Who would win? Louis could outbox Foreman, but Louis had a weak chin. If Galento could drop Louis, Foreman could KO him.
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Who would win? Louis could outbox Foreman, but Louis had a weak chin. If Galento could drop Louis, Foreman could KO him.
Foreman has a size, height and reach advantage. He was naturally bigger and probably the biggest power puncher heavyweight champion ever.
Joe would have to avoid the big punches early, as he was vulnerable, but if it went past 4 rounds Joe could slowly batter the wild and cumbersome Foreman. Joe had a beautiful jab and threw crisp straight punches and vicious hooks.
Heart says Joe, head says George who may have caught Joe eventually.
Even if he was able to beat Louis does not make him greater than Joe Louis as his record of the most defences is the best and in his own time he achieved more than big George.
Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight of all time, he would cut Foreman down.
No he is not, he is second to Muhammed Ali, but still do not think he would beat Foreman or even the super heavyweights of today from Lewis, Nose and Vitali. However he is still greater than them for what he acheived in his time period and what was put in front of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Make the case for Ali being greater than Joe Louis. I'll make Joe Louis' case, 25 consecutive successful title defenses (the most ever) and that was with him missing 2 entire years of his prime to serve the United States in WW2, and he accomplished all that while having to basically walk a tight rope in the public eye, no pictures with white women, no smiling, no gloating over opponents, and some other crazy ass "rules" his management and society expected him to live by.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterNo he is not, he is second to Muhammed Ali, but still do not think he would beat Foreman or even the super heavyweights of today from Lewis, Nose and Vitali. However he is still greater than them for what he acheived in his time period and what was put in front of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Joe Louis had power in both hands, he had a hell of a chin, he had fast hands, ACCURATE punches, he was a master of managing distance, 66 wins 52 KO's and he fought anyone and everyone of the era ducking nobody. He could beat damn near anyone put in front of him.
Who the hell is "Nose"?
Ali beat at least 3 great champions in Liston, Frazier and Foreman so had better competition to contend with in his era probably the best era ever. Ali prime was taken away from him as well. Ali was not knocked out and lose his fight as a contender. Ali was not vulnerable early in fights and could not be outboxed by a light heavyweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongMake the case for Ali being greater than Joe Louis. I'll make Joe Louis' case, 25 consecutive successful title defenses (the most ever) and that was with him missing 2 entire years of his prime to serve the United States in WW2, and he accomplished all that while having to basically walk a tight rope in the public eye, no pictures with white women, no smiling, no gloating over opponents, and some other crazy ass "rules" his management and society expected him to live by.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterNo he is not, he is second to Muhammed Ali, but still do not think he would beat Foreman or even the super heavyweights of today from Lewis, Nose and Vitali. However he is still greater than them for what he acheived in his time period and what was put in front of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Joe Louis had power in both hands, he had a hell of a chin, he had fast hands, ACCURATE punches, he was a master of managing distance, 66 wins 52 KO's and he fought anyone and everyone of the era ducking nobody. He could beat damn near anyone put in front of him.
Who the hell is "Nose"?
Nose was automatically correct for Bowe.
Liston was great? He beat Patterson for the belt, beat Patterson in the rematch and then lost the belt never to win it again or compete at the highest level again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Joe Frazier beat Ali in their first match....he was at that point a 1 armed fighter with only a jab and left hook to his arsenal.
George Foreman beat the dog shit out of Frazier and then was immediately beaten by Ali....and what nobody complains about those ropes? :dontknow:
Ali lost the title a few times...Joe Louis lost it once, after holding it from 1937 to 1950 and again from 1942-1944 Joe Louis had 0 title fights so with his 'Bum of The Month Club' he could have had maybe 30 or 40 consecutive successful title defenses.
Riddick Bowe doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with Joe Louis. Riddick Bowe fought 1 great heavyweight ever, held a gigantic size and health advantage over him at the time and still lost one of the 3 fights. Only fight worth a damn he took outside the Golota fights and Golota SHOULD have beaten the shit out of Bowe.
Sure bring up Conn..."could not be outboxed by a light heavyweight"....oh I'm sorry winner by KO Joe Louis.
Joe Louis would be too much for George Foreman, he could box better than George and he had a quicker straighter delivery of his punches. If Ron Lyle could put George on the canvas then you had better believe Joe Louis would have!
Ali is overrated as hell.
If Ali was around Liston may have been champion for a long time.
Joe Frazier beat Ali in their first match because Ali probably took the fight too soon and he won the other 2 fights.
No shame for George Foreman to lose to the greatest, Foreman may have been champion for a long time.
Ali did not lose when he was young, up and coming.
Ali had the perfect style to beat Joe. He would out box him for 12 or 15 rounds and because he was much bigger he could take his punches and probably get the stoppage.
If that's what you think it's what you think....if Ali could get floored by Frazier and rocked by Cooper then if Joe Louis gets Ali in trouble (and you're in trouble with Joe Louis if you're standing in the ring) then I think Joe Louis hammers the piss out of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
besides this is not Ali-Louis this is Foreman-Louis we're talking here Prime vs Prime.
Be a great contrast in composure and self awareness. Louis was a picture of refined punching potency compared to early free swinging Foreman. Definitely not saying Foreman couldn't badly hurt him but see Louis punching in between his many defensive gaps as the storm dissipates down the stretch.
Older Foreman has a better shot....what a battle that would have been!
I could see it going either way, but if I had to put money on it I would go with Louis. Louis showed to have a weaker chin, but he did fight bigger fighters during his day and just exposed their flaws. I think that Louis would have been able to punch through the defense of Foreman and keep him off balance. He could have worn him out too.
Foreman obviously had the power to really hurt Louis so that is always a huge factor. He would make Louis much more hesitant to counter for fear of getting hit with another counter.
Young Foreman would be more formidable but older George was wiser and smarter who gave Holyfield a very hard time. George Foreman's chin is very underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
George always had the power it was just how he managed to deliver it changed...Old Foreman had a great jab and a chopping right cross which could fell a rhinoceros but he was immobile. Young George was very wild and wide with his punches mainly hooks and uppercuts. Those punches are slower than the 1-2 so he could have been beaten to the punch against somebody who threw sharply.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYoung Foreman would be more formidable but older George was wiser and smarter who gave Holyfield a very hard time. George Foreman's chin is very underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
If Young George had the brain of Old George then he would have been the best heavyweight ever.....a George Foreman who was patient and made every punch count would have handled Ali quite easily, it wouldn't have taken him long to put 2 and 2 together and seen that Ali was making him gas out and Ali was fighting in spurts...pawing jab, wait for Ali to come out of his shell and THEN land the crushing right cross.....that would have been goodnight sweetheart.
Young George wasn't dumb, he was just over confident in his natural ability. The way he fought Frazier was perfect.
I am sure Ali was giving as good as he got and was winning the fight against George.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGeorge always had the power it was just how he managed to deliver it changed...Old Foreman had a great jab and a chopping right cross which could fell a rhinoceros but he was immobile. Young George was very wild and wide with his punches mainly hooks and uppercuts. Those punches are slower than the 1-2 so he could have been beaten to the punch against somebody who threw sharply.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYoung Foreman would be more formidable but older George was wiser and smarter who gave Holyfield a very hard time. George Foreman's chin is very underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
If Young George had the brain of Old George then he would have been the best heavyweight ever.....a George Foreman who was patient and made every punch count would have handled Ali quite easily, it wouldn't have taken him long to put 2 and 2 together and seen that Ali was making him gas out and Ali was fighting in spurts...pawing jab, wait for Ali to come out of his shell and THEN land the crushing right cross.....that would have been goodnight sweetheart.
Young George wasn't dumb, he was just over confident in his natural ability. The way he fought Frazier was perfect.
Oh no doubt in their actual fight, Ali fought brilliantly he covered up, used the ropes to take some steam out of the big punches which I am sure still hurt him, but Foreman was loading up on those shots which will gas you, Ali was not loading up on his shots, he was just connecting in multiples rather than throwing 1 at a time and allowing his opponent to prepare for that 1 big one rather than 4-5 sharp punches.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI am sure Ali was giving as good as he got and was winning the fight against George.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGeorge always had the power it was just how he managed to deliver it changed...Old Foreman had a great jab and a chopping right cross which could fell a rhinoceros but he was immobile. Young George was very wild and wide with his punches mainly hooks and uppercuts. Those punches are slower than the 1-2 so he could have been beaten to the punch against somebody who threw sharply.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYoung Foreman would be more formidable but older George was wiser and smarter who gave Holyfield a very hard time. George Foreman's chin is very underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
If Young George had the brain of Old George then he would have been the best heavyweight ever.....a George Foreman who was patient and made every punch count would have handled Ali quite easily, it wouldn't have taken him long to put 2 and 2 together and seen that Ali was making him gas out and Ali was fighting in spurts...pawing jab, wait for Ali to come out of his shell and THEN land the crushing right cross.....that would have been goodnight sweetheart.
Young George wasn't dumb, he was just over confident in his natural ability. The way he fought Frazier was perfect.
True genius and great. Never overrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOh no doubt in their actual fight, Ali fought brilliantly he covered up, used the ropes to take some steam out of the big punches which I am sure still hurt him, but Foreman was loading up on those shots which will gas you, Ali was not loading up on his shots, he was just connecting in multiples rather than throwing 1 at a time and allowing his opponent to prepare for that 1 big one rather than 4-5 sharp punches.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI am sure Ali was giving as good as he got and was winning the fight against George.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGeorge always had the power it was just how he managed to deliver it changed...Old Foreman had a great jab and a chopping right cross which could fell a rhinoceros but he was immobile. Young George was very wild and wide with his punches mainly hooks and uppercuts. Those punches are slower than the 1-2 so he could have been beaten to the punch against somebody who threw sharply.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYoung Foreman would be more formidable but older George was wiser and smarter who gave Holyfield a very hard time. George Foreman's chin is very underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
If Young George had the brain of Old George then he would have been the best heavyweight ever.....a George Foreman who was patient and made every punch count would have handled Ali quite easily, it wouldn't have taken him long to put 2 and 2 together and seen that Ali was making him gas out and Ali was fighting in spurts...pawing jab, wait for Ali to come out of his shell and THEN land the crushing right cross.....that would have been goodnight sweetheart.
Young George wasn't dumb, he was just over confident in his natural ability. The way he fought Frazier was perfect.
No he is/was most certainly overrated...if Marciano or Louis had Ali's mouth (were Joe Louis ALLOWED to speak like that) then I'm thinking you'd have a change of heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ali was always "I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest"....Marciano and Louis were quiet humble guys, no flashy flash about them at all, they just stepped in the ring, did a job, and when it was over they acted like regular people whereas Ali was selling everyone on Ali.
Just because he opposed the Vietnam War and hung out with the Nation of Islam doesn't mean he's the greatest boxer ever...it means he took a political and social stance and was given the time and air to keep up with his "I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest" chest beating 24/7/365.
I never mention what he said or what he did outside the ring as reasons for him being the best heavyweight ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongNo he is/was most certainly overrated...if Marciano or Louis had Ali's mouth (were Joe Louis ALLOWED to speak like that) then I'm thinking you'd have a change of heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ali was always "I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest"....Marciano and Louis were quiet humble guys, no flashy flash about them at all, they just stepped in the ring, did a job, and when it was over they acted like regular people whereas Ali was selling everyone on Ali.
Just because he opposed the Vietnam War and hung out with the Nation of Islam doesn't mean he's the greatest boxer ever...it means he took a political and social stance and was given the time and air to keep up with his "I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest" chest beating 24/7/365.
His boxing record and what he accomplished in the ring against the opponent's he faced speaks for itself.
It's still a factor...do you think for one second that Ali would be called the greatest if he wasn't as animated as he was or political as he was? He was a cult of personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
And what Joe Louis accomplished in the ring speaks for itself, it had to, because Joe wasn't allowed to pump himself up at all. 25 successful title defenses in a row....25.....at a certain point it doesn't matter who you are fighting the shear amount of the people you've fought and beaten is impressive and yet nobody seems to accept that at all. Imagine it, Mike Tyson youngest ever heavyweight champion....everyone had to figure, "Well if there's a guy who could break Louis' record, if there's a guy who looks unbeatable for decades to come it's Tyson".....he couldn't do it and not even couldn't do it, he didn't even come close.
Larry Holmes had a great era to accomplish things better than Louis, he had all his prime, none of it taken away by prison or court rulings or war and he couldn't do it.
Joe Louis beat everyone in his era and a few folks coming into his era who were a lot younger than him...it's impressive, it's STATISTICALLY the best heavyweight title reign ergo he's the best heavyweight champion, EVER. 25 in a row, meanwhile Ali won the title what 3 times meaning he had to lose it a few times and win it back, which hey, it's great he could rebound like that Holyfield did that as well.
Again this is Louis vs Foreman.
I'm not a fan of Ali, he was a great boxer, but yes he's overrated due to his own self promotion....Joe Louis wasn't allowed to say he was the best, but at the end of the day he didn't have to say he's the best, his record says he's the best ergo he's the best.
25 defences is a great achievement and no one can take that away from him and even if he ranted and raved he would still be 2nd in my book.
If we're comparing careers between Ali and Louis, it's hard to say because they both had defining victories in their illustrious careers. Ali's wins over Liston, Frazier, and Foreman can never be discounted nor taken away from him. One thing I do hold against him though, is how he managed to lose to the likes of Leon Spinks. Leon Spinks!!!! That he won the title back after that is irrevelant. How the f*** do you lose to a Leon Spinks? I give Ali credit for coming back and reinventing himself after his hiatus, going from a perpetual motion machine to setting down a little more on his punches. Ali wasn't the devastating puncher Louis was because he rarely committed his body entirely to the punch. So it's hard to say. Both were dominant in their eras. Both fought and beat feared fighters.
Yeah and I get that, I do....you're rating Ali's competition higher than Louis' and that's fine but I just see it differently and that too is fine. 25 consecutive successful title defenses is a tangible, measurable record....if Ali was dropped in Louis' era could he have accomplished that? We can guess but we'll never know. We DO know however Ali couldn't match the accomplishment in his own era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
We also know that Ali did not get knocked out and lose whilst he was young and up and coming fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah and I get that, I do....you're rating Ali's competition higher than Louis' and that's fine but I just see it differently and that too is fine. 25 consecutive successful title defenses is a tangible, measurable record....if Ali was dropped in Louis' era could he have accomplished that? We can guess but we'll never know. We DO know however Ali couldn't match the accomplishment in his own era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Because his trainer cut his glove to buy time....but sureQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterWe also know that Ali did not get knocked out and lose whilst he was young and up and coming fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah and I get that, I do....you're rating Ali's competition higher than Louis' and that's fine but I just see it differently and that too is fine. 25 consecutive successful title defenses is a tangible, measurable record....if Ali was dropped in Louis' era could he have accomplished that? We can guess but we'll never know. We DO know however Ali couldn't match the accomplishment in his own era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Glove was cut any way and it would not have made any difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongBecause his trainer cut his glove to buy time....but sureQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterWe also know that Ali did not get knocked out and lose whilst he was young and up and coming fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah and I get that, I do....you're rating Ali's competition higher than Louis' and that's fine but I just see it differently and that too is fine. 25 consecutive successful title defenses is a tangible, measurable record....if Ali was dropped in Louis' era could he have accomplished that? We can guess but we'll never know. We DO know however Ali couldn't match the accomplishment in his own era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Sure thing, whatever makes you happy @Master :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterGlove was cut any way and it would not have made any difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongBecause his trainer cut his glove to buy time....but sureQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterWe also know that Ali did not get knocked out and lose whilst he was young and up and coming fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah and I get that, I do....you're rating Ali's competition higher than Louis' and that's fine but I just see it differently and that too is fine. 25 consecutive successful title defenses is a tangible, measurable record....if Ali was dropped in Louis' era could he have accomplished that? We can guess but we'll never know. We DO know however Ali couldn't match the accomplishment in his own era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I guess one of these days I'll learn to keep my view to myself :shakehead:
I respect your views and I love Joe. Hurts me to point out his weaknesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongSure thing, whatever makes you happy @Master :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterGlove was cut any way and it would not have made any difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongBecause his trainer cut his glove to buy time....but sureQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterWe also know that Ali did not get knocked out and lose whilst he was young and up and coming fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah and I get that, I do....you're rating Ali's competition higher than Louis' and that's fine but I just see it differently and that too is fine. 25 consecutive successful title defenses is a tangible, measurable record....if Ali was dropped in Louis' era could he have accomplished that? We can guess but we'll never know. We DO know however Ali couldn't match the accomplishment in his own era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I guess one of these days I'll learn to keep my view to myself :shakehead:
:-X :shrug03: :-XQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterI respect your views and I love Joe. Hurts me to point out his weaknesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongSure thing, whatever makes you happy @Master :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterGlove was cut any way and it would not have made any difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongBecause his trainer cut his glove to buy time....but sureQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterWe also know that Ali did not get knocked out and lose whilst he was young and up and coming fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah and I get that, I do....you're rating Ali's competition higher than Louis' and that's fine but I just see it differently and that too is fine. 25 consecutive successful title defenses is a tangible, measurable record....if Ali was dropped in Louis' era could he have accomplished that? We can guess but we'll never know. We DO know however Ali couldn't match the accomplishment in his own era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I guess one of these days I'll learn to keep my view to myself :shakehead:
Nobody knocks out "'anvil chin"' george foreman
My video shows exactly how Joe and his era fought. In that video, does that version of Joe look like he or anybody else would land anything on foreman or people he fought?https://youtu.be/a27vtfAuSyI?si=BGAirVUy_WdqMjjd
he and guys from his time look like novices compared side by side to no names Foreman fought, and in no way does anyone from that era look like they would last 1 round vs. guys in the 70s-'90s so why did clearly not sane people say louis wins?