Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac

[Jody Lane]

^hahaha, straight to the point... unlike my rant!

Yes, I should also mention that ODLH being 5 foot 11 might have something to do with it...

Sometimes it's not a case of a fighter forcing their weight up... it's just that they've stopped forcing their weight down.

I agree with all that. I was going to mention something about Arturo Gatti fighting at 140 but coming in figh night at 151. As far as the not wanting to take the tests, if someone called me a cheater with no basis or evidence other than I moved up in weight, I might tell them to take a hike. Then again for 40 million other reasons I'd take the damn test and try to beat the shit out of them.

[Lance Uppercut]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

[Lance Uppercut]

Hauser also noted this about Evander Holyfield and steroids:

"On August 29, 2006, federal Drug Enforcement Agency officials in Alabama raided a compounding pharmacy (a pharmacy that makes its own drugs generically) called Applied Pharmacy Services. Among the documents seized were records stating that, in June 2004, a patient named “Evan Fields” picked up three vials of testosterone and related injection supplies from a doctor in Columbus, Georgia. That same month, Fields received five vials of Saizen (a human growth hormone). In September 2004, according to the documents, Fields underwent treatment for hypogonadism (a condition that results when the sex glands produce little or no hormones). The date of birth, home address, and telephone number listed for Evan Fields in Applied Pharmacy’s records were identical to those of Evander Holyfield.

The New York Times reported in 1995 that, after Holyfield lost his heavyweight championship to Michael Moorer, Evander was diagnosed as having a non-compliant left ventricle (one of four chambers in the human heart), which caused a dangerous build-up of fluids. That diagnosis, according to the Times, was confirmed by two sets of tests, the second round being conducted at Emory University in Atlanta.

Holyfield was tested a number of times for steroids in Nevada. The tests all came back negative. He was not tested by the Nevada commission for human growth hormone or EPO.

[Jody Lane]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Thanks Lance for the good point

[Kirkland Laing]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

[Fenster]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

[blegit]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

[Fenster]

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.

Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.

[blegit]

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.

Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.

KOs are not meaningless. De la Hoya did have that explosiveness at the lower weights. And its not like Pac fought easy opponents. In a debate I'm open to whatever is reasonably possible. Obviously you don't believe Pac was on any PEDs. But do you think its possible that Pac is/was on PEDs? If not, then we'll just be arguing in circles and we should leave it alone.

[miron_lang]

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

Id like to add that Pac was fast as a Featherweight. He's 3 times faster now compared againts Welterweights. He's not just fast but he has power. Big or not if you're getting hit tons of time you'll get knocked out.

[blegit]

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

Id like to add that Pac was fast as a Featherweight. He's 3 times faster now compared againts Welterweights. He's not just fast but he has power. Big or not if you're getting hit tons of time you'll get knocked out.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Its not black and white like that. JuanMa would have a field day hitting Clottey but do you think JuanMa KOs Clottey? You still need the power in relation to your speed to KO these bigger guys. Clean or not, Pac has that.

[Fenster]

Pac's KO rate went up as he went up

When exactly did he start using PEDs then?

His record from Flyweight (WBC title win) to Welterweight reads - 23 wins by KO/TKO, 5 fights went the distance.

[Kirkland Laing]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight. Manny is beating the shit out of elite welterweights. Almost every time he hit Cotto he was hurting him, he almost stopped him in the second round. That's just not normal.

[Fenster]

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight. Manny is beating the shit out of elite welterweights. Almost every time he hit Cotto he was hurting him, he almost stopped him in the second round. That's just not normal.

Cotto never had a great chin. It would have been more surprising if Pac didn't hurt him, considering what we saw against Hatton and Oscar.

As a general rule fighters punches don't have the same effect against naturally bigger men, but there have been plenty of fighters moving through the weights stopping bigger guys - Hearns, Duran, Oscar, etc...

Maybe Pac is a drug cheat. But taking into account his style and the fact he's been sparking guys his entire career, he's the perfect candidate for a fighter retaining his power.

[generalbulldog]

BTW, does anyone knows what happened to the emails from Pac's team supposedly wanting to keep his failed drug test a secret?

I sure wonder what happened to that claim? Surely it would be big news now and uncovered if it was true? Didn't Teddy Atlas say he saw them?