True or false most pro boxers dont pivot the foot they push off it?

So as a beginner you are taught to pivot the foot to rotate the hips.

Well most pros dont use that from what I can see, most pros do it the other way they push off their foot to get the hips to rotate.

I know someones going to say they are the exact same thing but they are not.

Also when you push off does it matter what direction you push, should you push inthe direction of the punch or in the direction (as best you can) of the hips rotation or do you push up, or does it not matter as long as it gets the hips moving?

You see Tyson doing it this way alot every time he punches he pushes first off the ground theres rarely any pivoting of the foot and if there is it comes AFTER the push off. (NOT FIRST thats the difference)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So as a beginner you are taught to pivot the foot to rotate the hips.

Well most pros dont use that from what I can see, most pros do it the other way they push off their foot to get the hips to rotate.

I know someones going to say they are the exact same thing but they are not.

Also when you push off does it matter what direction you push, should you push inthe direction of the punch or in the direction (as best you can) of the hips rotation or do you push up, or does it not matter as long as it gets the hips moving?

You see Tyson doing it this way alot every time he punches he pushes first off the ground theres rarely any pivoting of the foot and if there is it comes AFTER the push off. (NOT FIRST thats the difference)

---

if the foot and knee dont turn, the hip cant, plus you dont push of, you push down onto the floor its that, that generates force.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So as a beginner you are taught to pivot the foot to rotate the hips.

Well most pros dont use that from what I can see, most pros do it the other way they push off their foot to get the hips to rotate.

I know someones going to say they are the exact same thing but they are not.

Also when you push off does it matter what direction you push, should you push inthe direction of the punch or in the direction (as best you can) of the hips rotation or do you push up, or does it not matter as long as it gets the hips moving?



You see Tyson doing it this way alot every time he punches he pushes first off the ground theres rarely any pivoting of the foot and if there is it comes AFTER the push off. (NOT FIRST thats the difference)

---

if the foot and knee dont turn, the hip cant, plus you dont push of, you push down onto the floor its that, that generates force.

---

Push down, it doesn't have to be in any direction just down you say? Thankyou alot!!

"If the knee doesn't turn the hip cant"

If you try it you will find theres some room for movement before the foot HAS to twist and no you dont have to torque the knee, if you look at alot of pro fighters for many punches their hips move alot but their feet pivot very little often not at all. (Including julian jackson, who has mastered torque)

Lots of martial arts styles move the hips without the foot etc

Infact some people believe not moving the feet is better since theirs no give and you transfer force from the ground to the hip without any slipping (wasting of power at the foot) So it goes straight from the ground to the fist without any "wheel spin" at the foot.

Hip cannot move on its own as i mentioned, in another thread impossible only 6 degrees lateral up or side. Otherwise you would damage the coxxys, thats the reason, so there something else moving below it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Hip cannot move on its own as i mentioned, in another thread impossible only 6 degrees lateral up or side. Otherwise you would damage the coxxys, thats the reason, so there something else moving below it.

---

You're saying that his bunk that if you don't push into the floor and turn or pivot the foot there won't be any power.

The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.

---

What moves us is our environment, in boxing movement comes from the floor our base. Its our job to find the proprioceptive ability to find the balance, to execute movement. That comes from the floor through feel and touch, more touch better feel. What gives you range of motion is the back foot, and thumb.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Hip cannot move on its own as i mentioned, in another thread impossible only 6 degrees lateral up or side. Otherwise you would damage the coxxys, thats the reason, so there something else moving below it.

---

Redirect Notice

What do u you see here?

I see Tyson not moving his feet at all, and still torquing his hips a fair bit and not damaging anything other than his opponents head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.

---

Does the direction of the push matter, should you push towards the hip rotation or up or in the same direction of the punch or does it not matter so long as it gets the hips rotating?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.

---

Does the direction of the push matter, should you push towards the hip rotation or up or in the same direction of the punch or does it not matter so long as it gets the hips rotating?

---

In that clip Tyson gets him walking on to the shot. Even so the knee and foot are turning What turns the shoulder is the opposite shoulder, plus it keeps the weight on the back foot. What happened there the guy gave Tyson his distance and paid for doing it. Oh and you push down, as i said before study your walking movement for drive and when that is lost. There lies the answer, realise where the head is when the front foot lands, then bend the knees.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.

---

Does the direction of the push matter, should you push towards the hip rotation or up or in the same direction of the punch or does it not matter so long as it gets the hips rotating?

---

In that clip Tyson gets him walking on to the shot. Even so the knee and foot are turning What turns the shoulder is the opposite shoulder, plus it keeps the weight on the back foot. What happened there the guy gave Tyson his distance and paid for doing it. Oh and you push down, as i said before study your walking movement for drive and when that is lost. There lies the answer, realise where the head is when the front foot lands, then bend the knees.

---

You said the "foot and knee have to move" so you got it wrong. The foot can stay completely still ;) Hell even the knee can even stay largely still.

Kick boxers punch like this all the time because they dont want to turn the back of their leg out to the side where it is vulnerable to a kick so they aim not to move the foot or the knee or to do it minimally, but they can still get good rotation on their hips. Also pro boxers more often than not dont move the foot much at all. Some martial artists are the similar to the kick boxers except they want stability and balance/defense against trips n throws, so thats why they dont turn the leg out.

What you dont seem to understand is that although everything is connected there is a fair amount of room for movement before the foot or even knee have to turn. ;)

xD

Also I am only a beginner, I presume you've studied this for a long time?

A little longer than you ;D.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scrap

a little longer than you ;d.

---

and yet you get it so badly wrong xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Hip cannot move on its own as i mentioned, in another thread impossible only 6 degrees lateral up or side. Otherwise you would damage the coxxys, thats the reason, so there something else moving below it.

---

Redirect Notice

What do u you see here?

I see Tyson not moving his feet at all, and still torquing his hips a fair bit and nodamaging anything other than his opponents head.

---

Well you can do as you like while remembering that if that punch lacks power people are gonna want to fight you. Its all or nothing!

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/a...s/159589_o.gif


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

Its a mixture of the two. poor demonstration on the bag, nobodys got a head that size. ;D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

Its a mixture of the two. poor demonstration on the bag, nobodys got a head that size. ;D

---

Whats a mix of the two? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.

---

Does the direction of the push matter, should you push towards the hip rotation or up or in the same direction of the punch or does it not matter so long as it gets the hips rotating?

---

The hip rotation and direction of the punch are the same direction.

But you should push into the floor as scrap was saying, in the direction opposite your back foot, which thus moves your body towards that foot.

You're making the common beginner mistake of looking for perfect, static technique in an imperfect, highly dynamic environment. Take the few examples you've posted, in each case the attacking fighting is moving forward so his feet aren't planted, which changes the mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

The push is what actually moves the hips, the pivot gives you range of motion.

---

Does the direction of the push matter, should you push towards the hip rotation or up or in the same direction of the punch or does it not matter so long as it gets the hips rotating?

---

In that clip Tyson gets him walking on to the shot. Even so the knee and foot are turning What turns the shoulder is the opposite shoulder, plus it keeps the weight on the back foot. What happened there the guy gave Tyson his distance and paid for doing it. Oh and you push down, as i said before study your walking movement for drive and when that is lost. There lies the answer, realise where the head is when the front foot lands, then bend the knees.

---

You said the "foot and knee have to move" so you got it wrong. The foot can stay completely still ;) Hell even the knee can even stay largely still.

Kick boxers punch like this all the time because they dont want to turn the back of their leg out to the side where it is vulnerable to a kick so they aim not to move the foot or the knee or to do it minimally, but they can still get good rotation on their hips. Also pro boxers more often than not dont move the foot much at all. Some martial artists are the similar to the kick boxers except they want stability and balance/defense against trips n throws, so thats why they dont turn the leg out.

What you dont seem to understand is that although everything is connected there is a fair amount of room for movement before the foot or even knee have to turn. ;)

xD

Also I am only a beginner, I presume you've studied this for a long time?

---

Something you need to keep in mind is the anatomy of the lower body. Kick boxers by the nature of their sport must develop excellent external rotation at the hip joint, which allows greater turn of the
hips without moving the foot. It thus becomes possible to have a greater range of motion without the pivot, which as I said only exists to provide that range of motion. So if you can achieve that without pivoting, which most pros can on the left hook at least, then you're fine. However as a beginner don't neglect it, and no matter how good you get don't neglect that pivot on your right hand. When you see people do that it's because they aren't driving with the back foot for power, they're leaning and usually have that back foot way behind them. It won't have to turn as far in for a right hook as it does for a straight right due to the different mechanics of those punches, but it definitely needs to turn some for both if we're talking ideal technique. And again, ideal technique is not what you'll typically see in a chaotic environment.

Here are clips of vitaly and his feet are planted while throwing hooks.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng_TcwPDUgo
Wlad left foot is planted while throwing the hook.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pkkMPuTv-k8

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

Its a mixture of the two. poor demonstration on the bag, nobodys got a head that size. ;D

---

Whats a mix of the two? :)

---

Dropping while turning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

Its a mixture of the two. poor demonstration on the bag, nobodys got a head that size. ;D

---

Whats a mix of the two? :)

---

Dropping while turning.

---

Scrap coach said that your style is Jack Dempsey's style over here a good coach like you could make a lot of money teaching drop stepping anywhere from $100-150 per session.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BCBUD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

Its a mixture of the two. poor demonstration on the bag, nobodys got a head that size. ;D

---

Whats a mix of the two? :)

---

Dropping while turning.

---

Scrap coach said that your style is Jack Dempsey's style over here a good coach like you could make a lot of money teaching drop stepping anywhere from $100-150 per session.

---

Got offered the Olympic job in 84 ;D.

I basically havent got a style, I give the fighters one ;D.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogp_y8mPiIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z7EuZS196c. different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BCBUD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

Its a mixture of the two. poor demonstration on the bag, nobodys got a head that size. ;D

---

Whats a mix of the two? :)

---

Dropping while turning.

---

Scrap coach said that your style is Jack Dempsey's style over here a good coach like you could make a lot of money teaching drop stepping anywhere from $100-150 per session.

---

Got offered the Olympic job in 84 ;D.

---

Really that's great! But why didn't you take it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BCBUD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BCBUD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

Its a mixture of the two. poor demonstration on the bag, nobodys got a head that size. ;D

---

Whats a mix of the two? :)

---

Dropping while turning.

---

Scrap coach said that your style is Jack Dempsey's style over here a good coach like you could make a lot of money teaching drop stepping anywhere from $100-150 per session.

---

Got offered the Olympic job in 84 ;D.

---

Really that's great! But why didn't you take it?

---

already had a job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.

---

"the exact same thing"

What an inane start to your trolling argument!

1st of all you are wrong.

They arnt the exact* same thing.

1) The push off version comes from a strong explosive push off/down using the thigh muscles.

2) The twisting foot version while it has some meshing down of the weight before you start, its to a MUCH lesser degree and its more gravity doing the work rather than the thigh muscles pushing off (initially) the force starts mostly from the twist not the push. Infact no pushing down at all is required for this method. So ha!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.

---

Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)

To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)

Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.

Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.

So you are wrong on all accounts.

---

No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.

The only time you won't see any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.

As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.

---

Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)

To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)

Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.

Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.

So you are wrong on all accounts.

---

No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.

The only time you won't see any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.

As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.

---

You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.

You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.

2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.

Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.

Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.

hahahahaha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.

---

Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)

To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)

Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.

Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.

So you are wrong on all accounts.

---

No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.

The only time you won't see any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.

As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.

---

You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.

You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.

2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.

Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.

Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.

hahahahaha

---

If you punch just by twisting the foot you're doing it wrong. You might not think you're pushing, but you are, and the difference in feel has mostly to do with whether or not the weight is moving, and where it's moving to. Either way power's coming from the same place, and realistically it's actually coming from both feet.

It's already been explained that the hip has range of motion, but not much past where the foot is pointing. So you can throw a left hook and turn your hip all the way if that foot's pointed ahead. Can't do the same for a right straight though, you won't get full range of motion. Keep in mind of course that you don't even need full range of motion to have a ton of power. These are pros we're talking.

Hopefully this will help. Stand facing a wall, standing straight both hands locked against the wall feet shoulder wide. Now lock the legs tight so they dont move and try moving the hips, Oh dear. ;D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Hopefully this will help. Stand facing a wall, standing straight both hands locked against the wall feet shoulder wide. Now lock the legs tight so they dont move and try moving the hips, Oh dear. ;D

---

Yeah and about the only thing that would get your hips moving from that position is a kick in the nuts (which you'd get in that stance);D

"I should put the brakes on, Im such a heel " ;D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Hopefully this will help. Stand facing a wall, standing straight both hands locked against the wall feet shoulder wide. Now lock the legs tight so they dont move and try moving the hips, Oh dear. ;D

---

Oh yea thats just the same stance as a boxing stance, durrrr

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.

---

Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)

To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)

Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.

Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.

So you are wrong on all accounts.

---

No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.

The only time you won't see any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.

As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.

---

You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.

You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.

2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.

Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.

Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.

hahahahaha

---

If you punch just by twisting the foot you're doing it wrong. You might not think you're pushing, but you are, and the difference in feel has mostly to do with whether or not the weight is moving, and where it's moving to. Either way power's coming from the same place, and realistically it's actually coming from both feet.

It's already been explained that the hip has range of motion, but not much past where the foot is pointing. So you can throw a left hook and turn your hip all the way if that foot's pointed ahead. Can't do the same for a right straight though, you won't get full range of motion. Keep in mind of course that you don't even need full range of motion to have a ton of power. These are pros we're talking.

---

I like to argue with trolls sometimes but only if what they come back with sounds logical, if its too weak of an argument I loose interest.

The hip has a range of motion that can go quite far almost full lock out without moving the foot you just dont know how to do it obviously neither does the other guy.

Yawn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Hopefully this will help. Stand facing a wall, standing straight both hands locked against the wall feet shoulder wide. Now lock the legs tight so they dont move and try moving the hips, Oh dear. ;D

---

Oh yea thats just the same stance as a boxing stance, durrrr

---

It isnt. Scraps analogy in the exercise was to make you think for yourself, the key to thinking about this is from the ground to your hips that hold a key, ankles too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.

---

Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)

To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)

Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.

Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.

So you are wrong on all accounts.

---

No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.

The only time you won't see any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.

As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.

---

You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.

You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.

2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.

Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.

Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.

hahahahaha

---

If you punch just by twisting the foot you're doing it wrong. You might not think you're pushing, but you are, and the difference in feel has mostly to do with whether or not the weight is moving, and where it's moving to. Either way power's coming from the same place, and realistically it's actually coming from both feet.

It's already been explained that the hip has range of motion, but not much past where the foot is pointing. So you can throw a left hook and turn your hip all the way if that foot's pointed ahead. Can't do the same for a right straight though, you won't get full range of motion. Keep in mind of course that you don't even need full range of motion to have a ton of power. These are pros we're talking.

---

I like to argue with trolls sometimes but only if what they come back with sounds logical, if its too weak of an argument I loose interest.

The hip has a range of motion that can go quite far almost full lock out without moving the foot you just dont know how to do it obviously neither does the other guy.

Yawn

---

If you can my advice is get to the Dr, you have a serious Hip problem. that could paralyze you ;D.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMGWTF

So push down method, is it more powerful or less powerful than the foot twist method?

I prefer the foot twist method and I prefer to use it the way scrap recommends. But alot of pros, like Tyson, Tua, Fraizier, etc etc prefer the push down method.

Which is more powerful which is better?

Heres the push down/ push off 1st method

Redirect Notice


Heres foot twist 1st method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmAFFvdGc_o

---

These methods are the exact same thing. You're getting confused because you're looking at how a beginner is taught technique in a controlled environment then how a pro applies that technique in a dynamic environment, seeing that they aren't identical and trying to figure out why. You said before that the difference is in one the pivot comes before the push, in the other the push comes first. That's not right, in both of them the push comes first. The pivot is emphasized because most beginners won't turn their hips at all without it, and coming up higher on the ball of the foot is an easy way to teach them to transfer weight more easily. Then as the boxer progresses the weight transfer and hip rotation come more naturally, their ROM likely increases and the technique starts to look different, when really it's the same but more refined. The pros still do move their feet and their knees, it's just more subtle and you aren't seeing it.

---

Not true, it is taught to grind a cigarette out, which takes some downwards pressure but not ALOT. (You mesh your weight down here simply by directing gravity onto one leg or the other leg, so the weights there ready to shift before you twist the foot)

To push off requires ALOT of downwards pressure. (you use your powerful thigh muscles to cause ALOT of downward pressure 1st which is something you dont do with the other method, this is the key difference!)

Also some teach not to twist the foot because they believe power is wasted from the slip between the foot and the ground.

Also its not so subtle I dont see it many instances there is 0 movement in the foot by the pros, sometimes there's a little, sometimes there's alot.

So you are wrong on all accounts.

---

No, the pivot method also pushes very hard into the ground IF it's done correctly. Edit: Also, with proper technique it's not predominantly the thigh muscles. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the lower body works, otherwise a technical issue and dysfunction in the way your body moves.

The only time you won't see any pivot at all is when the weight is all the way forward. And that's far from ideal technique, but in the middle of a fight sometimes necessary and when you already have natural power you can get away with it pretty easily.

As scrap has said the hip is very limited in it's ability to rotate past where the foot is pointing. If you have the other guy positioned in that power arc you won't have to pivot very much. Often just a slight raise of the heel is enough. Or you can compromise by leaning. But either way, it's the same technique just with adjustments made. No matter what the push and thus the floor is where the power comes from.

---

You can punch JUST from twisting the foot, 0 push off.

You can punch just from pushing off 0 twist of the foot.

2 different methods, that can also blur. But you are trying to argue that a punch that comes predominantly from a push off is the exact same thing as a punch that comes predominantly from a foot twist.

Your argument regarding fighters not doing it due to it being mid fight is also inane, because they do it the same way on the mits bag etc when theres no pressure.

Some fighters dont twist the foot and still get good hip rotation so scrap was completely wrong on that one.

hahahahaha

---

If you punch just by twisting the foot you're doing it wrong. You might not think you're pushing, but you are, and the difference in feel has mostly to do with whether or not the weight is moving, and where it's moving to. Either way power's coming from the same place, and realistically it's actually coming from both feet.

It's already been explained that the hip has range of motion, but not much past where the foot is pointing. So you can throw a left hook and turn your hip all the way if that foot's pointed ahead. Can't do the same for a right straight though, you won't get full range of motion. Keep in mind of course that you don't even need full range of motion to have a ton of power. These are pros we're talking.

---

I like to argue with trolls sometimes but only if what they come back with sounds logical, if its too weak of an argument I loose interest.

The hip has a range of motion that can go quite far almost full lock out without moving the foot you just dont know how to do it obviously neither does the other guy.

Yawn

---

Can you enlighten me with your beginner wisdom?

No but really, in my posts I've already explained that the hip does have range of motion, it just can't go too much past where the foot points unless at least the knee is coming with it. And that's what you aren't seeing, when the hip is rotating past where it should be due to the foot position it's because the knee is coming along to some degree. Remember there is mobility at the ankle too, especially when it's not weighted. There's even some at the knee (not 100% a pure hinge joint) which allows a little extra rotation while leaving the foot behind. And again, these are pros. They don't need full range of motion to hit hard. Understand all that, then remember I've said from the start the pivot is only for range of motion and this should all make more sense.

Hips have 6 degrees of lateral movement, knees have 3 ankle also has 6. Im sure of that, having long discussions over the years with the guy who invented the protocol for knee surgery.