The Economic Crisis (The Fall of America & the Western World)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB8GmcRV_yg

We are almost due another 'crisis' and next to nothing was done to criminalise those who did it the last time. It has to be within the next couple of years, it usually runs in these cycles. Logically, you cannot blame them for trying it again. I guess in the West they know that people are largely put in their place through very effective police bullying and have their secret services all over the place. Nobody has a hope of drinking from the same trough as the governments are largely bought off by the banking cartels.

You've got to get a bubble going before you can have it collapse. Right now we only have various financial market bubbles going on and provided the real economy doesn't collapse they're not even bubbles. What we had in 2008 was a bubble bubble that included all classes via their houses and their personaldebt. Fianancial markets fucking up doesn't have the same effect as it's only top one percenters who (temporarily) lose serious dough.

I watched the video for six seconds till I saw David Icke and then cut it. If somebody wants to paraphrase what the barking loonies on it are saying I'll offer a critique.

Kirk,

Do you think there is a bond bubble? If so do you think it is a "bubble bubble"?

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Kirk,

Do you think there is a bond bubble? If so do you think it is a "bubble bubble"?

---

no question the BOND MARKET IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE IN BLACK FLAMES OF HATRED

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Kirk,

Do you think there is a bond bubble? If so do you think it is a "bubble bubble"?

---

While the economy is as depressed as it is there isn't a bubble. Once things pick up a bit rates will increase and people will scream "there was a bubble!*" but it's hard to see any kind of sustained global recovery that will give the US government serious problems selling their bonds or paying interest on their debt and they've ended the domestic budget deficit problem now so there's no upward pressure on rates from that angle anymore. Since 2008 rates have gone up when markets are feeling like things are going well. Rates have tumbled back down to historic lows when there's been bad news, and there's lots more bad news to come globally over the next few years.


*http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2...ate=2013-06-21


As you can see rates have been on a downward leg for a long time now. This mainly represnts the fact that there aren't many good investment opportunities for capital worldwide so all that capital is being parked in bond markets. And we're npot going to see better investment opportunities while demand in wealthy countries remains suppressed, and it'll largely remain suppressed until there's a more equitable distribution of wealth within those exconomies.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Kirk,

Do you think there is a bond bubble? If so do you think it is a "bubble bubble"?

---

no question the BOND MARKET IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE IN BLACK FLAMES OF HATRED

---

Which bond market? All bonds of just US bonds? And why?

Sorry for all the typos btw. I need to start reading these things before I post them.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Kirk,

Do you think there is a bond bubble? If so do you think it is a "bubble bubble"?

---

no question the BOND MARKET IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE IN BLACK FLAMES OF HATRED

---

Which bond market? All bonds of just US bonds? And why?

---

US bonds are inflated with phantom money printed out of thin air, backed by nothing. The Fed printed or "created" 26 trillion dollars worth of fake money then bought up its own bonds at the Treasury. US dollars are each worth less than ever. The Weimar Republic as well as Hungary did this same desperate thing with catastrophic results. Printing money to bail out failing assholes only saturates the economy with cheap money and destroys the currency. ANY BONDS DENOMINATED IN THAT CURRENCY ARE WORTHLESS PIECES OF SHIT. US Bond Market will collapse----CHina Japan and the Gulf central banks are no longer willing to buy US dollar denominated bonds because they know what the fuck is going on. The US dollar is fucking toast----worthless shit. It has only stayed afloat because ti is still the currency that oil contracts are bought and sold in. But that has changed as of February 2013---Russia, INdia, China Iran and Brazil are all trading oil contracts now NOT based on the worthless US dollar but on their own currencies and/or a basket of currencies. US dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency. Nobiody wants it anymore. DOW JONES IS ABOUT TO TAKE A 40% CORRECTION DOWNWARDS. BY THE END OF THIS YEAR THE DOW JONEWS INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE WILL BE AROUND 9,000.

YOU talk about rates going up. The us cannot even pay the interest on the 26 trillion dollars of debt it has and interest rates are fucking ZERO now for 4 years. If rates even go up to 3 or 4%----you can kiss the uinited states good fucking bye, good fucking riddance, good fucking night

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Kirk,

Do you think there is a bond bubble? If so do you think it is a "bubble bubble"?

---

no question the BOND MARKET IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE IN BLACK FLAMES OF HATRED

---

Which bond market? All bonds of just US bonds? And why?

---

US bonds are inflated with phantom money printed out of thin air, backed by nothing. The Fed printed or "created" 26 trillion dollars worth of fake money then bought up its own bonds at the Treasury. US dollars are each worth less than ever. The Weimar Republic as well as Hungary did this same desperate thing with catastrophic results. Printing money to bail out failing assholes only saturates the economy with cheap money and destroys the currency. ANY BONDS DENOMINATED IN THAT CURRENCY ARE WORTHLESS PIECES OF SHIT. US Bond Market will collapse----CHina Japan and the Gulf central banks are no longer willing to buy US dollar denominated bonds because they know what the fuck is going on. The US dollar is fucking toast----worthless shit. It has only stayed afloat because ti is still the currency that oil contracts are bought and sold in. But that has changed as of February 2013---Russia, INdia, China Iran and Brazil are all trading oil contracts now NOT based on the worthless US dollar but on their own currencies and/or a basket of currencies. US dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency. Nobiody wants it anymore. DOW JONES IS ABOUT TO TAKE A 40% CORRECTION DOWNWARDS. BY THE END OF THIS YEAR THE DOW JONEWS INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE WILL BE AROUND 9,000.

YOU talk about rates going up. The us cannot even pay the interest on the 26 trillion dollars of debt it has and interest rates are fucking ZERO now for 4 years. If rates even go up to 3 or 4%----you can kiss the uinited states good fucking bye, good fucking riddance, good fucking night

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All money is printed out of thin air and backed by nothing.

The Fed doesn't buy its own bonds, it buys Treasury bonds. Every central bank around the world does this. It's how central banks control the money supply and interest rates. It's a system that works really well and has brought the world unparalleled economic stability and prosperity for over a century now.

Here's how the dollar has fared compared to an index of the world's major currencies over the past few years :

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2...ate=2013-06-24



As you can see the dollar collapsed in value when the Kenyan imposter took power back in 2002. Oh wait, Obama only took office in January 2009. The dollar has actually slightly increased in value since the 2008 meltdown. So it looks like the dollar's fall in value since you had a balanced budget and booming economy all happened before the Kenyan took office. Yet the media now have a large chunk of the public wetting the bed over the collapse of the dollar that stopped collapsing in 2008. Why is that?

This is the third time the Fed have been doing large-scale bond buying. Both times previously when they stopped buying there was almost no change to rates and people kept buying US bonds.


Why is the Dow going to collapse by 40%?

becasue the dollar will collapse. and the stocks are valued in a currency that will collapse. Gold going up to 1500-2000 is a clear sign that the dollar is no longer trusted. stock market will collapse 40% by January 2014.

this 14000 shit is artificial. there is no welath being created. stiock prices are higher now because of implied inflation. you cannot print 26 trillion dollars out of thin air without devaluing the currecny. this is common sense. it cannot work. this is a dead cat bounce to use a gay economic cliche term but i cant htink of any thing better at the speed i am typing. dead cat bounce. like juicing a corpse with a thousand volts yes his heart will beat a little more but he is still dead.

no wealth creation. all consumerism-driven. more free money, more purchases on credit, etc


the treasury and the fed are working together to imitate a new country buying us bonds. its a shell game. its an illusion. no wealth is being created. its artificial. theire is no productivity. its bullshit. devalued dollars mean you need more dollars to do the same shit. stock prices are higher because each dollar is worth less.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

becasue the dollar will collapse. and the stocks are valued in a currency that will collapse. Gold going up to 1500-2000 is a clear sign that the dollar is no longer trusted. stock market will collapse 40% by January 2014.

this 14000 shit is artificial. there is no welath being created. stiock prices are higher now because of implied inflation. you cannot print 26 trillion dollars out of thin air without devaluing the currecny. this is common sense. it cannot work. this is a dead cat bounce to use a gay economic cliche term but i cant htink of any thing better at the speed i am typing. dead cat bounce. like juicing a corpse with a thousand volts yes his heart will beat a little more but he is still dead.

no wealth creation. all consumerism-driven. more free money, more purchases on credit, etc


the treasury and the fed are working together to imitate a new country buying us bonds. its a shell game. its an illusion. no wealth is being created. its artificial. theire is no productivity. its bullshit. devalued dollars mean you need more dollars to do the same shit. stock prices are higher because each dollar is worth less.

---

So all this is predicated on the dollar collapsing. What makes you think the dollar is going to collapse?

And how come the Fed tripled the amount of dollars in existence overnight back in 2008 and the value of the dollar went up? How come it hasn't collapsed in the last five years?

Also, too, your last post. I didn't have the time to deal with all the wrong/crazy in it. There was so much nonsense in the post it approached the level of a Lyle post. But as for the US being unable to afford interest payments on the debt, here is the projected spend according to the CBO:

http://www.cepr.net/images/stories/b...DP-08-2012.jpg


(Got this from google images but this is a CBO projection) So by the end of the decade America will be paying the same amount of money in real terms as it was back when it had a balanced budget and the economy was booming. So why do you think America isn't going to be able to pay the interest? The dollar is going to collapse, right?

So why is the dollar going to collapse then?

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

becasue the dollar will collapse. and the stocks are valued in a currency that will collapse. Gold going up to 1500-2000 is a clear sign that the dollar is no longer trusted. stock market will collapse 40% by January 2014.

this 14000 shit is artificial. there is no welath being created. stiock prices are higher now because of implied inflation. you cannot print 26 trillion dollars out of thin air without devaluing the currecny. this is common sense. it cannot work. this is a dead cat bounce to use a gay economic cliche term but i cant htink of any thing better at the speed i am typing. dead cat bounce. like juicing a corpse with a thousand volts yes his heart will beat a little more but he is still dead.

no wealth creation. all consumerism-driven. more free money, more purchases on credit, etc


the treasury and the fed are working together to imitate a new country buying us bonds. its a shell game. its an illusion. no wealth is being created. its artificial. theire is no productivity. its bullshit. devalued dollars mean you need more dollars to do the same shit. stock prices are higher because each dollar is worth less.

---

So all this is predicated on the dollar collapsing. What makes you think the dollar is going to collapse?

And how come the Fed tripled the amount of dollars in existence overnight back in 2008 and the value of the dollar went up? How come it hasn't collapsed in the last five years?

Also, too, your last post. I didn't have the time to deal with all the wrong/crazy in it. There was so much nonsense in the post it approached the level of a Lyle post. But as for the US being unable to afford interest payments on the debt, here is the projected spend according to the CBO:

http://www.cepr.net/images/stories/b...DP-08-2012.jpg


(Got this from google images but this is a CBO projection) So by the end of the decade America will be paying the same amount of money in real terms as it was back when it had a balanced budget and the economy was booming. So why do you think America isn't going to be able to pay the interest? The dollar is going to collapse, right?

---

Hasnt collapsed cuz its beeing artificially propped-up by the Treasury buying up all the bonds that China no longer wants to buy. Thats what I meant by a shell-game. The Treasury has taken China's and Japan's places as bond-buyers and just putting on the govt's balance sheet all these bond sales which is a Shell Game, isnt it? Smoke and Mirrors. Anybody can see that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

becasue the dollar will collapse. and the stocks are valued in a currency that will collapse. Gold going up to 1500-2000 is a clear sign that the dollar is no longer trusted. stock market will collapse 40% by January 2014.

this 14000 shit is artificial. there is no welath being created. stiock prices are higher now because of implied inflation. you cannot print 26 trillion dollars out of thin air without devaluing the currecny. this is common sense. it cannot work. this is a dead cat bounce to use a gay economic cliche term but i cant htink of any thing better at the speed i am typing. dead cat bounce. like juicing a corpse with a thousand volts yes his heart will beat a little more but he is still dead.

no wealth creation. all consumerism-driven. more free money, more purchases on credit, etc


the treasury and the fed are working together to imitate a new country buying us bonds. its a shell game. its an illusion. no wealth is being created. its artificial. theire is no productivity. its bullshit. devalued dollars mean you need more dollars to do the same shit. stock prices are higher because each dollar is worth less.

---

So all this is predicated on the dollar collapsing. What makes you think the dollar is going to collapse?

And how come the Fed tripled the amount of dollars in existence overnight back in 2008 and the value of the dollar went up? How come it hasn't collapsed in the last five years?

Also, too, your last post. I didn't have the time to deal with all the wrong/crazy in it. There was so much nonsense in the post it approached the level of a Lyle post. But as for the US being unable to afford interest payments on the debt, here is the projected spend according to the CBO:

http://www.cepr.net/images/stories/b...DP-08-2012.jpg


(Got this from google images but this is a CBO projection) So by the end of the decade America will be paying the same amount of money in real terms as it was back when it had a balanced budget and the economy was booming. So why do you think America isn't going to be able to pay the interest? The dollar is going to collapse, right?

---

Hasnt collapsed cuz its beeing artificially propped-up by the Treasury buying up all the bonds that China no longer wants to buy. Thats what I meant by a shell-game. The Treasury has taken China's and Japan's places as bond-buyers and just putting on the govt's balance sheet all these bond sales which is a Shell Game, isnt it? Smoke and Mirrors. Anybody can see that.

---

The Treasury isn't buying any bonds. It issues bonds. It's the Fed that's buying bonds. They're about to start tapering off their bond-buying programme. But this is the third bond-buying programme the Fed has run since the 2008 meltdown. The first two times they stopped buying bonds and the Treasury had no problem selling their bonds at negative real rates of interest. That means investors were actually paying the Treasury to buy US bonds rather than expecting to earn any interest from them.

Most of the market for US bbonds since 2008 is now domestic -- the Treasury hasn't had to sell bonds to foreign countries in any great quantity since 2008 because there's been a massive domestic market. And China will always need to buy US bonds. Their government's policy is to boost exports and they do that by keeping their currency cheap against their biggest export market. And they keep their currency cheap by buying large numbers of US bonds. They've been letting their currency appreciate against the dollar over the last five years but at some point will have to start buying large quantities of US bonds again.

US bonds are the safest investment on the planet. In globally uncertain times like the present people are always going to want safety and over the last five years they've literally been loaning money to the US government at a loss. Even when interest rates do increase over the next few years (and they may not do so significantly) the government will easily be able to afford paying the interest and will still sell the bonds they're issuing. And the government has now ended the deficit problem so there's no upward pressure on rates from runaway government spending/deficit because the real deficit is now wiped out and the budget effectively balanced.

US Bonds and any US dollar denominated instruments are the most RISKY investments on the planet. Why would anybody want to hold US dollars OR US bonds? The value of the dollar has been eroded terribly by all the money printing. Wait til interest rates which have been kept artificially low at zero for the past 5 years hit 3 or 4%-----kiss the US goodbye Lang. They cant even pay the interest on their national debt. And this is at 0% interest. Do you know what the payments will be if the rate goes up even to 3%?? I cant even imagine the carnage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

US Bonds and any US dollar denominated instruments are the most RISKY investments on the planet. Why would anybody want to hold US dollars OR US bonds? The value of the dollar has been eroded terribly by all the money printing. Wait til interest rates which have been kept artificially low at zero for the past 5 years hit 3 or 4%-----kiss the US goodbye Lang. They cant even pay the interest on their national debt. And this is at 0% interest. Do you know what the payments will be if the rate goes up even to 3%?? I cant even imagine the carnage.

---

The Treasury just auctioned $$30 billion of seven year bonds yesterday. There was robust bidding and the Treasury could have sold eighty billion if they'd taken every penny on offer. And the price they sold them for? 1.93%. Assuming standard 2% inflation that means bond investors, the smartest investors on the planet*, people who read the paper and know the Fed is going to stop buying bonds, paid the US government 0.07% interest a year for seven year to look after their money for them.

Bond Prices Rise After Strong Debt Auction


The headline says that bond prices rise. And when bond prices rise, what happens to bond yields/interest rates, hmmm?

I already showed you a graph that shows how much the US would be paying if/when interest rates get back up to 5-7%. America would be paying the same percentage of GDP in interest as it was in the 1990s. And I already showed you the value of the dollar hasn't budged despite the Fed tripling the number of dollars in existence.


*Some of these guys spend longer every day studying the bond market and things that affect it than you do watching Alex Jones! A lot of them have spent twelve hours a day, six days a week, fifty weeks a year for decades studying the market. They're currently paying one and a half percent over inflation to lend money to the US for thirty years. If they're locking their and their investors' money away for thirty years for one and a half points over 2% annual inflation they can't be too worried about the imminent collapse of the dollar, can they?

Walk away Brock...walk away. I'll debate Kirk on a slew of topics but the man kind of knows his shit on macro economics...well except for that silly Keynsian garbage but we can't all be enlightened like Hayek;D

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

US Bonds and any US dollar denominated instruments are the most RISKY investments on the planet. Why would anybody want to hold US dollars OR US bonds? The value of the dollar has been eroded terribly by all the money printing. Wait til interest rates which have been kept artificially low at zero for the past 5 years hit 3 or 4%-----kiss the US goodbye Lang. They cant even pay the interest on their national debt. And this is at 0% interest. Do you know what the payments will be if the rate goes up even to 3%?? I cant even imagine the carnage.

---

The Treasury just auctioned $$30 billion of seven year bonds yesterday. There was robust bidding and the Treasury could have sold eighty billion if they'd taken every penny on offer. And the price they sold them for? 1.93%. Assuming standard 2% inflation that means bond investors, the smartest investors on the planet*, people who read the paper and know the Fed is going to stop buying bonds, paid the US government 0.07% interest a year for seven year to look after their money for them.

Bond Prices Rise After Strong Debt Auction


The headline says that bond prices rise. And when bond prices rise, what happens to bond yields/interest rates, hmmm?

I already showed you a graph that shows how much the US would be paying if/when interest rates get back up to 5-7%. America would be paying the same percentage of GDP in interest as it was in the 1990s. And I already showed you the value of the dollar hasn't budged despite the Fed tripling the number of dollars in existence.


*Some of these guys spend longer every day studying the bond market and things that affect it than you do watching Alex Jones! A lot of them have spent twelve hours a day, six days a week, fifty weeks a year for decades studying the market. They're currently paying one and a half percent over inflation to lend money to the US for thirty years. If they're locking their and their investors' money away for thirty years for one and a half points over 2% annual inflation they can't be too worried about the imminent collapse of the dollar, can they?

---

only reason there is demand for bonds is because ::: hmmmmm?????http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defau..._fakebonds.jpg
“We know it has to happen. And when it does, we’ll get out.” Lang do you know who said that 2 weeks ago? Lang, if you are as knowledgable as you seem, you know that a bond sell-off has been anticipated for years, given the long run of popularity that corporate and government bonds have enjoyed. But most strategists expected that investors would slowly transfer out of bonds, allowing interest rates to slowly drift up.
Instead, Ben Shithead Bernanke recently suggested that the strength of the economic recovery might allow the Fed to slow down its bond-buying program, waves of selling have---could we say Kirkland---convulsed the markets. The value of outstanding United States government 10-year notes has fallen 10% since a high in early May. The selling--if you read it---hit a record $48 billion worth of shares in bond mutual funds so far in June, according to TrimTabs.(see this video, this guy is the husband of a girl I did my Masters with in 1990: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwDhf8ctYsY
But hedge funds and other big institutional investors have also been closing out positions or stepping back from the bond market. “The feeling you are getting out there is that people are selling first and asking questions later,” said Hans Humes, chief executive of the hedge fund Greylock Capital Management.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

US Bonds and any US dollar denominated instruments are the most RISKY investments on the planet. Why would anybody want to hold US dollars OR US bonds? The value of the dollar has been eroded terribly by all the money printing. Wait til interest rates which have been kept artificially low at zero for the past 5 years hit 3 or 4%-----kiss the US goodbye Lang. They cant even pay the interest on their national debt. And this is at 0% interest. Do you know what the payments will be if the rate goes up even to 3%?? I cant even imagine the carnage.

---

The Treasury just auctioned $$30 billion of seven year bonds yesterday. There was robust bidding and the Treasury could have sold eighty billion if they'd taken every penny on offer. And the price they sold them for? 1.93%. Assuming standard 2% inflation that means bond investors, the smartest investors on the planet*, people who read the paper and know the Fed is going to stop buying bonds, paid the US government 0.07% interest a year for seven year to look after their money for them.

Bond Prices Rise After Strong Debt Auction


The headline says that bond prices rise. And when bond prices rise, what happens to bond yields/interest rates, hmmm?

I already showed you a graph that shows how much the US would be paying if/when interest rates get back up to 5-7%. America would be paying the same percentage of GDP in interest as it was in the 1990s. And I already showed you the value of the dollar hasn't budged despite the Fed tripling the number of dollars in existence.


*Some of these guys spend longer every day studying the bond market and things that affect it than you do watching Alex Jones! A lot of them have spent twelve hours a day, six days a week, fifty weeks a year for decades studying the market. They're currently paying one and a half percent over inflation to lend money to the US for thirty years. If they're locking their and their investors' money away for thirty years for one and a half points over 2% annual inflation they can't be too worried about the imminent collapse of the dollar, can they?

---

only reason there is demand for bonds is because ::: hmmmmm?????http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defau..._fakebonds.jpg
“We know it has to happen. And when it does, we’ll get out.” Lang do you know who said that 2 weeks ago? Lang, if you are as knowledgable as you seem, you know that a bond sell-off has been anticipated for years, given the long run of popularity that corporate and government bonds have enjoyed. But most strategists expected that investors would slowly transfer out of bonds, allowing interest rates to slowly drift up.
Instead, Ben Shithead Bernanke recently suggested that the strength of the economic recovery might allow the Fed to slow down its bond-buying program, waves of selling have---could we say Kirkland---convulsed the markets. The value of outstanding United States government 10-year notes has fallen 10% since a high in early May. The selling--if you read it---hit a record $48 billion worth of shares in bond mutual funds so far in June, according to TrimTabs.(see this video, this guy is the husband of a girl I did my Masters with in 1990: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwDhf8ctYsY
But hedge funds and other big institutional investors have also been closing out positions or stepping back from the bond market. “The feeling you are getting out there is that people are selling first and asking questions later,” said Hans Humes, chief executive of the hedge fund Greylock Capital Management.

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Yes, you'll find people out there predicting all sorts of things. As for who sadi that I have no idea. What you've got is a bunch of bits and pieces that you think mean something but actually don't mean anything at all.

If I wanted to write a scare article to get people panicking about the collapse of the bond market/financial system/whatever I'm sure I could do a much better job. The actual prices of bonds and the volume of trading of bonds, bond funds, bond derivatives and options has all been within normal ranges for years now. Just because what you think is a huge number was traded in a month doesn't mean anything, it's just somebody using normal numbers (that sound big!) to scare you.

Your first argument was the soaring price of gold which you said predicted the imminent collapse of the dollar. What's happening to the price of gold right now, hmmm?

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Walk away Brock...walk away. I'll debate Kirk on a slew of topics but the man kind of knows his shit on macro economics...well except for that silly Keynsian garbage but we can't all be enlightened like Hayek;D

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I invite you to compare Hayekian Europe with its record and rising unemployment rate (over 25% in some countries) and relatively Keynesian America. The last five years have been a complete vindication for Keynesian economics.

I'm not tied to any particular ideology. I have to be right, I can't afford the luxury of believing in one thing when events prove it's completely wrong. If it turned out that slashing government spending worked and turned recessionary economies around then I'd fully support slashing government spending. But the evidence shows how well it works all too clearly.

I wouldn't describe any centrally planned economy as reminiscent of Hayek's principles and definitely not any in Europe. American's problem is they fully embrace Keynes philosophy of deficit spending to stabilize markets but ignore the part where he talks about running a surplus once the markets turn back up.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

US Bonds and any US dollar denominated instruments are the most RISKY investments on the planet. Why would anybody want to hold US dollars OR US bonds? The value of the dollar has been eroded terribly by all the money printing. Wait til interest rates which have been kept artificially low at zero for the past 5 years hit 3 or 4%-----kiss the US goodbye Lang. They cant even pay the interest on their national debt. And this is at 0% interest. Do you know what the payments will be if the rate goes up even to 3%?? I cant even imagine the carnage.

---

The Treasury just auctioned $$30 billion of seven year bonds yesterday. There was robust bidding and the Treasury could have sold eighty billion if they'd taken every penny on offer. And the price they sold them for? 1.93%. Assuming standard 2% inflation that means bond investors, the smartest investors on the planet*, people who read the paper and know the Fed is going to stop buying bonds, paid the US government 0.07% interest a year for seven year to look after their money for them.

Bond Prices Rise After Strong Debt Auction


The headline says that bond prices rise. And when bond prices rise, what happens to bond yields/interest rates, hmmm?

I already showed you a graph that shows how much the US would be paying if/when interest rates get back up to 5-7%. America would be paying the same percentage of GDP in interest as it was in the 1990s. And I already showed you the value of the dollar hasn't budged despite the Fed tripling the number of dollars in existence.


*Some of these guys spend longer every day studying the bond market and things that affect it than you do watching Alex Jones! A lot of them have spent twelve hours a day, six days a week, fifty weeks a year for decades studying the market. They're currently paying one and a half percent over inflation to lend money to the US for thirty years. If they're locking their and their investors' money away for thirty years for one and a half points over 2% annual inflation they can't be too worried about the imminent collapse of the dollar, can they?

---

only reason there is demand for bonds is because ::: hmmmmm?????http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defau..._fakebonds.jpg
“We know it has to happen. And when it does, we’ll get out.” Lang do you know who said that 2 weeks ago? Lang, if you are as knowledgable as you seem, you know that a bond sell-off has been anticipated for years, given the long run of popularity that corporate and government bonds have enjoyed. But most strategists expected that investors would slowly transfer out of bonds, allowing interest rates to slowly drift up.
Instead, Ben Shithead Bernanke recently suggested that the strength of the economic recovery might allow the Fed to slow down its bond-buying program, waves of selling have---could we say Kirkland---convulsed the markets. The value of outstanding United States government 10-year notes has fallen 10% since a high in early May. The selling--if you read it---hit a record $48 billion worth of shares in bond mutual funds so far in June, according to TrimTabs.(see this video, this guy is the husband of a girl I did my Masters with in 1990: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwDhf8ctYsY
But hedge funds and other big institutional investors have also been closing out positions or stepping back from the bond market. “The feeling you are getting out there is that people are selling first and asking questions later,” said Hans Humes, chief executive of the hedge fund Greylock Capital Management.

---

Yes, you'll find people out there predicting all sorts of things. As for who sadi that I have no idea. What you've got is a bunch of bits and pieces that you think mean something but actually don't mean anything at all.

If I wanted to write a scare article to get people panicking about the collapse of the bond market/financial system/whatever I'm sure I could do a much better job. The actual prices of bonds and the volume of trading of bonds, bond funds, bond derivatives and options has all been within normal ranges for years now. Just because what you think is a huge number was traded in a month doesn't mean anything, it's just somebody using normal numbers (that sound big!) to scare you.

Your first argument was the soaring price of gold which you said predicted the imminent collapse of the dollar. What's happening to the price of gold right now, hmmm?

---

you DO realize that is just your OPINION, don't you Kirkland? :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

I wouldn't describe any centrally planned economy as reminiscent of Hayek's principles and definitely not any in Europe. American's problem is they fully embrace Keynes philosophy of deficit spending to stabilize markets but ignore the part where he talks about running a surplus once the markets turn back up.

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Centrally planned economies are economies where erery aspect of the economy is controlled and run by the government. North Korea is an example of a planned economy. Economies throughout Hayek and other Austrians' lives that they studied and based their theories on have been mixed economies where the economy is mainly private but has a government/public sector.

I agree about the Keynesian bit but the fact that governments never* run a surplus in good economic times doesn't negate the fact that Keynesian policies are now obviously the only way to deal with zero interest rates/poor economic growth situations like the current one.

*Actually Spain and Ireland were running large surpluses before the 2008 meltdown. After five years of cuts Spain currently has 26% unemployment and Ireland has 15% and would have 25% but so many Irish have emigrated again, fucking their economy up for future decades.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

US Bonds and any US dollar denominated instruments are the most RISKY investments on the planet. Why would anybody want to hold US dollars OR US bonds? The value of the dollar has been eroded terribly by all the money printing. Wait til interest rates which have been kept artificially low at zero for the past 5 years hit 3 or 4%-----kiss the US goodbye Lang. They cant even pay the interest on their national debt. And this is at 0% interest. Do you know what the payments will be if the rate goes up even to 3%?? I cant even imagine the carnage.

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The Treasury just auctioned $$30 billion of seven year bonds yesterday. There was robust bidding and the Treasury could have sold eighty billion if they'd taken every penny on offer. And the price they sold them for? 1.93%. Assuming standard 2% inflation that means bond investors, the smartest investors on the planet*, people who read the paper and know the Fed is going to stop buying bonds, paid the US government 0.07% interest a year for seven year to look after their money for them.

Bond Prices Rise After Strong Debt Auction


The headline says that bond prices rise. And when bond prices rise, what happens to bond yields/interest rates, hmmm?

I already showed you a graph that shows how much the US would be paying if/when interest rates get back up to 5-7%. America would be paying the same percentage of GDP in interest as it was in the 1990s. And I already showed you the value of the dollar hasn't budged despite the Fed tripling the number of dollars in existence.


*Some of these guys spend longer every day studying the bond market and things that affect it than you do watching Alex Jones! A lot of them have spent twelve hours a day, six days a week, fifty weeks a year for decades studying the market. They're currently paying one and a half percent over inflation to lend money to the US for thirty years. If they're locking their and their investors' money away for thirty years for one and a half points over 2% annual inflation they can't be too worried about the imminent collapse of the dollar, can they?

---

only reason there is demand for bonds is because ::: hmmmmm?????http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defau..._fakebonds.jpg
“We know it has to happen. And when it does, we’ll get out.” Lang do you know who said that 2 weeks ago? Lang, if you are as knowledgable as you seem, you know that a bond sell-off has been anticipated for years, given the long run of popularity that corporate and government bonds have enjoyed. But most strategists expected that investors would slowly transfer out of bonds, allowing interest rates to slowly drift up.
Instead, Ben Shithead Bernanke recently suggested that the strength of the economic recovery might allow the Fed to slow down its bond-buying program, waves of selling have---could we say Kirkland---convulsed the markets. The value of outstanding United States government 10-year notes has fallen 10% since a high in early May. The selling--if you read it---hit a record $48 billion worth of shares in bond mutual funds so far in June, according to TrimTabs.(see this video, this guy is the husband of a girl I did my Masters with in 1990: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwDhf8ctYsY
But hedge funds and other big institutional investors have also been closing out positions or stepping back from the bond market. “The feeling you are getting out there is that people are selling first and asking questions later,” said Hans Humes, chief executive of the hedge fund Greylock Capital Management.

---

Yes, you'll find people out there predicting all sorts of things. As for who sadi that I have no idea. What you've got is a bunch of bits and pieces that you think mean something but actually don't mean anything at all.

If I wanted to write a scare article to get people panicking about the collapse of the bond market/financial system/whatever I'm sure I could do a much better job. The actual prices of bonds and the volume of trading of bonds, bond funds, bond derivatives and options has all been within normal ranges for years now. Just because what you think is a huge number was traded in a month doesn't mean anything, it's just somebody using normal numbers (that sound big!) to scare you.

Your first argument was the soaring price of gold which you said predicted the imminent collapse of the dollar. What's happening to the price of gold right now, hmmm?

---

you DO realize that is just your OPINION, don't you Kirkland? :rolleyes:

---

I'm Kirkland Laing. I'm always right about everything. I could write you a book about the bond market and how it works. When I try and condense everything I need to say into a few paragraphs I read it back and think awful job, I didn't explain this and that rpoperly. What I will do is spend a couple of days drafting a concise post that explains the current situation so simply and clearly that even Lyle can understand it. I'm only going to spend a few minutes a day doing it so expect it next week. And we'll see how my explanation of the market and what will happen in the future plays out against what does actually happen. You'll see that when it comes to this sort of thing I'm always right about everything.

In return you have to give me a final date in the future when you'll accept that the ECONOMIC FIERY DEATH SPIRAL isn't going to happen. Some date when you accept the people you're reading were wrong all along. Because they are.

you DO realize that is just your OPINION, don't you Kirkland? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I'm Kirkland Laing. I'm always right about everything. .[/QUOTE]

uh,.....wait a minute.........what? :LOS:

I don't understand. I'm Kirkland Laing. Kirkland Laing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

I don't understand. I'm Kirkland Laing. Kirkland Laing!

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The italics clarified it, thanks. Any way you a good guy and we aint fightin but I got a Masters in INt'l Finance from Thunderbird (AZ) and I know a decent amount about it. The US has lent, spent and guaranteed $26 trillion since 2009. Deregulation has allowed all kinds of abuse. Black pools, default swaps, collateralized debt obligations, all sorts of shenanigans, and the criminals who pulled this off are now expected (hahaha) to solve it? Thats asking the fox to guard the henhouse. The same people who in 2007 "didnt see it coming" are now being trusted to tell us what is happening now??? What a joke. YOu really believe the company line/the govt line that there is a recovery and we are out of the recession since June of 09? Hahaha---you believe there is only 7% unemployment? More like 24%---see the problem with believeing govt accounting figures is that they fudge the figures, manipulate the data laft and right shamelessly.

Now food and fule are not being counted in the CPI index? Not part of inflation huh? hmmm? How convenient. Thats how they can claim there is no inflation. With all those dollars printed out of nothing, backed by nothing, producing nothing, creating no productive capacity, only encouraging more consumer spending........how is there no inflation? You believe them too much. They are liars, they have always been and always will be. Its all coming down shortly Laing. The whole CHARADE. peace bro

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

I don't understand. I'm Kirkland Laing. Kirkland Laing!

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The italics clarified it, thanks. Any way you a good guy and we aint fightin but I got a Masters in INt'l Finance from Thunderbird (AZ) and I know a decent amount about it. The US has lent, spent and guaranteed $26 trillion since 2009. Deregulation has allowed all kinds of abuse. Black pools, default swaps, collateralized debt obligations, all sorts of shenanigans, and the criminals who pulled this off are now expected (hahaha) to solve it? Thats asking the fox to guard the henhouse. The same people who in 2007 "didnt see it coming" are now being trusted to tell us what is happening now??? What a joke. YOu really believe the company line/the govt line that there is a recovery and we are out of the recession since June of 09? Hahaha---you believe there is only 7% unemployment? More like 24%---see the problem with believeing govt accounting figures is that they fudge the figures, manipulate the data laft and right shamelessly.

Now food and fule are not being counted in the CPI index? Not part of inflation huh? hmmm? How convenient. Thats how they can claim there is no inflation. With all those dollars printed out of nothing, backed by nothing, producing nothing, creating no productive capacity, only encouraging more consumer spending........how is there no inflation? You believe them too much. They are liars, they have always been and always will be. Its all coming down shortly Laing. The whole CHARADE. peace bro

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You don't even understand basic stuff about bonds that's covered in high school economics lessons. Are you going to give me an actual date by which you guarantee the US economy will be in a FIERY DEATH SPIRAL?

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

I don't understand. I'm Kirkland Laing. Kirkland Laing!

---

The italics clarified it, thanks. Any way you a good guy and we aint fightin but I got a Masters in INt'l Finance from Thunderbird (AZ) and I know a decent amount about it. The US has lent, spent and guaranteed $26 trillion since 2009. Deregulation has allowed all kinds of abuse. Black pools, default swaps, collateralized debt obligations, all sorts of shenanigans, and the criminals who pulled this off are now expected (hahaha) to solve it? Thats asking the fox to guard the henhouse. The same people who in 2007 "didnt see it coming" are now being trusted to tell us what is happening now??? What a joke. YOu really believe the company line/the govt line that there is a recovery and we are out of the recession since June of 09? Hahaha---you believe there is only 7% unemployment? More like 24%---see the problem with believeing govt accounting figures is that they fudge the figures, manipulate the data laft and right shamelessly.

Now food and fule are not being counted in the CPI index? Not part of inflation huh? hmmm? How convenient. Thats how they can claim there is no inflation. With all those dollars printed out of nothing, backed by nothing, producing nothing, creating no productive capacity, only encouraging more consumer spending........how is there no inflation? You believe them too much. They are liars, they have always been and always will be. Its all coming down shortly Laing. The whole CHARADE. peace bro

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You don't even understand basic stuff about bonds that's covered in high school economics lessons. Are you going to give me an actual date by which you guarantee the US economy will be in a FIERY DEATH SPIRAL?

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no I will not go back and forth with you like Lyle has done. Want to know why? Because you have no respect. I didnt tell you anything like you dont know basic things or make any judgemental statements to you personally. But I see here you have done that in replying to me. I make it a rule to not debate a person who takes it to the insulting or personal level. My advice to you bro: it aint always what you say but HOW you say it. Ciao.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFIPgTx7kHs

I'm not insulting you. I'm just making a basic statement of fact. US bonds are not issued by the Fed, they're issued by the Treasury. If you don't know stuff like that you won't even pass high school economics 101. That's just a simple fact, not an insult at all. Trust me, if I insulted you you'd know all about it. I'm absolutely elite world class at taking the piss out of people and hurting their feelings and I don't do it because I don't want to get banned.

My advice to you is to read a wide variety of sources about the economy and the financial system. If you're just going to read/watch/listen to the nutjobs who've been wrongly predicting FIERY DEATH SPIRALS for five years now you're going to continue to be wrong. If you read other sources for a year or three you'll understand that it isn't a conspiracy that we use core inflation to measure inflation, why food and fuel aren't counted, why we don't have inflation despite printing so much money and so on. I already explained these points endlessly over the years, I can remember some months ago explaining to you about how we count inflation the way we do. If you're going to argue about this stuff you should know the absolute basic, Janet and John high school level stuff at least. And if you're going to insist on the FIERY DEATH SPIRAL you should at least come up with a definitive date when it's going to happen.

OK we're cool on the perceived insult thing. Ill give you that .... Now......

you're missing the main points... its pedantic to keep hammering about the Fed/Treasury thing OK fine, I stated it backwards....but that aint the point my friend.

YOunever address the MAIN POINT which is this whole thing is a shell game. Do you understand what I mean by that?

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

OK we're cool on the perceived insult thing. Ill give you that .... Now......

you're missing the main points... its pedantic to keep hammering about the Fed/Treasury thing OK fine, I stated it backwards....but that aint the point my friend.

YOunever address the MAIN POINT which is this whole thing is a shell game. Do you understand what I mean by that?

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So the shell game is who issues the bonds?
I'm fairly certain Mr. Laing has debunked EVERYTHING you have posited.
The strange thing is in my industry there are a fair number of people with various degrees from Thunderbird, they understand these basics a lot better and never quote hacks on youtube as
evidence for anything.

Also I have to track the gold markets everyday as it is part of my supply chain. It's been obvious to me that gold was not going to maintain it's meteoric rise in value, despite what gold salesmen would say.
Here's a chart of GLD an ETF that tracks gold prices (multiply by 10 to get the value)

If your logic (and the crux of your argument) is that the rise of gold price
is representative of a loss of value in the dollar, than the inverse must also
be true right?

And gold has lost roughly 30% of it's value from it's peak.

SPDR Gold Trust ETF Chart - Yahoo! Finance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

OK we're cool on the perceived insult thing. Ill give you that .... Now......

you're missing the main points... its pedantic to keep hammering about the Fed/Treasury thing OK fine, I stated it backwards....but that aint the point my friend.

YOunever address the MAIN POINT which is this whole thing is a shell game. Do you understand what I mean by that?

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Explain to me exactly what you mean by "shell game".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by killersheep

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

OK we're cool on the perceived insult thing. Ill give you that .... Now......

you're missing the main points... its pedantic to keep hammering about the Fed/Treasury thing OK fine, I stated it backwards....but that aint the point my friend.

YOunever address the MAIN POINT which is this whole thing is a shell game. Do you understand what I mean by that?

---

So the shell game is who issues the bonds?
I'm fairly certain Mr. Laing has debunked EVERYTHING you have posited.
The strange thing is in my industry there are a fair number of people with various degrees from Thunderbird, they understand these basics a lot better and never quote hacks on youtube as
evidence for anything.

Also I have to track the gold markets everyday as it is part of my supply chain. It's been obvious to me that gold was not going to maintain it's meteoric rise in value, despite what gold salesmen would say.
Here's a chart of GLD an ETF that tracks gold prices (multiply by 10 to get the value)

If your logic (and the crux of your argument) is that the rise of gold price
is representative of a loss of value in the dollar, than the inverse must also
be true right?

And gold has lost roughly 30% of it's value from it's peak.

SPDR Gold Trust ETF Chart - Yahoo! Finance

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Who are you? ;D Nice to see you slumming again in the off topic areas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

OK we're cool on the perceived insult thing. Ill give you that .... Now......

you're missing the main points... its pedantic to keep hammering about the Fed/Treasury thing OK fine, I stated it backwards....but that aint the point my friend.

YOunever address the MAIN POINT which is this whole thing is a shell game. Do you understand what I mean by that?

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Explain to me exactly what you mean by "shell game".

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Now you see it. Now you don’t. YOu never heard of it? QE was the Fed’s scam. Doing it won’t resolve economic problems. They’re getting worse while Bernanke and the idiot who inherited his "job", the ECB, Bank of England, Bank of Japan etc... FIDDLE like Nero my friend. Banks got bailed out. We got sold out. Laing ti ain't hard to understand. Thunderbirds can have their own opinions. Having 1 opinion or another doesnt mean you dont understand economics. Helicopter Ben operated by Abraham Maslow’s maxim that “if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.” Yes Helicopter Ben, how fitting isnt it? For nearly five years, credit went for speculation, big salaries and bonuses. It hasn’t been for the economy to stimulate growth and create jobs. Since September 2007, the Fed cut interest rates from 5.25 to .25%. Surviving investment banks became commercial ones to get free money unavailable to ordinary folks. They scammed tens of trillions. How much is kept secret. It’s at least $19 trillion and may be up to two and half times that much. Hundreds of billions went to Fannie, Freddie, AIG, the automakers and others. At the same time, millions lost jobs, homes and futures. Who cares about them when only money power and helping corporate favorites matter, right Laing??? :rolleyes:. In fall 2008, $700 billion in TARP funds were created. The Fed bought commercial paper from non-financial firms. It gave $540 billion to money market funds. It gave Citigroup $280 billion for its liabilities and $140 billion for Bank of America. Obama’s $787 billion stimulus went mostly (in the form of tax breaks) to corporate favorites and rich scumbag elites---like they didn't have enough already. QE II, QE I, Operation Twist, QE III. THEN QE INFINITY!!!

The Fed generously helped troubled European banks and its balance sheet exploded. Now its over $3.6 trillion and rising, if it was a country it would be the world’s fifth largest. One failed program followed another. US median income is lower than when the National Bureau of Economic Research declared recession over in June 2009. hahaha Yeah Laing with all that free money, perhaps it's over for Wall Street, not Main Street.

Boosting demand is needed by putting money in the pockets of consumers – but QE infinity will NOT do it. And better alternatives aren’t chosen for some odd reason, gee, wonder why, hmmmm? QE goes straight into bank reserve accounts, and banks can’t lend their reserves. They sit there helping no one needing it most. The Fed's genius plan is to buy mortgage backed securities till the motherfucking cows come home. Doing it won’t help homeowners. Bank balance sheets won’t change. You should know that QE takes something on the asset side of bank balance sheets (MBS or other toxic junk) and replaces it with electronically-generated dollars. Don't tell me I have to brush up on economic theory my friend. We all know they become excess reserves. They’re not spent or extended in loans. They’re mostly lent to other banks that need reserves. Money sitting in bank reserves can’t stimulate growth. Since QE I, the monetary base rose, but circulating money supply increased no faster than in the previous decade. At the same time, loans declined. QE II was no different. Why expect QE III or QE Whatever The Fuck to turn around failure? What about QE for small business, troubled states and municipalities, low-interest student loans, and help for troubled homeowners?

Dallas Fed President Richard Fisher said all QE will do is keep inflation expectations elevated while doing little or nothing to create growth and jobs. And it doesnt take his comments to understand this.

If that’s not bad enough Laing, just wait. The worst is yet to come. Only its timeline isn’t known. If past is prologue, perhaps (hahaha) it’s coming at a time of irrational exuberance when least expected. It wouldn’t be the first time would it now, hmmmm?:rolleyes: Basic common sense. All you want to do is pedantically get me to call out a date for this catastrophe, this train wreck. Sorry I'm not God, I aint callin' no dates. Hell I dont even pick rounds in Saddo's Prediction COntests ;)

Nobody has scammed tens of trillions of dollars from anybody. That's just nuts. Maybe you'd like to provide evidence of where these tens of trillions came from and went to?

And QE isn't some magic wand to end all problems. It's just the only monetary tool that the Fed have to stimulate growth in the current situation. I'm sure you were predicting imminent economic meltdown the moment the Fed tripled the monetary base overnight in 2008. So five years later where is the meltdown? What'll happen is that you'll keep predicitng it right up until the goons you read stop saying it's going to happen and start off on some new tangent to get their market wetting the bed about something else. And when that happens you'll completely forget about the FIERY DEATH SPIRAL that didn't happen and then statrt endless posts predicting another BLOCK CAPS EVENT that won't happen either.

Ah.

QE Shell Game
By Stephen Lendman
9-23-12

Now you see it. Now you don't. QE III is the Fed's latest scam. A previous article quoted PIMCO's Bill Gross. He called it money printing "till the cows come home."

Doing it won't resolve festering economic problems. They're getting worse while Bernanke, the ECB, Bank of England, Bank of Japan, Congress, Obama, and like-minded world leaders fiddle.

After crisis conditions erupted in fall 2007, one scam followed another. Occupy Wall Street is right. "Banks got bailed out. We got sold out." It hasn't stopped and won't until either people rebel or the whole house of cards Greenspan/Bernanke built collapses.

Helicopter Ben operates by Abraham Maslow's maxim that "if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

Hammering all day won't help. He's buying time. Little else. An eventual day of reckoning looms. The longer it's delayed, the greater the collapse when it comes.

It's not if, just when. Bad policy assures bad results. It's not rocket science. It's simple truth.

If properly used, QE could have worked and still can if redirected to where it's needed. It's not and won't be. For nearly five years, credit went for speculation, big salaries and bonuses. It hasn't been for the economy to stimulate growth and create jobs.

Financial warfare rages. America and other societies are affected. Ordinary people are hurt most. Hard times keep getting harder.

Since September 2007, the Fed cut interest rates from 5.25 to .25%. Surviving investment banks became commercial ones to get free money unavailable to ordinary folks.

They scammed trillions. How much is kept secret. It's at least $9 trillion and may be up to two and half times that much.

Hundreds of billions went to Fannie, Freddie, AIG, the automakers and others. At the same time, millions lost jobs, homes and futures. Who cares about them when only money power and helping corporate favorites matter.

In fall 2008, $700 billion in TARP funds were created. The Fed bought commercial paper from non-financial firms. It offered $540 billion to backstop money market funds.

It handed Citigroup $280 billion for its liabilities and $140 billion for Bank of America's.

Obama's $787 billion stimulus went mostly (in the form of tax breaks) to corporate favorites and rich elites already with too much. QE II followed QE I, then Operation Twist, and now QE III.

The Fed provided generous back door funding for troubled European banks. Its balance sheet exploded. At over $2.8 trillion and rising, if it was a country it would be the world's fifth largest.

One failed program followed another. Economic duress deepens. Current US median income is lower than when the National Bureau of Economic Research declared recession over in June 2009. Perhaps for Wall Street, not Main Street.

Record numbers of Americans need food stamps. More join their ranks monthly. Real unemployment approaches 23%. Average unemployment duration is near a record high.

Jobs for millions wanting them aren't available. Most that are don't pay enough to get by. At the same time, vital benefits are eroding when they're most needed.

Instead of constructive policies that work, money printing madness that won't substitutes. Ellen Brown does some of the best financial analysis around. On September 21, she discussed why QE III won't stimulate growth and what will.

Boosting "aggregate demand" is needed. Getting it takes putting "money in the pockets of consumers - but QE3 won't do it." Better alternatives aren't chosen.

QE goes "straight into bank reserve accounts, and banks can't lend their reserves." They sit there helping no one needing it most. Bernanke's plan is buy mortgage backed securities (MBS) till the cows come home.

Doing it won't help homeowners. Bank balance sheets won't change nor will circulating money amounts. QE takes "something on the asset side of" bank balance sheets (MBS or other toxic junk) "and replaces it with electronically-generated dollars."

They become excess reserves. They're not spent or extended in loans. They're mostly "lent to other banks that need reserves..."

In other words, money sitting in bank reserves can't stimulate growth. Since QE I, the monetary base rose, but circulating money supply increased no "faster than in the previous decade." At the same time, loans declined.

QE II was no different. Why expect QE III to turn around failure. At the same time, workable alternatives aren't chosen. What about QE for small business, troubled states and municipalities, low-interest student loans, and help for troubled homeowners.

Get it in the coffers and pockets where it's most needed and will do the most good. Imagine the difference these alternatives could make. Whenever they're adopted, or variations thereof, they work as intended. Why not now.

Money into the economy in any amount for growth and job creation has little if any effect on inflation. Why not do what works. It's not rocket science. It's simple truth, and Bernanke knows it.

Of course, he's Wall Street's man. They hired him. He does what he's told. His concern is their interests. Serving them leaves ordinary people high and dry. Don't expect that leopard to change its spots, except perhaps when the house he built collapses if he's still around and accountable.

On September 21, the London Telegraph quoted former Fed chairman Paul Volker saying QE III won't work. Nor will ECB money madness. He addressed a Gleneagles, Scotland conference.

He called QE III "the most extreme easing of monetary policy" he could recall. "Monetary policy is about as easy as it can get. Another round of QE is understandable - but it will fail to fix the problem."

"There is so much liquidity in the market that adding more is not going to change the economy." Banks are hoarding cash. They're not lending. They're speculating or stashing it in tax havens.

Corporations are doing the same thing. Why hire and invest when weak conditions aren't improving.

Volker said inflation isn't a problem now, but watch out. "The risk is that central bankers are not able to tighten policy in time. Will they be able to pull back fast enough from loose monetary policy?"

The same goes for the ECB, Bank of England and Bank of Japan. They're dumping money from helicopters to use Bernanke's former expression. Even so, it hasn't worked.

Don't expect China to rescue the world, Volker added. Its economy "slowed 50pc since its peak and is no longer able to support international growth."

China equities hit a three and a half year low. Its manufacturing diffusion index was down for the 11th straight month. In 2012 through August, its foreign direct investment slumped 3.4% year-over-year. On September 20, its Commerce Ministry said:

"In general, external demand for China's exports will probably be even lower than in January-August since the global economy is continuing on a downward trend."

The bloom looks very much off its rose. It's just a matter of time until other large economies decline like China. A composite Eurozone manufacturing and service sector read fell to 45.9. It's the worst showing since June 2009.

Bloomberg reported Eurozone capital flight. In the 12 months ending July 31, 326 billion euros exited banks in Spain, Greece, Portugal and Ireland. They moved mostly to lenders in Germany, France, and five other core European countries.

At the same time, French manufacturing was hit hard. Its PMI diffusion index sunk to 42.6. Japan reported August exports down 5.8% year-over-year.

Dallas Fed President Richard Fisher said all QE III will do is keep inflation expectations elevated while doing little or nothing to create growth and jobs.


QE Shell Game

that's correct, I used that article on some of the detailed financial numbers like the Fed's reserves and the actual dollars used to bail out banks, etc. But I never even knew who Steve Lenderman was until yesterday. I have been championing these facts however since 2009. Nothing to do with Lenderman. Fiery Death Spiral seems to be something you've latched onto, like Lyle in the past latching onto "reptilian overlords". Simply using it repeatedly does not add any credence to your points. Fiery Death is not how I would describe what is coming. Give it up. There will be no fire, more like ICE, as in, everything will be frozen, figuratively of course, I must add, or you will then go off on Ice Age Glacier Attack or some other melodramatic sarcasm which does nothing more than make you look like a name-caller and wise-ass. I bet whoever told you "Fiery Death Spiral" (I have never heard of the term personally) really pricked you deeply or you wouldnt be saying it every time you need adjectives. Jesus Lang are you afraid of fire or something? :cool:

Its all coming down Lang, where did the money come from you ask? Oh please Lang, Helicopter Ben was printing it like there was no tomorrow. WHERE, indeed, Laing :rolleyes: