Give the Klitschko's their just due

Both of them would be champs, if not serious contenders, in ANY HW era. Its a shame they take such flack from most boxing "experts" because its just assumed the HW division is terrible.

I think anyone who knows boxing would know that guys with that size, speed, strength, and skill would be a tough match for any HW fighter that ever lived.

In fact I would pick them to give a whipping to a lot of consensus top 10 guys. They definatly deserve a lot more respect than what they are given. For two brothers to rule a division like this is remarkable.

yeh very true... they are safety first but this is boxing.. your in there to win, without gettin pummeled if possible..

They fight in a manner which makes their abilities have more effect while covering up their flaws. I've always thought they had the potential to be dominant champions, it's nice to see them acheive it.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Both of them would be champs, if not serious contenders, in ANY HW era. Its a shame they take such flack from most boxing "experts" because its just assumed the HW division is terrible.

I think anyone who knows boxing would know that guys with that size, speed, strength, and skill would be a tough match for any HW fighter that ever lived.

In fact I would pick them to give a whipping to a lot of consensus top 10 guys. They definatly deserve a lot more respect than what they are given. For two brothers to rule a division like this is remarkable.

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Vitali would be a world champ in any era of the sport. The guy is technically the perfect fighter and just seems unbeatable.

Only heavy of the last 15 years that beats vitali is lennox and maybe even a prime early 90s holyfield.

Just such a shame his legacy will be tarnished by the fact he never got fight great fighters:mad:

I really wish they had more competition or better competition, both brothers will fight very green opponents as their mandatories next. Kevin Johnson, who may be 30 but he's never fought a top 20 heavyweight much less a top 10 or top 5 or top 2 heavyweight and Eddie Chambers who may be a little better prepared but he's well undersized and under gunned.

And after those fights....the winner of Haye-Valuev maybe, Alex Povetkin, probably an old veteran here and there Oleg Maskaev, Lance Whittaker, John Ruiz.....there's just not flashy names out there that don't need seasoning. Odlainer Solis needs more fights...Denis Boytsov doesn't seem to have much of a chance.

I just wish there was SOMEBODY who could create some doubt about who is going to win and how.

Yeah that was a good showing yesterday. Since Lewis vacated the division, they have been the dominant forces in the division. Interesting that there is now some talk of a possible matchup between the brothers. That would be a fight from what people have said about there previous sparring sessions.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I really wish they had more competition or better competition, both brothers will fight very green opponents as their mandatories next. Kevin Johnson, who may be 30 but he's never fought a top 20 heavyweight much less a top 10 or top 5 or top 2 heavyweight and Eddie Chambers who may be a little better prepared but he's well undersized and under gunned.

And after those fights....the winner of Haye-Valuev maybe, Alex Povetkin, probably an old veteran here and there Oleg Maskaev, Lance Whittaker, John Ruiz.....there's just not flashy names out there that don't need seasoning. Odlainer Solis needs more fights...Denis Boytsov doesn't seem to have much of a chance.

I just wish there was SOMEBODY who could create some doubt about who is going to win and how.

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Theres only 2 guys that spring to mind and thats povetkin and haye

haye has the power but there are still big question marks as to whether he has the ability to consistently get inside and manage to rough up either brother Likewise povetkin

To beat either guy you need a strategy far beyond just chucking yourself into him and hoping to catch him with something. Lewis was tall enough to not be bothered by vitalis reach and therefore was able to land big. Its gonna take someone who`s at least 6`4, well conditioned with a solid gameplan

I don't think either Povetkin or Haye does anything to either Klitschko. I think in the next couple of years there maybe a return of former challengers to try their hand at beating the Klitschko's.

I have no idea who could seriously challenge Wlad or Vitali....old or young

Agreed. Lewis did his best when he could. I doubt he could repeat that so any come back would be a disaster i'd reckon. Haye is yet to be tested and Povetkin would probably end up like Chris yesterday.

I've been giving Wlad his dues for some time now... Vitali, im still a a little reluctant cause of the whole emeritus b.s but that wasn't his doing i guess...

Both good fighters. I saw Vitali looking a bit uncomfortable when ever Arreola attacked from Vitali's left and i do wonder if a smarter fighter could elaborate on that but really, Vitali has more than superior ring generalship to anyone he's faced, ever.

The Klitschko's are good fighters ,i dont like Wlad think he is boring but it works so there aint no point in putting him self in danger.I like watching Vitali tho think he is more comitted in trying to get his man out of there.

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Originally Posted by bikersk

Agreed. Lewis did his best when he could. I doubt he could repeat that so any come back would be a disaster i'd reckon. Haye is yet to be tested and Povetkin would probably end up like Chris yesterday.

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Lennox gave Vitali all he could handle then some, was winning the last 2 rounds before the stoppage, Lennox of 2 years earlier would have beaten either brother,,,,,,Lennox knew his time was up and to let the younger Brothers Grimm have their time....

Even if Haye has some success early I don't think he could deal with the constant jack hammer blows either Klitschko throws for too long...

A Klitschko jab is the average Hwts power punch,

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Originally Posted by littlebif

The Klitschko's are good fighters ,i dont like Wlad think he is boring but it works so there aint no point in putting him self in danger.I like watching Vitali tho think he is more comitted in trying to get his man out of there.

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Same thoughts here. Wlad bores me with his jab, paw, jab style. It's enough to make me slip into a coma. I actually quite enjoy watching Vitali fight.

Everybody talks about fighters from the past , like foreman , frazier etc but i fail to see how Vitali couldn't have competed with these guys , not to mention he is a monster size wise.

I personally think we dismiss modern HW fighters all to easily , fact is if sprinters and pole vaulters , hammer throwers , weight lifters are all getting faster and stronger respectively. Then how are this new breed of HW worse than the fighters before ?

PS/ there will always be the odd special fighter , but in general , we think Ken Norton for example is better than a David Tua ?

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Everybody talks about fighters from the past , like foreman , frazier etc but i fail to see how Vitali couldn't have competed with these guys , not to mention he is a monster size wise.

I personally think we dismiss modern HW fighters all to easily , fact is if sprinters and pole vaulters , hammer throwers , weight lifters are all getting faster and stronger respectively. Then how are this new breed of HW worse than the fighters before ?

PS/ there will always be the odd special fighter , but in general , we think Ken Norton for example is better than a David Tua ?

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Norton has a claim to having beaten the 2 greatest HWs of all time. Lots of 'ifs and buts', but he certainly beat Ali once , maybe even 3 times and some (not me) think he beat Holmes. Could Tua have don ethat?

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by bikersk

Agreed. Lewis did his best when he could. I doubt he could repeat that so any come back would be a disaster i'd reckon. Haye is yet to be tested and Povetkin would probably end up like Chris yesterday.

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Lennox gave Vitali all he could handle then some, was winning the last 2 rounds before the stoppage, Lennox of 2 years earlier would have beaten either brother,,,,,,Lennox knew his time was up and to let the younger Brothers Grimm have their time....

Even if Haye has some success early I don't think he could deal with the constant jack hammer blows either Klitschko throws for too long...

A Klitschko jab is the average Hwts power punch,

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My arguement is this, who would beat Lennox Lewis in the history of the heavyweight division? I don't rate Lennox as the best heavyweight ever, but I think he beats any other heavyweight in the history of the sport. He's too big, too fast, too coordinated, and he has shown that he does have fighitng spirit.

[quote=BIG H;791877]

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Everybody talks about fighters from the past , like foreman , frazier etc but i fail to see how Vitali couldn't have competed with these guys , not to mention he is a monster size wise.

I personally think we dismiss modern HW fighters all to easily , fact is if sprinters and pole vaulters , hammer throwers , weight lifters are all getting faster and stronger respectively. Then how are this new breed of HW worse than the fighters before ?

PS/ there will always be the odd special fighter , but in general , we think Ken Norton for example is better than a David Tua ?

]

Norton has a claim to having beaten the 2 greatest HWs of all time. Lots of 'ifs and buts', but he certainly beat Ali once , maybe even 3 times and some (not me) think he beat Holmes. Could Tua have don ethat?

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The point im making is fighters at HW are getting to huge sizes and some are also great athletes , improving to being more than just a huge size.
Styles do make fights also , in my opinion Tua would have KOED the dodgy chinned Norton early , does that Make Tua better than Ali ?

PS. Both Norton and Tua were just examples from past and present.

Another double standard is that people bash them because of their safety first, jab-driven style, but seem to forget that the consensus #1 of all time, Muhammad Ali, employed a style just like that in his prime. Ali was a first rate track star.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

My arguement is this, who would beat Lennox Lewis in the history of the heavyweight division? I don't rate Lennox as the best heavyweight ever, but I think he beats any other heavyweight in the history of the sport. He's too big, too fast, too coordinated, and he has shown that he does have fighitng spirit.

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There are two guys I would pick against Lewis, and they are the same two guys I would pick against the Klitchko's.

Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes.

But I agree with your point.

Take Rocky Marciano for example. Consensus top 5 guy of all time, many consider him the greatest, and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would be DESTROYED by Lennox, Wlad or Vitali. Way too small.

[quote=Dark Lord Al;791892]

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Everybody talks about fighters from the past , like foreman , frazier etc but i fail to see how Vitali couldn't have competed with these guys , not to mention he is a monster size wise.

I personally think we dismiss modern HW fighters all to easily , fact is if sprinters and pole vaulters , hammer throwers , weight lifters are all getting faster and stronger respectively. Then how are this new breed of HW worse than the fighters before ?

PS/ there will always be the odd special fighter , but in general , we think Ken Norton for example is better than a David Tua ?

]

Norton has a claim to having beaten the 2 greatest HWs of all time. Lots of 'ifs and buts', but he certainly beat Ali once , maybe even 3 times and some (not me) think he beat Holmes. Could Tua have don ethat?

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The point im making is fighters at HW are getting to huge sizes and some are also great athletes , improving to being more than just a huge size.
Styles do make fights also , in my opinion Tua would have KOED the dodgy chinned Norton early , does that Make Tua better than Ali ?

PS. Both Norton and Tua were just examples from past and present.

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Im sorry but how the hell does anyone seriously believe tua beats norton!!

I fully agree that in certain instances current fighters arent given the same credit as their predeccesors. But Tua beating the great norton??

never in a million years!!

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

Im sorry but how the hell does anyone seriously believe tua beats norton!!

I fully agree that in certain instances current fighters arent given the same credit as their predeccesors. But Tua beating the great norton??

never in a million years!!

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I think it comes down to Norton's track record. Sure he did great against boxers like Holmes and Ali, but it seemed like he got sparked out by all the KO artists he was put up against. Foreman and Shavers put him out with no trouble, and Cooney damn near killed him.

Norton couldn't handle the "go for broke" power punchers...Tua would eat him alive....first figuratively and then litterally

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Norton couldn't handle the "go for broke" power punchers...Tua would eat him alive....first figuratively and then litterally

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Agreed. Norton's crab style of blocking is not suited to stand up to Tua's power. David has scary power

I would agree that the Klitschkos would be competitive in any era. They are supremely conditioned and can punch.......

I dont have a problem with their style and enjoy watching them both. At least when the Klitschkos fight they fight the top guys in the division, they inflict massive punishment on their opponents and most of the time get them out of there........

People will speak more highly of them when they retire....that is just the nature of people......

heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.

the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.

Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.

I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.

the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.

Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.

I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.

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Those are fighters you call technicians?

This is not even worth debating after thinking about it

yeah. wanna know what distinguishes them? the ability to fight inside. to pivot, slip and duck shots, counterpunch, deliver crisp combinations. Bowe resembled a young Toney at times.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

Im sorry but how the hell does anyone seriously believe tua beats norton!!

I fully agree that in certain instances current fighters arent given the same credit as their predeccesors. But Tua beating the great norton??

never in a million years!!

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I think it comes down to Norton's track record. Sure he did great against boxers like Holmes and Ali, but it seemed like he got sparked out by all the KO artists he was put up against. Foreman and Shavers put him out with no trouble, and Cooney damn near killed him.

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This is exactly my point , also i do not consider Norton a "GREAT".

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.

the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.

Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.

I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.

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I don't see how you can say Wlad and Lennox Lewis aren't great tacticians. Lennox was a terrific counter puncher, who had an amazing arsenal and leverage for a guy his size. He was a better tactician than Bowe, and along with his power and athleticism led to Bowe not wanting any part of him.

Wladimir does get by on the best jab I've seen maybe in any weight class, but its hard to dominate opponents with basically one punch regardless of how big you are, There are a lot of heavywieghts bigger than Wladimir, but I don't think any heavyweight has ever used their size more effectively than him, but part of that isn't just the size, Wladimir is often bigger, stronger, and faster than his opponents, but he throws punches properly, and defensively he has become very good at not getting hit, he is cheap defensively, but it works very effectively, he is too quick and tall on the outside and he holds on the inside.

I know people are going to get mad because Larry Holmes, Ali, Lennox Lewis, Sonny Liston, Joe Louis all had truly terrific jabs, but I haven't seen anyone have both the speed to land the jab at will and more importantly the power to truly use it to dictate range, confuse an opponent, and truly take the opponent heart away from the fight.

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

yeah. wanna know what distinguishes them? the ability to fight inside. to pivot, slip and duck shots, counterpunch, deliver crisp combinations. Bowe resembled a young Toney at times.

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Watch young Lewis against Morrison among others, he was great at fighting at all distances. Lennox always was a great counter puncher, I don't think there is any one example better than the punch he landed on Rahman in their rematch, and a right hand he landed on Tyson near the end. Young Wladimir alon with Lennox both threw impressive combinations. I think Steward made them safer fighters, and the offensive flare as a result had to be extinguished, but its like saying that Mayweather isn't a great tactician because he doesn't throw combinations very often. Using your height is a skill in and of itself, and Bowe would have had an easier time with Holyfield IMO if he was more of a tactician.

I think Vitali is the best heavyweight by far and would be one of the best in any era. Vitali has never even been knocked down or seriously buzzed so a fighter would have to somehow outbox him. Vitali's 2 losses were due to shoulder injury and a very bad cut. But Wladimir would have his troubles in certain eras with certain guys because of his not so durable chin. Wlad has been KOed by 3 much lesser opponents and almost a 4th(Samuel Peter). Imagine if he was actually in an era of good heavyweight fighters. Due to that he now fights tentative. Wlad has the ability to be a great fighter in all eras but his chin would probably fail him against guys such as Shavers, Tua, Tyson, Foreman, Ibeabuchi and probably a guy or two who are lesser opponents but throw everything into their punches.

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.

the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.

Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.

I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.

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Well you've just outed yourself as being completely ignorant about heavyweights.

If you don't like the heavyweights then why post in a thread about them?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

They fight in a manner which makes their abilities have more effect while covering up their flaws. I've always thought they had the potential to be dominant champions, it's nice to see them acheive it.

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Right and that is what great fighters do. I completely agree though that they would be dominant in any era of boxing. Not necessarily the best in any era, but dominant.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

yeah. wanna know what distinguishes them? the ability to fight inside. to pivot, slip and duck shots, counterpunch, deliver crisp combinations. Bowe resembled a young Toney at times.

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Watch young Lewis against Morrison among others, he was great at fighting at all distances. Lennox always was a great counter puncher, I don't think there is any one example better than the punch he landed on Rahman in their rematch, and a right hand he landed on Tyson near the end. Young Wladimir alon with Lennox both threw impressive combinations. I think Steward made them safer fighters, and the offensive flare as a result had to be extinguished, but its like saying that Mayweather isn't a great tactician because he doesn't throw combinations very often. Using your height is a skill in and of itself, and Bowe would have had an easier time with Holyfield IMO if he was more of a tactician.

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Good Post, Taeth. Lennox was the man.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.

the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.

Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.

I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.

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Well you've just outed yourself as being completely ignorant about heavyweights.

If you don't like the heavyweights then why post in a thread about them?

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alright. your Bowe collection no doubt consists of his two fights with Golota.

prime riddick bowe would've given a prime lennox lewis a boxing lesson.

Bowe didn't train under Futch without being taught advanced skills. Futch's said he saw in Bowe one of the greatest talents the HW division has ever seen. that's coming from the greatest boxing mind of all time. i'll take his word.

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.

the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.

Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.

I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.

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Well you've just outed yourself as being completely ignorant about heavyweights.

If you don't like the heavyweights then why post in a thread about them?

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alright. your Bowe collection no doubt consists of his two fights with Golota.

prime riddick bowe would've given a prime lennox lewis a boxing lesson.

Bowe didn't train under Futch without being taught advanced skills. Futch's said he saw in Bowe one of the greatest talents the HW division has ever seen. that's coming from the greatest boxing mind of all time. i'll take his word.

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Bowe had chin issues , Lewis , or Tyson or any puncher would have beaten him.
He had wonderful skill for a big man , but chin problems , someone like Vitali would crush him prime for prime.IMO

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.

the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.

Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.

I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.

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Well you've just outed yourself as being completely ignorant about heavyweights.

If you don't like the heavyweights then why post in a thread about them?

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alright. your Bowe collection no doubt consists of his two fights with Golota.

prime riddick bowe would've given a prime lennox lewis a boxing lesson.

Bowe didn't train under Futch without being taught advanced skills. Futch's said he saw in Bowe one of the greatest talents the HW division has ever seen. that's coming from the greatest boxing mind of all time. i'll take his word.

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Its a shame that Bowe dropped hs arse and wouldnt fight Lewis, then we would have seen the evidence rather than have to speculate on a fantasy match up.

We don't have to speculate, Lewis laid out Bowe as an amatuer

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Originally Posted by sumkalambay

yeah. wanna know what distinguishes them? the ability to fight inside. to pivot, slip and duck shots, counterpunch, deliver crisp combinations. Bowe resembled a young Toney at times.

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Lennox was a superb counter puncher, As Taeth stated in his post the KO of Rahman in their rematch is a great example.

If a fighter has size he does not want to pivot, duck shots that means he has to bring himself down and give up his size.

To pivot I think your are confused you don't pivot on every shot you throw, learn some boxing 101 before using the terms to pivot you use your body behind your punches to get maximum effect these guys at 6'6 245+ don't need to twist with every shot they throw.
Don't confuse the technique used in Mike Tysons punch out as the example of how every fighter should throw a Punch

I find it funny you use Bowe as an example because Riddock's speech shows he knew how to do anything but avoid shots

You cannot even compare styles of say Klitscho and Tyson.

Klitschko is the master of the old one-two. Teeing off, brushing aside the guard with his jab before throwing a huge straight. So simple, yet he's mastered it and no one seems able to stop it.

Fair play to him.

A fight between the brothers, now that's what we want to see!