i think in order for him to really be back up there in his division he gota get a rematch with maidana and win, he was doing pretty good until he gave up.
what do you fighters think?
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i think in order for him to really be back up there in his division he gota get a rematch with maidana and win, he was doing pretty good until he gave up.
what do you fighters think?
i don't know if he's "back" but i do know he looked much better defensively last night and he looked a little quicker than against maidana. the guy has some really good boxing skills when he uses them. i think he can be a major force in boxing with more experience and learning from his trainer.
i think that the last thing that should be on Ortiz' mind right now is a rematch with Maidana, they need to put the guy in with quality opponents but not world class guys, build up his confidence again and use fighters with different attributes to hone his own skills in different areas, then move up to world class guys like Maidana, Urango, Khan, Bradley, etc.
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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
that wont be a bad idea
IMO this kid is still something special, and i'd hate to see his career wrecked cause people were in too much of a rush to make money off of himQuote:
Originally Posted by nyc champQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
that wont be a bad idea
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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
gee isn't that what is supposed to happen - they used to do it before all the media hype round fighters.
exactly, they were building him up right, but once the buzz started and people began to see the $$$ they could make on the kid they quickly rushed him to see if they could get a title around his waist, knowing full well he wasn't ready, i'm not the only person to say he wasn't ready for Maidana, but they did it anyhowQuote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
gee isn't that what is supposed to happen - they used to do it before all the media hype round fighters.
his promoter bragged that he's the next big thing before the maidana fight then bam
he wasn't ready for that fight, but even there he showed he has the tools to live up to what he's being billed to be, just isn't quite there yet and needs some workQuote:
Originally Posted by zbolt
He was ready for the fight. No doubt about that. Looked at the success he was having. Problem was he had no idea how to deal with adversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleshe wasn't ready for that fight, but even there he showed he has the tools to live up to what he's being billed to be, just isn't quite there yet and needs some workQuote:
Originally Posted by zbolt
look at how many mistakes he was making, in defense, keeping his composure, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseHe was ready for the fight. No doubt about that. Looked at the success he was having. Problem was he had no idea how to deal with adversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleshe wasn't ready for that fight, but even there he showed he has the tools to live up to what he's being billed to be, just isn't quite there yet and needs some workQuote:
Originally Posted by zbolt
Look at all the mistakes Maidana made. Was he not ready for the fight either? Yes he was. He handles adversity better than Ortiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleslook at how many mistakes he was making, in defense, keeping his composure, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseHe was ready for the fight. No doubt about that. Looked at the success he was having. Problem was he had no idea how to deal with adversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
Maidana had already fought for a world title when he went up against Ortiz, this was Victor's title eliminator, added all the pressure put on him wouldn't doubt that it could have played a partQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseLook at all the mistakes Maidana made. Was he not ready for the fight either? Yes he was. He handles adversity better than Ortiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleslook at how many mistakes he was making, in defense, keeping his composure, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
wish he/they could have pulled out from that fight if he wasn't readyQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleshe wasn't ready for that fight, but even there he showed he has the tools to live up to what he's being billed to be, just isn't quite there yet and needs some workQuote:
Originally Posted by zbolt
I think Ortiz will be a force in the welters and junior middleweight. El Terrible is right they should take time building up Vic. Speed, power and skill is definitely there!
Personally, it's hard to say, for me at the moment it could be something like 50-50. I would like him to fight a medium opponent to tune up, get a bit more experience, see how he does against him and then launch him up again. I think he could be a force to be reckon with but things should be moved slowly just not to break something great in the making as it looks fragile at the moment.
Problem is, he's shown all future opponents that he has a big weakness in his mental make-up. Agaianst Maidana he couldn't respond to adversity. Maidana asked some questions and Ortiz didn't have any answers really. Maybe he can be effective against guys who aren't as physically challenging or tough.
I have to admit after seeing his fight with Diaz I still have my doubts about him. Did he look fast? Yeah. Did he look strong? Kinda. Did he look mentally recovered? Kinda.
Diaz was way past his best and still caught Ortiz with some good shots. I think that someone with either more power or speed will be able to get Ortiz back to that Maidana place.
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Originally Posted by Violent DemiseHe was ready for the fight. No doubt about that. Looked at the success he was having. Problem was he had no idea how to deal with adversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleshe wasn't ready for that fight, but even there he showed he has the tools to live up to what he's being billed to be, just isn't quite there yet and needs some workQuote:
Originally Posted by zbolt
I'm not sure how much mental toughness can be taught tbh. I know having the right people round you can help but surely they can only work with what is there already. I know we're talking on a different scale but lots of people said it about Tyson, he boxed as a bully once someone (Hollyfield) had the skills to stand up to that it all crumbled....of course not everyone was aware of the extent of Tysons mental state but Hollyfield has always seemed to have the mental toughness to get him through.
The next time he's in a war he'll crumble again.
When was he actully here?
That wouldn't be a surprise. He'll land his shots. His opponent would land his. Ortiz will go down. He might get up the first time. And he might even return the favor. But once his opponent gets up again. Ortiz would pretty much be doneQuote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
Lost all my respect for Victor after the Maidana fight with the way he acted after the fight and the way he acted in the post fight conference.
The corner of Diaz did right by stopping.
I'm not sure if I'd of gone through ropes with two judges named Gizmo & Leerch watching my every move. ;D
The names Fernando Vargas and Panchito Bojado come to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesIMO this kid is still something special, and i'd hate to see his career wrecked cause people were in too much of a rush to make money off of himQuote:
Originally Posted by nyc champQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
that wont be a bad idea
Thats why I think that loss is the best thing to happen to him. If Vargas had rightfully lost to Wright then he may have went on to become one of the all time greats. So I think that Ortiz losing that way will help his career. Early losses don't hurt careers they can make careers. So now they should bring Ortiz along slowly against good fighters on a few more cards. What I like is he is boxing more.
Vargas deserved the win. Wright only has himself to blame for allowing himself to be out worked in the championship rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyThe names Fernando Vargas and Panchito Bojado come to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesIMO this kid is still something special, and i'd hate to see his career wrecked cause people were in too much of a rush to make money off of himQuote:
Originally Posted by nyc champ
Thats why I think that loss is the best thing to happen to him. If Vargas had rightfully lost to Wright then he may have went on to become one of the all time greats. So I think that Ortiz losing that way will help his career. Early losses don't hurt careers they can make careers. So now they should bring Ortiz along slowly against good fighters on a few more cards. What I like is he is boxing more.
the mental aspect in ortiz game will be still under question.
agreed, i thought his defense was a bit sharper, and he was a lot more patient, if he continues to steadily improve and move up in quality slowly he can be a great fighterQuote:
Originally Posted by MajestyThe names Fernando Vargas and Panchito Bojado come to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesIMO this kid is still something special, and i'd hate to see his career wrecked cause people were in too much of a rush to make money off of himQuote:
Originally Posted by nyc champ
Thats why I think that loss is the best thing to happen to him. If Vargas had rightfully lost to Wright then he may have went on to become one of the all time greats. So I think that Ortiz losing that way will help his career. Early losses don't hurt careers they can make careers. So now they should bring Ortiz along slowly against good fighters on a few more cards. What I like is he is boxing more.
I had the fight a draw but it always escapes me, when people say that fight was a robbery. Fernando Vargas fought his heart out in the championship rounds, clearly winning those rounds to earn the win. Which i had no problem with it was a very close fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseVargas deserved the win. Wright only has himself to blame for allowing himself to be out worked in the championship rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyThe names Fernando Vargas and Panchito Bojado come to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
Thats why I think that loss is the best thing to happen to him. If Vargas had rightfully lost to Wright then he may have went on to become one of the all time greats. So I think that Ortiz losing that way will help his career. Early losses don't hurt careers they can make careers. So now they should bring Ortiz along slowly against good fighters on a few more cards. What I like is he is boxing more.
He was also effective to the body against Winky Wright, infact i don't think Fernando Vargas gets enough credit for that fight. Who else really troubled Winky Wright at Jr Middleweight ?
Harry Simon but again he was a very talented fighter, and he had to keep throwing and throwing punches just to make it close, and i thought Winky Wright stole that fight.
And the only other name is Julio Cesar Vasquez, when Winky Wright was seriously inexperienced. And even with that amount of knockdowns which some of them were balance issues. It still wasn't that one sided either.
I think people over-use the term robbery. Maidana - Kotelnik and Hatton - Collazo are two that stand out that i keep hearing called robberies when in fact they were close fights. As for Vargas and Winky, i agree, close fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI had the fight a draw but it always escapes me, when people say that fight was a robbery. Fernando Vargas fought his heart out in the championship rounds, clearly winning those rounds to earn the win. Which i had no problem with it was a very close fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseVargas deserved the win. Wright only has himself to blame for allowing himself to be out worked in the championship rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
He was also effective to the body against Winky Wright, infact i don't think Fernando Vargas gets enough credit for that fight. Who else really troubled Winky Wright at Jr Middleweight ?
Harry Simon but again he was a very talented fighter, and he had to keep throwing and throwing punches just to make it close, and i thought Winky Wright stole that fight.
And the only other name is Julio Cesar Vasquez, when Winky Wright was seriously inexperienced. And even with that amount of knockdowns which some of them were balance issues. It still wasn't that one sided either.
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Originally Posted by ICBI had the fight a draw but it always escapes me, when people say that fight was a robbery. Fernando Vargas fought his heart out in the championship rounds, clearly winning those rounds to earn the win. Which i had no problem with it was a very close fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseVargas deserved the win. Wright only has himself to blame for allowing himself to be out worked in the championship rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
He was also effective to the body against Winky Wright, infact i don't think Fernando Vargas gets enough credit for that fight. Who else really troubled Winky Wright at Jr Middleweight ?
Harry Simon but again he was a very talented fighter, and he had to keep throwing and throwing punches just to make it close, and i thought Winky Wright stole that fight.
And the only other name is Julio Cesar Vasquez, when Winky Wright was seriously inexperienced. And even with that amount of knockdowns which some of them were balance issues. It still wasn't that one sided either.
ILL GIVE VARGES THE PROPS FOR MAKING IT A CLOSE ONE, BUT WINKY ONE THAT FIGHT
I can see Wright winning the fight. But to call it a robbery is just moronic.