easily won atleast 7-4-1 or 8-4. The commentators were calling BS, and so was i it was a clear robbery. And anyone who has seen the fight knows it is.
And again your basing this off two much at happened at 168, firstly James Toney was a weight-drained mess. And he has often had weight problems and looked terrible. We are on about a healthy James Toney, and we are on about at Heavyweight. A 193 pounds RJJ vs 217 pounds James Toney.
And you honestly don't think a 100 percent James Toney, wouldn't have a good chance at KO'ing RJJ ?
Now the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield, where he was 217 pounds. And RJJ was 193 pounds against John Ruiz. Now im not saying RJJ couldn't win a decision.
All im saying is think about the weight difference, and think about RJJ taking a punch off James Toney. John Ruiz landed only one real punch against RJJ, and John Ruiz is a paper champion. That tells us really nothing about RJJ at Heavyweight.
Lastly RJJ wasn't even legitmately a Heavyweight, James Toney at his best was a good as he was at Cruiserweight. He had the chin, the defense, the workrate, and enough power to KO RJJ. Plus he has a big weight advantage. I know John Ruiz did aswell, but this is John Ruiz were on about not James Toney who is leagues above John Ruiz, even at Heavyweight.
Toney was a great fighter at every weight he fought. But roy jones would still out point him even at HW. Toney was able to make the slower true HW miss him and counter.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBSorry bro but im not getting through to you am i ? forget the fight they had at 168. Because that was James Toney at his worse, RJJ had some pretty horrible performances himself like against Eric Harding. Lets erase that because we are talking about, both men at there best.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherOkay then we're talking about the roy that fought ruiz, before he was knocked out? Then roy would do the same thing to toney that he did to him at 168. what I'm trying to figure out is how someone can say toney would kayo jones when at that point he'd never been near a kayo? Toney would have been a stationary target for jones at HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Now the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield, where he was 217 pounds. And RJJ was 193 pounds against John Ruiz. Now im not saying RJJ couldn't win a decision.
All im saying is think about the weight difference, and think about RJJ taking a punch off James Toney. John Ruiz landed only one real punch against RJJ, and John Ruiz is a paper champion. That tells us really nothing about RJJ at Heavyweight.
Lastly RJJ wasn't even legitmately a Heavyweight, James Toney at his best was a good as he was at Cruiserweight. He had the chin, the defense, the workrate, and enough power to KO RJJ. Plus he has a big weight advantage. I know John Ruiz did aswell, but this is John Ruiz were on about not James Toney who is leagues above John Ruiz, even at Heavyweight.
And even when roy "struggled" with harding he still was up in every round...
Toney's weight wouldn't have mattered against Jones. The only person Toney stopped at heavyweight was an old and very past it Evander Holyfield who as I said Larry Donald even looked spectacular against. I think that Holyfield fight majorly overrates Toney at Heavyweight. The Ruiz fight I agree on. But seriously if you had put Roy in there with Holyfield then he'd have done the same thing and probably worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBSorry bro but im not getting through to you am i ? forget the fight they had at 168. Because that was James Toney at his worse, RJJ had some pretty horrible performances himself like against Eric Harding. Lets erase that because we are talking about, both men at there best.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherOkay then we're talking about the roy that fought ruiz, before he was knocked out? Then roy would do the same thing to toney that he did to him at 168. what I'm trying to figure out is how someone can say toney would kayo jones when at that point he'd never been near a kayo? Toney would have been a stationary target for jones at HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Now the James Toney that fought Evander Holyfield, where he was 217 pounds. And RJJ was 193 pounds against John Ruiz. Now im not saying RJJ couldn't win a decision.
All im saying is think about the weight difference, and think about RJJ taking a punch off James Toney. John Ruiz landed only one real punch against RJJ, and John Ruiz is a paper champion. That tells us really nothing about RJJ at Heavyweight.
Lastly RJJ wasn't even legitmately a Heavyweight, James Toney at his best was a good as he was at Cruiserweight. He had the chin, the defense, the workrate, and enough power to KO RJJ. Plus he has a big weight advantage. I know John Ruiz did aswell, but this is John Ruiz were on about not James Toney who is leagues above John Ruiz, even at Heavyweight.
James didn't have the power to stop Jones nor would Roy have put himself in that position. If James was gonna knockout Jones he'd have had to chase him. Let's not neglect Roy's power at Heavyweight either. Roy had Ruiz on queer street, James stepped on his foot to knock him down and even then Ruiz wasn't hurt. Roy had Ruiz LEGIT hurt and on wobbly legs in his first heavyweight fight. Toney's biggest advantages at heavyweight were that he was fighting methodical heavyweights that played right into his hands. He would have stuggled when he got to Jones because Jones would have been the first fighter in a long time that was actually faster then him and just as good a counter puncher. James Toney can beat a guy all day that comes at them with a blind fury but Roy would have pot shot him and James would have had to come forward, Roy had power at heavyweight too and if they are both at their best it means Roy's legs wouldn't have been shot like they were when he went down to 175, without his legs and his body being shot I don't see how Toney would have knocked him out and let's not forget the first heavyweight to actually use a jab against James beat him sadly that was Sam Peter in the second fight and I don't know if we can include that fight. But Roy at Heavyweight used his jab more then he did in his career and it was a great jab as well that would have caused Toney issues as well. The only chance Toney really had to beat Jones at heavyweight was knocking him out and I just don't see that happening