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ive started this thread because a good friend of mine bilbo and i have got into a disagreement of who would win a fight between the roy jones of today vs the pavlik of today. i think jones would school pavlik where as bilbo seems to think pavlik would wear jones down and stop him. i just wanted ur guys opinion
Roy would probably outbox him
If Roy laid on the ropes against Kelly like he did with Lacy eventually he'd get stopped.
exactly my thoughts mate. pavlik is far 2 1 dimensional for jones. come on people, pavlik would get his head rumbled :fighting0043gi5:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel
Pavlik too long,straight and strong for Roy at 40.Come on?His one deminsion would suit him well and Jones could not hang on the ropes.I dont think Roy would be able to walk to Pavlik as Hopkins did.
Pavlik would probably stop him. Dont look too much into Roys win over Lacy. Its just Lacy. :p
The only fighter Pavlik hasn't completely dominated in recent years is B Hop, and that was Pavlik on his worst night.Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy448exactly my thoughts mate. pavlik is far 2 1 dimensional for jones. come on people, pavlik would get his head rumbled :fighting0043gi5:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel
He's completely smashed everyone else including being the first to knock out Jermain Taylor and Edison Miranda.
Jones hasn't just been knocked out twice, he's been knocked unconscious, for several minutes. You don't recover from that and his ability to take a punch has now evaporated.
He's like Chuck Liddell, for sure he still has the skills to be competitive but when the heat is turned up and somebody lands it's going to be good night.
Watch the Calzaghe fight again and see how one sided that fight was. Jones just doesn't have it at the highest level any more.
He can still fight on and entertain, but he needs to pick his fights carefully. Green is a great matchup can't wait for that one, and for the reasons I gave earlier a rematch with B Hop or a clash with Winky would be stylistically suited to Jones.
But the top dogs he can forget about at this stage in his career.
Nobody wants to see him laid on his back again against a fighter who couldn't touch him in his prime and that's likely to be what would happen if he faced Kessler, Dawson, Froch, Pascal etc.
At light heavy, Pavliks punches wouldnt effect RJJ. Roy would baffle him and Pavlik would get picked apart as the frusteration set in. I think Roy has a decent chin and he can take Pavliks best punches and shrug them off. Dont know that Pavlik, who ha little head movenent, could handle Roys snapping punches.
Tall fighters with good jabs EXACTLY what Roy has toruble with Pavlik KO7
Really Boom?I mean his whole thing at prime was not getting hit clean...speed,instinct.Weight aside,To go in with Pavlik on who takes a better shot is to play with a forrest fire.Dont get me wrong....Roy of past could get under Pavlik,move off and have him running into shots but I just don't see this Jones being able to get off clean and move out like he would have too over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomBoom
Boom Roy's chin has been broken long agoQuote:
Originally Posted by BoomBoom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0zW3fitWNs
His punch resistance has gone.
Whilst on the subject, Jones hasn't actually stopped anyone properly in years, both Lacy and Sheika stood up to his punches but were totally outclassed.
Pavlik has stood up to Miranda, Hopkins and Taylor, a 40 year old Jones sure ain't knocking him out
Jones would have to hurt KP at least enough to make him gunshy but Roy has no legs as far as moving for 12 rounds, even though he's pretty good against the ropes that's a horrible gameplan against a guy like Pavlik.
The effective movement is one of the big differences between Hopkins and Jones now and its what bothered Kelly a lot in the Hops fight.
Pavlik stops him!
Jones would lay on the ropes and get flattened by Pavlik's right hand. It would be an ugly, ugly stoppage.
This is a good concept for a fight. I think this could possibly happen at a catchweight. I think Roy could and would catch Pavlik with a lot of shots and look good at times but Roy sitting on the ropes would be too convinient for Kelly.
If Jones imposes himself offensively, then he could take a decision, but he can't look for spots. He has to make Kelly gunshy, like someone else said in a previous post.
If Jones allows Kelly to punch away on the ropes, this could end up like another Calzaghe fight.
I understand we're not supposed to look too much into Roy's last performance over Lacy but he didn't just make him look bad, he made him look like a child.
I just don't see Pavlik as a what people are saying he is. He is very predictable and telling. I think Roy fighting Pavlik would not be like Lacy. Remember Lacy doesn't just hit hard he also is about as strong of a fighter as you'll see. Lacy's body strength made Roy go to the ropes a lot more than he'd like. Pavlik hits hard but he isn't a strong body. So his pressure is more mobile. I think even this version of Roy would box circles around him. If Pavlik had the body strength he would have beaten BHop like Taylor did. Pavlik reminds me of Trinidad. Sharp strong punches but little body strength. I think you have to overpower Roy at this point. Of course, Pavlik has a puncher's chance against anyone though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
Pavlik is light years ahead of Jeff Lacy.
As an example look at what Pavlik did to Taylor and then look at what Taylor did to Lacy.
Jeff Lacy hasn't convingly won a fight since losing to Calzaghe, you could make a serious case that he lost every single one 7 in a row, in fact its really hard to say he won more than one, the fight with Manfredo, his other wins were dubious decisions at best.
If Jones thought he could hang with Pavlik or dawson don't you think he'd be trying to get those guys rather than the Lacy's and Sheika's of the world?
When he's fought world class opposition since the Ruiz fight he's been overmatched and mostly dominated. Tarver should have had 3 wins against him, Johnson dominated him, Calzaghe dominated him.
You guys are just wishful thinking, just like when we were expecting the next Tyson comeback, or Holyfield comeback. It ain't going to happen I'm afraid, not against the world's best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
agreed
ive never bought into the pavlik phenomena and never will do. A world class fighter will always beat pavlik and that`ll once more be proven when williams beats kelly up.
Even a 40year old jones would be just too big a task for pavlik. If kelly cant see a hopkins uppercut what chance does he have with a jones hook
roy by possible stoppage........pavlik will get to frustrated...ala hopkins fight....
At middleweight Pavlik.
Jones late round TKO. Way to smart.
What it comes down to is the type of punch that hurts Jones. Jones may not be what he used to be, but his eyes are still very good. A predictable fighter has never beat him. Johnson, Tarver, Calzaghe, all got to him with punches he didnt see coming. All these guys used odd angles, Pavlik throw basic punches. He would see Pavliks punches coming and take them on the gloves and forearms. Roys defence isnt great but it works well for guys wo through textbook punches. The punches Roy gets hit with come around his gloves. Also foot placement is key. Pavlik is not fast on his feet and Roy would not let him set his feet to get off his power punches. He would stay a step ahead every time because he is a superior technitian and knows his range as good as anyone and can command the center of the ring even at 40. He is still strong enough, and stronger than Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliReally Boom?I mean his whole thing at prime was not getting hit clean...speed,instinct.Weight aside,To go in with Pavlik on who takes a better shot is to play with a forrest fire.Dont get me wrong....Roy of past could get under Pavlik,move off and have him running into shots but I just don't see this Jones being able to get off clean and move out like he would have too over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomBoom
lol all this "If Roy lays against the ropes he is gonna get KO'd" Didn't people say the same thing about the Lacy fight?
Roy hits a lot harder then Hopkins or Taylor and Pavlik has shown he doesn't have a "steel" chin either. Hopkins had him baffled and on queer street and hurt at times at 168 at 175 Roy would completely dismantle him.
LOL Lacy's just not good, sorry to his fans but he's just completely lost whatever he once had, he barely beat Mendoza ffs. I think Roy laying against the ropes is a bad move against Pavlik but I didn't think it mattered against Lacy, I picked Jones to TKO him knowing that he'd lay on the ropes all night. He doesn't have the legs to stay in the center of the ring or move.
And Roy doesn't hit harder than Hopkins now. He just doesn't seem to get much on his punches these days.
Could Roy win? I guess. Kelly's got his vulnerabilities we all know that. But he's no Jeff Lacy. This Roy thing now is smoke and mirrors IMO. The Calzaghe fight was depressing and I'm not even a big fan and that was what a year ago?
Jones will always hold a PHD and Masters over Pavlik when it comes to ring smarts and accomplishments.No doubts dude,but this is now.I have very little to base his rebirth on as if we are talking prime Roy here.?His legs are history and he's riding ropes for a reason.He has everything on his terms and pace over last two but Pavlik....in all of his one deminsional & predictable glory is a different animal.And I just dont think Roy can deal with solid pressure from top guys and certainly roll with a straight puncher,no matter what angle or demension they come from.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomBoomWhat it comes down to is the type of punch that hurts Jones. Jones may not be what he used to be, but his eyes are still very good. A predictable fighter has never beat him. Johnson, Tarver, Calzaghe, all got to him with punches he didnt see coming. All these guys used odd angles, Pavlik throw basic punches. He would see Pavliks punches coming and take them on the gloves and forearms. Roys defence isnt great but it works well for guys wo through textbook punches. The punches Roy gets hit with come around his gloves. Also foot placement is key. Pavlik is not fast on his feet and Roy would not let him set his feet to get off his power punches. He would stay a step ahead every time because he is a superior technitian and knows his range as good as anyone and can command the center of the ring even at 40. He is still strong enough, and stronger than Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliReally Boom?I mean his whole thing at prime was not getting hit clean...speed,instinct.Weight aside,To go in with Pavlik on who takes a better shot is to play with a forrest fire.Dont get me wrong....Roy of past could get under Pavlik,move off and have him running into shots but I just don't see this Jones being able to get off clean and move out like he would have too over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomBoom
If you think Pavlik is going to smother Roy and throw 100 punches a round and use that for refence. Pavlik's performance against Hopkins was sad, and he is supposed to be in his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Pavlik isn't so great that he would dominate Roy Jones Jr much less at 175. Pavlik's only chance would be to land that huge right hand how do we even know if Pavlik's power carries all the way up to 175 and Calzaghe at 168 hit Roy with everything he had and Roy also had a bad cut yet was never close to being stopped in that fight but Pavlik moving up two weight classes is gonna stop him by putting him up against the ropes and land the one hail mary shot that's gonna knock him out. Pavlik isn't even gonna do what Johnson did to Roy by smothering him with endless punches, Pavlik is gonna try to cut the ring off and measure Jones so he can land a bit right hand. Pavlik goes into a shell too similar to what people say Roy does when people throw their offense at him and it gets him in trouble at times. The difference is Roy doesn't have to worry about getting outworked if he goes into a shell all he has to do is watch for that right hand. But he can outwork Pavlik when Pavlik goes into a shell just as bad as people say Roy goes into.
I don't get why people acknowledge only Roy's chin and defensive lapses yet ignore Pavliks.
Hopkins hit Pavlik flush all night and never once had him seriously hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Also, comparing Pavlik to Lacy is utterly ridiculous.
First, LOL at the last line, all people do on here is talk about Pavlik's defensive lapses. His chin, meh, its not the best in the world but he always recovers, I think he should at least be knocked out first before we grant him a glass jaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyIf you think Pavlik is going to smother Roy and throw 100 punches a round and use that for refence. Pavlik's performance against Hopkins was sad, and he is supposed to be in his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Pavlik isn't so great that he would dominate Roy Jones Jr much less at 175. Pavlik's only chance would be to land that huge right hand how do we even know if Pavlik's power carries all the way up to 175 and Calzaghe at 168 hit Roy with everything he had and Roy also had a bad cut yet was never close to being stopped in that fight but Pavlik moving up two weight classes is gonna stop him by putting him up against the ropes and land the one hail mary shot that's gonna knock him out. Pavlik isn't even gonna do what Johnson did to Roy by smothering him with endless punches, Pavlik is gonna try to cut the ring off and measure Jones so he can land a bit right hand. Pavlik goes into a shell too similar to what people say Roy does when people throw their offense at him and it gets him in trouble at times. The difference is Roy doesn't have to worry about getting outworked if he goes into a shell all he has to do is watch for that right hand. But he can outwork Pavlik when Pavlik goes into a shell just as bad as people say Roy goes into.
I don't get why people acknowledge only Roy's chin and defensive lapses yet ignore Pavliks.
I don't think Pavlik will try to smother Jones like Lacy did. Lacy was perfect, put his head on Jones and threw looping punches, Jones could lay back against the ropes, rattle off flurries and left hooks to the head and body all night. Pavlik will back him into the ropes (or Jones will back himself into the ropes) and Pavlik will try to keep him on the defensive with the jab, attempt to land the right hand, some left hooks to the body. Its predictable but a lot more dangerous than Lacy, Roy at least has to worry about a jab in his face, and a straight right hand from Pavlik and will have to put himself in harm's way more often when he attacks.
And I think you would agree that Hopkins is more difficult sylistically for Pavlik right? I mean the last thing a guy like Pavlik wants is intelligent movement and a guy who's still the best in boxing at taking away a jab. Hopkins couldn't be more wrong for Pavlik. With Roy he still has things to worry about, but he's got a stationary target which is huge and as a result he can set his feet to punch, which is huge.
Pavlik wouldnt be able to effectively pressure Roy for 12 rounds, because he would be eating punches in the process. His gameplan would only work on paper but he doesnt have a plan B. Roy, even at 40, is faster and hits harder than anyone he has faced, aside from Hopkins. The second fastest and hardest puncher was Taylor. Taylor had him hurt, knocked down and baffled from time to time. Even Jeff Lacy would probably agree that Roy is harder to deal with. Pavlik is a bit overrated imo. He fought one slick veteran boxer and lost. Pavlik beats guys that he can find with his punches. He wont beat a great boxer or highly skilled former great boxer. Styles always make fights. I forgot that when I picked lacy to beat Roy, but it almost always is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliJones will always hold a PHD and Masters over Pavlik when it comes to ring smarts and accomplishments.No doubts dude,but this is now.I have very little to base his rebirth on as if we are talking prime Roy here.?His legs are history and he's riding ropes for a reason.He has everything on his terms and pace over last two but Pavlik....in all of his one deminsional & predictable glory is a different animal.And I just dont think Roy can deal with solid pressure from top guys and certainly roll with a straight puncher,no matter what angle or demension they come from.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomBoomWhat it comes down to is the type of punch that hurts Jones. Jones may not be what he used to be, but his eyes are still very good. A predictable fighter has never beat him. Johnson, Tarver, Calzaghe, all got to him with punches he didnt see coming. All these guys used odd angles, Pavlik throw basic punches. He would see Pavliks punches coming and take them on the gloves and forearms. Roys defence isnt great but it works well for guys wo through textbook punches. The punches Roy gets hit with come around his gloves. Also foot placement is key. Pavlik is not fast on his feet and Roy would not let him set his feet to get off his power punches. He would stay a step ahead every time because he is a superior technitian and knows his range as good as anyone and can command the center of the ring even at 40. He is still strong enough, and stronger than Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Jones just fought two punching bags and people are comparing Kelly to those punching bags and are saying what Hopkins did to Pavlik Jones could do UTTER NONSENSE Roy would be crazy to get in the ring with an elite puncher far less a world class puncher
I'm pretty sure there was points in the fight Hopkins had Pavlik on jelly legs with a left uppercut in the 2nd round.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHHopkins hit Pavlik flush all night and never once had him seriously hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Also, comparing Pavlik to Lacy is utterly ridiculous.
Watch the Hopkins fight Pavlik goes into such a bad defensive shell in the center of the ring when you open up offensively Roy would have a field day with him. Pavlik isn't the kind of person that throws a bunch of punches around and he gets hit very easily. Roy would beat Pavlik in the same kind of way Hopkins did, Pavlik would take a lot of punches in the center of the ring when Roy opens up offensively and especially at 175 I can see Pavlik getting stopped.
You can call all Roys punches smoke and mirrors if you want, tell that to Lacy's face, if you can still recognize it
The main thing is everyone talks about how Roy will back into the ropes and what Pavlik will do and they talk about how stationary Lacy was. But they ignore that Pavlik is just as stationary when people open up offensively on him and do you think he could afford to do that with Roy at 175? What we did see in the Lacy fight is that no one can afford to just stand still and not throw with Roy, well thats exactly what Pavlik does when someone opens up offensively on him so why are people ignoring the things Pavlik does as his foil but they only talk about Roy backing into the ropes being his. It's not like Pavlik would be completely fine going into a defensive earmuffs shell against Roy in the center of the ring either.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFanFirst, LOL at the last line, all people do on here is talk about Pavlik's defensive lapses. His chin, meh, its not the best in the world but he always recovers, I think he should at least be knocked out first before we grant him a glass jaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyIf you think Pavlik is going to smother Roy and throw 100 punches a round and use that for refence. Pavlik's performance against Hopkins was sad, and he is supposed to be in his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Pavlik isn't so great that he would dominate Roy Jones Jr much less at 175. Pavlik's only chance would be to land that huge right hand how do we even know if Pavlik's power carries all the way up to 175 and Calzaghe at 168 hit Roy with everything he had and Roy also had a bad cut yet was never close to being stopped in that fight but Pavlik moving up two weight classes is gonna stop him by putting him up against the ropes and land the one hail mary shot that's gonna knock him out. Pavlik isn't even gonna do what Johnson did to Roy by smothering him with endless punches, Pavlik is gonna try to cut the ring off and measure Jones so he can land a bit right hand. Pavlik goes into a shell too similar to what people say Roy does when people throw their offense at him and it gets him in trouble at times. The difference is Roy doesn't have to worry about getting outworked if he goes into a shell all he has to do is watch for that right hand. But he can outwork Pavlik when Pavlik goes into a shell just as bad as people say Roy goes into.
I don't get why people acknowledge only Roy's chin and defensive lapses yet ignore Pavliks.
I don't think Pavlik will try to smother Jones like Lacy did. Lacy was perfect, put his head on Jones and threw looping punches, Jones could lay back against the ropes, rattle off flurries and left hooks to the head and body all night. Pavlik will back him into the ropes (or Jones will back himself into the ropes) and Pavlik will try to keep him on the defensive with the jab, attempt to land the right hand, some left hooks to the body. Its predictable but a lot more dangerous than Lacy, Roy at least has to worry about a jab in his face, and a straight right hand from Pavlik and will have to put himself in harm's way more often when he attacks.
And I think you would agree that Hopkins is more difficult sylistically for Pavlik right? I mean the last thing a guy like Pavlik wants is intelligent movement and a guy who's still the best in boxing at taking away a jab. Hopkins couldn't be more wrong for Pavlik. With Roy he still has things to worry about, but he's got a stationary target which is huge and as a result he can set his feet to punch, which is huge.
I wasn't aware that I had said anything about Jones' punches, thanks for the info :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyI'm pretty sure there was points in the fight Hopkins had Pavlik on jelly legs with a left uppercut in the 2nd round.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHHopkins hit Pavlik flush all night and never once had him seriously hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Also, comparing Pavlik to Lacy is utterly ridiculous.
Watch the Hopkins fight Pavlik goes into such a bad defensive shell in the center of the ring when you open up offensively Roy would have a field day with him. Pavlik isn't the kind of person that throws a bunch of punches around and he gets hit very easily. Roy would beat Pavlik in the same kind of way Hopkins did, Pavlik would take a lot of punches in the center of the ring when Roy opens up offensively and especially at 175 I can see Pavlik getting stopped.
You can call all Roys punches smoke and mirrors if you want, tell that to Lacy's face, if you can still recognize it
Hopkins may have stunned Pavlik, but he never once had him on "queer street" in my recollection.
sorry that was towards oumafanQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHI wasn't aware that I had said anything about Jones' punches, thanks for the info :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyI'm pretty sure there was points in the fight Hopkins had Pavlik on jelly legs with a left uppercut in the 2nd round.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Watch the Hopkins fight Pavlik goes into such a bad defensive shell in the center of the ring when you open up offensively Roy would have a field day with him. Pavlik isn't the kind of person that throws a bunch of punches around and he gets hit very easily. Roy would beat Pavlik in the same kind of way Hopkins did, Pavlik would take a lot of punches in the center of the ring when Roy opens up offensively and especially at 175 I can see Pavlik getting stopped.
You can call all Roys punches smoke and mirrors if you want, tell that to Lacy's face, if you can still recognize it
No problem, I just didn't understand why it appeared to be directed at me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestysorry that was towards oumafanQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHI wasn't aware that I had said anything about Jones' punches, thanks for the info :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Pavlik's power was gone at 168. At 174 he'd really be done, roy would stop him late. Pavlik made Bhop's hands look like meldrick taylor.. Roy would look like E.Honda from street fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Lets not base anything on the Lacy fight because anyone could have looked good against Jeff.....I think Kid Thunder is fighting him next and is the clear Vegas favorite 50-1.......
Jones is too timid from big shots these days....Fighting scared is dangerous because you are tense and the KO is easier to score.....
Kelly would be patient early and give Roy more respect then need be but by the 5th he would start to open up and score a KO
Are you serious? Watch the fight again. In the 12th, Pavlik could have been stopped.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHHopkins hit Pavlik flush all night and never once had him seriously hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Also, comparing Pavlik to Lacy is utterly ridiculous.
Score a kayo at 174? I doubt it..he looked like shit at 168. He was super slow...his abilities are maxed at 160...Roy would make him look like clinton woods even at 40. Besides once Kelly loses to PW...he'll be gone for a while and there will be no more talk of this hypothetical Pavlik-Jones match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
You're completely wrong. The only time Pavlik was hurt at all was in the opening 30 seconds of the round, he clinched and recovered. Even when he got buzzed, Pavlik still had his legs and his wits about him. There was no point in the 12th where the fight could have legitimately been stopped unless you're saying he shouldn't have been allowed to come out for the 12th round because of the punishment he had taken throughout the fight, something else I would disagree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAre you serious? Watch the fight again. In the 12th, Pavlik could have been stopped.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHHopkins hit Pavlik flush all night and never once had him seriously hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Also, comparing Pavlik to Lacy is utterly ridiculous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXVuq...2E7B2C&index=8At what point of round 12 should he have been stopped?