Undefeated: The Big Zero?
How important and relevant has it been in modern boxing to retain that Zero? Is it that important in selling a fighter or has it actually turned a lot of people off watching more evenly matched or challenging opponents dismissed in favour of more predictable outcomes?
Interesting example of how the argument is often misrepresented here
https://www.boxingnewsandviews.com/2...modern-boxing/
In it the author argues that in facing Ortiz and Fury, Wilder faced two of the toughest opponents in boxing. This for the writer, and many who follow boxing ( including the casuals or noobs etc) represents an example of Wilder as now having faced more dangerous opponents than Joshua. Has he really though? An old medication reliant Ortiz and Fury looking far from impressive in his long comeback from inactivity and being overweight. Fury was never going to be a big risk one punch wise and will now be held up as a dangerous opponent again in the rematch.
I don't want to just focus on Wilder and the article but it highlights how the whole debate is often discussed with any real ideas of objectivity thrown out of the window.
Not even going to mention Floyd right now but he can't really be avoided in any meaningful discussion of the big zero.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Rocky Marciano probably started it and Floyd took it to that extra obnoxious level that made him a fortune out of it.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Outside of being the unified belt holding champion- WBO, WBA, IBF and WBC- the biggest draw in boxing is being an undefeated fighter with 25 plus wins. Regardless of the ko percentage. But the wins must be somewhat substantive and well worth it.
I'd say an undefeated champion is the top draw.
Outside of that you have to have such a broad based appeal that people want to spend money to see you win or lose... Like Manny Pacqioua, who is a RARE case indeed.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Yes the zero adds an edge for me as they get in the 20 plus wins bracket.
I can disregard close point decision losses too. Get kayoed though and that changes things
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Julio Ceaser Chavez zero was legendary and fans wanted to see him get to 100 wins desperately.
It got the the stage where one week he was fighting the best fighter in the world and the following match against the worst just so he could edge closer to that magic number.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Apart from Joe Calzaghe who is the only other british world champion to retire undefeated?
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
To me it depends totally on how you've achieved your Big Zero.
If you've gone about your career without perceptibly ducking anybody and happen to finish undefeated....... more power to you.
If you, however, have picked-and-chosen.... carefully picking your way through your career.... preying on smaller, older, more inferior opposition, while ducking or letting big fights "marinate"..... then your Zero is worth squat.
Mexican Ricardo "Finito" Lopez was a great example of the former. He finished undefeated, and took on all comers during his career.
Mexican Saul "Ginger" Alvarez is on the opposite end of the spectrum. His Zero ain't worth shit. He's also a previously suspended cheater and weight manipulator to boot.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nuggetdotcom
Apart from Joe Calzaghe who is the only other british world champion to retire undefeated?
Terry Marsh although he did draw one fight with Lloyd Christie.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
I personally think there is too much focus on undefeated records. To me it's more about who you are fighting and how you are performing.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
I personally think there is too much focus on undefeated records. To me it's more about who you are fighting and how you are performing.
Agreed. It definitely helps, but absolutely nobody has all easy fights. You will have a bad day or a bad style match up. The tougher your competition, the more likely you will be to lose. To real boxing fans, a loss isn’t a huge deal as long as you come back from it.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
an "0" is something that is protected and used as a negotiating chip to get up the ladder and get a shot . There's much less chance now of losing a few early fights and getting back in contention, mainly because guys don't fight as often, hence less opportunities to set the record straight.
When the Boxer arrives at the top table and gets his chance, people can then see his true worth and the "0" will be less relevant and it'll be about how he fares.
Once they get to the top level, a loss isn't the end of the World because they'll get a chance to redeem themselves.
This is why almost all of the perceived ATG's have a loss on their record .
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Look at guys like Farmer or Salido, their records started of terribly. But they learned their trade and reached the world level.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Look at guys like Farmer or Salido, their records started of terribly. But they learned their trade and reached the world level.
These are exceptions rather than the norm. Salido has taken a long road to get back over a much longer period of time than most Boxers careers.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Look at guys like Farmer or Salido, their records started of terribly. But they learned their trade and reached the world level.
These are exceptions rather than the norm. Salido has taken a long road to get back over a much longer period of time than most Boxers careers.
Agree, just trying to point out that loses don't mean you can't fight.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Look at guys like Farmer or Salido, their records started of terribly. But they learned their trade and reached the world level.
These are exceptions rather than the norm. Salido has taken a long road to get back over a much longer period of time than most Boxers careers.
Agree, just trying to point out that loses don't mean you can't fight.
In terms of both statistics and basic common sense you are both right. Unfortunately the 'o' nowadays means friendly matchmaking, promoters influencing/appointing judges, graft to and from sanctioning bodies etc. Deontay fucking Wilder as a classic example.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nuggetdotcom
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Look at guys like Farmer or Salido, their records started of terribly. But they learned their trade and reached the world level.
These are exceptions rather than the norm. Salido has taken a long road to get back over a much longer period of time than most Boxers careers.
Agree, just trying to point out that loses don't mean you can't fight.
In terms of both statistics and basic common sense you are both right. Unfortunately the 'o' nowadays means friendly matchmaking, promoters influencing/appointing judges, graft to and from sanctioning bodies etc. Deontay fucking Wilder as a classic example.
It is definitely used as a tool I guess by promoters, as are belts, fake beefs etc to increase sales.
Who was that Danish heavyweight (Neilson I think) that was like 40 something and 0.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
A parallel can be made with some team sports. If anyone follows college football here, you'll know what I'm talking about. Every year some XYZ University will finish undefeated and fans will try and stake a claim to being #1. Unfortunately, some of these teams fatten up on totally inferior competition, sometimes driven by the conference they're in. If you spend your entire season beating up on the North Dakota Universities of the world, your zero actually doesn't mean much.
Re: Undefeated: The Big Zero?
When we talk about the '0' we're talking about the big time Charlie who's an amateur star, promoted up to the hilt and in our faces from day dot, especially now right?
In that scenario the 0 is absolutely important. Selling a fighter aside, no one wants to get their man beaten early doors, get him pushed no doubt, but beaten. There has to be something worth being beaten for.
As already mentioned there is a shelf life to this 0 lark and a point at which it has to become a case of how good you are rather than how well you've been matched.
