In a fair fight with an honest referee Golovkin would KO Andre Ward

If the fight were in Oakland with a crooked home referee who would permit Andre Ward to use illegal tactics (hit while holding, use deliberate head butts, hit off the break and repeatedly clamp GGG's arm) I think Ward would win a decision, perhaps a TD after a cut from deliberate head butt.

But in a fair fight with an HONEST referee preventing Ward from fouling, matching SKILL against SKILL, I think Gennady Golovkin would knock out the bigger man Andre Ward.

Ward haters never cease to amaze me

Haha. I don't know about that. I'm a HUGE fan of both guys and the truth is that GGG is a much smaller man, and Ward is the more versatile fighter. Ward doesn't have the one punch power that GGG has, but he is faster and more mobile. Ward is also a very smart boxer who can adapt. GGG will beat anyone 160 and down (except MAYBE Floyd) in spectacular fashion, but Ward is just too big and to good. He will be fast enough n mobile enough to work behind the jab and not let GGG set to punch. As stated also, he will smother GGG and manhandle him inside, making it an ugly fight at times and frustrating GGG. I would keep GGG away from Wardbn BHOP at all costs. Both of those guys have the mentality, talent, skill and versatility to beat him.

.... and they call me a troll.

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Originally Posted by Freedom

If the fight were in Oakland with a crooked home referee who would permit Andre Ward to use illegal tactics (hit while holding, use deliberate head butts, hit off the break and repeatedly clamp GGG's arm) I think Ward would win a decision, perhaps a TD after a cut from deliberate head butt.

But in a fair fight with an HONEST referee preventing Ward from fouling, matching SKILL against SKILL, I think Gennady Golovkin would knock out the bigger man Andre Ward.

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In Oakland, Ward would probably get the benefit of the doubt just as Floyd would in Vegas.
Holding and hitting happens in every fight. Being held while you are hitting happens in every fight too, actually that is what is usually going on.
Get in the ring with someone for a few rounds, when they have you on the ropes or are in close and hurting you to the body or head in the middle of the ring, please don't grab them. Lol.
It's instinctive, sir! Not holding goes against everything you brain is telling you. Holding is part of boxing and happens repeatedly in most fights. When there's no holding you have Gatti vs Ward or Alvarado vs Rios.
I agree with you, excessive holding, hitting on the break, or letting (wink, wink) someone run into you head, or following your head on the way inside piss me off too.
When someone is pounding you, it's very hard to not hold, that's why everyone is so good good at it, no training is necessary.
Ward is hard to hit, and if you do hit him how is his chin? I don't know if he's ever been down as a pro or as an amateur.

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

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Originally Posted by Freedom

If the fight were in Oakland with a crooked home referee who would permit Andre Ward to use illegal tactics (hit while holding, use deliberate head butts, hit off the break and repeatedly clamp GGG's arm) I think Ward would win a decision, perhaps a TD after a cut from deliberate head butt.

But in a fair fight with an HONEST referee preventing Ward from fouling, matching SKILL against SKILL, I think Gennady Golovkin would knock out the bigger man Andre Ward.

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In Oakland, Ward would probably get the benefit of the doubt just as Floyd would in Vegas.
Holding and hitting happens in every fight. Being held while you are hitting happens in every fight too, actually that is what is usually going on.
Get in the ring with someone for a few rounds, when they have you on the ropes or are in close and hurting you to the body or head in the middle of the ring, please don't grab them. Lol.
It's instinctive, sir! Not holding goes against everything you brain is telling you. Holding is part of boxing and happens repeatedly in most fights. When there's no holding you have Gatti vs Ward or Alvarado vs Rios.
I agree with you, excessive holding, hitting on the break, or letting (wink, wink) someone run into you head, or following your head on the way inside piss me off too.
When someone is pounding you, it's very hard to not hold, that's why everyone is so good good at it, no training is necessary.
Ward is hard to hit, and if you do hit him how is his chin? I don't know if he's ever been down as a pro or as an amateur.

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Actually wards been dropped early in his pro career, when he was caught trying to emulate roy. It might have even been twice. After that is when he adapted this style hes using now. He realizes he doesnt have the speed. So he keeps his chin down, avoids wide open exchanges, stays close to take the leverage off his opponents punches and plays the ranges. If he does get clipped, hes close enough to clinch and hang on. He learned to get off first, close the distance quickly (which results in a lot of headbutts as he follows with his head) , clinch before his opponent gets off and then ambushes on the break when his opponents least expecting it.

I agree with you on the clinching. its part of fighting. Which why Ward uses it to his advantage. So that part would be at the refs discretion. Some allow more and some allow less. As much as I dont like Ward. There's nothing to stop him from Jabbing or snapping a one two down the middle (GGG is very hittable) and the grabbing. (Ala Holyfield/tyson or brook /portor) and totally smothering GGG's offense while waiting for the ref. If Golovkin wants to win that fight, he would have to improve his lateral movement a lot. Learn how to pivot away from war and dig to the body with hooks and then make use of uppercuts up the middle.

I never want to see Ward/GGG because I'm too big of a GGG fan and I know exactly what Andre would do to him.

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Ward haters never cease to amaze me

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Just coz someone has an opinion that is different from yours doesn't make them a hater

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Ward haters never cease to amaze me

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Just coz someone has an opinion that is different from yours doesn't make them a hater

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The implication that Ward doesn't fight fair and that the referees usually assist him, and that this would be necessary to defeat the smaller GGG who has yet to face someone of Ward's level....

When you add these together, you get someone who just may qualify as a Ward hater. Just sayin ;D

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Originally Posted by ninjaspy3

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Ward haters never cease to amaze me

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Just coz someone has an opinion that is different from yours doesn't make them a hater

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The implication that Ward doesn't fight fair and that the referees usually assist him, and that this would be necessary to defeat the smaller GGG who has yet to face someone of Ward's level....

When you add these together, you get someone who just may qualify as a Ward hater. Just sayin ;D

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You have a point :)

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Originally Posted by Freedom

If the fight were in Oakland with a crooked home referee who would permit Andre Ward to use illegal tactics (hit while holding, use deliberate head butts, hit off the break and repeatedly clamp GGG's arm) I think Ward would win a decision, perhaps a TD after a cut from deliberate head butt.

But in a fair fight with an HONEST referee preventing Ward from fouling, matching SKILL against SKILL, I think Gennady Golovkin would knock out the bigger man Andre Ward.

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In that type of fight the more skilled fighter wins. And that would be Ward.

I think unless ward has totally lost it or is highly weight drained in a 160 fight then he owns golovkin pretty easily, at 168 i think ward ko's without too much toruble, golovkin just gets hit far to much and ward really is top class and can mix it up very well... ward by easy win in my opinion!

GGG is very good at cutting the ring off, Ward is a bit like Hopkins awkward, hard to hit very
dirty and very hard to beat,! but GGG has that power and if you avoid him from KO you out
early he with give you a systematic beating.
I fancy GGG to brake Ward down slowly, before he stops him in maybe 8 to 10 rounds.;)

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Originally Posted by ninjaspy3

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Ward haters never cease to amaze me

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Just coz someone has an opinion that is different from yours doesn't make them a hater

---

The implication that Ward doesn't fight fair and that the referees usually assist him, and that this would be necessary to defeat the smaller GGG who has yet to face someone of Ward's level....

When you add these together, you get someone who just may qualify as a Ward hater. Just sayin ;D

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I really have no feelings towards ward, doesn't bother me either way, but I do have an opinion that his fighting style at times bends the rules

I thought in the first Kessler fight he excessively used his head

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by ninjaspy3

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Ward haters never cease to amaze me

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Just coz someone has an opinion that is different from yours doesn't make them a hater

---

The implication that Ward doesn't fight fair and that the referees usually assist him, and that this would be necessary to defeat the smaller GGG who has yet to face someone of Ward's level....

When you add these together, you get someone who just may qualify as a Ward hater. Just sayin ;D

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I really have no feelings towards ward, doesn't bother me either way, but I do have an opinion that his fighting style at times bends the rules

I thought in the first Kessler fight he excessively used his head

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I can understand what you mean, but I felt that Ward started fighting a bit cleaner in later fights. But it seemed to me that many still had his earlier performances in mind and didn't notice that he had cleaned it up a bit, at least IMO.

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

GGG is very good at cutting the ring off, Ward is a bit like Hopkins awkward, hard to hit very
dirty and very hard to beat,! but GGG has that power and if you avoid him from KO you out
early he with give you a systematic beating.
I fancy GGG to brake Ward down slowly, before he stops him in maybe 8 to 10 rounds.;)

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Unless the inactivity of Ward has got to him, I highly doubt this occurring. If Froch could not do it then GGG probably could not do it either.

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Originally Posted by ninjaspy3

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by ninjaspy3

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Ward haters never cease to amaze me

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Just coz someone has an opinion that is different from yours doesn't make them a hater

---

The implication that Ward doesn't fight fair and that the referees usually assist him, and that this would be necessary to defeat the smaller GGG who has yet to face someone of Ward's level....

When you add these together, you get someone who just may qualify as a Ward hater. Just sayin ;D

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I really have no feelings towards ward, doesn't bother me either way, but I do have an opinion that his fighting style at times bends the rules

I thought in the first Kessler fight he excessively used his head

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I can understand what you mean, but I felt that Ward started fighting a bit cleaner in later fights. But it seemed to me that many still had his earlier performances in mind and didn't notice that he had cleaned it up a bit, at least IMO.

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Yep he has cleaned it up

I reckon the hate for ward comes a lot from his personality, he's a bit of a nob and people attack his boxing style because of it

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

GGG is very good at cutting the ring off, Ward is a bit like Hopkins awkward, hard to hit very
dirty and very hard to beat,! but GGG has that power and if you avoid him from KO you out
early he with give you a systematic beating.
I fancy GGG to brake Ward down slowly, before he stops him in maybe 8 to 10 rounds.;)

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Unless the inactivity of Ward has got to him, I highly doubt this occurring. If Froch could not do it then GGG probably could not do it either.

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GGG is a far better boxer than Froch, the best straight punch by him was the one he ko Groves with, Ward has been buzzed a few times, GGG will buzz him for sure.:)

ward IS dirty, and he is boring as hell to watch. fuck that clinching hugging rabbit punching SOG hypocrite. id rather watch golf.

People are really exaggerating how dirty Ward is and I do it also because I dont like him or his attitude. When really its the appearance of impropriety for the most part. Home field advantage? Well lots of fighters have had that over their careers and many of them all time greats. I often comment on Jack Reiss seeming to be his homer ref but in fairness he's on the rotation with all the other refs that are local and on the CSAC list. Yes he got away with shit in the Kessler fight but I dont recall all of this holding and hitting or punching off the break. Besides, I'd much rather see fighters punch and get out w/o the refs becoming camera whores every time the fighters are in tight. Please refer to the last ten prime time fights reffed by Cortez for examples of that phenomena.

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

Boring fighter? Each to their own. I like watching him fight and what he does and the mans a technical wizard. I'm pissed off at the guy and think him a tool for selfish reasons. Guys this good dont come around much and when they sit out for the reasons he is, it really picks my ass. Talent wise, its a little like living through the 40's and 50's and having Robinson sit out. Its his choice to compost over his prime years but he's the one that said following the games that he wanted to be remembered as the GOAT when he's finished boxing.

Its all well and good that the Kazak can cut off the ring and that has worked for him but with Ward its once you get to him that the building starts to collapse. So far Ward has turned people inside-out in the pocket and I dont think 3G can box with Ward either. I see Ward winning a ud.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

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"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

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(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

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"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

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(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

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How many times do I have to say that there is no rule against clinching. And in that video, ward wasn't holding and hitting. That is the problem. Tons of fighters throughout history clinch a lot. Some styles just lends itself to clinching. When you jump in, the natural thing to do is clinch. The other fighter can avoid it by moving to the side and countering. If you can't do that then too bad. It means you got outboxed.

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

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"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

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(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

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How many times do I have to say that there is no rule against clinching. And in that video, ward wasn't holding and hitting. That is the problem. Tons of fighters throughout history clinch a lot. Some styles just lends itself to clinching. When you jump in, the natural thing to do is clinch. The other fighter can avoid it by moving to the side and countering. If you can't do that then too bad. It means you got outboxed.

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There is a rule against clinching

In fact clinching is very much against the rules

Unless of course you're gonna nit pick as it's not actually ever referred to as "clinching" in the rules as far as I know

P.s. I'm not in any way suggesting that ward holds with this post I'm just clarifying the rules :)

And I've just watched the video and some of the fight again and it looks like a strategy that very much includes holding

Laughable really that people are so down on ward and in that vid some one has counted 20 holds in 2 or 3 rounds, wlad hits 20 mid way through the first

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

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"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

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(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

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Al Bernstein can be a tad dramatic and tends to follow whatever the accepted talk is at ringside.
Here is the fight. Show me all the intentional head butts? The clinch vid you posted is slanted. Put it in context and watch the entire fight.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGG1IYL17W0

I already said he got away with some shit but Wards fouling prowess is starting to make its way into urban legend status. I dont like the twat either but people are piling it on a little thick. You concluded in your opening post that he would need to cheat in multiple ways to win and that's ridiculous given the mans skill level.


In addition you cant just pick and chose what holding is or excessive holding based on whether you like the person or not and if I'm a Wlad fan I'm not even bringing up the topic.

And eric clinching has been a part of boxing since its grappling days and countless people both famous and not have used it as a tactical offense and defense.

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

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"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

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(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

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How many times do I have to say that there is no rule against clinching. And in that video, ward wasn't holding and hitting. That is the problem. Tons of fighters throughout history clinch a lot. Some styles just lends itself to clinching. When you jump in, the natural thing to do is clinch. The other fighter can avoid it by moving to the side and countering. If you can't do that then too bad. It means you got outboxed.

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There is a rule against clinching

In fact clinching is very much against the rules

Unless of course you're gonna nit pick as it's not actually ever referred to as "clinching" in the rules as far as I know

P.s. I'm not in any way suggesting that ward holds with this post I'm just clarifying the rules :)

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If you can find the rule that's fine. I just can't see how clinching is against the rules since its unintentional a lot of the time. Maybe intentional clinching is against the rule but as you said, it's an unwritten rule that it's allowed to happen. So even if it were against the rules technically, I would say that most fighters would be DQ'd because they clinch multiple times during a fight

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Originally Posted by Freedom

If the fight were in Oakland with a crooked home referee who would permit Andre Ward to use illegal tactics (hit while holding, use deliberate head butts, hit off the break and repeatedly clamp GGG's arm) I think Ward would win a decision, perhaps a TD after a cut from deliberate head butt.

But in a fair fight with an HONEST referee preventing Ward from fouling, matching SKILL against SKILL, I think Gennady Golovkin would knock out the bigger man Andre Ward.

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Come on.

Has andre been gone that long that people dont remember his skillset.

opponents make the fighter and GGG is not on the the same page as ward but I would still want the fight to happen.

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

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"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

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(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

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How many times do I have to say that there is no rule against clinching. And in that video, ward wasn't holding and hitting. That is the problem. Tons of fighters throughout history clinch a lot. Some styles just lends itself to clinching. When you jump in, the natural thing to do is clinch. The other fighter can avoid it by moving to the side and countering. If you can't do that then too bad. It means you got outboxed.

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There is a rule against clinching

In fact clinching is very much against the rules

Unless of course you're gonna nit pick as it's not actually ever referred to as "clinching" in the rules as far as I know

P.s. I'm not in any way suggesting that ward holds with this post I'm just clarifying the rules :)

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If you can find the rule that's fine. I just can't see how clinching is against the rules since its unintentional a lot of the time. Maybe intentional clinching is against the rule but as you said, it's an unwritten rule that it's allowed to happen. So even if it were against the rules technically, I would say that most fighters would be DQ'd because they clinch multiple times during a fight

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Well you have to accept that boxers are going to come together in a fight, and you have to accept there's going to be a reasonable amount of clinching

IMO in the Kessler fight ward should have been warned for clinching amongst other things

His strategy clearly involves a certain amount of holding, he should be stopped from doing this I think

It's against the rules and it makes the fight dull to watch and boxing is entertainment after all

IMO wlad kilt should be dq'd in most of his fights, he generates a lot of money tho and makes a lot of people rich so it's hard to see it ever happening

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In addition the Kessler fight is a little deceiving. I doubt very much that a boxer like Ward intentionally uses his head. The risk in that intent is just as high for the giver as it is the receiver unless the giver has a frontal skull like Vassiliy Jirov. Kessler gets clipped standing still because he's trying to set to throw a punch and Ward is operating on the fly and doing a fair amount of switch hitting. Wards head is in front of his body at times but I dont see him "using" it.

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"Let's be honest here, Ward came in like a billygoat" - Al Bernstein

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Excessive holding? Again I just dont see it. I mean consider where the BAR is for that. The heavyweight champion of the world fights like a set of living room drapes and to my knowledge has never been warned.

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(Video) Ward-Kessler: The Clinches

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Al Bernstein can be a tad dramatic and tends to follow whatever the accepted talk is at ringside.
Here is the fight. Show me all the intentional head butts? The clinch vid you posted is slanted. Put it in context and watch the entire fight.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGG1IYL17W0

I already said he got away with some shit but Wards fouling prowess is starting to make its way into urban legend status. I dont like the twat either but people are piling it on a little thick. You concluded in your opening post that he would need to cheat in multiple ways to win and that's ridiculous given the mans skill level.


In addition you cant just pick and chose what holding is or excessive holding based on whether you like the person or not and if I'm a Wlad fan I'm not even bringing up the topic.

And eric clinching has been a part of boxing since its grappling days and countless people both famous and not have used it as a tactical offense and defense.

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I actually rewatched the fight here and there were only a few times when I was bugged by the clinching, but all in all, it wasn't nearly as bad as that clinching compilation video made it out to be. Actually I find it a worse habit that Ward likes to stick the left hand out there often to use as a range finder rather than throwing a jab. An opponent might be able to use that against him if he doesn't learn how to suppress the urge to do that. But, yeah, not a bad fight.

There actually was a rule against under the original MoQ rules but that was left out when the rules for pro boxing were adapted from them. With respect to fighters clinching and using it as a way to smother offense, its a smart tactic to outsmart your opponents who may be blessed with more offensive ability. At the same time, it defeats the whole purpose of people tuning into watch a fight. I would have less issues if you clinched and spun a person and released and then attacked. Conversely I wouldn't have an objection to a Muay Thai like tactics of throwing a person down if they excessively held you.

As for ward on the Headbutts, i don't think any fighter openly admits to using their head but you can tell a fighter that follows through with their head offensively. Unfortunately, the risk is not the same for both fighters. In a fight where brow on brow forehead on forehead or cheekbone on cheekbone contact is made, the risk is the same and Its fairly safe to say that its an accident. For fighters like ward, bradley and holyfield who have been accused of cutting fighters on occasion, there needs to be a distinction made by the referee than lowering your head (Using the top, side, or upper forehead are the striking surface) into an opponent (brows, cheekbone, bride of nose or other areas where the skin is thinner and stretched raised features of the face) will not be tolerated. Either start docking them early if they initiated a butt or simply remove the possibility for them to win on the cards if the fights stopped early due to a cut. It opens the door for their opponents to pull the old "i cant see" routine and get a no contest in a fight they were losing but would keep the accidentally on purpose follow through with their melons...

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

There actually was a rule against under the original MoQ rules but that was left out when the rules for pro boxing were adapted from them. With respect to fighters clinching and using it as a way to smother offense, its a smart tactic to outsmart your opponents who may be blessed with more offensive ability. At the same time, it defeats the whole purpose of people tuning into watch a fight. I would have less issues if you clinched and spun a person and released and then attacked. Conversely I wouldn't have an objection to a Muay Thai like tactics of throwing a person down if they excessively held you.

As for ward on the Headbutts, i don't think any fighter openly admits to using their head but you can tell a fighter that follows through with their head offensively. Unfortunately, the risk is not the same for both fighters. In a fight where brow on brow forehead on forehead or cheekbone on cheekbone contact is made, the risk is the same and Its fairly safe to say that its an accident. For fighters like ward, bradley and holyfield who have been accused of cutting fighters on occasion, there needs to be a distinction made by the referee than lowering your head (Using the top, side, or upper forehead are the striking surface) into an opponent (brows, cheekbone, bride of nose or other areas where the skin is thinner and stretched raised features of the face) will not be tolerated. Either start docking them early if they initiated a butt or simply remove the possibility for them to win on the cards if the fights stopped early due to a cut. It opens the door for their opponents to pull the old "i cant see" routine and get a no contest in a fight they were losing but would keep the accidentally on purpose follow through with their melons...

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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agreed

This is a ridiculous thread. GGG hasn't defeated anyone near the quality of Ward, let alone even fought in Ward's weight class. Seriously, he hasn't even unified the titles at 160 yet. How can anyone with a straight face contend that GGG could beat Ward? I'm a fan of the guy and I can't. Let's see GGG get his defense against Rubio in and then move up in weight for a fight with Junior, Froch or Kessler first. If he beats one or more of them, at least then we can better gauge where he's at. Until then, come on, give it up, especially, when Abel Sanchez has outright said that they're willing to face Froch or Junior but not Ward because the risk isn't worth the reward, indicating at least implicitly that Sanchez views Ward as on a whole different level.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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It goes both ways, right? Same thing for people who only view defensive counter-punching as the sweet science. There's beauty in an artful volume puncher and in a defensive wizard. Great boxing technique is just that: great boxing technique, no matter if it is great offensive or defense.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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I don't think you can say that if you don't like the way ward fights then you must only like face first fighters

I agree tho, people find all sorts of different styles enjoyable

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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I don't think you can say that if you don't like the way ward fights then you must only like face first fighters

I agree tho, people find all sorts of different styles enjoyable

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if i understood him correctly, he thinks as i do. i dont mind as much people not finding certain fighters particularly exciting, but i dont like it when they make a blanket statement and pretty much say that nobody finds their fights enjoyable. i find wards fights enjoyable. i know there are some other people who enjoy watching him fight also. so in reality, he isnt as bad for boxing as some people claim. he has some fans and is a great boxer. again, boxing has a long history of boring fighters that were great. thats just how it works.

its like in college football, you can like how oregon plays since they play fast paced or you can like alabama who slows the game down and uses up the clock. as long as you can see the beauty of each style, thats all that matters.

(sorry about the college football reference to those not from america. im used to talking to people who know a lot about american football).

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I can't wait for the days when those that only appreciate face first boxing stop telling everyone else what is enjoyable

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It goes both ways, right? Same thing for people who only view defensive counter-punching as the sweet science. There's beauty in an artful volume puncher and in a defensive wizard. Great boxing technique is just that: great boxing technique, no matter if it is great offensive or defense.

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I can't remember once reading a fan of defensive fighters saying that Arturro Gatti was boring or Mickey ward etcetera. But I read daily that Ward is boring or Mayweather or Bradley etcetera. If someone wants to say "I find Ward to be boring" that would be fine with me. But it's hardly ever put like that. It's Ward is boring. You have to admit the statement is unfair. Why should one group speak for all?

I actually don't like Ward but I've watched the man shadow box probably 50 times. It's compelling the way he goes about it. You can visualize the opponent. The man is in a fight in his head. Not just moving and throwing the right punches but nullifying the shadow opponent. I've learned more watching him shadow box than I learned watching fights of a favorite like Benn.

Ron,
I think most people believe they are speaking for themselves. At least originally when commenting on wards style. A little bit of vented frustration, keyboard bravado and lack of proper phrasing thrown in and one of those blanket statements gets blurted out I dont really think its meant in a way that would destroy for the rest of everyone. I mean after all your word or mine probably wouldn't even be heard by Ward or his biggest supporters or the guys who make the decisions at the networks.

I think the crux of the issue becomes more clear when then evidence turns up that it might be more than a few irritated casual fans (at least outside the board). When people stop watching and ratings drop and there's no demand for tickets outside of oakland... The sentiment becomes more prevalent than just one fan's opinion. Apparently those opinions carry more weight than a one from a guy like me who sits home watching and feinting from his couch and swearing at his tv or any a keyboard warrior. Without these viewership/profit issues, these opinions would just be hollow statements and I believe that's what they are till the bottom line at hbo or showtime is a little light and the gate still has tickets.

While wards style is not my particular brand of vodka, I can't/ won't stop the guy from making a living as a fighter. However, its apparently happening anyway. Promotional issues, network execs turning the lights out on him and rigo and i didnt have to say a word. The tribe has spoken and apparently the only one who can't hear it is ward. He will fight his way, his weight class, his hometown, for the money he wants and not a penny less... and you have to respect him sticking to his guns... but he's not footing the bill for the show and who knows if anyone will show up to see the andre ward show, starring andre ward, directed by andre ward, produced by andre ward... if and when it makes an appearance again.

Its an interesting crossroads between the 3 philosophies on wording an opinion...

Andre ward's: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me.."

The fans: "Actions speak louder than words...."

The networks: "Money Talks and Bull$h*t walks..."

When it comes to who's word is Law... and whose voice is the loudest.. opinions may vary.. but cash is king, unfortunately..

I agree. But people going around shouting Ward is boring has an effect on the numbers that a man produces. Casual people tune in to see guys they hear good things about. Boxing regularly shoots itself in the foot this way. Watch the UFC, all company men shouting excitedly about everything and every one. People that don't know what's going on hear this and assume they are seeing something exciting. In boxing most top guys are labeled as boring because they don't get hit much. That means most top guys don't draw because of the prevailing opinion. So boxing sells UK fighters to the UK, Mexican fighters to Mexicans, Puerto Rican fighters to Puerto Ricans etcetera. The skill aspect is lost in sales and skilled fighters are blamed when in fact the entire process is flawed to not sell what is great about the sport, the sweet science. I like a nice brawl as much as the next guy but we shouldn't actively participate in destroying the best of the best in the court of public opinion then blame them for their lack of popularity. Take Rigo, his own promoter actively destroyed his reputation while he rose to prominence. How was he supposed to sell when his promoter, the man responsible for selling his fights, basically told everyone not to watch?

There are 1000 reasons boxing slides further and further into a niche. Not the least of which is boxing fans and boxing announcers distaste for boxing.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I agree. But people going around shouting Ward is boring has an effect on the numbers that a man produces. Casual people tune in to see guys they hear good things about. Boxing regularly shoots itself in the foot this way. Watch the UFC, all company men shouting excitedly about everything and every one. People that don't know what's going on hear this and assume they are seeing something exciting. In boxing most top guys are labeled as boring because they don't get hit much. That means most top guys don't draw because of the prevailing opinion. So boxing sells UK fighters to the UK, Mexican fighters to Mexicans, Puerto Rican fighters to Puerto Ricans etcetera. The skill aspect is lost in sales and skilled fighters are blamed when in fact the entire process is flawed to not sell what is great about the sport, the sweet science. I like a nice brawl as much as the next guy but we shouldn't actively participate in destroying the best of the best in the court of public opinion then blame them for their lack of popularity. Take Rigo, his own promoter actively destroyed his reputation while he rose to prominence. How was he supposed to sell when his promoter, the man responsible for selling his fights, basically told everyone not to watch?

There are 1000 reasons boxing slides further and further into a niche. Not the least of which is boxing fans and boxing announcers distaste for boxing.

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UFC is fuckin shit and the best fights are a lot more boring than the most boring boxing fights

Who wants to watch 2 men lie on the floor for 15 minutes?

Just my opinion obviously