Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac

[Fenster]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

[blegit]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

Same thing with De la Hoya. At 130 and 135 Oscar was KO'ing everybody having about a 90% KO rate. From 140 on he was having trouble KOing (about a 50% rate) and even was barely winning along with his losses.

[blegit]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

[Myk_Myk]

Yeah, saying no was kind of bad but he could of just shrugged it off and walked away from it... like you said it's the contradictions, bargaining, back tracking and out right lying which have hurt him the most.

An utter PR disaster.

Right, but my point was also that Pac and Cos reaction was what gave the whole thing traction. If he had reacted with a no compromise approach, he may not have had to walk away. Ultimately the sport may be the better for it, as the light that has shown on the issue could bring updated testing procedures.

And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

And right or wrong on the part of PBF, Pac had the opportunity to quiet a lot of that speculation...

[Fenster]

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.

Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.

[miron_lang]

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

Because Pac is just that good.

Simultaneously ruling 126, 135 and 147 is more astonishing but somebody has done it before.


IF he's bloating in betweein fights training 2 hrs per day and drinking as opten as he want then we might wonder...but he's not. He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.


There's a logical explanation on why he's performing this way and its not based on speculation.

Al Bernstein recently wrote. “Manny Pacquiao is one of the hardest working and most disciplined fighters in the sport. Manny Pacquiao’s success as he moved up in weight has been fueled mostly by a change in style and tactics rather than added strength. One of the most astonishing things to me is the folks who somehow believe that all of a sudden it’s reasonable to assume that Pacquiao, above all other boxers, needs a special set of testing rules to participate in a big fight. No performance enhancing drugs can change your technique. It was not power that made the difference. The difference was speed, ring generalship, combination punching, and a vastly improved defense.”

-From Thomas Hauser article

[miron_lang]

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

Id like to add that Pac was fast as a Featherweight. He's 3 times faster now compared againts Welterweights. He's not just fast but he has power. Big or not if you're getting hit tons of time you'll get knocked out.

[blegit]

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

Id like to add that Pac was fast as a Featherweight. He's 3 times faster now compared againts Welterweights. He's not just fast but he has power. Big or not if you're getting hit tons of time you'll get knocked out.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Its not black and white like that. JuanMa would have a field day hitting Clottey but do you think JuanMa KOs Clottey? You still need the power in relation to your speed to KO these bigger guys. Clean or not, Pac has that.

[blegit]

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.

Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.

KOs are not meaningless. De la Hoya did have that explosiveness at the lower weights. And its not like Pac fought easy opponents. In a debate I'm open to whatever is reasonably possible. Obviously you don't believe Pac was on any PEDs. But do you think its possible that Pac is/was on PEDs? If not, then we'll just be arguing in circles and we should leave it alone.

[blegit]

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

Because Pac is just that good.

Simultaneously ruling 126, 135 and 147 is more astonishing but somebody has done it before.


IF he's bloating in betweein fights training 2 hrs per day and drinking as opten as he want then we might wonder...but he's not. He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.


There's a logical explanation on why he's performing this way and its not based on speculation.

Al Bernstein recently wrote. “Manny Pacquiao is one of the hardest working and most disciplined fighters in the sport. Manny Pacquiao’s success as he moved up in weight has been fueled mostly by a change in style and tactics rather than added strength. One of the most astonishing things to me is the folks who somehow believe that all of a sudden it’s reasonable to assume that Pacquiao, above all other boxers, needs a special set of testing rules to participate in a big fight. No performance enhancing drugs can change your technique. It was not power that made the difference. The difference was speed, ring generalship, combination punching, and a vastly improved defense.”

-From Thomas Hauser article

By stating these things this only aids people's speculations. His trainer saying Pac has gotten stronger and faster has he moved up. His trainer even suggested so stupidly that Pac doesn't even know what he is giving him. This completely contradicts what Freddie Roach said in that Pac has trouble even accepting a multivitamin from him. Stating Pac is able to workout like an animal harder than anyone. This is actually one of the things PEDs help you do to surpass what is normal. You're able to workout much longer, harder, and recover quicker. Statements like these aren't helping Pac. Pac's team has said some very irresponsible and/or contradicting things. His team has hurt his cause a lot also.

[miron_lang]

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

Because Pac is just that good.

Simultaneously ruling 126, 135 and 147 is more astonishing but somebody has done it before.


IF he's bloating in betweein fights training 2 hrs per day and drinking as opten as he want then we might wonder...but he's not. He trains like an animal way way beyond normal compared to other fighters.


There's a logical explanation on why he's performing this way and its not based on speculation.

Al Bernstein recently wrote. “Manny Pacquiao is one of the hardest working and most disciplined fighters in the sport. Manny Pacquiao’s success as he moved up in weight has been fueled mostly by a change in style and tactics rather than added strength. One of the most astonishing things to me is the folks who somehow believe that all of a sudden it’s reasonable to assume that Pacquiao, above all other boxers, needs a special set of testing rules to participate in a big fight. No performance enhancing drugs can change your technique. It was not power that made the difference. The difference was speed, ring generalship, combination punching, and a vastly improved defense.”

-From Thomas Hauser article

By stating these things this only aids people's speculations. His trainer saying Pac has gotten stronger and faster has he moved up. His trainer even suggested so stupidly that Pac doesn't even know what he is giving him. This completely contradicts what Freddie Roach said in that Pac has trouble even accepting a multivitamin from him. Stating Pac is able to workout like an animal harder than anyone. This is actually one of the things PEDs help you do to surpass what is normal. You're able to workout much longer, harder, and recover quicker. Statements like these aren't helping Pac. Pac's team has said some very irresponsible and/or contradicting things. His team has hurt his cause a lot also.

Well he trains hard that would normally result to success. that is very simple. Even before he made it big its well known that he doesnt take a day off even if roach asked him to rest. All the accusation/Questions are logically explainable with logic data and evidence. From the weight, KO's pct etc. There's nothing unexplainable about what pac has accomplished its just so unbelievable that colegues like Sr, Malinaggi felt the need to "Explain" how it is possible.

[Fenster]

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.

Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.

KOs are not meaningless. De la Hoya did have that explosiveness at the lower weights. And its not like Pac fought easy opponents. In a debate I'm open to whatever is reasonably possible. Obviously you don't believe Pac was on any PEDs. But do you think its possible that Pac is/was on PEDs? If not, then we'll just be arguing in circles and we should leave it alone.

It doesn't matter whether or not Pac was on PEDs. I'm saying you can't use KO percentage to judge the power of two differnent fighters, with two different styles, fighting different opponents as they move up in weight.

If Pac took drugs then i'm sure they made him more powerful. But he was an aggressive, KO puncher at the lighterweights.. so hardly surprising he still KO's people up in weight.

[Fenster]

Pac's KO rate went up as he went up

When exactly did he start using PEDs then?

His record from Flyweight (WBC title win) to Welterweight reads - 23 wins by KO/TKO, 5 fights went the distance.

[skel1983]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

Same thing with De la Hoya. At 130 and 135 Oscar was KO'ing everybody having about a 90% KO rate. From 140 on he was having trouble KOing (about a 50% rate) and even was barely winning along with his losses.

Are you for real mate? Do you not think the main reason for this was his level of opposistion? His level at 130 and 135 to 140+ is like chalk and cheese.

[UKPH]

I think Pacman was just fighting at too small of a weight to begin with.

I think your right...even on his first 112 lbs title Pac can't even defend the title i think it was first title defense bcoz of overweight killing himself too much and likely was beaten and lose.

If we look out closely in his previous opponent (pre Barrera) he was bigger and taller most to his opponent, with the exception with Nadal Hussien at 122.

No doubt he was really tryin to be small at the beginning, when i look at him he was really malnourished on that time coz of hardships comin from a third world.