NO fighter in history attacked Naz and left the ring without help. After last night there's not a serious boxing fan on earth that can argue Pac doesn't get annihilated by the rocket launchers. Fact.
That is all.
Thoughts?
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NO fighter in history attacked Naz and left the ring without help. After last night there's not a serious boxing fan on earth that can argue Pac doesn't get annihilated by the rocket launchers. Fact.
That is all.
Thoughts?
It probably says more about how much Hamed couldn't even hold Marquez's piss glass.
Well that maybe so, Adam
But you can't deny we now have concrete evidence that Pac storming forward against a counter puncher, especially with the devastating power and timing of Naz, is a recipe for disaster?
It's borderline impossible to make a case for Pac beating Naz. Lets be honest.
Pac is no Kevin Kelly, that's for sure.
;D In all seriousness, there's nothing to suggest Hamed wouldn't have had a good(hypothetical) chance against either Pacquiao or Marquez, while they were still operating at or below 130 pounds. Naz and Pacquiao at that weight would have been a tremendous stlystic matchup to boot.
What we do know is that Naseem never stuck around long enough to give any indication of whether he could've climbed up in weight and still been effective, much less dominant. Last night was a fight between two great welterweights, Hamed never showed anything to suggest he could've lived with either of these men in their present form. What Manny and Marquez have both done over the last few years is nothing short of incredible, fact.
Marquez would prob beat Naz.
If pac and naz did fight would it simply be a case of who ever got hit first would be going down?
The tree trunk legs of both these fighters is crazy.
this is in actual fact a fact
I always thought JMM had the style to beat Naz which was why he was avoided. Against Manny Pac that would be a pick em and I would go for Naz.
Naz would have bombed out Marquez too. AS great as Marquez is, he's been down around 10 million times during his career
You go down against Naz..... it's over.
Marquez has proven to be right up there with the great MAB.
Only thing different about a JMM-Naz fight is JMM would've introduced Naz to the other corner post.
I think Marquez has surpassed the great Barrera.
However, any boxing expert, especially one versed in the technical artistry of the sport, can only envisage one winner with prime Naz countering his bombs against those exposed bonces.
Marquez would have lasted longer than Pac, but ultimately it's impossible to see either of these serial canvas victims getting past 3. Against old Naz Marquez might have gone the distance. Pac would have still gone in 3. It's just basic undeniable logic.
Au contraire, mod. Naz's undisciplined style and awkwardly thrown shots would've been tailor-made for the counterpunching Marquez. The seasoned pro (JMM) would be drooling all over himself waiting for Naz to hang himself out to dry... only to potshot the shit out of him. Not one to be impressed by the gangly, hands-down approach of Naz... Marquez, (in his own right a very patient fighter)... would eventually tag Naz and put him down. The fact that Marquez has tasted canvas before is of little or no consequence. Pac put him down 3 times in the first round of their first fight. Marquez survived the round, and went on to dominate the last half of the fight, earning him a draw.
Only question in my mind is whether it would be a neutral corner post, JMM's corner post, or Naz's own corner post..... or whether JMM would go for the trifecta.
I have to conclude from the sound logic in this thread that Hamed would have ruined MAB too.
p4p all time no. 1
Look, I'm just basing this factual reasoning on pure statistcal verified data.
Naz had a 100% knockdown to knockout conversation rate at featherweight. That is a fact. Marquez hit the canvas numerous times at featherweight, let alone other weights. Therefore the stats indicate Naz, who was P4P one of the hardest punchers ever, KO's Marquez.
Marquez is a greater fighter than Naz in the grand scheme of things. But even if Naz knocked him spark out, which is highly likely, it wouldn't have altered Marquez high postion in boxing. Fact.
Cesar Soto went the full 12 with Hamed. The same Cesar Soto who was stopped in 1 round by Adrian Valdez. Sounds to me like you trying to say Hamed isn't the fighter Valdez was. Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Styles make fights.
I think the 126 Marquez puts on a clinic and Manny probably gets stopped. Marquez was never off his feet prior to Manny and it was the speed and opposite side that worked at the start. Hameds rubber band man routine does not work with Marquez southpaw or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You're playing silly numbers games. Naz knocked out everyone he ever knocked down....... Marquez has hit the canvas before. So you add A plus B, and you get C. Then you throw Marquez a backhanded compliment saying he would "highly likely" get knocked out by Naz... but he'd still be great. Cute.
Has anyone bought that, that you know of?
:spam:
that is all.
Exactly, Fenster trollin'.
Pac I guess you can say is a pick em fight - but Naz beating JMM?
Top trollin' *CLAP CLAP CLAP*
I hope not for their sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You're playing silly numbers games. Naz knocked out everyone he ever knocked down....... Marquez has hit the canvas before. So you add A plus B, and you get C. Then you throw Marquez a backhanded compliment saying he would "highly likely" get knocked out by Naz... but he'd still be great. Cute.
Has anyone bought that, that you know of?
What about the Pacquio benchmark though Fenster ? Seeing as how 100% of Hamed's embarassing, near shutout losses came at the hands of Mexican Pacman opponents it provides us with solid, FACTual data for comparison.
Each fighter starts with 100 points.
MAB lost 100% of his bouts with Pac, 50% of those by stoppage.
We have to -100 for the lack of a W and -50 for the tko.
For JMM we will grade him twice as to be unbiased - once based off general concensus and once based off of judges scores.
Opinion/fact: JMM lost 0% of his bouts with Pac and stopped him once in four. We will award him a 25% bonus for that KO, for a score of 125
Fact (disputed): JMM lost 50% of his bouts with pac, drew 25% and won 25% by KO. This leaves him with a final score of 95.5% (-50 for the losses, plus 17.5 for the draw and 25% for the KO. Still considerably higher than MABs MINUS 150.
If -150 on the pacbaromoter is enough to secure a clear UD that saw Hamed do the chicken dance several times, then I cannot dispute that a score of either 125 or even 92.5 mean that Hamed doesn't see at least the 6th round.
That depends which version of Pac would have fought, before or after changing his religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The fact is all three lose against the great Mighty Mike. Fact
A sober analysis of your data leads me to believe you are correct. The numbers are very revealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
When I first opened this thread I thought that maybe Fenster had gone about it in the wrong way. It was obviously too obvious.
But no. Quite amusing.
I like the thread. It feels like the boxing Taliban have been overthrown - you can say Naz beats Pac, without fear. Yay.
No one can really right off Naz because he punched so hard. It could happen that he catches JMM and stops him as he has the power. However no one has stopped Marquez and he has been in the ring with Manny 4 times so he knows how to handle himself. He would probably have an easier time with Naz as the fight would be less intense than they are with Manny but he would have to concentrate on not get caught with the unusual punches that Naz threw. 80% likely that JMM would have won.
Starting a thread is not trolling. Posting pithy one liners and sarcastic emoticons ? That is trolling. I should know apparently I couldn't be more troll like if I lived under a bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Althugz
Marquez ducked Nas and rejected what would've been the highest purse of his career
Prime Nas, who was hungry and focused and had yet to be limited by the chronic swelling problems he developed in his hands would've given Pac a fight.
You think the 'chronic swelling problems' were just limited to his hands? ;D
You're right though, Marquez cherry picked all of his fights, he strikes me as the type of fighter who is fearful of a loss and who avoided the best, never seeking them and his legacy will always have a huge blemish on it for not fighting Naseem p4p the greatest hamed.
I'm starting to lose count of the ammount of Frank Warren fighters who have holes in their records because 'fighter X turned down a career high pay day'.
I'm starting to suspect that there's maybe more to these fights not coming off than that, but then again Warren is so trustworthy... :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb
I honestly tried to find a vid of people supporting your (and Fenster's) theory, but this is the closest I could come up with. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m07E0bg0pLc
@TitoFan - You need a video? For fucks sake talk about denial (how many times?)
Here's the same HBO guys confirming Marquez ducked Naz (@AdamGB - Frank Warren had nothing to do with Naz at this stage). All four turned down huge career high paydays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcD-WVZpyQ&list=FLJMd-nE9RRYO0DDTLOokDBQ&index=72
It took you over an hour to take the bait.
I'm somewhat disappointed.
:)
Well I can't react to things I haven't seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
It actually took me about 30 seconds to provide the uninitiated with the truth.
JMM would beat Naz 7 ways til Sunday and twice before lunch...
Don't get shit twisted JMM is a REAL legend based on REAL facts.
Not based on what could have? Or what might have?
He is based on what is.
and that my friends is a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
So you're saying that talk of JMM ducking Naseem at any point in time is basically a crock of shit?
:reporter:
Are you calling @CutMeMick a moron? There's evidence of Marquez ducking Naz on this very page. I'm pretty certain he can hear and read.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
So you're saying that talk of JMM ducking Naseem at any point in time is basically a crock of shit?
:reporter:
Mick said Marquez is a legend. No boxing fan on earth would disagree with that.
And he believes Marquez would beat Naz, but i'm sure he agrees, even if Marquez didn't beat Naz, and got Pacquiao'd, he'd still be a legend. Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterAre you calling @CutMeMick a moron? There's evidence of Marquez ducking Naz on this very page. I'm pretty certain he can hear and read.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
So you're saying that talk of JMM ducking Naseem at any point in time is basically a crock of shit?
:reporter:
Mick said Marquez is a legend. No boxing fan on earth would disagree with that.
And he believes Marquez would beat Naz, but i'm sure he agrees, even if Marquez didn't beat Naz, and got Pacquiao'd, he'd still be a legend. Fact.
"JMM would beat Naz 7 ways til Sunday and twice before lunch..."
Does that quote sound like someone who would agree that JMM ever ducked Naz?
If you think it does..... we have nothing more to talk about.
What does that quote have to do with Marquez ducking Naz? He said he thinks Marquez would beat Naz. That's fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterAre you calling @CutMeMick a moron? There's evidence of Marquez ducking Naz on this very page. I'm pretty certain he can hear and read.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
So you're saying that talk of JMM ducking Naseem at any point in time is basically a crock of shit?
:reporter:
Mick said Marquez is a legend. No boxing fan on earth would disagree with that.
And he believes Marquez would beat Naz, but i'm sure he agrees, even if Marquez didn't beat Naz, and got Pacquiao'd, he'd still be a legend. Fact.
"JMM would beat Naz 7 ways til Sunday and twice before lunch..."
Does that quote sound like someone who would agree that JMM ever ducked Naz?
If you think it does..... we have nothing more to talk about.
Show me where he said - "HBO, Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant were lying?"
Just because Marquez ducked Naz it doesn't mean he isn't better than him. Fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhat does that quote have to do with Marquez ducking Naz? He said he thinks Marquez would beat Naz. That's fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterAre you calling @CutMeMick a moron? There's evidence of Marquez ducking Naz on this very page. I'm pretty certain he can hear and read.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
So you're saying that talk of JMM ducking Naseem at any point in time is basically a crock of shit?
:reporter:
Mick said Marquez is a legend. No boxing fan on earth would disagree with that.
And he believes Marquez would beat Naz, but i'm sure he agrees, even if Marquez didn't beat Naz, and got Pacquiao'd, he'd still be a legend. Fact.
"JMM would beat Naz 7 ways til Sunday and twice before lunch..."
Does that quote sound like someone who would agree that JMM ever ducked Naz?
If you think it does..... we have nothing more to talk about.
Show me where in his post he said - "HBO, Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant were lying?"
Just because Marquez ducked Naz it doesn't mean he isn't better than him. Fact.
He didn't say he "thinks Marquez would beat Naz".
He said Marquez would "beat Naz 7 ways til Sunday and twice before lunch..."
Slight difference. ;)
If you need it to be explained, let me know.
Also, nice try on the "me calling CMM a moron" bit.
You sounded like the 5th grader egging on two 9th graders to a fistfight.
How typically "Fenster-ish" of you.
:)