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Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
For everyone talking about Pac's amazing weight gain (hinting at steroids) I was looking at Box Rec and compared his rise in weight to Golden Boy Production's head Honcho Oscar De La Hoya.
De La Hoya:
In 1994 at age 21 he weighed 128 and 3/4 pounds for a fight.
In 2001 at age 28 he weighed 154 for a fight.
Weight gain: 25 pounds in 7 years.
Pac:
In 1995 at age 17 he weighed 106 pounds for a fight.
In 2009 at age 31 he weighed 144 pounds for a fight.
Weight gain: 38 pounds in 14 years.
Now observing that ODLH was more of an adult and away from his growing years than PAC was, and the fact that Pac took so many years to, pardon the pun, pack on the pounds, what kind of steroids was ODLH on?
Just wondering. Plus the fact that ODLH eventually dropped 7 pounds for his last fight, and since we haven't seen a fight to come about to motivate PAC to drop back down a division or two we don't know what he can go back to yet.
Just food for thought...Jody
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Well, Pacquiao went up from 130 to 144 or so in what, 2 years? That and he stayed looking ripped and his power still looked good. Personally I think it can be explained (he was weighing 144 on fight night for the JMM fight at 130 and he weighed 148 the night of the Hatton fight, he's just not cutting as much) but combine that with the refusal to take the tests that could really show if he's using or not and of course people are skeptical.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
25 pounds in 7 years or 38 in 14 years isn't exactly a great deal of weight for a human to gain...
It's worth noting that those weights won't have been actual weights either but dehydrated weights... ODLH would of had to have dry up a lot more to reach light weight than he would to reach welterweight for example... so really we should be looking more at the weights they walked around at... not fought at.
Weight gain? You eat more calories than you expend... pretty simple really... steroids aren't what makes a person gain weight... they help to stop your body breaking down during intense training but that's it... You'll see guys gaining 25 pounds in a few months of training if they're into hypertrophy, so I think that comparing two fighters and the handful of pounds they gained over DECADES doesn't prove or disprove jackshit... real psuedo-science.
Every body's metabolism is set up different for a start.
But really weight isn't an issue... performance, more specifically rapid improvements in performance are.
Weight gain over decades shouldn't really raise any suspicions of steroid abuse...
Now, being in the public eye, refusing to take the most fail-safe drug test out there and then floundering around, contradicting yourself and coming up with every excuse under the sun - that might raise a few eyebrows
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
ODH is tall and rangy so can up the weight easier, like Hearns.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
^hahaha, straight to the point... unlike my rant! :p
Yes, I should also mention that ODLH being 5 foot 11 might have something to do with it... ;)
Sometimes it's not a case of a fighter forcing their weight up... it's just that they've stopped forcing their weight down.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
^hahaha, straight to the point... unlike my rant! :p
Yes, I should also mention that ODLH being 5 foot 11 might have something to do with it... ;)
Sometimes it's not a case of a fighter forcing their weight up... it's just that they've stopped forcing their weight down.
I agree with all that. I was going to mention something about Arturo Gatti fighting at 140 but coming in figh night at 151. As far as the not wanting to take the tests, if someone called me a cheater with no basis or evidence other than I moved up in weight, I might tell them to take a hike. Then again for 40 million other reasons I'd take the damn test and try to beat the shit out of them.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."
From Thomas Hauser
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Hauser also noted this about Evander Holyfield and steroids:
"On August 29, 2006, federal Drug Enforcement Agency officials in Alabama raided a compounding pharmacy (a pharmacy that makes its own drugs generically) called Applied Pharmacy Services. Among the documents seized were records stating that, in June 2004, a patient named “Evan Fields” picked up three vials of testosterone and related injection supplies from a doctor in Columbus, Georgia. That same month, Fields received five vials of Saizen (a human growth hormone). In September 2004, according to the documents, Fields underwent treatment for hypogonadism (a condition that results when the sex glands produce little or no hormones). The date of birth, home address, and telephone number listed for Evan Fields in Applied Pharmacy’s records were identical to those of Evander Holyfield.
The New York Times reported in 1995 that, after Holyfield lost his heavyweight championship to Michael Moorer, Evander was diagnosed as having a non-compliant left ventricle (one of four chambers in the human heart), which caused a dangerous build-up of fluids. That diagnosis, according to the Times, was confirmed by two sets of tests, the second round being conducted at Emory University in Atlanta.
Holyfield was tested a number of times for steroids in Nevada. The tests all came back negative. He was not tested by the Nevada commission for human growth hormone or EPO.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."
From Thomas Hauser
Thanks Lance for the good point
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LuciferTheGreat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
^hahaha, straight to the point... unlike my rant! :p
Yes, I should also mention that ODLH being 5 foot 11 might have something to do with it... ;)
Sometimes it's not a case of a fighter forcing their weight up... it's just that they've stopped forcing their weight down.
I agree with all that. I was going to mention something about Arturo Gatti fighting at 140 but coming in figh night at 151. As far as the not wanting to take the tests, if someone called me a cheater with no basis or evidence other than I moved up in weight, I might tell them to take a hike. Then again for 40 million other reasons I'd take the damn test and try to beat the shit out of them.
If Pac had simply said to "take a hike", I think things may very well have turned out different. I believe it was all the excuses, half compromises, and contradictions that made Pac look bad, and ultimately led negotiations down the ill fated path.
I'm sure there are countless examples of PED use that will never be known. There is an "arms race" between new more effective testing and drugs/administering techniques that aim to avoid detection. Time will tell if professional boxing does its best to keep current with the most effective testing procedures.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Yeah, saying no was kind of bad but he could of just shrugged it off and walked away from it... like you said it's the contradictions, bargaining, back tracking and out right lying which have hurt him the most.
An utter PR disaster.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
The fact that he's moved up the weights isn't too amazing. It's the fact that he moved through the weights and has not lost any explosiveness. Oscar got less explosive as he moved up in weight!
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
I think Pacman was just fighting at too small of a weight to begin with.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
The fact that he's moved up the weights isn't too amazing. It's the fact that he moved through the weights and has not lost any explosiveness. Oscar got less explosive as he moved up in weight!
Totally agree. You can't look at just weight gain and leave it at that. Any fighter can go up in weight classes. Its how that fighter does and looks is what would raise the eyebrows. Especially being in the steroid era its natural to at least be open to the possibility anyone can be on it.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."
From Thomas Hauser
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."
From Thomas Hauser
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."
From Thomas Hauser
Floyd pretty much
stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
Same thing with De la Hoya. At 130 and 135 Oscar was KO'ing everybody having about a 90% KO rate. From 140 on he was having trouble KOing (about a 50% rate) and even was barely winning along with his losses.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."
From Thomas Hauser
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.
Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Yeah, saying no was kind of bad but he could of just shrugged it off and walked away from it... like you said it's the contradictions, bargaining, back tracking and out right lying which have hurt him the most.
An utter PR disaster.
Right, but my point was also that Pac and Cos reaction was what gave the whole thing traction. If he had reacted with a no compromise approach, he may not have had to walk away. Ultimately the sport may be the better for it, as the light that has shown on the issue could bring updated testing procedures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.
And right or wrong on the part of PBF, Pac had the opportunity to quiet a lot of that speculation...
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.
Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.
KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.
Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
Because Pac is just that good.
Simultaneously ruling 126, 135 and 147 is more astonishing but somebody has done it before.
IF he's bloating in betweein fights training 2 hrs per day and drinking as opten as he want then we might wonder...but he's not. He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.
There's a logical explanation on why he's performing this way and its not based on speculation.
Al Bernstein recently wrote. “Manny Pacquiao is one of the hardest working and most disciplined fighters in the sport. Manny Pacquiao’s success as he moved up in weight has been fueled mostly by a change in style and tactics rather than added strength. One of the most astonishing things to me is the folks who somehow believe that all of a sudden it’s reasonable to assume that Pacquiao, above all other boxers, needs a special set of testing rules to participate in a big fight. No performance enhancing drugs can change your technique. It was not power that made the difference. The difference was speed, ring generalship, combination punching, and a vastly improved defense.”
-From Thomas Hauser article
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.
Id like to add that Pac was fast as a Featherweight. He's 3 times faster now compared againts Welterweights. He's not just fast but he has power. Big or not if you're getting hit tons of time you'll get knocked out.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miron_lang
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.
Id like to add that Pac was fast as a Featherweight. He's 3 times faster now compared againts Welterweights. He's not just fast but he has power.
Big or not if you're getting hit tons of time you'll get knocked out.
Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Its not black and white like that. JuanMa would have a field day hitting Clottey but do you think JuanMa KOs Clottey? You still need the power in relation to your speed to KO these bigger guys. Clean or not, Pac has that.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.
Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.
KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.
Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.
KOs are not meaningless. De la Hoya did have that explosiveness at the lower weights. And its not like Pac fought easy opponents. In a debate I'm open to whatever is reasonably possible. Obviously you don't believe Pac was on any PEDs. But do you think its possible that Pac is/was on PEDs? If not, then we'll just be arguing in circles and we should leave it alone.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miron_lang
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
Because Pac is just that good.
Simultaneously ruling 126, 135 and 147 is more astonishing but somebody has done it before.
IF he's bloating in betweein fights training 2 hrs per day and drinking as opten as he want then we might wonder...but he's not.
He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.
There's a logical explanation on why he's performing this way and its not based on speculation.
Al Bernstein recently wrote. “Manny Pacquiao is one of the hardest working and most disciplined fighters in the sport. Manny Pacquiao’s success as he moved up in weight has been fueled mostly by a change in style and tactics rather than added strength. One of the most astonishing things to me is the folks who somehow believe that all of a sudden it’s reasonable to assume that Pacquiao, above all other boxers, needs a special set of testing rules to participate in a big fight.
No performance enhancing drugs can change your technique. It was not power that made the difference. The difference was speed, ring generalship, combination punching, and a vastly improved defense.”
-From Thomas Hauser article
By stating these things this only aids people's speculations. His trainer saying Pac has gotten stronger and faster has he moved up. His trainer even suggested so stupidly that Pac doesn't even know what he is giving him. This completely contradicts what Freddie Roach said in that Pac has trouble even accepting a multivitamin from him. Stating Pac is able to workout like an animal harder than anyone. This is actually one of the things PEDs help you do to surpass what is normal. You're able to workout much longer, harder, and recover quicker. Statements like these aren't helping Pac. Pac's team has said some very irresponsible and/or contradicting things. His team has hurt his cause a lot also.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miron_lang
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
Because Pac is just that good.
Simultaneously ruling 126, 135 and 147 is more astonishing but somebody has done it before.
IF he's bloating in betweein fights training 2 hrs per day and drinking as opten as he want then we might wonder...but he's not.
He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.
There's a logical explanation on why he's performing this way and its not based on speculation.
Al Bernstein recently wrote. “Manny Pacquiao is one of the hardest working and most disciplined fighters in the sport. Manny Pacquiao’s success as he moved up in weight has been fueled mostly by a change in style and tactics rather than added strength. One of the most astonishing things to me is the folks who somehow believe that all of a sudden it’s reasonable to assume that Pacquiao, above all other boxers, needs a special set of testing rules to participate in a big fight.
No performance enhancing drugs can change your technique. It was not power that made the difference. The difference was speed, ring generalship, combination punching, and a vastly improved defense.”
-From Thomas Hauser article
By stating these things this only aids people's speculations. His trainer saying Pac has gotten stronger and faster has he moved up. His trainer even suggested so stupidly that Pac doesn't even know what he is giving him. This completely contradicts what Freddie Roach said in that Pac has trouble even accepting a multivitamin from him. Stating Pac is able to workout like an animal harder than anyone. This is actually one of the things PEDs help you do to surpass what is normal. You're able to workout much longer, harder, and recover quicker. Statements like these aren't helping Pac. Pac's team has said some very irresponsible and/or contradicting things. His team has hurt his cause a lot also.
Well he trains hard that would normally result to success. that is very simple. Even before he made it big its well known that he doesnt take a day off even if roach asked him to rest. All the accusation/Questions are logically explainable with logic data and evidence. From the weight, KO's pct etc. There's nothing unexplainable about what pac has accomplished its just so unbelievable that colegues like Sr, Malinaggi felt the need to "Explain" how it is possible.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.
KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.
Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.
KOs are not meaningless. De la Hoya did have that explosiveness at the lower weights. And its not like Pac fought easy opponents. In a debate I'm open to whatever is reasonably possible. Obviously you don't believe Pac was on any PEDs. But do you think its possible that Pac is/was on PEDs? If not, then we'll just be arguing in circles and we should leave it alone.
It doesn't matter whether or not Pac was on PEDs. I'm saying you can't use KO percentage to judge the power of two differnent fighters, with two different styles, fighting different opponents as they move up in weight.
If Pac took drugs then i'm sure they made him more powerful. But he was an aggressive, KO puncher at the lighterweights.. so hardly surprising he still KO's people up in weight.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Pac's KO rate went up as he went up
When exactly did he start using PEDs then?
His record from Flyweight (WBC title win) to Welterweight reads - 23 wins by KO/TKO, 5 fights went the distance.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blegit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."
From Thomas Hauser
Floyd pretty much
stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
Same thing with De la Hoya. At 130 and 135 Oscar was KO'ing everybody having about a 90% KO rate. From 140 on he was having trouble KOing (about a 50% rate) and even was barely winning along with his losses.
Are you for real mate? Do you not think the main reason for this was his level of opposistion? His level at 130 and 135 to 140+ is like chalk and cheese.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
I think Pacman was just fighting at too small of a weight to begin with.
I think your right...even on his first 112 lbs title Pac can't even defend the title i think it was first title defense bcoz of overweight killing himself too much and likely was beaten and lose.
If we look out closely in his previous opponent (pre Barrera) he was bigger and taller most to his opponent, with the exception with Nadal Hussien at 122.
No doubt he was really tryin to be small at the beginning, when i look at him he was really malnourished on that time coz of hardships comin from a third world.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miron_lang
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.
That is such a bullshit statement - How do you measure how hard he is working compared to the next fighter? It's a highly arrogant statement to make. Are you also saying that the reason he is knocking so many bigger guys out is because he "works harder" than them? So basically if Mallignagi worked out harder he would have KO'd more opponents too :rolleyes:
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
@althougz
Pac has always have good K.O ratio coz
he's a brawler a puncher fighter always want to attack guy, he's no defensive specialist or can box like Floyd nor Malignaggi also have speed accuracy without the problem of weight draining at Welters like others had.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lance Uppercut
"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."
From Thomas Hauser
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.
As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight. Manny is beating the shit out of elite welterweights. Almost every time he hit Cotto he was hurting him, he almost stopped him in the second round. That's just not normal.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miron_lang
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
Because Pac is just that good.
Simultaneously ruling 126, 135 and 147 is more astonishing but somebody has done it before.
IF he's bloating in betweein fights training 2 hrs per day and drinking as opten as he want then we might wonder...but he's not. He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.
There's a logical explanation on why he's performing this way and its not based on speculation.
Al Bernstein recently wrote. “Manny Pacquiao is one of the hardest working and most disciplined fighters in the sport. Manny Pacquiao’s success as he moved up in weight has been fueled mostly by a change in style and tactics rather than added strength. One of the most astonishing things to me is the folks who somehow believe that all of a sudden it’s reasonable to assume that Pacquiao, above all other boxers, needs a special set of testing rules to participate in a big fight.
No performance enhancing drugs can change your technique. It was not power that made the difference. The difference was speed, ring generalship, combination punching, and a vastly improved defense.”
-From Thomas Hauser article
Yes, he's the hardest-working fighter in the sport, like Roger Clemens was the hardest working pitcher in baseball and Barry Bonds the hardest working hitter. Pac is so hard working he only spends half the time that all other elite fighters do making movies and records, campaigning for political office etc. And all those marathon eight week training camps! Who ever heard of another fighter having an eight week training camp?
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.
As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight. Manny is beating the shit out of elite welterweights. Almost every time he hit Cotto he was hurting him, he almost stopped him in the second round. That's just not normal.
Cotto never had a great chin. It would have been more surprising if Pac didn't hurt him, considering what we saw against Hatton and Oscar.
As a general rule fighters punches don't have the same effect against naturally bigger men, but there have been plenty of fighters moving through the weights stopping bigger guys - Hearns, Duran, Oscar, etc...
Maybe Pac is a drug cheat. But taking into account his style and the fact he's been sparking guys his entire career, he's the perfect candidate for a fighter retaining his power.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
BTW, does anyone knows what happened to the emails from Pac's team supposedly wanting to keep his failed drug test a secret?
I sure wonder what happened to that claim? Surely it would be big news now and uncovered if it was true? Didn't Teddy Atlas say he saw them?
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
David Diaz took the punches pretty well actually, was he on roids then? Oscar took them pretty well. Hatton was an anomaly compared to the rest of his career. And Cotto probably could have gone the distance, granted Pacquaio's power did look good in that fight. I don't remember him being close to stopping Cotto in the second though.
Also his KO rate has always been pretty damn good against guys not named JMM. After his "step up" against Ledwaba he had 11 KO's in 15 fights against good opp, the non KO's were Sanchez, first Morales, second Barrera and Larios. And honestly you can make reasonable excuses for some of those fights. Morales of that first fight was unlikely to be stopped by just about anybody, second Barrera fight he seemed content to cruise a lot more than usual, the Sanchez fight was just odd and dirty and ended early.
I actually would be more surprised if he hadn't been on something, he obviously looks like he's hiding something. But just saying, all the speculation outside of that can be argued against easily, the putting on weight thing is not that hard to counter and really so is the power thing. One punch power is far from the reason he stopped ODLH, it took 9 rounds of bludgeoning to stop David Diaz, he took out Hatton early but Hatton had just been badly hurt by Juan Lazcano and hurt by lesser punchers like Collazo, and Cotto never had the greatest chin and still could have finished the fight.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miron_lang
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.
Because Pac is just that good.
Simultaneously ruling 126, 135 and 147 is more astonishing but somebody has done it before.
IF he's bloating in betweein fights training 2 hrs per day and drinking as opten as he want then we might wonder...but he's not. He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.
There's a logical explanation on why he's performing this way and its not based on speculation.
Al Bernstein recently wrote. “Manny Pacquiao is one of the hardest working and most disciplined fighters in the sport. Manny Pacquiao’s success as he moved up in weight has been fueled mostly by a change in style and tactics rather than added strength. One of the most astonishing things to me is the folks who somehow believe that all of a sudden it’s reasonable to assume that Pacquiao, above all other boxers, needs a special set of testing rules to participate in a big fight.
No performance enhancing drugs can change your technique. It was not power that made the difference. The difference was speed, ring generalship, combination punching, and a vastly improved defense.”
-From Thomas Hauser article
Yes, he's the hardest-working fighter in the sport, like Roger Clemens was the hardest working pitcher in baseball and Barry Bonds the hardest working hitter. Pac is so hard working he only spends half the time that all other elite fighters do making movies and records, campaigning for political office etc. And all those marathon eight week training camps! Who ever heard of another fighter having an eight week training camp?
8-9 week camps are the norm, the only fighters who have longer camps who have more weight to shift.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
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Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.
As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight. Manny is beating the shit out of elite welterweights. Almost every time he hit Cotto he was hurting him, he almost stopped him in the second round. That's just not normal.
Cotto never had a great chin. It would have been more surprising if Pac didn't hurt him, considering what we saw against Hatton and Oscar.
As a general rule fighters punches don't have the same effect against naturally bigger men, but there have been plenty of fighters moving through the weights stopping bigger guys - Hearns, Duran, Oscar, etc...
Maybe Pac is a drug cheat. But taking into account his style and the fact he's been sparking guys his entire career, he's the perfect candidate for a fighter retaining his power.
But when you saw Manny vs. Cotto it was the guy who started at 106 that had all the power and Cotto looked like he was the one who came up from 106. I just don't see how you can go from moving up to featherweight, losing to a shot Erik Morales and having a 39-3-2 record with 30 kos in 44 fights at weights from 106 to 130 and then going 11-0 with eight kos against higher weights. I think he moved up to 130, lost to Morales, realised he had nothing at the weight and started cheating.
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Re: Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac
pac has been plague by weight issues on the lower weights. he just out grew lower weights. during those days he struggled to get his weight down hence losing stock stamina for the fight.
pac is an explosive boxer style wise he needs plenty of stamina to be effective. goin higher than 130lbs was easy on his body, he didnt needed to lose all that weight.
brawler/punch in bunches needs speed and stamina, higher weight division less weight draining equals more stamina and more speed.
alot of his previous opponents said that pac didnt hit that hard. he just hits so fast and too many.
i guess pac took very little peds when he fought odlh and jmm, took too many when he fought hatton and cotto. lol
"As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight."
they lose speed as you move up too, but the guys in the higher weights are naturally slower than smaller guys. so pac is usually faster than the naturally heavier guys.
