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How the hell did margarito knock this dude out??? I mean he got hit by pavlik, took most of the punches just fine, got hit by a middleweight williams didn't seem to bothered, cintron known for having power hit him clean too...was he just a way different fighter 8 years ago, inexperienced, or an off night or god knows nothing is to low for marg....don't feel like looking for the fight at the moment on youtube or somewhere...
Well personally thats one of the reason's i thought Kelly Pavlik would win, but i underrated Sergio Martinez. He has improved and that was at Welterweight in 2000, if i was Sergio Martinez i'd have a rematch at 154 where Antonio Margarito isn't as effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Margarito won because he swarmed Martinez's body early. Martinez had not fully developed his footwork yet. It really is that simple.
Screw marg tho I hope no credible fighter gets in the ring with him....altho I could see why martinez would want to for the redemption factor.
Well I guess that answers my question killer, because I was dumbfounded for a minute...lol
Yea i agree im not saying Sergio Martinez needs the fight, far from it actually. The world is his oyster at the moment, but im just saying if he wanted redemtpion. Then at 154 where Antonio Margarito has struggled in the past, would be the best bet for Sergio Martinez.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Yeah, Pavlik and Margarito are both swarmers but their punches are very different, Pavlik is much stronger, but Margarito is much better at cutting off the ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Volume,maturity,styles.And I dont think Margarito has ever met a punch he didnt mind getting hit in the face with to land his own.
Maybe margarito had loaded gloves back then also. Who the fukk nos. hope Martinez does fight him again so he can wip that cheating mutherfukkers ass
Scary, but now that I think about it, I could really see Margarito-Martinez getting some attention. For me it would be a chance for Martinez to avenge him only loss.
Margarito would take any fight right now, though. He is just about zero reward. I want Martinez to defend the title once before taking on Williams in Atlantic City, where he was well receive Saturday!
Oh and the first Marg fight?? Martinez had only been fighting for about 4-5 years. Just shows how tough he is overall! How the hell did he get thrown in there with the Lions that early?
Martinez really did not have an amateur career. At this point in his career, he was still learning while on the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy448
Exactley what I thought of. Margarito probably had bricks in his hands for this fight as well. Either way I would like to see a rematch with Pavlik or Margarito.
It was a long time ago Martinez a different fighter then...Though he has always had the hands down style...If Pavlik was any quicker Martinez would have gotten caught more...Possibly KO'd...There were a few shots that he showed he felt....He stopped his showboating ASAP..Until Kelly was cut on the right eye...
Yep definately 3 acts in that fightQuote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
ACT I. Martinez uses his speed and lateral movement to potshot and control
ACT II. Pavlik counters jab over jab and lands a few strong rights.
ACT III. A cut, blinded, and tired Pavlik has nothing left to retaliate with, but hangs in for the duration, Martinez takes is back under control.
Daxx, how much credit do you Martinez for this win?
TBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by killersheepYep definately 3 acts in that fightQuote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
ACT I. Martinez uses his speed and lateral movement to potshot and control
ACT II. Pavlik counters jab over jab and lands a few strong rights.
ACT III. A cut, blinded, and tired Pavlik has nothing left to retaliate with, but hangs in for the duration, Martinez takes is back under control.
Daxx, how much credit do you Martinez for this win?
What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?
I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....
The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)
Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?
For being as fast as he is at 35, I have to give him a lot of credit he came in the smaller man against a very very strong Middleweight ( who also happened to be the champ ) Martinez has a pretty good record IMO, he straight up got robbed twice against Cintron, and did very very well against Williams. I mean I don't know who else at 160 or 154 he would have to fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnTBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by killersheepYep definately 3 acts in that fightQuote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
ACT I. Martinez uses his speed and lateral movement to potshot and control
ACT II. Pavlik counters jab over jab and lands a few strong rights.
ACT III. A cut, blinded, and tired Pavlik has nothing left to retaliate with, but hangs in for the duration, Martinez takes is back under control.
Daxx, how much credit do you Martinez for this win?
What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?
I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....
The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)
Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?
If Pavlik chooses not to take the rematch clause who would he have to beat at 160 or 154 to prove his ability and improve his resume?
I personally don';t know why he would want to stay at MW just for that reason...154 is starting to pick up again...that is where the money is!!!....Like you said he is 35...not many years left this is the time to cash in while your name is hot....Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepFor being as fast as he is at 35, I have to give him a lot of credit he came in the smaller man against a very very strong Middleweight ( who also happened to be the champ ) Martinez has a pretty good record IMO, he straight up got robbed twice against Cintron, and did very very well against Williams. I mean I don't know who else at 160 or 154 he would have to fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnTBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?
I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....
The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)
Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?
If Pavlik chooses not to take the rematch clause who would he have to beat at 160 or 154 to prove his ability and improve his resume?
I give him credit for being the smaller man (Maybe I said it in another thread) and like I said he came in from another weight class and beat the champion...Not a title holder but Champion....have to give credit for that but I am just not sold on him yet as a superstar....I mean someone posted on another thread or maybe this one that he is top 5 P4P?.....This win does not put him in the top 5
Yeah I hear ya, it's pretty common for people to blow up fighters after a big win. The only guy in his weightclass range (I'm assuming 154-160) that I think really trumps him style vs. style is Foreman and that's because of his own speed and movement. Something that's really telling though are the faces of Martinez's last opponents. People keep saying he's hittable, he gets hit WAY too much and all that, but he's not marking maybe he has that Andrade gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnI personally don';t know why he would want to stay at MW just for that reason...154 is starting to pick up again...that is where the money is!!!....Like you said he is 35...not many years left this is the time to cash in while your name is hot....Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepFor being as fast as he is at 35, I have to give him a lot of credit he came in the smaller man against a very very strong Middleweight ( who also happened to be the champ ) Martinez has a pretty good record IMO, he straight up got robbed twice against Cintron, and did very very well against Williams. I mean I don't know who else at 160 or 154 he would have to fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
If Pavlik chooses not to take the rematch clause who would he have to beat at 160 or 154 to prove his ability and improve his resume?
I give him credit for being the smaller man (Maybe I said it in another thread) and like I said he came in from another weight class and beat the champion...Not a title holder but Champion....have to give credit for that but I am just not sold on him yet as a superstar....I mean someone posted on another thread or maybe this one that he is top 5 P4P?.....This win does not put him in the top 5
Pavlik - 3 cuts caused by punches (Martinez mouse under one eye)
Williams - 2 cuts caused by punches (Martinez unmarked)
Cintron - Small cut, and swollen eye from punches (Martinez unmarked)
Bunema - both eyes almost swollen shut (Martinez unmarked)
I don't know of the punchstats of past fights but Pavlik barely hit him...Though he did have a mouse under one eye....He may be one of those guys who just don't swell and cut easily....Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepYeah I hear ya, it's pretty common for people to blow up fighters after a big win. The only guy in his weightclass range (I'm assuming 154-160) that I think really trumps him style vs. style is Foreman and that's because of his own speed and movement. Something that's really telling though are the faces of Martinez's last opponents. People keep saying he's hittable, he gets hit WAY too much and all that, but he's not marking maybe he has that Andrade gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnI personally don';t know why he would want to stay at MW just for that reason...154 is starting to pick up again...that is where the money is!!!....Like you said he is 35...not many years left this is the time to cash in while your name is hot....Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
I give him credit for being the smaller man (Maybe I said it in another thread) and like I said he came in from another weight class and beat the champion...Not a title holder but Champion....have to give credit for that but I am just not sold on him yet as a superstar....I mean someone posted on another thread or maybe this one that he is top 5 P4P?.....This win does not put him in the top 5
Pavlik - 3 cuts caused by punches (Martinez mouse under one eye)
Williams - 2 cuts caused by punches (Martinez unmarked)
Cintron - Small cut, and swollen eye from punches (Martinez unmarked)
Bunema - both eyes almost swollen shut (Martinez unmarked)
As for the damage he inflicts on others well we know he is not a hard hitter he only has like a 50% KO ratio but I think he is one of those guys who twist the glove as he lands...He is already on the backslide when he lands he avoids shots well...Like I said before I think that is what catches these guys off guard....BUT none of these guys are really fast either...I mentioned Foreman in another thread about facing Martinez....Not saying he would beat him just that Martinez would not get away with keeping his hands down all the time....I would love to see how he reacts to a fight where he is the slower man?
I think only Foreman and maybe Danny Jacobs fit that bill (as to making Martinez the slower man). I think he has shown he can be competitive at the elite level and is due credit for being what he is. If he had been in a more profitable market for longer in his career he certainly have had more opportunities to make his case. Fighters from Argentina usually have a hard time getting the big fights unless they are considered walkovers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnI don't know of the punchstats of past fights but Pavlik barely hit him...Though he did have a mouse under one eye....He may be one of those guys who just don't swell and cut easily....Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepYeah I hear ya, it's pretty common for people to blow up fighters after a big win. The only guy in his weightclass range (I'm assuming 154-160) that I think really trumps him style vs. style is Foreman and that's because of his own speed and movement. Something that's really telling though are the faces of Martinez's last opponents. People keep saying he's hittable, he gets hit WAY too much and all that, but he's not marking maybe he has that Andrade gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Pavlik - 3 cuts caused by punches (Martinez mouse under one eye)
Williams - 2 cuts caused by punches (Martinez unmarked)
Cintron - Small cut, and swollen eye from punches (Martinez unmarked)
Bunema - both eyes almost swollen shut (Martinez unmarked)
As for the damage he inflicts on others well we know he is not a hard hitter he only has like a 50% KO ratio but I think he is one of those guys who twist the glove as he lands...He is already on the backslide when he lands he avoids shots well...Like I said before I think that is what catches these guys off guard....BUT none of these guys are really fast either...I mentioned Foreman in another thread about facing Martinez....Not saying he would beat him just that Martinez would not get away with keeping his hands down all the time....I would love to see how he reacts to a fight where he is the slower man?
As for Martinez, I think he can hit plenty hard, but he tends to focus on conserving energy in everything he does, from his punch output to keeping his hands down, afterall how can you showboat when you're gassed? I don't really care if he's on a p4p list or not because that's completely subject unless you use Hughley's magic p4p formula, but equal in speculation is saying that couldn't have adjusted again later in the fight or that Pavlik wouldn't have gassed out, it's all speculation.
According to Compubox
Pavlik - 164/533 31% Total punches, 77/339 Jabs 23%, 87/194 Power punches 45%
Martinez - 230/686 34% Total Punches, 58/302 19%, 172/384 power punches 45%
New Page 1
We will see what happens...I can't say anything bad about the guy other then he is a bit arrogant and showboats too much but other then that he is a good fighter....I just need to see more of him at the top top tier...I only seen Cintron, Williams and Pavlik recently...I seen the loss to Maragrito and a few scattered fights here and there....I never thought much of Cintron, IMO Williams has trouble with mover and boxers like he did with Quintana the first time and the Pavlik fight was just crazy...Winning getting beat then the cut going his way.....Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepI think only Foreman and maybe Danny Jacobs fit that bill (as to making Martinez the slower man). I think he has shown he can be competitive at the elite level and is due credit for being what he is. If he had been in a more profitable market for longer in his career he certainly have had more opportunities to make his case. Fighters from Argentina usually have a hard time getting the big fights unless they are considered walkovers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnI don't know of the punchstats of past fights but Pavlik barely hit him...Though he did have a mouse under one eye....He may be one of those guys who just don't swell and cut easily....Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
As for the damage he inflicts on others well we know he is not a hard hitter he only has like a 50% KO ratio but I think he is one of those guys who twist the glove as he lands...He is already on the backslide when he lands he avoids shots well...Like I said before I think that is what catches these guys off guard....BUT none of these guys are really fast either...I mentioned Foreman in another thread about facing Martinez....Not saying he would beat him just that Martinez would not get away with keeping his hands down all the time....I would love to see how he reacts to a fight where he is the slower man?
As for Martinez, I think he can hit plenty hard, but he tends to focus on conserving energy in everything he does, from his punch output to keeping his hands down, afterall how can you showboat when you're gassed? I don't really care if he's on a p4p list or not because that's completely subject unless you use Hughley's magic p4p formula, but equal in speculation is saying that couldn't have adjusted again later in the fight or that Pavlik wouldn't have gassed out, it's all speculation.
According to Compubox
Pavlik - 164/533 31% Total punches, 77/339 Jabs 23%, 87/194 Power punches 45%
Martinez - 230/686 34% Total Punches, 58/302 19%, 172/384 power punches 45%
New Page 1
So I want to see him with a guy that is fair to him.....Size, close to speed, and who is a pure boxer....Though choices are slim....I actually would like to see him Vs Cotto....A guy who attacks the Body....I would like to see how Martinez does once his main asset is taken away....How is he when he has to slow down and is in a position he cant fight with his hands down so low....
Fair enough, maybe the Cotto/Foreman winner can fight Martinez? Either way those guys both have something to offer him in terms of challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnWe will see what happens...I can't say anything bad about the guy other then he is a bit arrogant and showboats too much but other then that he is a good fighter....I just need to see more of him at the top top tier...I only seen Cintron, Williams and Pavlik recently...I seen the loss to Maragrito and a few scattered fights here and there....I never thought much of Cintron, IMO Williams has trouble with mover and boxers like he did with Quintana the first time and the Pavlik fight was just crazy...Winning getting beat then the cut going his way.....Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepI think only Foreman and maybe Danny Jacobs fit that bill (as to making Martinez the slower man). I think he has shown he can be competitive at the elite level and is due credit for being what he is. If he had been in a more profitable market for longer in his career he certainly have had more opportunities to make his case. Fighters from Argentina usually have a hard time getting the big fights unless they are considered walkovers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
As for Martinez, I think he can hit plenty hard, but he tends to focus on conserving energy in everything he does, from his punch output to keeping his hands down, afterall how can you showboat when you're gassed? I don't really care if he's on a p4p list or not because that's completely subject unless you use Hughley's magic p4p formula, but equal in speculation is saying that couldn't have adjusted again later in the fight or that Pavlik wouldn't have gassed out, it's all speculation.
According to Compubox
Pavlik - 164/533 31% Total punches, 77/339 Jabs 23%, 87/194 Power punches 45%
Martinez - 230/686 34% Total Punches, 58/302 19%, 172/384 power punches 45%
New Page 1
So I want to see him with a guy that is fair to him.....Size, close to speed, and who is a pure boxer....Though choices are slim....I actually would like to see him Vs Cotto....A guy who attacks the Body....I would like to see how Martinez does once his main asset is taken away....How is he when he has to slow down and is in a position he cant fight with his hands down so low....
But add in his fights with Cintron & Williams & its an impressive run of fights!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnTBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by killersheepYep definately 3 acts in that fightQuote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
ACT I. Martinez uses his speed and lateral movement to potshot and control
ACT II. Pavlik counters jab over jab and lands a few strong rights.
ACT III. A cut, blinded, and tired Pavlik has nothing left to retaliate with, but hangs in for the duration, Martinez takes is back under control.
Daxx, how much credit do you Martinez for this win?
What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?
I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....
The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)
Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?
Agreed...I am just not sold on him as elite yet...I think he is a world class fighter who has the ability to upset anyone near his division but I won't say he is P4P or is he the best fighter even at 154Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyBut add in his fights with Cintron & Williams & its an impressive run of fights!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnTBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?
I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....
The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)
Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?
Who do you have ahead of him at 154? Light middle is really weak right now, there's some upcoming young guns, but the old guard has been really inactive.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnAgreed...I am just not sold on him as elite yet...I think he is a world class fighter who has the ability to upset anyone near his division but I won't say he is P4P or is he the best fighter even at 154Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyBut add in his fights with Cintron & Williams & its an impressive run of fights!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Will Martinez move back to 154?
His camp is debating that very question right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Cotto I put ahead of him....I mentioned somewhere on the forum that IMO Cotto has the perfect style to KO Martinez...Sergio moves a lot and depends on it to keep his opp off....Cotto knows how to cut the ring off...He has big body shots.....He will slow Martinez down....Martinez not a guy who can fight off ropes or is he comfortable in close.....Cotto once slowing him down would either force him to stand and fight or shell up on the ropes....Similar to the Malignaggi bout where he chases and beats him up but I don't think Martinez is a durable as Paulie was back then..Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepWho do you have ahead of him at 154? Light middle is really weak right now, there's some upcoming young guns, but the old guard has been really inactive.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnAgreed...I am just not sold on him as elite yet...I think he is a world class fighter who has the ability to upset anyone near his division but I won't say he is P4P or is he the best fighter even at 154Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
We already spoke of Foreman who IMO beats him just as fast and younger...Martinez I noticed in the Pavlik fight can not keep the gas on all 12 rds....He also does not have a really high output in punches..
Depending on what Version of Spinks shows up is another close one....He has a rematch with Williams due...Though they might just do that at MW.....If Williams rematch W Quintana showed us anything that is Williams comes more prepared for rematches....
Those are 4 good fights for him...I favor him only over Spinks but still good fight......People rather see him fight Cotto, Foreman, Williams as far as earning potential then just abt any MW..
Plus a few WW guys will be coming up in the next year....
Like I stated he is 35 and time for paychecks are running down....
Fair enough, I think this kind of gets to heart of how we look at him.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnCotto I put ahead of him....I mentioned somewhere on the forum that IMO Cotto has the perfect style to KO Martinez...Sergio moves a lot and depends on it to keep his opp off....Cotto knows how to cut the ring off...He has big body shots.....He will slow Martinez down....Martinez not a guy who can fight off ropes or is he comfortable in close.....Cotto once slowing him down would either force him to stand and fight or shell up on the ropes....Similar to the Malignaggi bout where he chases and beats him up but I don't think Martinez is a durable as Paulie was back then..Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepWho do you have ahead of him at 154? Light middle is really weak right now, there's some upcoming young guns, but the old guard has been really inactive.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
We already spoke of Foreman who IMO beats him just as fast and younger...Martinez I noticed in the Pavlik fight can not keep the gas on all 12 rds....He also does not have a really high output in punches..
Depending on what Version of Spinks shows up is another close one....He has a rematch with Williams due...Though they might just do that at MW.....If Williams rematch W Quintana showed us anything that is Williams comes more prepared for rematches....
Those are 4 good fights for him...I favor him only over Spinks but still good fight......People rather see him fight Cotto, Foreman, Williams as far as earning potential then just abt any MW..
Plus a few WW guys will be coming up in the next year....
Like I stated he is 35 and time for paychecks are running down....
I think Cotto is not what he used to be and whether or not his power carries up to 154 is completely unproven, not to mention his reach deficit increases considerably. Spinks is an old man himself, I don't think he really can get a crowd behind him even in his last fight against Latimore his home crowd was decidedly behind Latimore. The two fights at 154 that interest me the most are a Williams rematch and Foreman.
I think Martinez has had an impressive run. Theres a few question marks surround this fight. The fact That Martinez is should be at 154. Didnt he come in closer to his natural weight against Williams.? He seemed more sure of himself and also seemed more willing to engage Williams in the trenches. Can't say I blame him for staying out of range against a Pavlik who, rehydrated past the light heavyweight limit.
I find myself wanting to take points off for the showboating, but considering its half his game in creating his opportunities to use his speed. Its really hard to dislike this guy, except for the girly pouty face he was making in the post fight interview when he saw the mouse under his eye on camera. WTF was that about? lol