Top Amateurs need to start faster

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/fotos/tszyu35335533.jpg

By holmcall


... I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fighter more ready for the pros - -Dan Birmingham singing the praises of Matt Korobov

Wilder needs someone that can stay in there with him long enough for him to develop his skills, and frankly a D class opponent that folds in the first minute of action isn’t going to get the job done --Jim Dower (Boxing News)


Teddy Atlas is absolutely correct. Too many of these Olympians and other quality amateurs who have over 100 fights are wasting their time (and our’s) by fighting low level opposition. However, he also needs to apply that viewpoint to “one of the greatest amateurs of all time” (reportedly his words). When 2000 and 2004 Olympic gold medalist Guillermo Rigondeaux (who had over 400 amateur fights), beat Juan Noriega in his pro debut, it was a disgraceful mismatch. When he followed this up by stopping “Big Bob” Guillen, it was even worse. Neither fight proved anything. The 28 year old Cuban will need to step up rapidly if he is to become champion in a very tough division—something that fellow Cuban Yuriorkis Gamboa has gone about doing the right way; he has set the standard. It’s now up to the other not-so-young Cubans to follow suit.

Heavyweight Deontay Wilder is 7-0 with 7 KOs, but his opposition has been as bad as any I have ever seen. He has fought 905 seconds in seven fights. That’s about 2 minutes per fight. The 6’7” 215 pound Wilder is not doing himself any good by this.

Russian Matt Korobov beat Mario Evangelista (1-1-1) in his pro debut. Swell. Now he needs to start showcasing his amateur record of 310-11 against better competition. Benjamin Diaz (10-2-2) is a start; let’s build on it.

Danny Jacobs

One of many things I like about Brooklyn’s Danny Jacobs is that he is on a fast track. With his celebrated amateur record, the “Golden Child” has wasted no time in moving to an 18-0 record. But it appears that early on, he may have replaced quality with quantity and frequency. Jacobs had ten fights in 2008 and 5 so far in 2009. Finally, however, he is now fighting at a level more attuned to his legendary amateur accomplishments. With consecutive wins over tough Ishe Smith (21-3), George Walton, and the rugged “Midnight Stalker,” Michale Walker, Danny has stepped up, but surely he could have done this sooner and fought say someone like Jose Varela earlier in his career. Fighting designated losers’ helped pad his record, but did little to help him. I had him pegged as a power puncher, but in reality that was because he was knocking out poor opponents. Atlas was correct when he noted this on ESPN during the Varela fight even though Jacobs won by a KO.

Kostya Tszyu

The great Tszyu retired in 2005 with a deceptively inactive 31-2 record--deceptive because he had gone up against stiff opposition virtually from the very start of his pro career. In fact, he beat Juan LaPorte in his fourth fight. His second pro opponent had 33 fights.

Oh yes, he compiled an amateur record of 259-11 before turning pro, but unlike so many top amateurs today (and particularly some of the Cubans), he hit the road running and dispensed with walk over fights—and that’s the point of this thread.

I totally agree!

Managers, Promoters, and the fighters themselves need to get on the ball and test themselves in every fight. It isn't right that it takes guys so long to get up to speed! Wilder might need time to get settled but there are better guys he can fight than what he has been getting in the ring with, 900 seconds of fighting doesn't teach him anything and it doesn't allow him to get comfortable going longer rounds.

Agree absolutely.
Obviously for promoters, managers etc its all about money. They know they can make a few quid by padding a guy's record and maneuvering him into some sort of title shot. IMO, if they had faith in thier fighter they would push them much earlier. What promoters need to realise is that this tactic will eventually COST them money. For them to make money, boxing needs to thrive and maintain popular support. A succession of dud fights does nothing for the popularity of the sport, and thus the pot of money available in boxing will decrease. They have a short-termist approach which whilst it might make them some quick cash it is certainly not a sustainable model. Also, the casual fan's obsession with the perfect record adds to the promoters desire to keep feeding their prospects human punch bags. People need to remember that a loss, even at an early stage in the career, is not a disaster.

To be fair Rigondeaux is stepping it up heavily in his next fight, a 10 round contest with Giovanni Andrade who fought Juan Manuel Lopez just 2 years ago. Should he win this I have no doubt he'll step up again. I'm not a huge Rigondeaux fan like Taeth but he does now appear to be doing his bit so fair play to him.

Jacobs seems to have come on pretty well to me, I was very impressed with his performance live against Walker, particularly as he'd only taken on short notice an opponent originally scheduled for James Kirkland.

I agree about Wilder though, he's fighting guys who tomato cans dismiss as not challenging enough. Korobov also seems to have done too much to fast, I thought he was lucky to get away with it against Loren Myers who had him buzzed & even Top Rank PPV had Korobov drawing, so he obviously got a shutout. Whilst Diaz on paper appeared a step-up, in reality he was actually a weaker fighter who had built his record up against 1st timers & serial losers in Mexico.

Here in the UK, we've got Tyson Fury & Derek Chisora (both of whom I detest), but who to be fair have taken tough fights from the get go.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

To be fair Rigondeaux is stepping it up heavily in his next fight, a 10 round contest with Giovanni Andrade who fought Juan Manuel Lopez just 2 years ago. Should he win this I have no doubt he'll step up again. I'm not a huge Rigondeaux fan like Taeth but he does now appear to be doing his bit so fair play to him.

Jacobs seems to have come on pretty well to me, I was very impressed with his performance live against Walker, particularly as he'd only taken on short notice an opponent originally scheduled for James Kirkland.

I agree about Wilder though, he's fighting guys who tomato cans dismiss as not challenging enough. Korobov also seems to have done too much to fast, I thought he was lucky to get away with it against Loren Myers who had him buzzed & even Top Rank PPV had Korobov drawing, so he obviously got a shutout. Whilst Diaz on paper appeared a step-up, in reality he was actually a weaker fighter who had built his record up against 1st timers & serial losers in Mexico.

Here in the UK, we've got Tyson Fury & Derek Chisora (both of whom I detest), but who to be fair have taken tough fights from the get go.

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A careful review of Giovanni's record tells the story. Eveytime he stepped up, he either got waxed or lost by decision. Hell, JML iced him in a matter of seconds. I remember Johnny Tapia starching him abou 13 years ago. He fights and KOs grim opposition. On paper, it looks like a step up. In reality, he will be iced within two minutes. He also fights a lot of the same opponents multiple times. He has also fought outside of Brazil and is 4-10 whil doing so. The guy is as done as burnt toast insodar as Guillermo is concerned.

I disagree about Wilder, he's a strange case, he didn't even have many amateur fights If I remember correctly and he's obviously raw as hell. Maybe he should be in a bit tougher but if he's in tougher it should be with just slightly tougher cans, he's not ready and is learning on the job. You just can't compare him to a Kostya Tsyzu who was incomparably more ready to be a pro than a guy like Wilder.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

To be fair Rigondeaux is stepping it up heavily in his next fight, a 10 round contest with Giovanni Andrade who fought Juan Manuel Lopez just 2 years ago. Should he win this I have no doubt he'll step up again. I'm not a huge Rigondeaux fan like Taeth but he does now appear to be doing his bit so fair play to him.

Jacobs seems to have come on pretty well to me, I was very impressed with his performance live against Walker, particularly as he'd only taken on short notice an opponent originally scheduled for James Kirkland.

I agree about Wilder though, he's fighting guys who tomato cans dismiss as not challenging enough. Korobov also seems to have done too much to fast, I thought he was lucky to get away with it against Loren Myers who had him buzzed & even Top Rank PPV had Korobov drawing, so he obviously got a shutout. Whilst Diaz on paper appeared a step-up, in reality he was actually a weaker fighter who had built his record up against 1st timers & serial losers in Mexico.

Here in the UK, we've got Tyson Fury & Derek Chisora (both of whom I detest), but who to be fair have taken tough fights from the get go.

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A careful review of Giovanni's record tells the story. Eveytime he stepped up, he either got waxed or lost by decision. Hell, JML iced him in a matter of seconds. I remember Johnny Tapia starching him abou 13 years ago. He fights and KOs grim opposition. On paper, it looks like a step up. In reality, he will be iced within two minutes. He also fights a lot of the same opponents multiple times. He has also fought outside of Brazil and is 4-10 whil doing so. The guy is as done as burnt toast insodar as Guillermo is concerned.

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I'm aware of that, however regardless of that he's still a difficult opponent for only a 3rd professional fight. I've no doubt Rigondeaux beats him & handily, but the number of rounds (10) also makes it an impressive fight, given it being only his 3rd.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

To be fair Rigondeaux is stepping it up heavily in his next fight, a 10 round contest with Giovanni Andrade who fought Juan Manuel Lopez just 2 years ago. Should he win this I have no doubt he'll step up again. I'm not a huge Rigondeaux fan like Taeth but he does now appear to be doing his bit so fair play to him.

Jacobs seems to have come on pretty well to me, I was very impressed with his performance live against Walker, particularly as he'd only taken on short notice an opponent originally scheduled for James Kirkland.

I agree about Wilder though, he's fighting guys who tomato cans dismiss as not challenging enough. Korobov also seems to have done too much to fast, I thought he was lucky to get away with it against Loren Myers who had him buzzed & even Top Rank PPV had Korobov drawing, so he obviously got a shutout. Whilst Diaz on paper appeared a step-up, in reality he was actually a weaker fighter who had built his record up against 1st timers & serial losers in Mexico.

Here in the UK, we've got Tyson Fury & Derek Chisora (both of whom I detest), but who to be fair have taken tough fights from the get go.

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A careful review of Giovanni's record tells the story. Eveytime he stepped up, he either got waxed or lost by decision. Hell, JML iced him in a matter of seconds. I remember Johnny Tapia starching him abou 13 years ago. He fights and KOs grim opposition. On paper, it looks like a step up. In reality, he will be iced within two minutes. He also fights a lot of the same opponents multiple times. He has also fought outside of Brazil and is 4-10 whil doing so. The guy is as done as burnt toast insodar as Guillermo is concerned.

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I'm aware of that, however regardless of that he's still a difficult opponent for only a 3rd professional fight. I've no doubt Rigondeaux beats him & handily, but the number of rounds (10) also makes it an impressive fight, given it being only his 3rd.

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Well, I'd have to disagree with due respect. The Cuban to me is going in there with God knows how many anature bouts and Gold medals in different tournaments. Andrade is dreadful. See this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OCXJlMa0Kc

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

To be fair Rigondeaux is stepping it up heavily in his next fight, a 10 round contest with Giovanni Andrade who fought Juan Manuel Lopez just 2 years ago. Should he win this I have no doubt he'll step up again. I'm not a huge Rigondeaux fan like Taeth but he does now appear to be doing his bit so fair play to him.

Jacobs seems to have come on pretty well to me, I was very impressed with his performance live against Walker, particularly as he'd only taken on short notice an opponent originally scheduled for James Kirkland.

I agree about Wilder though, he's fighting guys who tomato cans dismiss as not challenging enough. Korobov also seems to have done too much to fast, I thought he was lucky to get away with it against Loren Myers who had him buzzed & even Top Rank PPV had Korobov drawing, so he obviously got a shutout. Whilst Diaz on paper appeared a step-up, in reality he was actually a weaker fighter who had built his record up against 1st timers & serial losers in Mexico.

Here in the UK, we've got Tyson Fury & Derek Chisora (both of whom I detest), but who to be fair have taken tough fights from the get go.

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A careful review of Giovanni's record tells the story. Eveytime he stepped up, he either got waxed or lost by decision. Hell, JML iced him in a matter of seconds. I remember Johnny Tapia starching him abou 13 years ago. He fights and KOs grim opposition. On paper, it looks like a step up. In reality, he will be iced within two minutes. He also fights a lot of the same opponents multiple times. He has also fought outside of Brazil and is 4-10 whil doing so. The guy is as done as burnt toast insodar as Guillermo is concerned.

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I'm aware of that, however regardless of that he's still a difficult opponent for only a 3rd professional fight. I've no doubt Rigondeaux beats him & handily, but the number of rounds (10) also makes it an impressive fight, given it being only his 3rd.

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Really he's not. One look at his record says it all. He's a D level fighter who's bulid up his win total by beating fellow D and F leval fighters. I would not consider him a step up

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by holmcall

A careful review of Giovanni's record tells the story. Eveytime he stepped up, he either got waxed or lost by decision. Hell, JML iced him in a matter of seconds. I remember Johnny Tapia starching him abou 13 years ago. He fights and KOs grim opposition. On paper, it looks like a step up. In reality, he will be iced within two minutes. He also fights a lot of the same opponents multiple times. He has also fought outside of Brazil and is 4-10 whil doing so. The guy is as done as burnt toast insodar as Guillermo is concerned.

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I'm aware of that, however regardless of that he's still a difficult opponent for only a 3rd professional fight. I've no doubt Rigondeaux beats him & handily, but the number of rounds (10) also makes it an impressive fight, given it being only his 3rd.

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Really he's not. One look at his record says it all. He's a D level fighter who's bulid up his win total by beating fellow D and F leval fighters. I would not consider him a step up

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Fair enough, but I still think that fighting 10 rounds in only his 3rd pro fight is worthy of credit. On another note, I was doing the boxrec thing & saw Rigondeaux's last tomato can beat the only man to ever beat Nonito Donaire. So following Hatton-hugger logic (Hatton KO'd Castillo who Mayweather only closely beat) that must mean that Rigondeaux is now pound for pound top 10. Taeth will be happy ;D

:appl::appl:

The guy's about to have his third fight ;D

Three fights. 3. Who cares what a guy does in his first three fights?

I agree completely. I see some of these amateurs like Demetrius Andrade or Danny O'Connor and look at the guys they are fighting and that makes me not waste my time to watch them, because the result of the fight is already determined before the first bell. Tszyu, De La Hoya, among other top amateurs fought stiff opposition from the start and that only helped them to grow as fighters. Getting used to fighting no-hoper only makes a fighter get lazy or complacent.

Kostya was born for the pros. He was a natural finisher and went after his man more than points so I think the transition came more naturally to him as well.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

I'm aware of that, however regardless of that he's still a difficult opponent for only a 3rd professional fight. I've no doubt Rigondeaux beats him & handily, but the number of rounds (10) also makes it an impressive fight, given it being only his 3rd.

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Really he's not. One look at his record says it all. He's a D level fighter who's bulid up his win total by beating fellow D and F leval fighters. I would not consider him a step up

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Fair enough, but I still think that fighting 10 rounds in only his 3rd pro fight is worthy of credit. On another note, I was doing the boxrec thing & saw Rigondeaux's last tomato can beat the only man to ever beat Nonito Donaire. So following Hatton-hugger logic (Hatton KO'd Castillo who Mayweather only closely beat) that must mean that Rigondeaux is now pound for pound top 10. Taeth will be happy ;D

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Sorry what has Rigondeaux done so far to not prove him to be a future top boxer in the sport? After watching him, and all his fights that are on youtube, how can you not be convinced of how good he is? Or do we have to weight for him to beat guys like Vazquez, JML, Marquez, and Gamboa? Because it will happen in the next couple of years.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Kostya was born for the pros. He was a natural finisher and went after his man more than points so I think the transition came more naturally to him as well.

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You are bang on! Tszyu was fucking great to watch!

I think the boxer and his team need to establish a four year plan to fight for a title. Each step along the way should be a slow improvement in quality of opposition and a test against various styles.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Really he's not. One look at his record says it all. He's a D level fighter who's bulid up his win total by beating fellow D and F leval fighters. I would not consider him a step up

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Fair enough, but I still think that fighting 10 rounds in only his 3rd pro fight is worthy of credit. On another note, I was doing the boxrec thing & saw Rigondeaux's last tomato can beat the only man to ever beat Nonito Donaire. So following Hatton-hugger logic (Hatton KO'd Castillo who Mayweather only closely beat) that must mean that Rigondeaux is now pound for pound top 10. Taeth will be happy ;D

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Sorry what has Rigondeaux done so far to not prove him to be a future top boxer in the sport? After watching him, and all his fights that are on youtube, how can you not be convinced of how good he is? Or do we have to weight for him to beat guys like Vazquez, JML, Marquez, and Gamboa? Because it will happen in the next couple of years.

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:vd:

wilder has little amateur experience.

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Originally Posted by Zelley

I think the boxer and his team need to establish a four year plan to fight for a title. Each step along the way should be a slow improvement in quality of opposition and a test against various styles.

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Like Russ Abner is doing with Canadian David Lemuiex (16-0 with 16 kos). That is agreat model to follow IMO.

you forgot to space between 'a' and 'great'. otherwise, good call holmcall.

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Originally Posted by jokaleras

you forgot to space between 'a' and 'great'. otherwise, good call holmcall.

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AAaargh!

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

The guy's about to have his third fight ;D

Three fights. 3. Who cares what a guy does in his first three fights?

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When people claim your the greatest amateur fighter ever and a for sure pound for pound fighter it matters

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by Zelley

I think the boxer and his team need to establish a four year plan to fight for a title. Each step along the way should be a slow improvement in quality of opposition and a test against various styles.

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Like Russ Abner is doing with Canadian David Lemuiex (16-0 with 16 kos). That is agreat model to follow IMO.

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I've had my eye on Lemieux since he turned pro.

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post505336

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post505361

I think he was 4-0 at that time

I think we can say Tavoris Cloud has moved along quite nicely. He could have EASILY been in over his head vs Clinton Woods this early in his career.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I think we can say Tavoris Cloud has moved along quite nicely. He could have EASILY been in over his head vs Clinton Woods this early in his career.

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I agree. His team has handled him very well. He comes to fight a full 12 rounds.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I think we can say Tavoris Cloud has moved along quite nicely. He could have EASILY been in over his head vs Clinton Woods this early in his career.

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I agree. His team has handled him very well. He comes to fight a full 12 rounds.

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Yeah, it's surprising a pure power puncher like him that is as green as he is can make it 12 without having too much trouble. Some power fighters tucker out in the late rounds, Cloud was still doing good work late in the fight...good for him and his trainers! Now if only he could make someone miss with some punches

They just force feed alot of these young guys to us.You do not have to air every single fight of a guys first 5,6,7 contests and brand them the next coming of Leonard,Ali and other greats.It has really gone off of the deep end last couple of years & way to much emphasis on glossy amateur records.These are the padding years and working the kinks out with very low level comp who fall over with eagerness,sort of like watching sausage being made.If the networks-promoters insist on the big push and want us to believe...they need to require sterner and breathing opponents to gauge them by.

OK how can you possibly argue that Danny Jacobs is being brought up to slow? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? He's less then 2 years into his career with 18 fights, he's been fighting pretty much nonstop and he's 22 years old! 22 years old! Do you know how young that is? For him you just want to have him out there learning on the job and let his body fully develop. Shit man not everyone is Tszyu or De La Hoya.

With the Cubans I can see your point, with the exception of Gamboa who is younger then Solis and Rigondeaux. Solis has been a bit of a dud as far as his competition goes, you would like to see him making more strides in what is seen as a down heavyweight division. I think he's kind of just got stuck and has been going through the motions in Germany earning a healthy living probably. That's the thing we have to remember about Cubans is that the switch from Cuba to the US requires just as much adjusting then making the switch from amateur to pro. It's a lot but Rigondeaux is a special talent I wouldn't think it will take to long to get the ball rolling.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

The guy's about to have his third fight ;D

Three fights. 3. Who cares what a guy does in his first three fights?

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When people claim your the greatest amateur fighter ever and a for sure pound for pound fighter it matters

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No, I still don't think so, its just nitpicking to me. Its three fights :cwm13: In fact I'm proposing a new rule, no one can complain about who somebody fights in his first three fights. I doubt it will pass. His fourth fight though is fair game :p

You like what they are doing with David Lemieux but not Danny Jacobs? That is a MASSIVE contradiction.

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Originally Posted by amat

You like what they are doing with David Lemieux but not Danny Jacobs? That is a MASSIVE contradiction.

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I know. I admit it is. But David is on a strategic plan laid out by Russ Abner and his team. He is 17-0 with 17 KO's. He is being brought along very carefully because he is young and did not have the great amature career that Jacobs had. Look, with Jacobs, he has now found a groove. Also, his frequency of fights has been superb. It's just that his early wins made it appear that he was a KO artist which he is not. I truly believe David is. Time will tell.

Your point, however, is taken. :banghead: