http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFUQdY6Fx_M
As of this moment Bert Randolph Sugar and Brian Kenny of ESPN ranks Manny at least in the top 20 ATG. If Pacman beats Mayweather where would you put Manny in your ATG list?
Thanks.
Printable View
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFUQdY6Fx_M
As of this moment Bert Randolph Sugar and Brian Kenny of ESPN ranks Manny at least in the top 20 ATG. If Pacman beats Mayweather where would you put Manny in your ATG list?
Thanks.
Taking everything into consideration, probably about 6th for me... here are some of my pics - NOT IN ORDER (although top 5 is about right imo)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Willie Pepp
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Jimmy Wilde
Benny Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Sandy Saddler
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roy Jones Jnr
Sammy Langford
Ricardo Lopez
Charlie Burley
Marvin Hagler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Carlos Monzon
Harry Greb
Archie Moore
Gene Tunney
Aaron Pryor
Eder Jofre
Ezzard Charles
Alexis Arguello
Floyd Mayweather Junior
Billy Conn
Oscar DeLaHoya
Bernard Hopkins
Right now he's about Top 20, I have him & Mayweather about even, whoever wins gets comfortably in the Top 10. They're already the 2 best since Leonard retired, you could arguably have Pernell Whitaker ahead right now, but I can't see Jones ahead. But they'd have to beat the Mosley/Berto winner or Paul Williams to be the GOAT for me. Truthfully you can't properly assess a career till its over. Remember people used to think Leonard ducked top fights & cherry-picked, there were those who thought it ludicrous he be considered an ATG, yet now most people have him in the Top 10, some in the Top 5.
Somewhere in the top 20. If he wins, somewhere between the top 15 to top 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HTaking everything into consideration, probably about 6th for me... here are some of my picsQuote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Willie Pepp
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Jimmy Wilde
Benny Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Sandy Saddler
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roy Jones Jnr
Sammy Langford
Ricardo Lopez
Charlie Burley
Marvin Hagler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Carlos Monzon
Harry Greb
Archie Moore
Gene Tunney
Aaron Pryor
Eder Jofre
Ezzard Charles
Alexis Arguello
Floyd Mayweather Junior
Billy Conn
Oscar DeLaHoya
Bernard Hopkins
i have him in the top 20 already, if he manages to beat Floyd IMO theres no way he shouldn't be in the top 10
I dont see why there should be a bias for fighters from an older generation... IMO Manny Pacquiao is already better than the likes of Duran, Leonard, Whittaker etc... Is it so bad that i feel Floyd Mayweather is more accomplished than Hank Armstrong in every sense of the word?
The names I put up weren't in order, although I think the top 5 is just about right.
It depends if you've seen said fighters in action. It also goes both ways. If you haven't seen many of them in action, then don't make a judgement. If you haven't seen Armstrong in action then it is wrong, however, if you have & simply feel Mayweather is better that is fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
But, the simple fact is you do have to factor different things in. In the eras of SRR, Pep & Armstrong, they would be fighting top opponents every few weeks, which makes their performances all the more impressive. Now a top fighter gets in the ring every 6 months at best.
Also, I can't see Pacquiao as being better than Leonard or Duran yet & probably not Whitaker quite.
The thing that gets me is, as time goes on, styles evolve, tactics tighten and fighters become more athletic and so on... I don't look at Ray Robinson and think ''with today's training methods he'd be unbeatable...'' He was yesterdays fighter and i judge him as such. Hence achievement is the biggest thing these older fighters have going for them. (Hence why it's only the fighters with exceptional achievements who stand out).Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinIt depends if you've seen said fighters in action. It also goes both ways. If you haven't seen many of them in action, then don't make a judgement. If you haven't seen Armstrong in action then it is wrong, however, if you have & simply feel Mayweather is better that is fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
But, the simple fact is you do have to factor different things in. In the eras of SRR, Pep & Armstrong, they would be fighting top opponents every few weeks, which makes their performances all the more impressive. Now a top fighter gets in the ring every 6 months at best.
Also, I can't see Pacquiao as being better than Leonard or Duran yet & probably not Whitaker quite.
Ray Robinson has more knockouts than most guys these days have had fights. But what of things like the 'tours of Europe' and b.s like that? How does that ''factor in'' to his tally?
I'm not knocking Robinson one bit but being old skool is not to be viewed through rose tinted glasses IMO. It's a two way street. There's a lot of old skool shit that went on back in the day that, if still incorporated in today's game, would make some current fighters God like icons (outside of the Philippines).
Another thing about Ray Robinson (Sorry!) was how far ahead of the game he was. Nobody could do the things he could do, brought the fight the way he did (or at least that was how it was viewed).
Thats no different now with both Floyd and Manny (Probably more so Manny; albiet ironically with his technical deficiencies).
NO ONE in the sport today, nor ever have been able to fight they way they do. And this is two guys who have beat the best and done it through numerous weight classes just the same... So how are they NOT ranked higher than those oldies?
I thought i'd rather not go quietly on this one ;D
I have him in the top 20 already as well and will give him top 10 and arguably top 5 if beats Mayweather (depending on the performance). He's done things that ATGs are expected to do. Take on tough challenges, comeback and win after tough losses, win titles and successfully defend them ( at least in some of the weight classes) and bring the masses to boxing. His career isn't over yet but so far he is clearly one of the best fighters of his or any other generation in boxing.
I do think it's all about circumstances. I agree a modern fighter should be judged equally, but they shouldn't be automatically higher because they can go through more weight divisions. Nowadays, fighters have weigh-ins 36 hours before the fight, only have to go 12 rounds & have far better nutritional training. Not to mention fighting far less regularly. You have to bear in mind that Robinson would have been a 3 weight world champion, but for being dehydrated by the temperature in a fight he was winning against Joey Maxim. If the Mayweather/Pacquiao winner beat the Mosley/Berto winner & then beat Paul Williams, I'd say unequivocally they were the best of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimboogieThe thing that gets me is, as time goes on, styles evolve, tactics tighten and fighters become more athletic and so on... I don't look at Ray Robinson and think ''with today's training methods he'd be unbeatable...'' He was yesterdays fighter and i judge him as such. Hence achievement is the biggest thing these older fighters have going for them. (Hence why it's only the fighters with exceptional achievements who stand out).Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinIt depends if you've seen said fighters in action. It also goes both ways. If you haven't seen many of them in action, then don't make a judgement. If you haven't seen Armstrong in action then it is wrong, however, if you have & simply feel Mayweather is better that is fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
But, the simple fact is you do have to factor different things in. In the eras of SRR, Pep & Armstrong, they would be fighting top opponents every few weeks, which makes their performances all the more impressive. Now a top fighter gets in the ring every 6 months at best.
Also, I can't see Pacquiao as being better than Leonard or Duran yet & probably not Whitaker quite.
Ray Robinson has more knockouts than most guys these days have had fights. But what of things like the 'tours of Europe' and b.s like that? How does that ''factor in'' to his tally?
I'm not knocking Robinson one bit but being old skool is not to be viewed through rose tinted glasses IMO. It's a two way street. There's a lot of old skool shit that went on back in the day that, if still incorporated in today's game, would make some current fighters God like icons (outside of the Philippines).
Another thing about Ray Robinson (Sorry!) was how far ahead of the game he was. Nobody could do the things he could do, brought the fight the way he did (or at least that was how it was viewed).
Thats no different now with both Floyd and Manny (Probably more so Manny; albiet ironically with his technical deficiencies).
NO ONE in the sport today, nor ever have been able to fight they way they do. And this is two guys who have beat the best and done it through numerous weight classes just the same... So how are they NOT ranked higher than those oldies?
I thought i'd rather not go quietly on this one ;D
On the subject of the European tours, Robinson did fight some excellent fighters whilst doing those, he wasn't just beating up on bums, he did it because he'd beaten the best in his country & went for the best in Europe.
I would also argue against the idea of greater athleticism. Whilst there might be new training regimens, I'd argue that the overall fitness to fight regular fights meant they were very well conditioned back then, certainly not any less naturally athletic. The key difference imo is nutrition & that styles have tightened.
I do disagree strongly that no one has ever been able to fight to PBF or Pac's levels. There are many who've been on that level. As great as they are, they aren't definitively better than Robinson, Armstrong, Pep or Benny Leonard. It's a careful balance between overrating the older guys & underrating them.
WOW!:o
How things change so quickly in boxing!
I mentioned that I thought pac was top 20 ATG and got ripped upi for arrse paper.
I am glad people have come around to my way of thinking at last.;D
:confused: How high is heaven? :confused:
That depends how close to God you are. In which case, Andre Ward is The G.O.A.T.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
Fact.
I don't think he's really better than Pernell Whitaker, if Pernell Whitaker had not been robbed in his decision losses and draws coughs. He would be considered top 5 IMO, his only legit loss is too Felix Trinidad when he was way past his prime and having problems with drugs. Just take a look at this record for a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez x2
Julio Cesar Chavez
Oscar De La Hoya
Greg Haugen
Wilfredo Rivera x2
Diosbelys Hurtado
Julio Cesar Vasquez
Buddy McGirt x2
Rafael Pineda
Freddie Pendleton
Anthony Jones
Policarpo Diaz
Jorge Paez
I think he won all of these fights, plus take into account his other achievements.
World titles.
Lightweight 10 title wins including the 1st Jose Luis Ramirez fight.
Jr Welterweight
Welterweight 10 title wins including Julio Cesar Chavez and ODLH.
Jr Middleweight
And for the record i think Pernell Whitaker, would of beaten Manny Pacquiao by atleast 8 rounds to 4.
Finally as for Roberto Duran his record speaks for itself.
Pac already top ten for me
If he beats PBF convincingly he hits the top 3 - if he destroys him then maybe just maybe........;)
It's hard to debate against that. There's a lot of facts there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI don't think he's really better than Pernell Whitaker, if Pernell Whitaker had not been robbed in his decision losses and draws coughs. He would be considered top 5 IMO, his only legit loss is too Felix Trinidad when he was way past his prime and having problems with drugs. Just take a look at this record for a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez x2
Julio Cesar Chavez
Oscar De La Hoya
Greg Haugen
Wilfredo Rivera x2
Diosbelys Hurtado
Julio Cesar Vasquez
Buddy McGirt x2
Rafael Pineda
Freddie Pendleton
Anthony Jones
Policarpo Diaz
Jorge Paez
I think he won all of these fights, plus take into account his other achievements.
World titles.
Lightweight 10 title wins including the 1st Jose Luis Ramirez fight.
Jr Welterweight
Welterweight 10 title wins including Julio Cesar Chavez and ODLH.
Jr Middleweight
And for the record i think Pernell Whitaker, would of beaten Manny Pacquiao by atleast 8 rounds to 4.
Finally as for Roberto Duran his record speaks for itself.
Except for the parts that are not fact of course.
No but seriously, i hear you. I dunno, i guess i picked on a bad bunch in Duran/ Whittaker/ Leonard (Although on a basis of head-to-head, i personally still think Manny AND Floyd would win 2 out of 3 of those fights).
And Henry Armstrong...? Yeah he was a great fighter, with a great engine and achieved a lot but again (for example) i just feel that both Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao are almost a league above him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI don't think he's really better than Pernell Whitaker, if Pernell Whitaker had not been robbed in his decision losses and draws coughs. He would be considered top 5 IMO, his only legit loss is too Felix Trinidad when he was way past his prime and having problems with drugs. Just take a look at this record for a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez x2
Julio Cesar Chavez
Oscar De La Hoya
Greg Haugen
Wilfredo Rivera x2
Diosbelys Hurtado
Julio Cesar Vasquez
Buddy McGirt x2
Rafael Pineda
Freddie Pendleton
Anthony Jones
Policarpo Diaz
Jorge Paez
I think he won all of these fights, plus take into account his other achievements.
World titles.
Lightweight 10 title wins including the 1st Jose Luis Ramirez fight.
Jr Welterweight
Welterweight 10 title wins including Julio Cesar Chavez and ODLH.
Jr Middleweight
And for the record i think Pernell Whitaker, would of beaten Manny Pacquiao by atleast 8 rounds to 4.
Finally as for Roberto Duran his record speaks for itself.
That list isnt impressive IMO. Pacquiao has faced better opposition. No chance Pernell would beat the Pacquiao right now prime for prime. Give me negative strikes all you want but i think when Manny Pacquiao's career is over, he will be around the world considered Top 3 of all time! (when his career is over).
Azumah Nelson-----> Erik MoralesQuote:
Originally Posted by levi#1BoxingFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBI don't think he's really better than Pernell Whitaker, if Pernell Whitaker had not been robbed in his decision losses and draws coughs. He would be considered top 5 IMO, his only legit loss is too Felix Trinidad when he was way past his prime and having problems with drugs. Just take a look at this record for a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez x2
Julio Cesar Chavez
Oscar De La Hoya
Greg Haugen
Wilfredo Rivera x2
Diosbelys Hurtado
Julio Cesar Vasquez
Buddy McGirt x2
Rafael Pineda
Freddie Pendleton
Anthony Jones
Policarpo Diaz
Jorge Paez
I think he won all of these fights, plus take into account his other achievements.
World titles.
Lightweight 10 title wins including the 1st Jose Luis Ramirez fight.
Jr Welterweight
Welterweight 10 title wins including Julio Cesar Chavez and ODLH.
Jr Middleweight
And for the record i think Pernell Whitaker, would of beaten Manny Pacquiao by atleast 8 rounds to 4.
Finally as for Roberto Duran his record speaks for itself.
That list isnt impressive IMO. Pacquiao has faced better opposition. No chance Pernell would beat the Pacquiao right now prime for prime. Give me negative strikes all you want but i think when Manny Pacquiao's career is over, he will be around the world considered Top 3 of all time! (when his career is over).
Julio Cesar Chavez-----> MAB
Prime ODLH-----> JMM
Buddy McGirt-----> Miguel Cotto
Jose Luis Ramirez-----> Ricky Hatton
If you don't think that list is impressive im speechless.
Top 5
If Manny Pacquiao KO Floyd Mayweather Jr. I'll put him higher.
:vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by levi#1BoxingFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBI don't think he's really better than Pernell Whitaker, if Pernell Whitaker had not been robbed in his decision losses and draws coughs. He would be considered top 5 IMO, his only legit loss is too Felix Trinidad when he was way past his prime and having problems with drugs. Just take a look at this record for a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez x2
Julio Cesar Chavez
Oscar De La Hoya
Greg Haugen
Wilfredo Rivera x2
Diosbelys Hurtado
Julio Cesar Vasquez
Buddy McGirt x2
Rafael Pineda
Freddie Pendleton
Anthony Jones
Policarpo Diaz
Jorge Paez
I think he won all of these fights, plus take into account his other achievements.
World titles.
Lightweight 10 title wins including the 1st Jose Luis Ramirez fight.
Jr Welterweight
Welterweight 10 title wins including Julio Cesar Chavez and ODLH.
Jr Middleweight
And for the record i think Pernell Whitaker, would of beaten Manny Pacquiao by atleast 8 rounds to 4.
Finally as for Roberto Duran his record speaks for itself.
That list isnt impressive IMO. Pacquiao has faced better opposition. No chance Pernell would beat the Pacquiao right now prime for prime. Give me negative strikes all you want but i think when Manny Pacquiao's career is over, he will be around the world considered Top 3 of all time! (when his career is over).
How high would you rank Manny in ATG if he beats PBF?
I think we should not hurry up and wait until the final bell of this fight, if it will happen.
Pac has been in my top 10 ATG after he demolished Hatton in just 2 rounds. He's in my top 5 after he outclassed Cotto. His fights with Hatton and Cotto showed us the difference between great fighters and top 5 all time greats.
IMO, he will be my GOAT if he defeats Mayweather.
If he beats Floyd, which I don't think he will, I'll eat my words and rank him in the top 20, depending on the fashion in which he does it, possibly even top 15. Same goes for Floyd if he beats Pacquiao. However, I don't think most fans will ever give PBF the credit that he deserves for his skill-set.
Also, I really don't see how people can possibly be ranking him above SRR, Armstrong, Ali, Leonard, Duran, Hagler, etc. :o Not one, but two highly disputed matches against JMM? Please..
How about where would you rank Floyd when he beats Pacquiao?
And top 20 if Pacquiao beats Floyd. But I don't see that happening.
Pac at the moment is within top 7, to me way above Duran. Duran has a questionable heart (no mas, no mas) just a pure brawler doesnt have the beauty of in and out, lateral movement, etc. Pac is way better than Duran in style and resume. If he beats Mayweather he is absolutely within top 3. Pac is a combination of Duran and Leonard to me.
Floyd beating Manny doesnt make him at top 20. He should step up and fights better oppositions bigger than him like what Manny did all his career. at the moment he is fighting good smaller opponents bloating them up to his comfortable weights, eg. Hatton and JMM, far from being a great fighter.
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfld
Floyd fought for 8 years as a pro before he reached 140 (Hatton's career weight) DLH fought for the World Middleweight title, Zudah never lower than LWW, Baldomir a career WW.
Completely disagree with your Duran opinion too
thats got to be the dumbest thing i heard in a long time, i not even gonna try and tell u why that is so stupid, it just is, WTF MANQuote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfld
People will never be able to admit that Floyd has beaten the best. They will always say he has fought nobodys (yet you'll always find a number of these nobodies on their favorite fighters list). My argument is simple.. he just makes it look like hes fighting nobodies :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BIG H:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfld
Floyd fought for 8 years as a pro before he reached 140 (Hatton's career weight) DLH fought for the World Middleweight title, Zudah never lower than LWW, Baldomir a career WW.
Completely disagree with your Duran opinion too
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfld
Its funny how in the near 40 fights Mayweather has had he fights one guy he is bigger then(Marquez) while everyone else has been same size or bigger then him and people are saying he doesn't fight people his own size ;D
probably between 20 -10
Best hypocrite post ever. cant say why because truth hurts. how can you deny no mas, no mas? does duran moves in and out? side to side? does he has lateral movement? compare pac resume to duran and youll see, blind stupid freak.Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy448thats got to be the dumbest thing i heard in a long time, i not even gonna try and tell u why that is so stupid, it just is, WTF MANQuote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfld
Floyd is the biggest fraud that ever happen in boxing. A self proclaimed great while ducking Cotto, Mosley, Margarito. IMHO, Cotto is way better than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfld
Its funny how in the near 40 fights Mayweather has had he fights one guy he is bigger then(Marquez) while everyone else has been same size or bigger then him and people are saying he doesn't fight people his own size ;D
My god! It's both hilarious and disturbing how blindly some people worship others. Manny is a great fighter...no question. But to this point...the best fighters he has faced have been in the lower weight classes: Marquez, Morales, and Barrera. The best fighter he has faced, regardless of weight, has been Marquez. His record against Marquez: a draw (could have been a loss) and a very narrow win (also could have been a loss). People will jump up and down and say, "Well that was the "old" Manny, the new Manny would have destroyed Marquez." It was the new and improved Manny in their second fight...and as far as how they would fair against each other at this exact point in time...we will never know unless they fight. The buzz about Pac recently has been his climbing up in weight and dominating. But you have to look at the quality of the opponents. I would argue all day that guys like Oscar, Hatton, and Cotto (ESPECIALLY AT THE POINT OF THEIR CAREERS THAT MANNY FOUGHT THEM AT)...are not in the same caliber as the guys Manny beat in the lower weight classes. Roach has been very smart in who has picked for Pac's last three fights. Does Pac deserve credit for taking a risk in going up in weight and winning...absolutely. But to say that beating two shot fighters in Oscar and Hatton and a SOLID fighter in Cotto...is proof that Pac could beat or dominate guys like Leonard, Duran, Whitaker is insane. I am not saying Manny wouldn't have a chance against those all time greats...but those guys where incredible fighters...they weren't Oscar, Hatton, or Cotto. Now....IF Pac can beat a supremely skilled, athletic, PRIME fighter like Floyd....then we can have those discussions seriously.
Yes he did actually!! These may not be key characteristics of his method of fighting, but he still had them. But Why are you using those things as reasons for him not being great? Are moving in and out and having great lateral movement the main criteria for great boxers? You need to go and watch some more Duran fights (and that's something I rarely say, coz I hate it when people say it, but you need to) the guys is arguably top 5 all time p4p and that is a view shared by a huge number of boxers, writers etc that know a lot more than you and I. I'll give yo No mas, it is the one shadow over his career - who knows what happend, but he more than made up for it before and after.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfldBest hypocrite post ever. cant say why because truth hurts. how can you deny no mas, no mas? does duran moves in and out? side to side? does he has lateral movement? compare pac resume to duran and youll see, blind stupid freak.Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy448thats got to be the dumbest thing i heard in a long time, i not even gonna try and tell u why that is so stupid, it just is, WTF MANQuote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfld
As for resume, you need to look at his career at Lightweight, anything after that (and he still had great achievements) was not his prime, he fought nearly twice as many fights at Lightweight than PBF has fought in his whole career to date.
Greatest Lightweight ever 71-1 - criticize his opposition all you want, but tell me who he didn't face during his reign
Was level after 12 rounds with the greatest middleweight of all time fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight.
Beat the unbeaten all time great Sugar Ray Leonard.
Well my friend, if Floyd is a fraud, then he is a pretty impressive one all things considered. Furthermore, how could he manage to duck all those people you named when he just recenty came out of retirement and hasn't had time to fight all those guys yet? And I dont blame the guy for taking the fight that he did after he just came back from being inactive. And now Manny is simply "the one" right now, and you know everyone wants to see that fight. So it makes no sense to duck Pac and fight one of the guys you mentioned. Perhaps later, then sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfldFloyd is the biggest fraud that ever happen in boxing. A self proclaimed great while ducking Cotto, Mosley, Margarito. IMHO, Cotto is way better than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by mike_scfld
Its funny how in the near 40 fights Mayweather has had he fights one guy he is bigger then(Marquez) while everyone else has been same size or bigger then him and people are saying he doesn't fight people his own size ;D
IMO Mayweather still has a lot more to prove, he is without doubt the best defensive boxer i have ever seen, he has managed his career well, avoiding the likes of Tszyu, Mosley, Cotto, Margarito and a well timed retirement just as Paul Williams becomes a dominant force? He still has good wins over Castillo, Corrales, DLH and Hatton. Pacquiao has done it all, coming from Flyweight!! His last 4 fights define his career with wins over Marquez, DLH, Hatton and Cotto. Many on this forum gave him little chance against DLH (me included) he then destroys Hatton in 2 rounds with a text book left hook, he then goes up against the solid, big hitting Cotto who many believe should still be undefeated after Margogate! How high would i rank him if he beats Floyd? Top 20 ATG for certain, he is pretty close to that now! Floyd needs to beat Manny convincingly to achieve the same recognition. Currently i have Manny ahead of Floyd. I reckon Floyd has more to lose here in a fight with Pacquiao.
Ok, this is what annoys me when people rearrange history to fit their opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
Paul Williams was not becoming a dominant force when Mayweather retired, in fact, at the time he retired Williams was coming off a one-sided decision loss to Carlos Quintana. It is only since his retirement & comeback that he has fought his way to the position he is now.
I also get sick of hearing that he ducked Tszyu & Mosley. There was an arrangement in place that Mayweather & Tszyu would meet after they both made some money fighting easier opponents (let's not forget neither was BIG bucks then). Mayweather beat Gatti easily, but Tszyu didn't fulfill his part of it & got beaten by Hatton a month earlier if I remember rightly.
Mayweather called Mosley out in 1999, when Mosley priced himself out of a fight demanding $10m (fair enough as he had an Oscar fight on the horizon) & in 2006, when he wanted to have a vacation rather than make the fight. I have no problem with him doing that, but let's not then claim he's been avoided.
As for Margarito & Cotto, I can certainly some truth there, but only with them. Margarito he could have fought in 2006 for $8m (although you have to wonder if that was there seeing as Margarito only made $3m fighting Mosley this year - remember this is pre-ODLH Mayweather), but he chose to fight the Lineal Champion Baldomir for the same money.
As for Cotto, I can definitely see the argument that he retired at a time when Cotto was coming up. There was recently a rumour that they tried to make the fight at when both were at 140, but the fact is Cotto was a different beast at 147.
Plus, can we please stop pretending that Hatton was one of PBF's best wins? He was a good win, but Corrales, Castillo, ODLH & Genaro Hernandez all are worth more, not to mention Marquez even if that fight was a tune-up.
I'm not going to take credit away from any of Manny's victories because what he's done is amazing, but don't rewrite history (his last 4 fights have been Cotto, Hatton, ODLH & David Diaz btw) just to suit an argument. Why can't people just accept that we're lucky to have 2 of the best in the history of this profession almost certain to fight one another & sit back & enjoy it rather than acting like they need to denigrate one or the other.
Actually, Floyd Retired after the Hatton fight (December 2007).Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
But this was after Williams had just beaten Margarito (June 2007).
Williams didn't fight Quintana until February 2008
So personally, i think we should add Williams back to ''the list of the ducked'' :)
Jaz,
First, is Floyd ranked higher on your ATG list than Manny at this point in time? And would a win over Floyd for Manny mean more to you than a win for Floyd over Manny in terms of legacy and ATG status?
Second, regardless of whether Floyd "What Have You Done For Me Lately?" Mayweather ducked Margarito, Mosley, Cotto, or Williams, or just chose not to fight them for whatever reason, we can both agree that he hasn't fought them and as such, at welterweight, he really hasn't done much. When he retires, because it is too soon to pass judgment, if he still hasn't fought any of those names, it should be taken into account when considering his ATG status.