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Interested to see your views.
Maybe cause you are stupid and you have asked a very stupid questionQuote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
job biscuit (stupid boy)!!!
eh eh!!!
I think Leonard has a greater resume, which i percieve greatness to be about.
For me they would be alot closer if you were talking about which one was the better fighter out of the two rather than their respective 'greatness' if that makes any sense.
Complete sense and exactly my thoughts too.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeH
Compare the number of belts they both had and the amount of weight divisions they've had success in
I think belts and weightclasses are superficial in relation to the level of talent that a fighter faces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropanuke
Fair play to both of em though, they both made substantial climbs in weight.
SRL fought better opposition, but RJJ fought alot longer at the top. I think had RJJ retired after the John Ruiz fight he could of been higher IMO, i think the losses have hurt his legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
in terms of natural talent and athletic ability I say they're even, but Leonard has the better resume and not just on paper
he went 36 (25 KOs) with only 3 losses 2 coming at the end of his career, with wins over the likes of Benitez, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler, that alone is better than anyone that Jones beat, and Jones didn't just beat up on bums, both guys are great in their own right but IMO Leonard takes the cake
It comes down to quality or quantity, but im just going to stir the pot here a little. But does it matter that SRL got gift decisions vs Hearns, Hagler ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
I'd go with Leonard. I think he actually liked to fight. He traded with greats and the company he kept in peak era says alot.
Jones was unbeatable leonard wasnt
Leonard boxed in an era where there were no hws with any marketting pull so he and his weight classes got more exposure and therefore will always leave a bigger legacy and will more often get the vote
Jones was not unbeatable he got beat just like Leonard did but the comp they beat i don't know how Jones faced better fighters. As for there skills they were pretty equal Jones faster Leonard better chin.
He got beat past his prime, were talking about in his prime here. I mean honestly have you known a fighter dominate like RJJ for that length of time ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The only fights he was even in a little trouble was Harding, Griffin 1, and that was hardly any trouble its just they were more competitive, than pretty much any RJJ fight in his prime.
Only lose Lenoard had thats was even close to prime was Duran and i don't think he was even prime yet. Jones lost to Griffen that was a close fight dq or not. Both came back to erase the lose but still both lost.
Jones era was kinda weak and he was able to get some great wins like Tony and Bernard but besides that not to many stand outs really. I guess i could put a list of names that were dominated in weak eras.
Yep absoluitely - same as Tyson's have. But, as you know, these losses shouldn't be considered, the same way as nobody doubts Ali's prime, just because he losts to Spinks and Berbwick.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBSRL fought better opposition, but RJJ fought alot longer at the top. I think had RJJ retired after the John Ruiz fight he could of been higher IMO, i think the losses have hurt his legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Easily SRL, Jones doesn't even make my top 100 all-time.
Roy Jones acheived more, SRL had a short prime, the comeback from Hagler was all gimmick. SRL greatest victory was against Hearns and he showed heart. RJJ did not really have a defining fight, just collected the titles and made everything look easy.
This is a tough one for me. Not taking into account the people they fought, and just looking at their athletic ability, then I would go for Roy. Boxing skills and slickness, tough one, but again Roy in his prime was untouchable, best display of this was against Toney. The amount of opponents he goaded by placing his hands behind his back and countering was more than I've ever seen.
May get stick for this but im going to pick Roy as the greater 'fighter' of the two.
You know i was looking at that Greg Page vs Mike Tyson sparring footage again, before the Buster Douglas fight. This one had a bit more footage and Greg Page easily hits Mike Tyson, with a solid right hand and seems to be troubling him, before the knockdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HYep absoluitely - same as Tyson's have. But, as you know, these losses shouldn't be considered, the same way as nobody doubts Ali's prime, just because he losts to Spinks and Berbwick.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBSRL fought better opposition, but RJJ fought alot longer at the top. I think had RJJ retired after the John Ruiz fight he could of been higher IMO, i think the losses have hurt his legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Im just wondering was it how good Buster Douglas was, or how bad Mike Tyson was. I actually think a motivated Witherspoon, Page, would of upset Mike Tyson that night aswell.
Because both were making comebacks in the 90's, and actually got motivated again. And both fighters always had a sturdy chin and very good natural ability, more so than Douglas IMO.
That really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Leonard and it's not even close for me. Jones was one of the most talented fighters ever, perhaps the most talented fighter even, but SRL's resume is second to none and that is what greatness is all about.
I agree that nobody has a more impressive record of victims in history than SRL has. It would look a lot different if the Hearns fight was 12 rounds (I know it's a moot point) and the Hagler decision had gone the other way. He deffo lost the 2nd Hearns fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Its about who you fight not how many titles you win RJJ was a great fighter but he did not come any where near fighting the fighters Sugar Ray did , hands down SRR is the better man :cool:
Well its kinda funny because Leonard and Jones really started to show there aged at the same time which is 36 years old. But i guess not everyone can be a Hopkins and last so fucking long.
I'm really surprised to see there being a debate on this topic. Leonard gets my vote without ANY hesitation.
I'm with the majority.... Sugar Ray. You can't even manufacture a better list of opponents than what SRL had in real life. Duran, Benitez, Hearns, Hagler.... all HOF'ers and ATG's.
Leonard
Jones Jr is doing irreparable damage to his legacy continuing to fight and losing to guys not good enough to carry his gym bag.
Trainer Monkey is the greatest.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...98_2021259.jpg
SRL is 36 and RJJ is 49, so based on the numbers it is SRL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
that is very easy to say
were you around in the srl era to really asses?
leanard lost to a man naturally a couiple fo weights below him, i really couldnt see that ever happening to jones
Jones has alot in his favour too. First man and only man, to move up from middleweight to heavyweight and capture titles on his way up, voted fighter of the decade, and held more titles than anyone else at one time.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
that is very easy to say
were you around in the srl era to really asses?
leanard lost to a man naturally a couiple fo weights below him, i really couldnt see that ever happening to jones
End of the day ya can only beat whats put in front of you. Leonard was fortunate he was around at a time when we had several other greats to compare him against and each other.
and you really only had so many greats because of the lack of interest in the heaviesQuote:
Originally Posted by MattyhitmanJones has alot in his favour too. First man and only man, to move up from middleweight to heavyweight and capture titles on his way up, voted fighter of the decade, and held more titles than anyone else at one time.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
that is very easy to say
were you around in the srl era to really asses?
leanard lost to a man naturally a couiple fo weights below him, i really couldnt see that ever happening to jones
End of the day ya can only beat whats put in front of you. Leonard was fortunate he was around at a time when we had several other greats to compare him against and each other.
everyone turned to the lower weights for the entertainment
im not saying they werent great fighters who had great battles im just saying they are better remembered and got more exposure because nobody cared for the big fellas
The "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I disagree, I had Jones winning the 1st Tarver fight & Tarver was the #1 contender going into that fight & was no push over! I don't care much for the win over Ruiz but he had to cut back down in weight for the Tarver fight. Jones was basically untouchable until around 2004. Jones dominated from 154 to 175 for a period of roughly 15 years, defeating the likes of Hopkins, Toney, McCallum & Tarver (also a whole host of other top contenders)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Granted, prior to being knocked out by Tarver in 2004, Jones was better than most of his competition. My point is, unlike SRL, up until 2004 Jones really had no "defining" fights and/or fights where he was really tested. Well guess what, the competition finally got better, and when Jones started fighting pugs who were his equal, he wasn't up to the challenge. As long as Jones was dealing out the punishment he was great, but as soon as someone gave him a taste of his own medicine, he was toast.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyI disagree, I had Jones winning the 1st Tarver fight & Tarver was the #1 contender going into that fight & was no push over! I don't care much for the win over Ruiz but he had to cut back down in weight for the Tarver fight. Jones was basically untouchable until around 2004. Jones dominated from 154 to 175 for a period of roughly 15 years, defeating the likes of Hopkins, Toney, McCallum & Tarver (also a whole host of other top contenders)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I base much of a fighters greatness by how well they come back from adversity, this is a big part of the reason why pugs like SRL, Louis, Marciano, Ali, et al, are all-time greats, and why Roy Jones Jr. is not. (at least not in my top 100)
SRL has the Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, David Freese, quality: Big game moments. High Drama.
RJJ is more like Peyton Manning, which is no insult of course. He was undoubtedly the best in the game but never had quite that defining moment in the clutch.
Only Ali had a more dramatic career than SRL imo, which of course is a function of having great competition. He even won when he lost, choosing to go toe 2 toe with Duran. That sort of passion distinguishes him. It’s a narrative, a great story with chapters, that ultimately culminates in one of the sport’s greatest warriors quitting. A defeat worse than a KO.
Then comes the jewel in the crown, imo: Hearns I, which is even more significant that Hagler because both fighters were in their prime and SRL has to come from behind to win. He changes styles and pursues arguably the hardest hitting welter in history, culminating in one of the most dramatic late round stoppages in boxing history. This scenario almost repeats itself in their 2ndn bout.
RJJ never had stuff like that, and certainly was never able to pull off a dramatic win past his prime, as SRL did with Hagler. RJJ was just a physical phenom. But even in this category there are questions about his chin and of PED use.
So I go with SRL.
I sort of get what your saying, but just because Jones wasn't really tested doesn't mean he didn't have any defining fights, I mean Toney was considered a top p4p guy when they fought, Hopkins wasn't the finished product he became but was still dangerous. When he fought Tarver the 1st time I think that was Tarver at his best. Age caught up with Jones & because he never had great fundamentals to begin with once he slowed down he started getting caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axGranted, prior to being knocked out by Tarver in 2004, Jones was better than most of his competition. My point is, unlike SRL, up until 2004 Jones really had no "defining" fights and/or fights where he was really tested. Well guess what, the competition finally got better, and when Jones started fighting pugs who were his equal, he wasn't up to the challenge. As long as Jones was dealing out the punishment he was great, but as soon as someone gave him a taste of his own medicine, he was toast.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyI disagree, I had Jones winning the 1st Tarver fight & Tarver was the #1 contender going into that fight & was no push over! I don't care much for the win over Ruiz but he had to cut back down in weight for the Tarver fight. Jones was basically untouchable until around 2004. Jones dominated from 154 to 175 for a period of roughly 15 years, defeating the likes of Hopkins, Toney, McCallum & Tarver (also a whole host of other top contenders)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I base much of a fighters greatness by how well they come back from adversity, this is a big part of the reason why pugs like SRL, Louis, Marciano, Ali, et al, are all-time greats, and why Roy Jones Jr. is not. (at least not in my top 100)
Are you serious ? honestly thats absolute garbage, the reason he lost is because he was 35 year's old, and dropped a huge amount of weight. Tarver, Johnson, are stiffer competition than fighters like Toney ? Hopkins ? Hill ? really ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
And didn't SRL also get destroyed by Terry Norris ? and he was younger than RJJ and was coming off a one sided win over Robert Duran.
RJJ winning the Heavyweight title was no great achievement ? it hadn't been done in a century and John Ruiz was coming over flooring a good version of Evander Holyfield. But according to you its not a great achievement.
Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.